Ok lets just square something away. These are kids being dealt with by powerful, rich, authoritarian men. During this era they were all around 15-18 years old a lot of them. When does the issue becoming the grooming they were put through? Life was so damn good, who even introduced him to matchfixing? If you were an upcoming Bonjwa, how did these players have access to this seedier side of Kespa, Match Fixing, an the nature of Illegal betting in South Korea. Everything feels metaphorically at knife point with dealings regarding everything Sc2 related. Never forget, Life was just a kid, who spent a good number of those formative years, in a team house, 24/7, surrounded by men who groomed them all. How many times do you think they stroked Life's ego, look at all this money! Look at all this money you can make, you can live that high life! How many times do you think they have threatened their players with something legal? Throughout all the years of Starcraft in South Korea? Something, anything? Where is the reponsibility? The culpability? The admittance, that we are exiling them, for what? For whom?
It is indeed a mystery how he got into the dark side, right? especially the one who were upcoming bonjwa and a star player? You say he was at young age and there were the ones who would only manipulate the guys like him but teams doesn't work like that. Sure he struggled in Federation Teams, but no matter how shitty it was at least many teams had a code of conduct. They wouldn't want another fucking nightmare after it all happened years prior. The source being PRIME was no mystery there, because they didn't have any experience towards it besides the problem of THE MANAGER BEING ONE OF THE BROKERS. Funny how they all suffered from the previous matchfixing scandal and all the nightmare and he still didn't learn. They had previous precedent to prevent all that stuff from happening.
Let me tell you one thing, being young age and forced to do something illegal doesn't mean you can be forgiven. When same thing happened in ahq Korea in the LCK back in 2014, Promise exposed the owner and committed suicide. Sucks he became sexual predator after he survived that though. Not everyone reacts the same, and especially when you have the spotlight you should also know how to bear the weigh of it. Faker, for example, he had a lot of spotlight as well since his appearance, and considering ahq Korea's incident coincides with his debut (his debut was 2013). We can fairly say he debuted on the wild west. I can tell you also, T1 back then in LCK wasn't in the position like today. If that's your take, Faker should've fallen into that temptation long ago, but he didn't and turned out to be the greatest gamer in the history of League, and further the No.1 eSports player IN THE WORLD. Nobody said it would be easy. But be that as it may, you cannot JUSTIFY the act. For what they ban Life? For what they ban Savior? For what they ban all the matchfixers known into the system? To show it as a fact, that you CANNOT come back from those crimes and thus is to prevent further things to happen.
SC2 is now a community-driven. And that's why it is more vulnerable for things like that. How can you watch over all of that happening even when we didn't prevent on the KeSPA managed era?
As a host and KR community commentator I often see the demographics on my casting stream, and when I see it I find some of the origin as illegal betting sites. They infiltrate even on the community streams like myself, so how can you guarantee they won't commit again after all that?
Please, knock it off. As much as I would like to see more people playing SC2 competitively, there's still a line. And if you would ask CranK about this matter, you will get immediately banned for it, because I can tell you, he experienced all the aftermath of the matchfixing scandal firsthand, and he knows how hard it is to be inside of that shitstorm when he was barely 20. Koreans know how painful it was as a fan to see all that suffering from other guys who didn't even commit getting audited, all that crap, because some of the people did it. It is the deep trauma still lives on until this day. So I can definitely say the exile is indeed for all the Korean SC2 fans who truly loves the game and still watch eSports.
THIS. Westerners really tend not to get this. Life wasn't just a matchfixer. He was a thief who stole money from players and undermined the entire Korean sc2 scene. He broke laws and irreversibly damaged StarCraft II in Korea. Westerners can insert their own opinions, but they are almost always out of touch with the Korean perspective. (also there are a lot of stories about life gambling overseas and exhibiting behavior that would not be acceptable in Korea). Talk to Crank, soO, whoever, Life fucked them all over and should not have the ability to play again. His served his sentence and should be able to live what ever life he wants, but it should not involve progaming. The bridge is burnt.
The Korean Sc2 scene doesn't even exist anymore. You all live within a very tight bubble in your mind of rationality with no leniency, humanity, or sanity. The scenes are way way bigger outside of Korea by orders of magnitude, silly stuff I swear. Almost every response is so luke warm its crazy, no one is putting any thought or support into their arguments that stretch past anything that makes any sense to me anymore. Off in left field giving creedance to people you shouldnt, sponsors you shouldnt, companies you shouldn't, serving ideologies you shouldn't. You all side with the legit racketeers, you literally never address them at all, no one is, what in the world is going on? Who's paying you? You will literally go after Life tooth and nail, put him on this pedestal and denounce him, and ignore, the years and years of illegal rackeetering, preceding him and continues till this day. Some Holier Than Thou' bull, legit, Whos kidding who eh? Scapegoat.
On November 07 2023 18:38 SupremeMaddox wrote: I don't get why it just comes back up. It's so fucking exhausting every time I see this.
First of all, the reason why 'Life" is hated as a matchfixer is because he was "THAT TALENTED". He could've been another Zerg bonjwa and made another history. It's totally his own fault who blew it, and not only that the shock got an extra kick because of the symbolic position he was as one of the Star Players. This is the main reason why people hate and don't want to even mention it. They're hurt as much as they loved him. He didn't even had an sincere apology to the fans. EVER. Fans were much more hurt because they had one notorious precedence in Brood War, (who was also coincidentally playing Zerg) and they had to relive all the horror and nightmare again this time. Yes, time flew and it's been over 7 years after that happened but hey, you know what?
WE'RE STILL BANNING SAVIOR in ASL. How crazy is that for you, huh?
Speaking of PRIME, yeah it's a fact that there were many great Terrans came out of it, but that same coach was the one who served as a broker for matchfixing. He even stole players' salary for use of his own. YoDa? also a match fixer. so as Bbyong, BBoongBBoong. Why don't we just forgive and forget every single one of them to come back and see how that pans out, huh? Why he should be the only exception? I still believe that there are good in people and I try to believe it, but sometimes, some people just don't change. Especially for those who committed actual crime. And I also don't want to see another case of "I told you so".
I hope I don't want to mention this ever again.
Ok lets just square something away. These are kids being dealt with by powerful, rich, authoritarian men. During this era they were all around 15-18 years old a lot of them. When does the issue becoming the grooming they were put through? Life was so damn good, who even introduced him to matchfixing? If you were an upcoming Bonjwa, how did these players have access to this seedier side of Kespa, Match Fixing, an the nature of Illegal betting in South Korea. Everything feels metaphorically at knife point with dealings regarding everything Sc2 related. Never forget, Life was just a kid, who spent a good number of those formative years, in a team house, 24/7, surrounded by men who groomed them all. How many times do you think they stroked Life's ego, look at all this money! Look at all this money you can make, you can live that high life! How many times do you think they have threatened their players with something legal? Throughout all the years of Starcraft in South Korea? Something, anything? Where is the reponsibility? The culpability? The admittance, that we are exiling them, for what? For whom?
Funny...first we should all forgive Gerrad (Headcoach of Prime), now you accuse him of grooming...so basically "forgive Life and the rest, but if we need to through all of them for Life under the bus, lets do that"?
Furthermore: Every single star-player on the planet in any commercially succesful sport is being "groomed". I live in a country that is highly dominated by Football/Soccer and let me tell you, for a long time football clubs in Europe did a terrible job keeping their players ego in check. It is how you say it is: Everyone pats you on the back, everyone tells you that YOU are the center of the universe...and yet, when they break the law, when they violate the rules or when they dope, no one in their right mind says "nah, forgive them, they are kids". They are fucking millionaires, this is a JOB. Act like it you fuckwit.
THIS. Westerners really tend not to get this. Life wasn't just a matchfixer. He was a thief who stole money from players and undermined the entire Korean sc2 scene. He broke laws and irreversibly damaged StarCraft II in Korea. Westerners can insert their own opinions, but they are almost always out of touch with the Korean perspective. (also there are a lot of stories about life gambling overseas and exhibiting behavior that would not be acceptable in Korea). Talk to Crank, soO, whoever, Life fucked them all over and should not have the ability to play again. His served his sentence and should be able to live what ever life he wants, but it should not involve progaming. The bridge is burnt.
True, I can't understand how the korean scene works from the inside. But I will assure you, I get the general concept. You are probably not familiar with the name "Robert Hoyzer". He was a german referee in the german Football-Bundesliga. At the start of the millenium, he matchfixed some games for a laughable amount of money, one rather high profile one. This was one the biggest scandals in german football history and right before the World Cup in Germany aswell. The damage could have been catastrophic. One coach lost his job because his team lost one of those fixed games and basically never got up again. So while I do not get Korea, I really get the concept - so believe me, I'm as pissed at Life as anyone should be for the damages he caused.
The Korean Sc2 scene doesn't even exist anymore. You all live within a very tight bubble in your mind of rationality with no leniency, humanity, or sanity. The scenes are way way bigger outside of Korea by orders of magnitude, silly stuff I swear. Almost every response is so luke warm its crazy, no one is putting any thought or support into their arguments that stretch past anything that makes any sense to me anymore. Off in left field giving creedance to people you shouldnt, sponsors you shouldnt, companies you shouldn't, serving ideologies you shouldn't. You all side with the legit racketeers, you literally never address them at all, no one is, what in the world is going on? Who's paying you? You will literally go after Life tooth and nail, put him on this pedestal and denounce him, and ignore, the years and years of illegal rackeetering, preceding him and continues till this day. Some Holier Than Thou' bull, legit, Whos kidding who eh? Scapegoat.
The only one giving "lukewarm answers" is you. You just ramble on, while everyone else gives you clear facts and arguments. You are basically sitting there like "yeah but...Life back plx?"
The Korean Sc2 scene doesn't even exist anymore. You all live within a very tight bubble in your mind of rationality with no leniency, humanity, or sanity. The scenes are way way bigger outside of Korea by orders of magnitude, silly stuff I swear. Almost every response is so luke warm its crazy, no one is putting any thought or support into their arguments that stretch past anything that makes any sense to me anymore. Off in left field giving creedance to people you shouldnt, sponsors you shouldnt, companies you shouldn't, serving ideologies you shouldn't. You all side with the legit racketeers, you literally never address them at all, no one is, what in the world is going on? Who's paying you? You will literally go after Life tooth and nail, put him on this pedestal and denounce him, and ignore, the years and years of illegal rackeetering, preceding him and continues till this day. Some Holier Than Thou' bull, legit, Whos kidding who eh? Scapegoat.
Lmao. This shit just now came into another level. If KR scene doesn't exist, how come ESL Pro Tour has still "Korea" region to Katowice, and still have THE MOST SPOT from all region? Yes, we have dwindled, and yes, we're dying. But there are still majority of players in WTL, 2 Korean Teams still exists, and hell, GSL is still alive and kickin'. Jokes on you. Now you're insulting players who still competes with passion on this game. We survived from the haters from Day one of this game, and we'll also survive from you as well.
The Korean Sc2 scene doesn't even exist anymore. You all live within a very tight bubble in your mind of rationality with no leniency, humanity, or sanity. The scenes are way way bigger outside of Korea by orders of magnitude, silly stuff I swear. Almost every response is so luke warm its crazy, no one is putting any thought or support into their arguments that stretch past anything that makes any sense to me anymore. Off in left field giving creedance to people you shouldnt, sponsors you shouldnt, companies you shouldn't, serving ideologies you shouldn't. You all side with the legit racketeers, you literally never address them at all, no one is, what in the world is going on? Who's paying you? You will literally go after Life tooth and nail, put him on this pedestal and denounce him, and ignore, the years and years of illegal rackeetering, preceding him and continues till this day. Some Holier Than Thou' bull, legit, Whos kidding who eh? Scapegoat.
Lmao. This shit just now came into another level. If KR scene doesn't exist, how come ESL Pro Tour has still "Korea" region to Katowice, and still have THE MOST SPOT from all region? Yes, we have dwindled, and yes, we're dying. But there are still majority of players in WTL, 2 Korean Teams still exists, and hell, GSL is still alive and kickin'. Jokes on you. Now you're insulting players who still competes with passion on this game. We survived from the haters from Day one of this game, and we'll also survive from you as well.
Now go back to wherever you came from.
I don't know what world you are actually living in. Blizzcon is gone, Kespa/Proleague is gone, Sc2, GSL? In Korea? it's on Life support. You know why? Foreigners tune in, to the measure of a couple K viewership. Extract enough AD revenue and they barely spend any money on production, there is a small but communal effor to keep it alive, make no mistake. Excuse me, they are few, we are many. Korea does not rule Sc2, it never will, remove the monolith of their power of decision making in the Sc2 community. We have been abandoned good sir, explain to me in detail how we are not? It IS, the communities game now, and it's about high time we claim that right at this point.
I don't know what world you are actually living in. Blizzcon is gone, Kespa/Proleague is gone, Sc2, GSL? In Korea? it's on Life support. You know why? Foreigners tune in, to the measure of a couple K viewership. Extract enough AD revenue and they barely spend any money on production, there is a small but communal effor to keep it alive, make no mistake. Excuse me, they are few, we are many. Korea does not rule Sc2, it never will, remove the monolith of their power of decision making in the Sc2 community. We have been abandoned good sir, explain to me in detail how we are not? It IS, the communities game now, and it's about high time we claim that right at this point.
Please enlighten me how come freeing Life is related to "claiming the right". Isn't he Korean? What, is he suddenly now NOT KR player? You now saying KR scene is dead, more reason not to be back even if he's allowed to. How do you expect him to be back when there is no scene? You're rambling shit that doesn't even add up and trying to justify your claim. Typical BS as usual. All you're doing is insult, not just players but also the fans who has endured that tough times, and guys like you are the ones who tries to undermine that.
I don't know what world you are actually living in. Blizzcon is gone, Kespa/Proleague is gone, Sc2, GSL? In Korea? it's on Life support. You know why? Foreigners tune in, to the measure of a couple K viewership. Extract enough AD revenue and they barely spend any money on production, there is a small but communal effor to keep it alive, make no mistake. Excuse me, they are few, we are many. Korea does not rule Sc2, it never will, remove the monolith of their power of decision making in the Sc2 community. We have been abandoned good sir, explain to me in detail how we are not? It IS, the communities game now, and it's about high time we claim that right at this point.
Please enlighten me how come freeing Life is related to "claiming the right". Isn't he Korean? What, is he suddenly now NOT KR player? You now saying KR scene is dead, more reason not to be back even if he's allowed to. How do you expect him to be back when there is no scene? You're rambling shit that doesn't even add up and trying to justify your claim. Typical BS as usual. All you're doing is insult, not just players but also the fans who has endured that tough times, and guys like you are the ones who tries to undermine that.
You are way out of it, no offense. "Claiming The Right" is me signalling to the ENTIRE COMMUNITY, not on this topic alone, that this is now the communities game. Life can go where he pleases, play on ANY REGION HE PLEASES, and if he wants to compete in an EU or NA tournament? Then I say F U to any Korean influence on that decision. Ya heard? Now, this is also a plea, to every single Pro and Semi-pro that has an opinion on the matter. Their influence is what i am most concerned about, embrace his potential return, if he desires it even in the first place. Why wouldn't you want to Spar with an increasingly inform Life? Don't you want to be challenged? Pushed to your utmost potential? Wouldn't Serral, in his heart of hearts, want to play against a perfectly in-form "Life"? Makes no sense to me at all. The savage in Serral & Reynor, would salivate at the chance, they should at the very least. I think it would be the dream of any pro come to think of it. He is that respected, he is that revered, he is that feared. He inspires terror, because you just never know, when those lings will come. And boy, I assure you, they always do, when you least expect it.
You are way out of it, no offense. "Claiming The Right" is me signalling to the ENTIRE COMMUNITY, not on this topic alone, that this is now the communities game. Life can go where he pleases, play on ANY REGION HE PLEASES, and if he wants to compete in an EU or NA tournament? Then I say F U to any Korean influence on that decision. Ya heard?
Well, Good luck with that. But I can surely tell you no Korean gamers or fans would support or even care.
He could have played everywhere he wanted as long as it was not a WCS/Blizzard/ESL sponsored/partnered event (or korean ofc). You throw around a lot of big ideas, but completly fail to understand the basic of his ban. That all of this does "not make sense" to you tells more about you than his ban tbh...
And why the F are you talking about his "potential return"? Guy has literally vanished for 8-9 years.
On November 07 2023 18:38 SupremeMaddox wrote: I don't get why it just comes back up. It's so fucking exhausting every time I see this.
First of all, the reason why 'Life" is hated as a matchfixer is because he was "THAT TALENTED". He could've been another Zerg bonjwa and made another history. It's totally his own fault who blew it, and not only that the shock got an extra kick because of the symbolic position he was as one of the Star Players. This is the main reason why people hate and don't want to even mention it. They're hurt as much as they loved him. He didn't even had an sincere apology to the fans. EVER. Fans were much more hurt because they had one notorious precedence in Brood War, (who was also coincidentally playing Zerg) and they had to relive all the horror and nightmare again this time. Yes, time flew and it's been over 7 years after that happened but hey, you know what?
WE'RE STILL BANNING SAVIOR in ASL. How crazy is that for you, huh?
Speaking of PRIME, yeah it's a fact that there were many great Terrans came out of it, but that same coach was the one who served as a broker for matchfixing. He even stole players' salary for use of his own. YoDa? also a match fixer. so as Bbyong, BBoongBBoong. Why don't we just forgive and forget every single one of them to come back and see how that pans out, huh? Why he should be the only exception? I still believe that there are good in people and I try to believe it, but sometimes, some people just don't change. Especially for those who committed actual crime. And I also don't want to see another case of "I told you so".
I hope I don't want to mention this ever again.
Ok lets just square something away. These are kids being dealt with by powerful, rich, authoritarian men. During this era they were all around 15-18 years old a lot of them. When does the issue becoming the grooming they were put through? Life was so damn good, who even introduced him to matchfixing? If you were an upcoming Bonjwa, how did these players have access to this seedier side of Kespa, Match Fixing, an the nature of Illegal betting in South Korea. Everything feels metaphorically at knife point with dealings regarding everything Sc2 related. Never forget, Life was just a kid, who spent a good number of those formative years, in a team house, 24/7, surrounded by men who groomed them all. How many times do you think they stroked Life's ego, look at all this money! Look at all this money you can make, you can live that high life! How many times do you think they have threatened their players with something legal? Throughout all the years of Starcraft in South Korea? Something, anything? Where is the reponsibility? The culpability? The admittance, that we are exiling them, for what? For whom?
This is true. Looking back at the SC2 team houses and they look like a sweat shop. I never realized they were that bad. Always thought it was similar to what I saw the team houses for CS:GO and LoL.
Ok lets just square something away. These are kids being dealt with by powerful, rich, authoritarian men. During this era they were all around 15-18 years old a lot of them. When does the issue becoming the grooming they were put through? Life was so damn good, who even introduced him to matchfixing? If you were an upcoming Bonjwa, how did these players have access to this seedier side of Kespa, Match Fixing, an the nature of Illegal betting in South Korea. Everything feels metaphorically at knife point with dealings regarding everything Sc2 related. Never forget, Life was just a kid, who spent a good number of those formative years, in a team house, 24/7, surrounded by men who groomed them all. How many times do you think they stroked Life's ego, look at all this money! Look at all this money you can make, you can live that high life! How many times do you think they have threatened their players with something legal? Throughout all the years of Starcraft in South Korea? Something, anything? Where is the reponsibility? The culpability? The admittance, that we are exiling them, for what? For whom?
It is indeed a mystery how he got into the dark side, right? especially the one who were upcoming bonjwa and a star player? You say he was at young age and there were the ones who would only manipulate the guys like him but teams doesn't work like that. Sure he struggled in Federation Teams, but no matter how shitty it was at least many teams had a code of conduct. They wouldn't want another fucking nightmare after it all happened years prior. The source being PRIME was no mystery there, because they didn't have any experience towards it besides the problem of THE MANAGER BEING ONE OF THE BROKERS. Funny how they all suffered from the previous matchfixing scandal and all the nightmare and he still didn't learn. They had previous precedent to prevent all that stuff from happening.
Let me tell you one thing, being young age and forced to do something illegal doesn't mean you can be forgiven. When same thing happened in ahq Korea in the LCK back in 2014, Promise exposed the owner and committed suicide. Sucks he became sexual predator after he survived that though. Not everyone reacts the same, and especially when you have the spotlight you should also know how to bear the weigh of it. Faker, for example, he had a lot of spotlight as well since his appearance, and considering ahq Korea's incident coincides with his debut (his debut was 2013). We can fairly say he debuted on the wild west. I can tell you also, T1 back then in LCK wasn't in the position like today. If that's your take, Faker should've fallen into that temptation long ago, but he didn't and turned out to be the greatest gamer in the history of League, and further the No.1 eSports player IN THE WORLD. Nobody said it would be easy. But be that as it may, you cannot JUSTIFY the act. For what they ban Life? For what they ban Savior? For what they ban all the matchfixers known into the system? To show it as a fact, that you CANNOT come back from those crimes and thus is to prevent further things to happen.
SC2 is now a community-driven. And that's why it is more vulnerable for things like that. How can you watch over all of that happening even when we didn't prevent on the KeSPA managed era?
As a host and KR community commentator I often see the demographics on my casting stream, and when I see it I find some of the origin as illegal betting sites. They infiltrate even on the community streams like myself, so how can you guarantee they won't commit again after all that?
Please, knock it off. As much as I would like to see more people playing SC2 competitively, there's still a line. And if you would ask CranK about this matter, you will get immediately banned for it, because I can tell you, he experienced all the aftermath of the matchfixing scandal firsthand, and he knows how hard it is to be inside of that shitstorm when he was barely 20. Koreans know how painful it was as a fan to see all that suffering from other guys who didn't even commit getting audited, all that crap, because some of the people did it. It is the deep trauma still lives on until this day. So I can definitely say the exile is indeed for all the Korean SC2 fans who truly loves the game and still watch eSports.
THIS. Westerners really tend not to get this. Life wasn't just a matchfixer. He was a thief who stole money from players and undermined the entire Korean sc2 scene. He broke laws and irreversibly damaged StarCraft II in Korea. Westerners can insert their own opinions, but they are almost always out of touch with the Korean perspective. (also there are a lot of stories about life gambling overseas and exhibiting behavior that would not be acceptable in Korea). Talk to Crank, soO, whoever, Life fucked them all over and should not have the ability to play again. His served his sentence and should be able to live what ever life he wants, but it should not involve progaming. The bridge is burnt.
You say he undermined the Korean SC2 scene due to match fixing. Then why is Korean League of Legends player, Clid, who committed sexual harassment, only banned from competitive gaming for a year? Aiming competed at World's this year and he committed sexual assault in 2019. Sexual harassment and sexual assault is arguably way worse than match fixing in my opinion.
Also if we're talking about morals, why not talk about NBA players committing felonies. Players committing sexual assault, Ja Morant and his guns, NBA partnerships with sportsbooks like FanDuel, the list goes on. SC2 and what these players do is literally a drop in the bucket compared to the exposure NBA has in USA and around the world, including Korea.
On November 07 2023 18:38 SupremeMaddox wrote: I don't get why it just comes back up. It's so fucking exhausting every time I see this.
First of all, the reason why 'Life" is hated as a matchfixer is because he was "THAT TALENTED". He could've been another Zerg bonjwa and made another history. It's totally his own fault who blew it, and not only that the shock got an extra kick because of the symbolic position he was as one of the Star Players. This is the main reason why people hate and don't want to even mention it. They're hurt as much as they loved him. He didn't even had an sincere apology to the fans. EVER. Fans were much more hurt because they had one notorious precedence in Brood War, (who was also coincidentally playing Zerg) and they had to relive all the horror and nightmare again this time. Yes, time flew and it's been over 7 years after that happened but hey, you know what?
WE'RE STILL BANNING SAVIOR in ASL. How crazy is that for you, huh?
Speaking of PRIME, yeah it's a fact that there were many great Terrans came out of it, but that same coach was the one who served as a broker for matchfixing. He even stole players' salary for use of his own. YoDa? also a match fixer. so as Bbyong, BBoongBBoong. Why don't we just forgive and forget every single one of them to come back and see how that pans out, huh? Why he should be the only exception? I still believe that there are good in people and I try to believe it, but sometimes, some people just don't change. Especially for those who committed actual crime. And I also don't want to see another case of "I told you so".
I hope I don't want to mention this ever again.
Ok lets just square something away. These are kids being dealt with by powerful, rich, authoritarian men. During this era they were all around 15-18 years old a lot of them. When does the issue becoming the grooming they were put through? Life was so damn good, who even introduced him to matchfixing? If you were an upcoming Bonjwa, how did these players have access to this seedier side of Kespa, Match Fixing, an the nature of Illegal betting in South Korea. Everything feels metaphorically at knife point with dealings regarding everything Sc2 related. Never forget, Life was just a kid, who spent a good number of those formative years, in a team house, 24/7, surrounded by men who groomed them all. How many times do you think they stroked Life's ego, look at all this money! Look at all this money you can make, you can live that high life! How many times do you think they have threatened their players with something legal? Throughout all the years of Starcraft in South Korea? Something, anything? Where is the reponsibility? The culpability? The admittance, that we are exiling them, for what? For whom?
This is true. Looking back at the SC2 team houses and they look like a sweat shop. I never realized they were that bad. Always thought it was similar to what I saw the team houses for CS:GO and LoL.
Ok lets just square something away. These are kids being dealt with by powerful, rich, authoritarian men. During this era they were all around 15-18 years old a lot of them. When does the issue becoming the grooming they were put through? Life was so damn good, who even introduced him to matchfixing? If you were an upcoming Bonjwa, how did these players have access to this seedier side of Kespa, Match Fixing, an the nature of Illegal betting in South Korea. Everything feels metaphorically at knife point with dealings regarding everything Sc2 related. Never forget, Life was just a kid, who spent a good number of those formative years, in a team house, 24/7, surrounded by men who groomed them all. How many times do you think they stroked Life's ego, look at all this money! Look at all this money you can make, you can live that high life! How many times do you think they have threatened their players with something legal? Throughout all the years of Starcraft in South Korea? Something, anything? Where is the reponsibility? The culpability? The admittance, that we are exiling them, for what? For whom?
It is indeed a mystery how he got into the dark side, right? especially the one who were upcoming bonjwa and a star player? You say he was at young age and there were the ones who would only manipulate the guys like him but teams doesn't work like that. Sure he struggled in Federation Teams, but no matter how shitty it was at least many teams had a code of conduct. They wouldn't want another fucking nightmare after it all happened years prior. The source being PRIME was no mystery there, because they didn't have any experience towards it besides the problem of THE MANAGER BEING ONE OF THE BROKERS. Funny how they all suffered from the previous matchfixing scandal and all the nightmare and he still didn't learn. They had previous precedent to prevent all that stuff from happening.
Let me tell you one thing, being young age and forced to do something illegal doesn't mean you can be forgiven. When same thing happened in ahq Korea in the LCK back in 2014, Promise exposed the owner and committed suicide. Sucks he became sexual predator after he survived that though. Not everyone reacts the same, and especially when you have the spotlight you should also know how to bear the weigh of it. Faker, for example, he had a lot of spotlight as well since his appearance, and considering ahq Korea's incident coincides with his debut (his debut was 2013). We can fairly say he debuted on the wild west. I can tell you also, T1 back then in LCK wasn't in the position like today. If that's your take, Faker should've fallen into that temptation long ago, but he didn't and turned out to be the greatest gamer in the history of League, and further the No.1 eSports player IN THE WORLD. Nobody said it would be easy. But be that as it may, you cannot JUSTIFY the act. For what they ban Life? For what they ban Savior? For what they ban all the matchfixers known into the system? To show it as a fact, that you CANNOT come back from those crimes and thus is to prevent further things to happen.
SC2 is now a community-driven. And that's why it is more vulnerable for things like that. How can you watch over all of that happening even when we didn't prevent on the KeSPA managed era?
As a host and KR community commentator I often see the demographics on my casting stream, and when I see it I find some of the origin as illegal betting sites. They infiltrate even on the community streams like myself, so how can you guarantee they won't commit again after all that?
Please, knock it off. As much as I would like to see more people playing SC2 competitively, there's still a line. And if you would ask CranK about this matter, you will get immediately banned for it, because I can tell you, he experienced all the aftermath of the matchfixing scandal firsthand, and he knows how hard it is to be inside of that shitstorm when he was barely 20. Koreans know how painful it was as a fan to see all that suffering from other guys who didn't even commit getting audited, all that crap, because some of the people did it. It is the deep trauma still lives on until this day. So I can definitely say the exile is indeed for all the Korean SC2 fans who truly loves the game and still watch eSports.
THIS. Westerners really tend not to get this. Life wasn't just a matchfixer. He was a thief who stole money from players and undermined the entire Korean sc2 scene. He broke laws and irreversibly damaged StarCraft II in Korea. Westerners can insert their own opinions, but they are almost always out of touch with the Korean perspective. (also there are a lot of stories about life gambling overseas and exhibiting behavior that would not be acceptable in Korea). Talk to Crank, soO, whoever, Life fucked them all over and should not have the ability to play again. His served his sentence and should be able to live what ever life he wants, but it should not involve progaming. The bridge is burnt.
You say he undermined the Korean SC2 scene due to match fixing. Then why is Korean League of Legends player, Clid, who committed sexual harassment, only banned from competitive gaming for a year? Aiming competed at World's this year and he committed sexual assault in 2019. Sexual harassment and sexual assault is arguably way worse than match fixing in my opinion.
Also if we're talking about morals, why not talk about NBA players committing felonies. Players committing sexual assault, Ja Morant and his guns, NBA partnerships with sportsbooks like FanDuel, the list goes on. SC2 and what these players do is literally a drop in the bucket compared to the exposure NBA has in USA and around the world, including Korea.
Because these are just singular player actions that don't shake the system. Life (and everyone else involved in that scandal) however did exactly that - they hit the system at its core, increasing distrust and scaring sponsors away. You could compare it with those athletes that doped in Cycling. It crashed the entire sport and they had to painfully crawl back up. And even now every winner of the Tour de France atleast has a questionmark behind their victories.
As for Clid: Riot did a ruling there on which you can agree or not agree, but for now, he is banned for basically one and a half year (one year for Riot events, six months more for koreans, so basically he is banned). It is questionable if and how he will come back and if he will do it in Korea. But again, those two cases have not much in common anyway, so it is just not practical to compare them
Btw, as for Aiming: He apparently was never punished by the law and technically he did not commit "sexual harassement". He was in a relationship with a fan who was a minor (him 19, her 15)...which in Germany for example wouldn't even be a crime as far as I know, though the "star-fan" relationship might change that. Though ofc no idea how the laws are there in Korea. But, as mentioned, he wasn't convicted for anything, so it is really bad manners from you to not only bring it up, but just casually flagging it as "sexual harassement".
Life's mechanics were actually kind of poor. He never hotkeyed eggs, didn't use camera keys, didn't hotkey individual hatches as other Koreans commonly did then. Instead he did the Idra style individual queens which works, but in HotS players were beginning to inject with Fkeys and he was still playing with his standard hotkeys. His primary strength was his boxing of units, which was elite, but his other mechanics were poor. He sure did catch a lot of players off guard with his ling micro, but I do not see him ever winning those 30+ minute games that Maru plays against zergs
On November 07 2023 18:38 SupremeMaddox wrote: I don't get why it just comes back up. It's so fucking exhausting every time I see this.
First of all, the reason why 'Life" is hated as a matchfixer is because he was "THAT TALENTED". He could've been another Zerg bonjwa and made another history. It's totally his own fault who blew it, and not only that the shock got an extra kick because of the symbolic position he was as one of the Star Players. This is the main reason why people hate and don't want to even mention it. They're hurt as much as they loved him. He didn't even had an sincere apology to the fans. EVER. Fans were much more hurt because they had one notorious precedence in Brood War, (who was also coincidentally playing Zerg) and they had to relive all the horror and nightmare again this time. Yes, time flew and it's been over 7 years after that happened but hey, you know what?
WE'RE STILL BANNING SAVIOR in ASL. How crazy is that for you, huh?
Speaking of PRIME, yeah it's a fact that there were many great Terrans came out of it, but that same coach was the one who served as a broker for matchfixing. He even stole players' salary for use of his own. YoDa? also a match fixer. so as Bbyong, BBoongBBoong. Why don't we just forgive and forget every single one of them to come back and see how that pans out, huh? Why he should be the only exception? I still believe that there are good in people and I try to believe it, but sometimes, some people just don't change. Especially for those who committed actual crime. And I also don't want to see another case of "I told you so".
I hope I don't want to mention this ever again.
Ok lets just square something away. These are kids being dealt with by powerful, rich, authoritarian men. During this era they were all around 15-18 years old a lot of them. When does the issue becoming the grooming they were put through? Life was so damn good, who even introduced him to matchfixing? If you were an upcoming Bonjwa, how did these players have access to this seedier side of Kespa, Match Fixing, an the nature of Illegal betting in South Korea. Everything feels metaphorically at knife point with dealings regarding everything Sc2 related. Never forget, Life was just a kid, who spent a good number of those formative years, in a team house, 24/7, surrounded by men who groomed them all. How many times do you think they stroked Life's ego, look at all this money! Look at all this money you can make, you can live that high life! How many times do you think they have threatened their players with something legal? Throughout all the years of Starcraft in South Korea? Something, anything? Where is the reponsibility? The culpability? The admittance, that we are exiling them, for what? For whom?
This is true. Looking back at the SC2 team houses and they look like a sweat shop. I never realized they were that bad. Always thought it was similar to what I saw the team houses for CS:GO and LoL.
Ok lets just square something away. These are kids being dealt with by powerful, rich, authoritarian men. During this era they were all around 15-18 years old a lot of them. When does the issue becoming the grooming they were put through? Life was so damn good, who even introduced him to matchfixing? If you were an upcoming Bonjwa, how did these players have access to this seedier side of Kespa, Match Fixing, an the nature of Illegal betting in South Korea. Everything feels metaphorically at knife point with dealings regarding everything Sc2 related. Never forget, Life was just a kid, who spent a good number of those formative years, in a team house, 24/7, surrounded by men who groomed them all. How many times do you think they stroked Life's ego, look at all this money! Look at all this money you can make, you can live that high life! How many times do you think they have threatened their players with something legal? Throughout all the years of Starcraft in South Korea? Something, anything? Where is the reponsibility? The culpability? The admittance, that we are exiling them, for what? For whom?
It is indeed a mystery how he got into the dark side, right? especially the one who were upcoming bonjwa and a star player? You say he was at young age and there were the ones who would only manipulate the guys like him but teams doesn't work like that. Sure he struggled in Federation Teams, but no matter how shitty it was at least many teams had a code of conduct. They wouldn't want another fucking nightmare after it all happened years prior. The source being PRIME was no mystery there, because they didn't have any experience towards it besides the problem of THE MANAGER BEING ONE OF THE BROKERS. Funny how they all suffered from the previous matchfixing scandal and all the nightmare and he still didn't learn. They had previous precedent to prevent all that stuff from happening.
Let me tell you one thing, being young age and forced to do something illegal doesn't mean you can be forgiven. When same thing happened in ahq Korea in the LCK back in 2014, Promise exposed the owner and committed suicide. Sucks he became sexual predator after he survived that though. Not everyone reacts the same, and especially when you have the spotlight you should also know how to bear the weigh of it. Faker, for example, he had a lot of spotlight as well since his appearance, and considering ahq Korea's incident coincides with his debut (his debut was 2013). We can fairly say he debuted on the wild west. I can tell you also, T1 back then in LCK wasn't in the position like today. If that's your take, Faker should've fallen into that temptation long ago, but he didn't and turned out to be the greatest gamer in the history of League, and further the No.1 eSports player IN THE WORLD. Nobody said it would be easy. But be that as it may, you cannot JUSTIFY the act. For what they ban Life? For what they ban Savior? For what they ban all the matchfixers known into the system? To show it as a fact, that you CANNOT come back from those crimes and thus is to prevent further things to happen.
SC2 is now a community-driven. And that's why it is more vulnerable for things like that. How can you watch over all of that happening even when we didn't prevent on the KeSPA managed era?
As a host and KR community commentator I often see the demographics on my casting stream, and when I see it I find some of the origin as illegal betting sites. They infiltrate even on the community streams like myself, so how can you guarantee they won't commit again after all that?
Please, knock it off. As much as I would like to see more people playing SC2 competitively, there's still a line. And if you would ask CranK about this matter, you will get immediately banned for it, because I can tell you, he experienced all the aftermath of the matchfixing scandal firsthand, and he knows how hard it is to be inside of that shitstorm when he was barely 20. Koreans know how painful it was as a fan to see all that suffering from other guys who didn't even commit getting audited, all that crap, because some of the people did it. It is the deep trauma still lives on until this day. So I can definitely say the exile is indeed for all the Korean SC2 fans who truly loves the game and still watch eSports.
THIS. Westerners really tend not to get this. Life wasn't just a matchfixer. He was a thief who stole money from players and undermined the entire Korean sc2 scene. He broke laws and irreversibly damaged StarCraft II in Korea. Westerners can insert their own opinions, but they are almost always out of touch with the Korean perspective. (also there are a lot of stories about life gambling overseas and exhibiting behavior that would not be acceptable in Korea). Talk to Crank, soO, whoever, Life fucked them all over and should not have the ability to play again. His served his sentence and should be able to live what ever life he wants, but it should not involve progaming. The bridge is burnt.
You say he undermined the Korean SC2 scene due to match fixing. Then why is Korean League of Legends player, Clid, who committed sexual harassment, only banned from competitive gaming for a year? Aiming competed at World's this year and he committed sexual assault in 2019. Sexual harassment and sexual assault is arguably way worse than match fixing in my opinion.
Also if we're talking about morals, why not talk about NBA players committing felonies. Players committing sexual assault, Ja Morant and his guns, NBA partnerships with sportsbooks like FanDuel, the list goes on. SC2 and what these players do is literally a drop in the bucket compared to the exposure NBA has in USA and around the world, including Korea.
Because these are just singular player actions that don't shake the system. Life (and everyone else involved in that scandal) however did exactly that - they hit the system at its core, increasing distrust and scaring sponsors away. You could compare it with those athletes that doped in Cycling. It crashed the entire sport and they had to painfully crawl back up. And even now every winner of the Tour de France atleast has a questionmark behind their victories.
As for Clid: Riot did a ruling there on which you can agree or not agree, but for now, he is banned for basically one and a half year (one year for Riot events, six months more for koreans, so basically he is banned). It is questionable if and how he will come back and if he will do it in Korea. But again, those two cases have not much in common anyway, so it is just not practical to compare them
Btw, as for Aiming: He apparently was never punished by the law and technically he did not commit "sexual harassement". He was in a relationship with a fan who was a minor (him 19, her 15)...which in Germany for example wouldn't even be a crime as far as I know, though the "star-fan" relationship might change that. Though ofc no idea how the laws are there in Korea. But, as mentioned, he wasn't convicted for anything, so it is really bad manners from you to not only bring it up, but just casually flagging it as "sexual harassement".
Ok so if we take out singular examples I provided, then what about my NBA example? The league was, and is still involved in indirect match fixing and gambling. It's no secret refs bet on the games and they have enough influence to affect the outcome of the game, and to make the spread. Teams blatantly tank in order to try and achieve a better draft pick. I brought this up years ago and this forum shut it down saying something like "Well if the NBA is that dirty of a sport, then eventually it'll fail." Not only is the sport thriving, it is expanding at a rapid pace and worth way more than ever. Giannis Antetokounmpo is expected to sign a 5 year max worth $334m. Teams are worth billions of dollars.
Also, Korea's age of consent is 20 years old according to Google.
On November 08 2023 06:39 Mutaller wrote: Life's mechanics were actually kind of poor. He never hotkeyed eggs, didn't use camera keys, didn't hotkey individual hatches as other Koreans commonly did then. Instead he did the Idra style individual queens which works, but in HotS players were beginning to inject with Fkeys and he was still playing with his standard hotkeys. His primary strength was his boxing of units, which was elite, but his other mechanics were poor. He sure did catch a lot of players off guard with his ling micro, but I do not see him ever winning those 30+ minute games that Maru plays against zergs
Some people have the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia regarding Life’s level, players have vastly improved since then. And given what he did, there is no point in wanting to see him back in StarCraft, ever. But even if you would want to watch him, you would be disappointed, because better players arose
On November 08 2023 06:39 Mutaller wrote: Life's mechanics were actually kind of poor. He never hotkeyed eggs, didn't use camera keys, didn't hotkey individual hatches as other Koreans commonly did then. Instead he did the Idra style individual queens which works, but in HotS players were beginning to inject with Fkeys and he was still playing with his standard hotkeys. His primary strength was his boxing of units, which was elite, but his other mechanics were poor. He sure did catch a lot of players off guard with his ling micro, but I do not see him ever winning those 30+ minute games that Maru plays against zergs
his mechanics were very good. He just used a suboptimal inject method which to be fair to him, it didn't really become mainstream till lotv for all zergs to use the same optimized inject style, although soulkey was doing it already the moment he swapped to sc2 end of 2012.
it's kind of a small thing he could have easily changed, and weird to say his mechanics were poor because of how he injected. It's even more impressive he was able to be the top zerg player during a time where zerg really wasn't having a good time (Hots), when he didn't even reach his final form yet of playing clean. Life would've been an absolute monster in Lotv, but because of a dumb mistake he took that away from himself and from us, the fans.
On topic, if Life wanted to play sc2 at this point I feel like he should be allowed, but I think it's irrelevant as he most likely doesn't want to. I don't think a lifetime ban is warranted in a case like this, the guy made a dumb mistake when he was so young. a 3-5 year ban would be more than enough. He ruined his carreer which most certainly he was on the trajectory to be one of the all time top earners of the game, so he lost a lot of money.
On November 07 2023 18:38 SupremeMaddox wrote: I don't get why it just comes back up. It's so fucking exhausting every time I see this.
First of all, the reason why 'Life" is hated as a matchfixer is because he was "THAT TALENTED". He could've been another Zerg bonjwa and made another history. It's totally his own fault who blew it, and not only that the shock got an extra kick because of the symbolic position he was as one of the Star Players. This is the main reason why people hate and don't want to even mention it. They're hurt as much as they loved him. He didn't even had an sincere apology to the fans. EVER. Fans were much more hurt because they had one notorious precedence in Brood War, (who was also coincidentally playing Zerg) and they had to relive all the horror and nightmare again this time. Yes, time flew and it's been over 7 years after that happened but hey, you know what?
WE'RE STILL BANNING SAVIOR in ASL. How crazy is that for you, huh?
Speaking of PRIME, yeah it's a fact that there were many great Terrans came out of it, but that same coach was the one who served as a broker for matchfixing. He even stole players' salary for use of his own. YoDa? also a match fixer. so as Bbyong, BBoongBBoong. Why don't we just forgive and forget every single one of them to come back and see how that pans out, huh? Why he should be the only exception? I still believe that there are good in people and I try to believe it, but sometimes, some people just don't change. Especially for those who committed actual crime. And I also don't want to see another case of "I told you so".
I hope I don't want to mention this ever again.
Ok lets just square something away. These are kids being dealt with by powerful, rich, authoritarian men. During this era they were all around 15-18 years old a lot of them. When does the issue becoming the grooming they were put through? Life was so damn good, who even introduced him to matchfixing? If you were an upcoming Bonjwa, how did these players have access to this seedier side of Kespa, Match Fixing, an the nature of Illegal betting in South Korea. Everything feels metaphorically at knife point with dealings regarding everything Sc2 related. Never forget, Life was just a kid, who spent a good number of those formative years, in a team house, 24/7, surrounded by men who groomed them all. How many times do you think they stroked Life's ego, look at all this money! Look at all this money you can make, you can live that high life! How many times do you think they have threatened their players with something legal? Throughout all the years of Starcraft in South Korea? Something, anything? Where is the reponsibility? The culpability? The admittance, that we are exiling them, for what? For whom?
This is true. Looking back at the SC2 team houses and they look like a sweat shop. I never realized they were that bad. Always thought it was similar to what I saw the team houses for CS:GO and LoL.
Ok lets just square something away. These are kids being dealt with by powerful, rich, authoritarian men. During this era they were all around 15-18 years old a lot of them. When does the issue becoming the grooming they were put through? Life was so damn good, who even introduced him to matchfixing? If you were an upcoming Bonjwa, how did these players have access to this seedier side of Kespa, Match Fixing, an the nature of Illegal betting in South Korea. Everything feels metaphorically at knife point with dealings regarding everything Sc2 related. Never forget, Life was just a kid, who spent a good number of those formative years, in a team house, 24/7, surrounded by men who groomed them all. How many times do you think they stroked Life's ego, look at all this money! Look at all this money you can make, you can live that high life! How many times do you think they have threatened their players with something legal? Throughout all the years of Starcraft in South Korea? Something, anything? Where is the reponsibility? The culpability? The admittance, that we are exiling them, for what? For whom?
It is indeed a mystery how he got into the dark side, right? especially the one who were upcoming bonjwa and a star player? You say he was at young age and there were the ones who would only manipulate the guys like him but teams doesn't work like that. Sure he struggled in Federation Teams, but no matter how shitty it was at least many teams had a code of conduct. They wouldn't want another fucking nightmare after it all happened years prior. The source being PRIME was no mystery there, because they didn't have any experience towards it besides the problem of THE MANAGER BEING ONE OF THE BROKERS. Funny how they all suffered from the previous matchfixing scandal and all the nightmare and he still didn't learn. They had previous precedent to prevent all that stuff from happening.
Let me tell you one thing, being young age and forced to do something illegal doesn't mean you can be forgiven. When same thing happened in ahq Korea in the LCK back in 2014, Promise exposed the owner and committed suicide. Sucks he became sexual predator after he survived that though. Not everyone reacts the same, and especially when you have the spotlight you should also know how to bear the weigh of it. Faker, for example, he had a lot of spotlight as well since his appearance, and considering ahq Korea's incident coincides with his debut (his debut was 2013). We can fairly say he debuted on the wild west. I can tell you also, T1 back then in LCK wasn't in the position like today. If that's your take, Faker should've fallen into that temptation long ago, but he didn't and turned out to be the greatest gamer in the history of League, and further the No.1 eSports player IN THE WORLD. Nobody said it would be easy. But be that as it may, you cannot JUSTIFY the act. For what they ban Life? For what they ban Savior? For what they ban all the matchfixers known into the system? To show it as a fact, that you CANNOT come back from those crimes and thus is to prevent further things to happen.
SC2 is now a community-driven. And that's why it is more vulnerable for things like that. How can you watch over all of that happening even when we didn't prevent on the KeSPA managed era?
As a host and KR community commentator I often see the demographics on my casting stream, and when I see it I find some of the origin as illegal betting sites. They infiltrate even on the community streams like myself, so how can you guarantee they won't commit again after all that?
Please, knock it off. As much as I would like to see more people playing SC2 competitively, there's still a line. And if you would ask CranK about this matter, you will get immediately banned for it, because I can tell you, he experienced all the aftermath of the matchfixing scandal firsthand, and he knows how hard it is to be inside of that shitstorm when he was barely 20. Koreans know how painful it was as a fan to see all that suffering from other guys who didn't even commit getting audited, all that crap, because some of the people did it. It is the deep trauma still lives on until this day. So I can definitely say the exile is indeed for all the Korean SC2 fans who truly loves the game and still watch eSports.
THIS. Westerners really tend not to get this. Life wasn't just a matchfixer. He was a thief who stole money from players and undermined the entire Korean sc2 scene. He broke laws and irreversibly damaged StarCraft II in Korea. Westerners can insert their own opinions, but they are almost always out of touch with the Korean perspective. (also there are a lot of stories about life gambling overseas and exhibiting behavior that would not be acceptable in Korea). Talk to Crank, soO, whoever, Life fucked them all over and should not have the ability to play again. His served his sentence and should be able to live what ever life he wants, but it should not involve progaming. The bridge is burnt.
You say he undermined the Korean SC2 scene due to match fixing. Then why is Korean League of Legends player, Clid, who committed sexual harassment, only banned from competitive gaming for a year? Aiming competed at World's this year and he committed sexual assault in 2019. Sexual harassment and sexual assault is arguably way worse than match fixing in my opinion.
Also if we're talking about morals, why not talk about NBA players committing felonies. Players committing sexual assault, Ja Morant and his guns, NBA partnerships with sportsbooks like FanDuel, the list goes on. SC2 and what these players do is literally a drop in the bucket compared to the exposure NBA has in USA and around the world, including Korea.
Because these are just singular player actions that don't shake the system. Life (and everyone else involved in that scandal) however did exactly that - they hit the system at its core, increasing distrust and scaring sponsors away. You could compare it with those athletes that doped in Cycling. It crashed the entire sport and they had to painfully crawl back up. And even now every winner of the Tour de France atleast has a questionmark behind their victories.
As for Clid: Riot did a ruling there on which you can agree or not agree, but for now, he is banned for basically one and a half year (one year for Riot events, six months more for koreans, so basically he is banned). It is questionable if and how he will come back and if he will do it in Korea. But again, those two cases have not much in common anyway, so it is just not practical to compare them
Btw, as for Aiming: He apparently was never punished by the law and technically he did not commit "sexual harassement". He was in a relationship with a fan who was a minor (him 19, her 15)...which in Germany for example wouldn't even be a crime as far as I know, though the "star-fan" relationship might change that. Though ofc no idea how the laws are there in Korea. But, as mentioned, he wasn't convicted for anything, so it is really bad manners from you to not only bring it up, but just casually flagging it as "sexual harassement".
Ok so if we take out singular examples I provided, then what about my NBA example? The league was, and is still involved in indirect match fixing and gambling. It's no secret refs bet on the games and they have enough influence to affect the outcome of the game, and to make the spread. Teams blatantly tank in order to try and achieve a better draft pick. I brought this up years ago and this forum shut it down saying something like "Well if the NBA is that dirty of a sport, then eventually it'll fail." Not only is the sport thriving, it is expanding at a rapid pace and worth way more than ever. Giannis Antetokounmpo is expected to sign a 5 year max worth $334m. Teams are worth billions of dollars.
Also, Korea's age of consent is 20 years old according to Google.
I feel like we already had that discussion... How about you take your complaints to a basketball forum? Because the reality is, that there is a strong case to be made that Lifes actions affected sponsorships in Korea. And since Esports is mostly based on sponsorship money, unlike the NBA where ticket sales, merchandise and TV rights make a big part of the money (plus all the teams are owned by billionaires who don't really care anyway), this is a big deal. This is about SC2, specifically SC2 in Korea. Don't make it about anything else because there is literally no point.
A quick search gives some confusing infos about the age of consent in Korea, but one news article claims that it was 13 before 2020, so Aiming would probably be okay-ish. Which also tells you the fact that he admitted it was a sexual relationship, so if it was that troublesome by law, he would have been convicted - which he wasn't. So here again: Drop it, it has nothing to do with anything
On November 07 2023 18:38 SupremeMaddox wrote: I don't get why it just comes back up. It's so fucking exhausting every time I see this.
First of all, the reason why 'Life" is hated as a matchfixer is because he was "THAT TALENTED". He could've been another Zerg bonjwa and made another history. It's totally his own fault who blew it, and not only that the shock got an extra kick because of the symbolic position he was as one of the Star Players. This is the main reason why people hate and don't want to even mention it. They're hurt as much as they loved him. He didn't even had an sincere apology to the fans. EVER. Fans were much more hurt because they had one notorious precedence in Brood War, (who was also coincidentally playing Zerg) and they had to relive all the horror and nightmare again this time. Yes, time flew and it's been over 7 years after that happened but hey, you know what?
WE'RE STILL BANNING SAVIOR in ASL. How crazy is that for you, huh?
Speaking of PRIME, yeah it's a fact that there were many great Terrans came out of it, but that same coach was the one who served as a broker for matchfixing. He even stole players' salary for use of his own. YoDa? also a match fixer. so as Bbyong, BBoongBBoong. Why don't we just forgive and forget every single one of them to come back and see how that pans out, huh? Why he should be the only exception? I still believe that there are good in people and I try to believe it, but sometimes, some people just don't change. Especially for those who committed actual crime. And I also don't want to see another case of "I told you so".
I hope I don't want to mention this ever again.
Ok lets just square something away. These are kids being dealt with by powerful, rich, authoritarian men. During this era they were all around 15-18 years old a lot of them. When does the issue becoming the grooming they were put through? Life was so damn good, who even introduced him to matchfixing? If you were an upcoming Bonjwa, how did these players have access to this seedier side of Kespa, Match Fixing, an the nature of Illegal betting in South Korea. Everything feels metaphorically at knife point with dealings regarding everything Sc2 related. Never forget, Life was just a kid, who spent a good number of those formative years, in a team house, 24/7, surrounded by men who groomed them all. How many times do you think they stroked Life's ego, look at all this money! Look at all this money you can make, you can live that high life! How many times do you think they have threatened their players with something legal? Throughout all the years of Starcraft in South Korea? Something, anything? Where is the reponsibility? The culpability? The admittance, that we are exiling them, for what? For whom?
This is true. Looking back at the SC2 team houses and they look like a sweat shop. I never realized they were that bad. Always thought it was similar to what I saw the team houses for CS:GO and LoL.
Ok lets just square something away. These are kids being dealt with by powerful, rich, authoritarian men. During this era they were all around 15-18 years old a lot of them. When does the issue becoming the grooming they were put through? Life was so damn good, who even introduced him to matchfixing? If you were an upcoming Bonjwa, how did these players have access to this seedier side of Kespa, Match Fixing, an the nature of Illegal betting in South Korea. Everything feels metaphorically at knife point with dealings regarding everything Sc2 related. Never forget, Life was just a kid, who spent a good number of those formative years, in a team house, 24/7, surrounded by men who groomed them all. How many times do you think they stroked Life's ego, look at all this money! Look at all this money you can make, you can live that high life! How many times do you think they have threatened their players with something legal? Throughout all the years of Starcraft in South Korea? Something, anything? Where is the reponsibility? The culpability? The admittance, that we are exiling them, for what? For whom?
It is indeed a mystery how he got into the dark side, right? especially the one who were upcoming bonjwa and a star player? You say he was at young age and there were the ones who would only manipulate the guys like him but teams doesn't work like that. Sure he struggled in Federation Teams, but no matter how shitty it was at least many teams had a code of conduct. They wouldn't want another fucking nightmare after it all happened years prior. The source being PRIME was no mystery there, because they didn't have any experience towards it besides the problem of THE MANAGER BEING ONE OF THE BROKERS. Funny how they all suffered from the previous matchfixing scandal and all the nightmare and he still didn't learn. They had previous precedent to prevent all that stuff from happening.
Let me tell you one thing, being young age and forced to do something illegal doesn't mean you can be forgiven. When same thing happened in ahq Korea in the LCK back in 2014, Promise exposed the owner and committed suicide. Sucks he became sexual predator after he survived that though. Not everyone reacts the same, and especially when you have the spotlight you should also know how to bear the weigh of it. Faker, for example, he had a lot of spotlight as well since his appearance, and considering ahq Korea's incident coincides with his debut (his debut was 2013). We can fairly say he debuted on the wild west. I can tell you also, T1 back then in LCK wasn't in the position like today. If that's your take, Faker should've fallen into that temptation long ago, but he didn't and turned out to be the greatest gamer in the history of League, and further the No.1 eSports player IN THE WORLD. Nobody said it would be easy. But be that as it may, you cannot JUSTIFY the act. For what they ban Life? For what they ban Savior? For what they ban all the matchfixers known into the system? To show it as a fact, that you CANNOT come back from those crimes and thus is to prevent further things to happen.
SC2 is now a community-driven. And that's why it is more vulnerable for things like that. How can you watch over all of that happening even when we didn't prevent on the KeSPA managed era?
As a host and KR community commentator I often see the demographics on my casting stream, and when I see it I find some of the origin as illegal betting sites. They infiltrate even on the community streams like myself, so how can you guarantee they won't commit again after all that?
Please, knock it off. As much as I would like to see more people playing SC2 competitively, there's still a line. And if you would ask CranK about this matter, you will get immediately banned for it, because I can tell you, he experienced all the aftermath of the matchfixing scandal firsthand, and he knows how hard it is to be inside of that shitstorm when he was barely 20. Koreans know how painful it was as a fan to see all that suffering from other guys who didn't even commit getting audited, all that crap, because some of the people did it. It is the deep trauma still lives on until this day. So I can definitely say the exile is indeed for all the Korean SC2 fans who truly loves the game and still watch eSports.
THIS. Westerners really tend not to get this. Life wasn't just a matchfixer. He was a thief who stole money from players and undermined the entire Korean sc2 scene. He broke laws and irreversibly damaged StarCraft II in Korea. Westerners can insert their own opinions, but they are almost always out of touch with the Korean perspective. (also there are a lot of stories about life gambling overseas and exhibiting behavior that would not be acceptable in Korea). Talk to Crank, soO, whoever, Life fucked them all over and should not have the ability to play again. His served his sentence and should be able to live what ever life he wants, but it should not involve progaming. The bridge is burnt.
You say he undermined the Korean SC2 scene due to match fixing. Then why is Korean League of Legends player, Clid, who committed sexual harassment, only banned from competitive gaming for a year? Aiming competed at World's this year and he committed sexual assault in 2019. Sexual harassment and sexual assault is arguably way worse than match fixing in my opinion.
Also if we're talking about morals, why not talk about NBA players committing felonies. Players committing sexual assault, Ja Morant and his guns, NBA partnerships with sportsbooks like FanDuel, the list goes on. SC2 and what these players do is literally a drop in the bucket compared to the exposure NBA has in USA and around the world, including Korea.
Because these are just singular player actions that don't shake the system. Life (and everyone else involved in that scandal) however did exactly that - they hit the system at its core, increasing distrust and scaring sponsors away. You could compare it with those athletes that doped in Cycling. It crashed the entire sport and they had to painfully crawl back up. And even now every winner of the Tour de France atleast has a questionmark behind their victories.
As for Clid: Riot did a ruling there on which you can agree or not agree, but for now, he is banned for basically one and a half year (one year for Riot events, six months more for koreans, so basically he is banned). It is questionable if and how he will come back and if he will do it in Korea. But again, those two cases have not much in common anyway, so it is just not practical to compare them
Btw, as for Aiming: He apparently was never punished by the law and technically he did not commit "sexual harassement". He was in a relationship with a fan who was a minor (him 19, her 15)...which in Germany for example wouldn't even be a crime as far as I know, though the "star-fan" relationship might change that. Though ofc no idea how the laws are there in Korea. But, as mentioned, he wasn't convicted for anything, so it is really bad manners from you to not only bring it up, but just casually flagging it as "sexual harassement".
Ok so if we take out singular examples I provided, then what about my NBA example? The league was, and is still involved in indirect match fixing and gambling. It's no secret refs bet on the games and they have enough influence to affect the outcome of the game, and to make the spread. Teams blatantly tank in order to try and achieve a better draft pick. I brought this up years ago and this forum shut it down saying something like "Well if the NBA is that dirty of a sport, then eventually it'll fail." Not only is the sport thriving, it is expanding at a rapid pace and worth way more than ever. Giannis Antetokounmpo is expected to sign a 5 year max worth $334m. Teams are worth billions of dollars.
Also, Korea's age of consent is 20 years old according to Google.
I feel like we already had that discussion... How about you take your complaints to a basketball forum? Because the reality is, that there is a strong case to be made that Lifes actions affected sponsorships in Korea. And since Esports is mostly based on sponsorship money, unlike the NBA where ticket sales, merchandise and TV rights make a big part of the money (plus all the teams are owned by billionaires who don't really care anyway), this is a big deal. This is about SC2, specifically SC2 in Korea. Don't make it about anything else because there is literally no point.
A quick search gives some confusing infos about the age of consent in Korea, but one news article claims that it was 13 before 2020, so Aiming would probably be okay-ish. Which also tells you the fact that he admitted it was a sexual relationship, so if it was that troublesome by law, he would have been convicted - which he wasn't. So here again: Drop it, it has nothing to do with anything
I disagree with your take on the NBA and where the valuation and revenue comes from. TV rights, merchandise, and ticket sales are all related to the integrity of the NBA. The NBA is an entertainment and for profit business first, basketball game second. Also let's not forget the FBI was literally involved in the NBA betting scandal but David Stern somehow got ahead of the FBI and the FBI's case was blown up. You don't think the scandal affected the NBA? Same with Malice at the Palace? It casted a significant shadow on the league.
Esports in general can recover from scandals. We see it in real sports, politicians, large corporations, everything. It's just a matter of whether we want to or not.
On November 08 2023 02:33 ChuChuRocket wrote: You are way out of it, no offense. "Claiming The Right" is me signalling to the ENTIRE COMMUNITY, not on this topic alone, that this is now the communities game. Life can go where he pleases, play on ANY REGION HE PLEASES, and if he wants to compete in an EU or NA tournament? Then I say F U to any Korean influence on that decision. Ya heard?
Okay, well this thread here is the foreign community also telling you Life is not wanted.
EDIT: I personally don't have a huge say in the matter, following SC2 less than BW and possibly sympathetic to the arguments about Life's young age at the time he did those things.
I am just calling out the nonsense that is you acting like this is some Korea-specific thing. All those who participate in, or follow, proscenes in competitive games dislike caught cheaters, all around the world. Look at M:tG for example. There's a small number of people who cape for the confirmed cheaters and a whole ton of derision from everyone else.
On November 07 2023 18:38 SupremeMaddox wrote: I don't get why it just comes back up. It's so fucking exhausting every time I see this.
First of all, the reason why 'Life" is hated as a matchfixer is because he was "THAT TALENTED". He could've been another Zerg bonjwa and made another history. It's totally his own fault who blew it, and not only that the shock got an extra kick because of the symbolic position he was as one of the Star Players. This is the main reason why people hate and don't want to even mention it. They're hurt as much as they loved him. He didn't even had an sincere apology to the fans. EVER. Fans were much more hurt because they had one notorious precedence in Brood War, (who was also coincidentally playing Zerg) and they had to relive all the horror and nightmare again this time. Yes, time flew and it's been over 7 years after that happened but hey, you know what?
WE'RE STILL BANNING SAVIOR in ASL. How crazy is that for you, huh?
Speaking of PRIME, yeah it's a fact that there were many great Terrans came out of it, but that same coach was the one who served as a broker for matchfixing. He even stole players' salary for use of his own. YoDa? also a match fixer. so as Bbyong, BBoongBBoong. Why don't we just forgive and forget every single one of them to come back and see how that pans out, huh? Why he should be the only exception? I still believe that there are good in people and I try to believe it, but sometimes, some people just don't change. Especially for those who committed actual crime. And I also don't want to see another case of "I told you so".
I hope I don't want to mention this ever again.
Ok lets just square something away. These are kids being dealt with by powerful, rich, authoritarian men. During this era they were all around 15-18 years old a lot of them. When does the issue becoming the grooming they were put through? Life was so damn good, who even introduced him to matchfixing? If you were an upcoming Bonjwa, how did these players have access to this seedier side of Kespa, Match Fixing, an the nature of Illegal betting in South Korea. Everything feels metaphorically at knife point with dealings regarding everything Sc2 related. Never forget, Life was just a kid, who spent a good number of those formative years, in a team house, 24/7, surrounded by men who groomed them all. How many times do you think they stroked Life's ego, look at all this money! Look at all this money you can make, you can live that high life! How many times do you think they have threatened their players with something legal? Throughout all the years of Starcraft in South Korea? Something, anything? Where is the reponsibility? The culpability? The admittance, that we are exiling them, for what? For whom?
This is true. Looking back at the SC2 team houses and they look like a sweat shop. I never realized they were that bad. Always thought it was similar to what I saw the team houses for CS:GO and LoL.
Ok lets just square something away. These are kids being dealt with by powerful, rich, authoritarian men. During this era they were all around 15-18 years old a lot of them. When does the issue becoming the grooming they were put through? Life was so damn good, who even introduced him to matchfixing? If you were an upcoming Bonjwa, how did these players have access to this seedier side of Kespa, Match Fixing, an the nature of Illegal betting in South Korea. Everything feels metaphorically at knife point with dealings regarding everything Sc2 related. Never forget, Life was just a kid, who spent a good number of those formative years, in a team house, 24/7, surrounded by men who groomed them all. How many times do you think they stroked Life's ego, look at all this money! Look at all this money you can make, you can live that high life! How many times do you think they have threatened their players with something legal? Throughout all the years of Starcraft in South Korea? Something, anything? Where is the reponsibility? The culpability? The admittance, that we are exiling them, for what? For whom?
It is indeed a mystery how he got into the dark side, right? especially the one who were upcoming bonjwa and a star player? You say he was at young age and there were the ones who would only manipulate the guys like him but teams doesn't work like that. Sure he struggled in Federation Teams, but no matter how shitty it was at least many teams had a code of conduct. They wouldn't want another fucking nightmare after it all happened years prior. The source being PRIME was no mystery there, because they didn't have any experience towards it besides the problem of THE MANAGER BEING ONE OF THE BROKERS. Funny how they all suffered from the previous matchfixing scandal and all the nightmare and he still didn't learn. They had previous precedent to prevent all that stuff from happening.
Let me tell you one thing, being young age and forced to do something illegal doesn't mean you can be forgiven. When same thing happened in ahq Korea in the LCK back in 2014, Promise exposed the owner and committed suicide. Sucks he became sexual predator after he survived that though. Not everyone reacts the same, and especially when you have the spotlight you should also know how to bear the weigh of it. Faker, for example, he had a lot of spotlight as well since his appearance, and considering ahq Korea's incident coincides with his debut (his debut was 2013). We can fairly say he debuted on the wild west. I can tell you also, T1 back then in LCK wasn't in the position like today. If that's your take, Faker should've fallen into that temptation long ago, but he didn't and turned out to be the greatest gamer in the history of League, and further the No.1 eSports player IN THE WORLD. Nobody said it would be easy. But be that as it may, you cannot JUSTIFY the act. For what they ban Life? For what they ban Savior? For what they ban all the matchfixers known into the system? To show it as a fact, that you CANNOT come back from those crimes and thus is to prevent further things to happen.
SC2 is now a community-driven. And that's why it is more vulnerable for things like that. How can you watch over all of that happening even when we didn't prevent on the KeSPA managed era?
As a host and KR community commentator I often see the demographics on my casting stream, and when I see it I find some of the origin as illegal betting sites. They infiltrate even on the community streams like myself, so how can you guarantee they won't commit again after all that?
Please, knock it off. As much as I would like to see more people playing SC2 competitively, there's still a line. And if you would ask CranK about this matter, you will get immediately banned for it, because I can tell you, he experienced all the aftermath of the matchfixing scandal firsthand, and he knows how hard it is to be inside of that shitstorm when he was barely 20. Koreans know how painful it was as a fan to see all that suffering from other guys who didn't even commit getting audited, all that crap, because some of the people did it. It is the deep trauma still lives on until this day. So I can definitely say the exile is indeed for all the Korean SC2 fans who truly loves the game and still watch eSports.
THIS. Westerners really tend not to get this. Life wasn't just a matchfixer. He was a thief who stole money from players and undermined the entire Korean sc2 scene. He broke laws and irreversibly damaged StarCraft II in Korea. Westerners can insert their own opinions, but they are almost always out of touch with the Korean perspective. (also there are a lot of stories about life gambling overseas and exhibiting behavior that would not be acceptable in Korea). Talk to Crank, soO, whoever, Life fucked them all over and should not have the ability to play again. His served his sentence and should be able to live what ever life he wants, but it should not involve progaming. The bridge is burnt.
You say he undermined the Korean SC2 scene due to match fixing. Then why is Korean League of Legends player, Clid, who committed sexual harassment, only banned from competitive gaming for a year? Aiming competed at World's this year and he committed sexual assault in 2019. Sexual harassment and sexual assault is arguably way worse than match fixing in my opinion.
Also if we're talking about morals, why not talk about NBA players committing felonies. Players committing sexual assault, Ja Morant and his guns, NBA partnerships with sportsbooks like FanDuel, the list goes on. SC2 and what these players do is literally a drop in the bucket compared to the exposure NBA has in USA and around the world, including Korea.
Because these are just singular player actions that don't shake the system. Life (and everyone else involved in that scandal) however did exactly that - they hit the system at its core, increasing distrust and scaring sponsors away. You could compare it with those athletes that doped in Cycling. It crashed the entire sport and they had to painfully crawl back up. And even now every winner of the Tour de France atleast has a questionmark behind their victories.
As for Clid: Riot did a ruling there on which you can agree or not agree, but for now, he is banned for basically one and a half year (one year for Riot events, six months more for koreans, so basically he is banned). It is questionable if and how he will come back and if he will do it in Korea. But again, those two cases have not much in common anyway, so it is just not practical to compare them
Btw, as for Aiming: He apparently was never punished by the law and technically he did not commit "sexual harassement". He was in a relationship with a fan who was a minor (him 19, her 15)...which in Germany for example wouldn't even be a crime as far as I know, though the "star-fan" relationship might change that. Though ofc no idea how the laws are there in Korea. But, as mentioned, he wasn't convicted for anything, so it is really bad manners from you to not only bring it up, but just casually flagging it as "sexual harassement".
Ok so if we take out singular examples I provided, then what about my NBA example? The league was, and is still involved in indirect match fixing and gambling. It's no secret refs bet on the games and they have enough influence to affect the outcome of the game, and to make the spread. Teams blatantly tank in order to try and achieve a better draft pick. I brought this up years ago and this forum shut it down saying something like "Well if the NBA is that dirty of a sport, then eventually it'll fail." Not only is the sport thriving, it is expanding at a rapid pace and worth way more than ever. Giannis Antetokounmpo is expected to sign a 5 year max worth $334m. Teams are worth billions of dollars.
Also, Korea's age of consent is 20 years old according to Google.
I feel like we already had that discussion... How about you take your complaints to a basketball forum? Because the reality is, that there is a strong case to be made that Lifes actions affected sponsorships in Korea. And since Esports is mostly based on sponsorship money, unlike the NBA where ticket sales, merchandise and TV rights make a big part of the money (plus all the teams are owned by billionaires who don't really care anyway), this is a big deal. This is about SC2, specifically SC2 in Korea. Don't make it about anything else because there is literally no point.
A quick search gives some confusing infos about the age of consent in Korea, but one news article claims that it was 13 before 2020, so Aiming would probably be okay-ish. Which also tells you the fact that he admitted it was a sexual relationship, so if it was that troublesome by law, he would have been convicted - which he wasn't. So here again: Drop it, it has nothing to do with anything
I disagree with your take on the NBA and where the valuation and revenue comes from. TV rights, merchandise, and ticket sales are all related to the integrity of the NBA. The NBA is an entertainment and for profit business first, basketball game second. Also let's not forget the FBI was literally involved in the NBA betting scandal but David Stern somehow got ahead of the FBI and the FBI's case was blown up. You don't think the scandal affected the NBA? Same with Malice at the Palace? It casted a significant shadow on the league.
Esports in general can recover from scandals. We see it in real sports, politicians, large corporations, everything. It's just a matter of whether we want to or not.
Dude...the NBA has money, after Life, the Proleague basically did not. That is a fact. Has nothing to do with "what we want", sponsors decided "nope, we are the fuck outta here" and that is what happened. That happens all the time, sometimes the sponsored subject fails, sometimes it does not. In this case, it did kinda fail or atleast diminish heavily. So you can bring up the NBA another thousand times, won't bring Proleague and atleast eight sponsored teams with teamhouses back either.
Life is banned for, well, life, within the rules he agreed to play under. That is a fact that also perfectly functions without bringing up the NBA or other players from other games. The only question at all would be if Afreeca and/or ESL should unban him, since almost ten years have passed. That passing of time is literally the only argument you could make for him, nothing else. But since Life is apparently completly and 100% gone from the game/gaming community, this isn't even a real question. It is just a non-issue.
The only way the SC2 community could delegitimize its esports scene more than Blizzard already has is by allowing one of the most prominent cheaters in esports history to compete again. Even if tournament organizers wanted to do something so idiotic, it wouldn’t be lawful, not even for the kind of show matches Wax mentioned. Don’t forget that technically you still need licensing rights from Activision Blizzard to organize and broadcast tournaments and events. While they may generally give out those licenses freely or even fail to crack down on unlicensed community events, you better believe there would be an enforcement action if anyone even attempted to seriously consider something as scandalous as this.
EPT
