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Northern Ireland26633 Posts
On July 23 2023 04:33 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 02:15 QOGQOG wrote:On July 22 2023 14:46 Vindicare605 wrote:
I gotta be honest. After watching herO try and force DTs multiple games in a row in this group I have to ask the question. Do we REALLY want more Protoss in the later rounds of GSL? The problem is DTs are the only really dangerous early game on offer for Protoss. Oracles are pretty easy to shut down, and the shield battery nerfs (and, to a lesser extent, void prism nerfs) have made most anything else super aggressive bad. I mean, when's the last time you saw a cannon rush? On the other hand, greedy macro openings are also much worse, with shield battery and void ray nerfs making Protoss less stable in early defenses. So it's either DTs or try to hit a timing, which hasn't been working very well either. So the logic is that we're not going to attempt anything we KNOW isn't going to cause the damage we want so we're instead going to gamble on the riskiest thing we can try because it MIGHT catch our opponent off guard even though it becomes less and less effective the more they expect us to be desperate enough to try it? Brilliant logic. This is how we end up with a stagnant meta. I guarantee you if someone like Gumiho was playing Protoss he'd at least attempt something different even if it didn't work than keep doing the same tired shit over and over again. Relying on DT's isn't new. It's as old as SC2 itself or older.
Maybe Protoss just isn’t very good currently, and doesn’t have a huge capacity for improvement?
Classic had more success with incredibly gimmicky builds than anything standard this season. I’m including games he basically threw off a big advantage, where his initial gambit was successful.
Nothing really works. Gumi is one of my favourite players but he hasn’t really done a huge amount of meta pushing lately, he’s thrown in some off-meta builds but some of his most notable funkiness has been in TvT
Top Zergs seem to have already figured out the new herO PvZ style, which is the biggest overall meta innovation in the past 6 months across the races.
So we’re back to where we’ve often been at for seemingly ages and Protoss are just gambling on unstable builds that rely on an opponent missing a scout or misreading.
We’ve seen a temporary resurgence in Protoss results with a legitimate bug buffing Collosus range but hey, it’s confirmed not meant to be there so will be reverted shortly
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On July 23 2023 04:56 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 04:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 23 2023 02:15 QOGQOG wrote:On July 22 2023 14:46 Vindicare605 wrote:
I gotta be honest. After watching herO try and force DTs multiple games in a row in this group I have to ask the question. Do we REALLY want more Protoss in the later rounds of GSL? The problem is DTs are the only really dangerous early game on offer for Protoss. Oracles are pretty easy to shut down, and the shield battery nerfs (and, to a lesser extent, void prism nerfs) have made most anything else super aggressive bad. I mean, when's the last time you saw a cannon rush? On the other hand, greedy macro openings are also much worse, with shield battery and void ray nerfs making Protoss less stable in early defenses. So it's either DTs or try to hit a timing, which hasn't been working very well either. So the logic is that we're not going to attempt anything we KNOW isn't going to cause the damage we want so we're instead going to gamble on the riskiest thing we can try because it MIGHT catch our opponent off guard even though it becomes less and less effective the more they expect us to be desperate enough to try it? Brilliant logic. This is how we end up with a stagnant meta. I guarantee you if someone like Gumiho was playing Protoss he'd at least attempt something different even if it didn't work than keep doing the same tired shit over and over again. Relying on DT's isn't new. It's as old as SC2 itself or older. Maybe Protoss just isn’t very good currently, and doesn’t have a huge capacity for improvement? Classic had more success with incredibly gimmicky builds than anything standard this season. I’m including games he basically threw off a big advantage, where his initial gambit was successful. Nothing really works. Gumi is one of my favourite players but he hasn’t really done a huge amount of meta pushing lately, he’s thrown in some off-meta builds but some of his most notable funkiness has been in TvT Top Zergs seem to have already figured out the new herO PvZ style, which is the biggest overall meta innovation in the past 6 months across the races. So we’re back to where we’ve often been at for seemingly ages and Protoss are just gambling on unstable builds that rely on an opponent missing a scout or misreading. We’ve seen a temporary resurgence in Protoss results with a legitimate bug buffing Collosus range but hey, it’s confirmed not meant to be there so will be reverted shortly
So then we go back to my original question, just elaborated on. If we're going to keep the current Protoss design that simply rewards gimmick builds until they get figured out and don't work anymore, and we're not going to do anything to fix the core issues the race has that it has had for 13 years, then do we really WANT more Protoss in GSL?
I can't say I really do. If no one is going to even try and innovate, or if the race is just stuck in a place where innovation isn't possible (I don't believe this is 100% the case) then all we're ever going to get is a gimmick run that we feel obligated to cheer for because there's 3 races and surely ALL of them have to be equal, even though by now it's clear that one of them is badly designed.
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Northern Ireland26633 Posts
On July 23 2023 05:34 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 04:56 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2023 04:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 23 2023 02:15 QOGQOG wrote:On July 22 2023 14:46 Vindicare605 wrote:
I gotta be honest. After watching herO try and force DTs multiple games in a row in this group I have to ask the question. Do we REALLY want more Protoss in the later rounds of GSL? The problem is DTs are the only really dangerous early game on offer for Protoss. Oracles are pretty easy to shut down, and the shield battery nerfs (and, to a lesser extent, void prism nerfs) have made most anything else super aggressive bad. I mean, when's the last time you saw a cannon rush? On the other hand, greedy macro openings are also much worse, with shield battery and void ray nerfs making Protoss less stable in early defenses. So it's either DTs or try to hit a timing, which hasn't been working very well either. So the logic is that we're not going to attempt anything we KNOW isn't going to cause the damage we want so we're instead going to gamble on the riskiest thing we can try because it MIGHT catch our opponent off guard even though it becomes less and less effective the more they expect us to be desperate enough to try it? Brilliant logic. This is how we end up with a stagnant meta. I guarantee you if someone like Gumiho was playing Protoss he'd at least attempt something different even if it didn't work than keep doing the same tired shit over and over again. Relying on DT's isn't new. It's as old as SC2 itself or older. Maybe Protoss just isn’t very good currently, and doesn’t have a huge capacity for improvement? Classic had more success with incredibly gimmicky builds than anything standard this season. I’m including games he basically threw off a big advantage, where his initial gambit was successful. Nothing really works. Gumi is one of my favourite players but he hasn’t really done a huge amount of meta pushing lately, he’s thrown in some off-meta builds but some of his most notable funkiness has been in TvT Top Zergs seem to have already figured out the new herO PvZ style, which is the biggest overall meta innovation in the past 6 months across the races. So we’re back to where we’ve often been at for seemingly ages and Protoss are just gambling on unstable builds that rely on an opponent missing a scout or misreading. We’ve seen a temporary resurgence in Protoss results with a legitimate bug buffing Collosus range but hey, it’s confirmed not meant to be there so will be reverted shortly So then we go back to my original question, just elaborated on. If we're going to keep the current Protoss design that simply rewards gimmick builds until they get figured out and don't work anymore, and we're not going to do anything to fix the core issues the race has that it has had for 13 years, then do we really WANT more Protoss in GSL? I can't say I really do. If no one is going to even try and innovate, or if the race is just stuck in a place where innovation isn't possible (I don't believe this is 100% the case) then all we're ever going to get is a gimmick run that we feel obligated to cheer for because there's 3 races and surely ALL of them have to be equal, even though by now it's clear that one of them is badly designed.
Aye fair, although it’s an asymmetric game, so in that sense Terran are Zerg are just as badly designed IMO, especially Terran as it pertains to PvT
But yeah I agree
If even if one of the interracial matchups was in a decent spot currently, it just isn’t the case really.
In Trap’s ‘era’ he had legitimately stellar PvT, he’d come unstuck against Rogue or Dark but you knew he could draw even Maru and win a straight up series, which he did more than once. And it wasn’t like PvT across the board was broken, he was just very good at it.
Now it feels both PvT and PvT, at this level if you’re gonna get through it’s going to be by gimmicks. And that’s likely to not work a second time, so as a Protoss fan you’re hoping someone sneaks through only to get stomped later, versus someone else who might have a legitimate shot, which no I don’t like
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It's hard to even parse what you're saying due to the condescension, but I'll try:
On July 23 2023 04:33 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 02:15 QOGQOG wrote:On July 22 2023 14:46 Vindicare605 wrote:
I gotta be honest. After watching herO try and force DTs multiple games in a row in this group I have to ask the question. Do we REALLY want more Protoss in the later rounds of GSL? The problem is DTs are the only really dangerous early game on offer for Protoss. Oracles are pretty easy to shut down, and the shield battery nerfs (and, to a lesser extent, void prism nerfs) have made most anything else super aggressive bad. I mean, when's the last time you saw a cannon rush? On the other hand, greedy macro openings are also much worse, with shield battery and void ray nerfs making Protoss less stable in early defenses. So it's either DTs or try to hit a timing, which hasn't been working very well either. So the logic is that we're not going to attempt anything we KNOW isn't going to cause the damage we want so we're instead going to gamble on the riskiest thing we can try because it MIGHT catch our opponent off guard even though it becomes less and less effective the more they expect us to be desperate enough to try it?
I understand this summary is meant to reveal some flaw in what I said, but I'm not sure how. Players don't do things they know won't work. That checks out. They go DTs, which can work. Makes sense. But because it's predictable the DTs don't tend to work either. I didn't spell this part out as much in what I said since I thought it was obvious from the games themselves, but yeah, that follows. Not seeing any issues revealed by REPHRASING with more CAPITALIZATION.
On July 23 2023 04:33 Vindicare605 wrote:
Brilliant logic. This is how we end up with a stagnant meta. I guarantee you if someone like Gumiho was playing Protoss he'd at least attempt something different even if it didn't work than keep doing the same tired shit over and over again.
Right, Classic and herO are notably not innovative and have never come up with new strategies to take the meta in a different direction. MaxPax? Never had a build named after him. Sorry, maybe the condescension's infectious.
Just in case it's unclear: my argument is that the current set of nerfs to Protoss have vastly limited the breadth of strategies that Protoss can use. So they rely on a smaller set of strategies (like going DT over and over again). It's hard to "prove" that there are fewer strategies that could be found but haven't, since by definition these hypothetical strategies aren't known yet. But if Protoss is weaker on early game offense, on early game defense, and also kind of sucks at getting to, much less winning, the late game, it's hard to imagine that there's some new meta waiting to be found where balance is fine.
On July 23 2023 04:33 Vindicare605 wrote:
Relying on DT's isn't new. It's as old as SC2 itself or older.
Pro Protoss players have not "relied" on DTs for 13 or 25 years. They mix them in some. Given your first post was complaining about herO overusing DTs, I'm not sure why you're now claiming that's a long-running problem.
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On July 23 2023 05:34 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 04:56 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2023 04:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 23 2023 02:15 QOGQOG wrote:On July 22 2023 14:46 Vindicare605 wrote:
I gotta be honest. After watching herO try and force DTs multiple games in a row in this group I have to ask the question. Do we REALLY want more Protoss in the later rounds of GSL? The problem is DTs are the only really dangerous early game on offer for Protoss. Oracles are pretty easy to shut down, and the shield battery nerfs (and, to a lesser extent, void prism nerfs) have made most anything else super aggressive bad. I mean, when's the last time you saw a cannon rush? On the other hand, greedy macro openings are also much worse, with shield battery and void ray nerfs making Protoss less stable in early defenses. So it's either DTs or try to hit a timing, which hasn't been working very well either. So the logic is that we're not going to attempt anything we KNOW isn't going to cause the damage we want so we're instead going to gamble on the riskiest thing we can try because it MIGHT catch our opponent off guard even though it becomes less and less effective the more they expect us to be desperate enough to try it? Brilliant logic. This is how we end up with a stagnant meta. I guarantee you if someone like Gumiho was playing Protoss he'd at least attempt something different even if it didn't work than keep doing the same tired shit over and over again. Relying on DT's isn't new. It's as old as SC2 itself or older. Maybe Protoss just isn’t very good currently, and doesn’t have a huge capacity for improvement? Classic had more success with incredibly gimmicky builds than anything standard this season. I’m including games he basically threw off a big advantage, where his initial gambit was successful. Nothing really works. Gumi is one of my favourite players but he hasn’t really done a huge amount of meta pushing lately, he’s thrown in some off-meta builds but some of his most notable funkiness has been in TvT Top Zergs seem to have already figured out the new herO PvZ style, which is the biggest overall meta innovation in the past 6 months across the races. So we’re back to where we’ve often been at for seemingly ages and Protoss are just gambling on unstable builds that rely on an opponent missing a scout or misreading. We’ve seen a temporary resurgence in Protoss results with a legitimate bug buffing Collosus range but hey, it’s confirmed not meant to be there so will be reverted shortly So then we go back to my original question, just elaborated on. If we're going to keep the current Protoss design that simply rewards gimmick builds until they get figured out and don't work anymore, and we're not going to do anything to fix the core issues the race has that it has had for 13 years, then do we really WANT more Protoss in GSL?
Protoss has had plenty of periods where it didn't have to play gimmicky builds. Just look for any period where people were whining about their "unbeatable endgame composition" instead. And Protoss is certainly not the only race that's been rewarding gimmick plays for 13 years, I'm not taking that shit from the race that considers grabbing all your workers and a-moving the opponent's base a viable strategy. And as for races with "core issues that need fixing", there's no way Protoss beats out the Zerg Queen, a unit that can't fulfill it economic and military roles for the same unit cost, yet has to.
It's not a design issue, it's a balance issue.
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On July 23 2023 07:28 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 05:34 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 23 2023 04:56 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2023 04:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 23 2023 02:15 QOGQOG wrote:On July 22 2023 14:46 Vindicare605 wrote:
I gotta be honest. After watching herO try and force DTs multiple games in a row in this group I have to ask the question. Do we REALLY want more Protoss in the later rounds of GSL? The problem is DTs are the only really dangerous early game on offer for Protoss. Oracles are pretty easy to shut down, and the shield battery nerfs (and, to a lesser extent, void prism nerfs) have made most anything else super aggressive bad. I mean, when's the last time you saw a cannon rush? On the other hand, greedy macro openings are also much worse, with shield battery and void ray nerfs making Protoss less stable in early defenses. So it's either DTs or try to hit a timing, which hasn't been working very well either. So the logic is that we're not going to attempt anything we KNOW isn't going to cause the damage we want so we're instead going to gamble on the riskiest thing we can try because it MIGHT catch our opponent off guard even though it becomes less and less effective the more they expect us to be desperate enough to try it? Brilliant logic. This is how we end up with a stagnant meta. I guarantee you if someone like Gumiho was playing Protoss he'd at least attempt something different even if it didn't work than keep doing the same tired shit over and over again. Relying on DT's isn't new. It's as old as SC2 itself or older. Maybe Protoss just isn’t very good currently, and doesn’t have a huge capacity for improvement? Classic had more success with incredibly gimmicky builds than anything standard this season. I’m including games he basically threw off a big advantage, where his initial gambit was successful. Nothing really works. Gumi is one of my favourite players but he hasn’t really done a huge amount of meta pushing lately, he’s thrown in some off-meta builds but some of his most notable funkiness has been in TvT Top Zergs seem to have already figured out the new herO PvZ style, which is the biggest overall meta innovation in the past 6 months across the races. So we’re back to where we’ve often been at for seemingly ages and Protoss are just gambling on unstable builds that rely on an opponent missing a scout or misreading. We’ve seen a temporary resurgence in Protoss results with a legitimate bug buffing Collosus range but hey, it’s confirmed not meant to be there so will be reverted shortly So then we go back to my original question, just elaborated on. If we're going to keep the current Protoss design that simply rewards gimmick builds until they get figured out and don't work anymore, and we're not going to do anything to fix the core issues the race has that it has had for 13 years, then do we really WANT more Protoss in GSL? Protoss has had plenty of periods where it didn't have to play gimmicky builds. Just look for any period where people were whining about their "unbeatable endgame composition" instead. And Protoss is certainly not the only race that's been rewarding gimmick plays for 13 years, I'm not taking that shit from the race that considers grabbing all your workers and a-moving the opponent's base a viable strategy. And as for races with "core issues that need fixing", there's no way Protoss beats out the Zerg Queen, a unit that can't fulfill it economic and military roles for the same unit cost, yet has to. It's not a design issue, it's a balance issue.
I'm not saying that gimmick builds aren't allowed or that the other races don't have them. I'm saying Protoss is stuck in this cycle of ALWAYS relying on gimmick all ins in order to win tournaments. If it's not one build it's another.
Oh unless it's their hated late game deathball comps that someone else mentioned. Ok valid. Protoss has since WoL been a race that unless it's killing you with an all in, it is turtling to a single unbeatable deathball. Does that sound familiar to anybody because that's the Protoss race that I've known since 2010 with VERY few periods of in between.
In the modern LotV meta where the game is spread out and not concentrated into one tiny area that late game army comp reliance doesn't really work, it doesn't work with ANY of the races and yet Protoss has nothing else beyond that unless it kills you with a timing attack. Why is that? Because of the core problems the race has with the way it's designed. 13 years of experiencing this shit. How many more do you want before you'll see it's a fundamental problem with how Protoss is designed? They might fix the balance by just making their timings or deathballs stronger, but then we're right back to where we were before.
It's just a badly designed race, has been from the start and no one that's playing it seems to want to play any other way to prove me wrong.
You're seriously going to look at the games that herO played the other night and say he lost because the game isn't balanced? Really? He lost because he was proxying Dark Shrines, and constantly getting his attempts to sneak something past his opponent scouted and stomped on and he had nothing else left besides it. It's hilarious that people defend stuff like this as "the only way to play."
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Northern Ireland26633 Posts
On July 23 2023 07:28 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 05:34 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 23 2023 04:56 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2023 04:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 23 2023 02:15 QOGQOG wrote:On July 22 2023 14:46 Vindicare605 wrote:
I gotta be honest. After watching herO try and force DTs multiple games in a row in this group I have to ask the question. Do we REALLY want more Protoss in the later rounds of GSL? The problem is DTs are the only really dangerous early game on offer for Protoss. Oracles are pretty easy to shut down, and the shield battery nerfs (and, to a lesser extent, void prism nerfs) have made most anything else super aggressive bad. I mean, when's the last time you saw a cannon rush? On the other hand, greedy macro openings are also much worse, with shield battery and void ray nerfs making Protoss less stable in early defenses. So it's either DTs or try to hit a timing, which hasn't been working very well either. So the logic is that we're not going to attempt anything we KNOW isn't going to cause the damage we want so we're instead going to gamble on the riskiest thing we can try because it MIGHT catch our opponent off guard even though it becomes less and less effective the more they expect us to be desperate enough to try it? Brilliant logic. This is how we end up with a stagnant meta. I guarantee you if someone like Gumiho was playing Protoss he'd at least attempt something different even if it didn't work than keep doing the same tired shit over and over again. Relying on DT's isn't new. It's as old as SC2 itself or older. Maybe Protoss just isn’t very good currently, and doesn’t have a huge capacity for improvement? Classic had more success with incredibly gimmicky builds than anything standard this season. I’m including games he basically threw off a big advantage, where his initial gambit was successful. Nothing really works. Gumi is one of my favourite players but he hasn’t really done a huge amount of meta pushing lately, he’s thrown in some off-meta builds but some of his most notable funkiness has been in TvT Top Zergs seem to have already figured out the new herO PvZ style, which is the biggest overall meta innovation in the past 6 months across the races. So we’re back to where we’ve often been at for seemingly ages and Protoss are just gambling on unstable builds that rely on an opponent missing a scout or misreading. We’ve seen a temporary resurgence in Protoss results with a legitimate bug buffing Collosus range but hey, it’s confirmed not meant to be there so will be reverted shortly So then we go back to my original question, just elaborated on. If we're going to keep the current Protoss design that simply rewards gimmick builds until they get figured out and don't work anymore, and we're not going to do anything to fix the core issues the race has that it has had for 13 years, then do we really WANT more Protoss in GSL? Protoss has had plenty of periods where it didn't have to play gimmicky builds. Just look for any period where people were whining about their "unbeatable endgame composition" instead. And Protoss is certainly not the only race that's been rewarding gimmick plays for 13 years, I'm not taking that shit from the race that considers grabbing all your workers and a-moving the opponent's base a viable strategy. And as for races with "core issues that need fixing", there's no way Protoss beats out the Zerg Queen, a unit that can't fulfill it economic and military roles for the same unit cost, yet has to. It's not a design issue, it's a balance issue.
It’s a design issue
Balance can conceivably be fixed with tweaking a few numbers here or there. Design things are more fundamental.
Let’s consider Legacy, Protoss got a new toy in the Adept and was shredding face with it for a prolonged period. Until it got nerfed and wasn’t.
Let’s consider that in terms of early/midgame comps not actually a huge amount changed with Terran.
But with eco ramp up Protoss needed shield batteries (after the old Mommashipcore/overcharge just to hold basic Terran pushes.
They still can’t reliably hold those pushes while being greedy enough to enter lategame on a good footing. A similar dynamic exists in PvZ
Either they’re given a tool that’s OP, which is also bad or we just consistently see the same pattern. Reliance on gimmicky, risky play to compensate for a lack of stable macro styles.
Protoss core units aren’t strong, they’re not high DPS microable like Terran. They’re not numerous and really fast like Zerg for map control.
They’re good in an all-in before tech hits in, or they’re good in a deathball.
As Vindicare says (40k reference btw?) Legacy by having a fast eco ramp up, as well as requiring more spread absolutely exacerbates core design problems
At a certain level (and probably why Toss keeps getting nerfed) these factors aren’t super impactful, at the top level they clearly are
Protoss is so undertooled that it has giant, completely overpowered bandaids to their weakness to big floods of tier 1 units, and mobility with recall respectively and it’s STILL lagging
Design decisions, and not good ones. And not purely Toss
Making bio so, so much better than gateway units and incredibly microable isn’t ‘good design’ either just because people like the micro.
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On July 23 2023 08:25 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 07:28 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On July 23 2023 05:34 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 23 2023 04:56 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2023 04:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 23 2023 02:15 QOGQOG wrote:On July 22 2023 14:46 Vindicare605 wrote:
I gotta be honest. After watching herO try and force DTs multiple games in a row in this group I have to ask the question. Do we REALLY want more Protoss in the later rounds of GSL? The problem is DTs are the only really dangerous early game on offer for Protoss. Oracles are pretty easy to shut down, and the shield battery nerfs (and, to a lesser extent, void prism nerfs) have made most anything else super aggressive bad. I mean, when's the last time you saw a cannon rush? On the other hand, greedy macro openings are also much worse, with shield battery and void ray nerfs making Protoss less stable in early defenses. So it's either DTs or try to hit a timing, which hasn't been working very well either. So the logic is that we're not going to attempt anything we KNOW isn't going to cause the damage we want so we're instead going to gamble on the riskiest thing we can try because it MIGHT catch our opponent off guard even though it becomes less and less effective the more they expect us to be desperate enough to try it? Brilliant logic. This is how we end up with a stagnant meta. I guarantee you if someone like Gumiho was playing Protoss he'd at least attempt something different even if it didn't work than keep doing the same tired shit over and over again. Relying on DT's isn't new. It's as old as SC2 itself or older. Maybe Protoss just isn’t very good currently, and doesn’t have a huge capacity for improvement? Classic had more success with incredibly gimmicky builds than anything standard this season. I’m including games he basically threw off a big advantage, where his initial gambit was successful. Nothing really works. Gumi is one of my favourite players but he hasn’t really done a huge amount of meta pushing lately, he’s thrown in some off-meta builds but some of his most notable funkiness has been in TvT Top Zergs seem to have already figured out the new herO PvZ style, which is the biggest overall meta innovation in the past 6 months across the races. So we’re back to where we’ve often been at for seemingly ages and Protoss are just gambling on unstable builds that rely on an opponent missing a scout or misreading. We’ve seen a temporary resurgence in Protoss results with a legitimate bug buffing Collosus range but hey, it’s confirmed not meant to be there so will be reverted shortly So then we go back to my original question, just elaborated on. If we're going to keep the current Protoss design that simply rewards gimmick builds until they get figured out and don't work anymore, and we're not going to do anything to fix the core issues the race has that it has had for 13 years, then do we really WANT more Protoss in GSL? Protoss has had plenty of periods where it didn't have to play gimmicky builds. Just look for any period where people were whining about their "unbeatable endgame composition" instead. And Protoss is certainly not the only race that's been rewarding gimmick plays for 13 years, I'm not taking that shit from the race that considers grabbing all your workers and a-moving the opponent's base a viable strategy. And as for races with "core issues that need fixing", there's no way Protoss beats out the Zerg Queen, a unit that can't fulfill it economic and military roles for the same unit cost, yet has to. It's not a design issue, it's a balance issue. It’s a design issue As Vindicare says (40k reference btw?) Legacy by having a fast eco ramp up, as well as requiring more spread absolutely exacerbates core design problems
Indeed it is.
Making bio so, so much better than gateway units and incredibly microable isn’t ‘good design’ either just because people like the micro.
Oh I'm so glad you brought this up because this speaks to the BIGGEST of the Protoss design issues. Bio being strong is fine vs Terran, it's fine even when the opposing Terran makes no Bio units. It's fine vs Zerg too. Why isn't it fine vs Protoss.
Well let's just for a moment try and imagine a game where Gateway units were as strong as Bio units and could trade evenly with them 1 to 1. Or imagine a scenario where Protoss Gateway units were more mobile and able to chase down Zerg armies on creep. What's the giant elephant in the room in that scenario? Oh yea! WARP GATE! You CAN'T have Gateway units EVER anywhere near as versatile and cost effective as Bio units are or as mobile as Zerg units are because Protoss can instantly reinforce them regardless of distance or terrain immediately onto the battlefield. It would make them COMPLETELY broken as an attacking force in an all in.
Blizzard HAS to balance Protoss around the ability to warp their units in as reinforcements. They HAVE to or else the game would be completely busted beyond belief.
Blizzard knows they have to do this, and have specifically said they never want to change how this works because fucking Warp Gate is too cool to EVER consider changing. /barf.
This isn't even an opinion or a subjective argument. I dare anyone to figure out a way to make Protoss gateway units better so they can fight independently of their Robotics support units on par with Zerg and Terran units and not immediately make Protoss all ins unholdable and completely overpowered. I guarantee you if there was a way to do this it would have already happened.
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Northern Ireland26633 Posts
On July 23 2023 08:33 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 08:25 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2023 07:28 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On July 23 2023 05:34 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 23 2023 04:56 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2023 04:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 23 2023 02:15 QOGQOG wrote:On July 22 2023 14:46 Vindicare605 wrote:
I gotta be honest. After watching herO try and force DTs multiple games in a row in this group I have to ask the question. Do we REALLY want more Protoss in the later rounds of GSL? The problem is DTs are the only really dangerous early game on offer for Protoss. Oracles are pretty easy to shut down, and the shield battery nerfs (and, to a lesser extent, void prism nerfs) have made most anything else super aggressive bad. I mean, when's the last time you saw a cannon rush? On the other hand, greedy macro openings are also much worse, with shield battery and void ray nerfs making Protoss less stable in early defenses. So it's either DTs or try to hit a timing, which hasn't been working very well either. So the logic is that we're not going to attempt anything we KNOW isn't going to cause the damage we want so we're instead going to gamble on the riskiest thing we can try because it MIGHT catch our opponent off guard even though it becomes less and less effective the more they expect us to be desperate enough to try it? Brilliant logic. This is how we end up with a stagnant meta. I guarantee you if someone like Gumiho was playing Protoss he'd at least attempt something different even if it didn't work than keep doing the same tired shit over and over again. Relying on DT's isn't new. It's as old as SC2 itself or older. Maybe Protoss just isn’t very good currently, and doesn’t have a huge capacity for improvement? Classic had more success with incredibly gimmicky builds than anything standard this season. I’m including games he basically threw off a big advantage, where his initial gambit was successful. Nothing really works. Gumi is one of my favourite players but he hasn’t really done a huge amount of meta pushing lately, he’s thrown in some off-meta builds but some of his most notable funkiness has been in TvT Top Zergs seem to have already figured out the new herO PvZ style, which is the biggest overall meta innovation in the past 6 months across the races. So we’re back to where we’ve often been at for seemingly ages and Protoss are just gambling on unstable builds that rely on an opponent missing a scout or misreading. We’ve seen a temporary resurgence in Protoss results with a legitimate bug buffing Collosus range but hey, it’s confirmed not meant to be there so will be reverted shortly So then we go back to my original question, just elaborated on. If we're going to keep the current Protoss design that simply rewards gimmick builds until they get figured out and don't work anymore, and we're not going to do anything to fix the core issues the race has that it has had for 13 years, then do we really WANT more Protoss in GSL? Protoss has had plenty of periods where it didn't have to play gimmicky builds. Just look for any period where people were whining about their "unbeatable endgame composition" instead. And Protoss is certainly not the only race that's been rewarding gimmick plays for 13 years, I'm not taking that shit from the race that considers grabbing all your workers and a-moving the opponent's base a viable strategy. And as for races with "core issues that need fixing", there's no way Protoss beats out the Zerg Queen, a unit that can't fulfill it economic and military roles for the same unit cost, yet has to. It's not a design issue, it's a balance issue. It’s a design issue As Vindicare says (40k reference btw?) Legacy by having a fast eco ramp up, as well as requiring more spread absolutely exacerbates core design problems Indeed it is. Show nested quote + Making bio so, so much better than gateway units and incredibly microable isn’t ‘good design’ either just because people like the micro. Oh I'm so glad you brought this up because this speaks to the BIGGEST of the Protoss design issues. Bio being strong is fine vs Terran, it's fine even when the opposing Terran makes no Bio units. It's fine vs Zerg too. Why isn't it fine vs Protoss. Well let's just for a moment try and imagine a game where Gateway units were as strong as Bio units and could trade evenly with them 1 to 1. Or imagine a scenario where Protoss Gateway units were more mobile and able to chase down Zerg armies on creep. What's the giant elephant in the room in that scenario? Oh yea! WARP GATE! You CAN'T have Gateway units EVER anywhere near as versatile and cost effective as Bio units are or as mobile as Zerg units are because Protoss can instantly reinforce them regardless of distance or terrain immediately onto the battlefield. It would make them COMPLETELY broken as an attacking force in an all in. Blizzard HAS to balance Protoss around the ability to warp their units in as reinforcements. They HAVE to or else the game would be completely busted beyond belief. Blizzard knows they have to do this, and have specifically said they never want to change how this works because fucking Warp Gate is too cool to EVER consider changing. /barf. This isn't even an opinion or a subjective argument. I dare anyone to figure out a way to make Protoss gateway units better so they can fight independently of their Robotics support units on par with Zerg and Terran units and not immediately make Protoss all ins unholdable and completely overpowered. I guarantee you if there was a way to do this it would have already happened.
Was just a terrible decision.
Sure sometimes playing I quite enjoyed the ‘oh shit there’s a drop coming in’ and the rapid response
Objectively, no, silly idea. It just tramples on fundamentals of army movement and reinforcement lines and the tradeoff is basically being gimped if you do wanna play a straight up macro game
Feels like something that could have happily stayed in campaign where balance isn’t a consideration, like marine drop pods and respawning lings
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On July 23 2023 08:52 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 08:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 23 2023 08:25 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2023 07:28 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On July 23 2023 05:34 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 23 2023 04:56 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2023 04:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 23 2023 02:15 QOGQOG wrote:On July 22 2023 14:46 Vindicare605 wrote:
I gotta be honest. After watching herO try and force DTs multiple games in a row in this group I have to ask the question. Do we REALLY want more Protoss in the later rounds of GSL? The problem is DTs are the only really dangerous early game on offer for Protoss. Oracles are pretty easy to shut down, and the shield battery nerfs (and, to a lesser extent, void prism nerfs) have made most anything else super aggressive bad. I mean, when's the last time you saw a cannon rush? On the other hand, greedy macro openings are also much worse, with shield battery and void ray nerfs making Protoss less stable in early defenses. So it's either DTs or try to hit a timing, which hasn't been working very well either. So the logic is that we're not going to attempt anything we KNOW isn't going to cause the damage we want so we're instead going to gamble on the riskiest thing we can try because it MIGHT catch our opponent off guard even though it becomes less and less effective the more they expect us to be desperate enough to try it? Brilliant logic. This is how we end up with a stagnant meta. I guarantee you if someone like Gumiho was playing Protoss he'd at least attempt something different even if it didn't work than keep doing the same tired shit over and over again. Relying on DT's isn't new. It's as old as SC2 itself or older. Maybe Protoss just isn’t very good currently, and doesn’t have a huge capacity for improvement? Classic had more success with incredibly gimmicky builds than anything standard this season. I’m including games he basically threw off a big advantage, where his initial gambit was successful. Nothing really works. Gumi is one of my favourite players but he hasn’t really done a huge amount of meta pushing lately, he’s thrown in some off-meta builds but some of his most notable funkiness has been in TvT Top Zergs seem to have already figured out the new herO PvZ style, which is the biggest overall meta innovation in the past 6 months across the races. So we’re back to where we’ve often been at for seemingly ages and Protoss are just gambling on unstable builds that rely on an opponent missing a scout or misreading. We’ve seen a temporary resurgence in Protoss results with a legitimate bug buffing Collosus range but hey, it’s confirmed not meant to be there so will be reverted shortly So then we go back to my original question, just elaborated on. If we're going to keep the current Protoss design that simply rewards gimmick builds until they get figured out and don't work anymore, and we're not going to do anything to fix the core issues the race has that it has had for 13 years, then do we really WANT more Protoss in GSL? Protoss has had plenty of periods where it didn't have to play gimmicky builds. Just look for any period where people were whining about their "unbeatable endgame composition" instead. And Protoss is certainly not the only race that's been rewarding gimmick plays for 13 years, I'm not taking that shit from the race that considers grabbing all your workers and a-moving the opponent's base a viable strategy. And as for races with "core issues that need fixing", there's no way Protoss beats out the Zerg Queen, a unit that can't fulfill it economic and military roles for the same unit cost, yet has to. It's not a design issue, it's a balance issue. It’s a design issue As Vindicare says (40k reference btw?) Legacy by having a fast eco ramp up, as well as requiring more spread absolutely exacerbates core design problems Indeed it is. Making bio so, so much better than gateway units and incredibly microable isn’t ‘good design’ either just because people like the micro. Oh I'm so glad you brought this up because this speaks to the BIGGEST of the Protoss design issues. Bio being strong is fine vs Terran, it's fine even when the opposing Terran makes no Bio units. It's fine vs Zerg too. Why isn't it fine vs Protoss. Well let's just for a moment try and imagine a game where Gateway units were as strong as Bio units and could trade evenly with them 1 to 1. Or imagine a scenario where Protoss Gateway units were more mobile and able to chase down Zerg armies on creep. What's the giant elephant in the room in that scenario? Oh yea! WARP GATE! You CAN'T have Gateway units EVER anywhere near as versatile and cost effective as Bio units are or as mobile as Zerg units are because Protoss can instantly reinforce them regardless of distance or terrain immediately onto the battlefield. It would make them COMPLETELY broken as an attacking force in an all in. Blizzard HAS to balance Protoss around the ability to warp their units in as reinforcements. They HAVE to or else the game would be completely busted beyond belief. Blizzard knows they have to do this, and have specifically said they never want to change how this works because fucking Warp Gate is too cool to EVER consider changing. /barf. This isn't even an opinion or a subjective argument. I dare anyone to figure out a way to make Protoss gateway units better so they can fight independently of their Robotics support units on par with Zerg and Terran units and not immediately make Protoss all ins unholdable and completely overpowered. I guarantee you if there was a way to do this it would have already happened. Was just a terrible decision. Sure sometimes playing I quite enjoyed the ‘oh shit there’s a drop coming in’ and the rapid response Objectively, no, silly idea. It just tramples on fundamentals of army movement and reinforcement lines and the tradeoff is basically being gimped if you do wanna play a straight up macro game Feels like something that could have happily stayed in campaign where balance isn’t a consideration, like marine drop pods and respawning lings
It wouldn't even be so bad if it was a very late game option like Recall was in SC:BW. But the fact that Blizzard insists on having it as the "core" mechanic to the race is why they HAVE to be balanced around it from the start to finish.
It's so frustrating because I see how fun Protoss is to play and watch in Brood War with their core army units forming the backbone of their army all game long and I just see how pathetic they are in comparison in SC2. It's because of that one mechanic that we can never have a Protoss that resembles what we had in Brood War.
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I agree that Warp Gate could work as a mid / late game upgrade, then GW units could be buffed a bit.
And make GW faster than WG (or at least same speed). In the late game you have enough of them anyway.
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On July 23 2023 09:08 ZeroByte13 wrote:
I agree that Warp Gate could work as a mid / late game upgrade, then GW units could be buffed a bit.
And make GW faster than WG (or at least same speed). In the late game you have enough of them anyway.
Keep in mind, I don't think this is the ONLY problem with Protoss design. A lot of their units are just horribly designed, again to be too powerful in a sneaky cheese and not powerful enough in a standard game, and I'm not talking about Dark Templar here, they are a carry over from Brood War where they work just in standard games there. But niche units you can live with, a niche mechanic that the entire race is balanced around is not ok, not if you want your race to actually be a balanced RTS faction with multiple valid playstyles.
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On July 23 2023 08:56 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 08:52 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2023 08:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 23 2023 08:25 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2023 07:28 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On July 23 2023 05:34 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 23 2023 04:56 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2023 04:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 23 2023 02:15 QOGQOG wrote:On July 22 2023 14:46 Vindicare605 wrote:
I gotta be honest. After watching herO try and force DTs multiple games in a row in this group I have to ask the question. Do we REALLY want more Protoss in the later rounds of GSL? The problem is DTs are the only really dangerous early game on offer for Protoss. Oracles are pretty easy to shut down, and the shield battery nerfs (and, to a lesser extent, void prism nerfs) have made most anything else super aggressive bad. I mean, when's the last time you saw a cannon rush? On the other hand, greedy macro openings are also much worse, with shield battery and void ray nerfs making Protoss less stable in early defenses. So it's either DTs or try to hit a timing, which hasn't been working very well either. So the logic is that we're not going to attempt anything we KNOW isn't going to cause the damage we want so we're instead going to gamble on the riskiest thing we can try because it MIGHT catch our opponent off guard even though it becomes less and less effective the more they expect us to be desperate enough to try it? Brilliant logic. This is how we end up with a stagnant meta. I guarantee you if someone like Gumiho was playing Protoss he'd at least attempt something different even if it didn't work than keep doing the same tired shit over and over again. Relying on DT's isn't new. It's as old as SC2 itself or older. Maybe Protoss just isn’t very good currently, and doesn’t have a huge capacity for improvement? Classic had more success with incredibly gimmicky builds than anything standard this season. I’m including games he basically threw off a big advantage, where his initial gambit was successful. Nothing really works. Gumi is one of my favourite players but he hasn’t really done a huge amount of meta pushing lately, he’s thrown in some off-meta builds but some of his most notable funkiness has been in TvT Top Zergs seem to have already figured out the new herO PvZ style, which is the biggest overall meta innovation in the past 6 months across the races. So we’re back to where we’ve often been at for seemingly ages and Protoss are just gambling on unstable builds that rely on an opponent missing a scout or misreading. We’ve seen a temporary resurgence in Protoss results with a legitimate bug buffing Collosus range but hey, it’s confirmed not meant to be there so will be reverted shortly So then we go back to my original question, just elaborated on. If we're going to keep the current Protoss design that simply rewards gimmick builds until they get figured out and don't work anymore, and we're not going to do anything to fix the core issues the race has that it has had for 13 years, then do we really WANT more Protoss in GSL? Protoss has had plenty of periods where it didn't have to play gimmicky builds. Just look for any period where people were whining about their "unbeatable endgame composition" instead. And Protoss is certainly not the only race that's been rewarding gimmick plays for 13 years, I'm not taking that shit from the race that considers grabbing all your workers and a-moving the opponent's base a viable strategy. And as for races with "core issues that need fixing", there's no way Protoss beats out the Zerg Queen, a unit that can't fulfill it economic and military roles for the same unit cost, yet has to. It's not a design issue, it's a balance issue. It’s a design issue As Vindicare says (40k reference btw?) Legacy by having a fast eco ramp up, as well as requiring more spread absolutely exacerbates core design problems Indeed it is. Making bio so, so much better than gateway units and incredibly microable isn’t ‘good design’ either just because people like the micro. Oh I'm so glad you brought this up because this speaks to the BIGGEST of the Protoss design issues. Bio being strong is fine vs Terran, it's fine even when the opposing Terran makes no Bio units. It's fine vs Zerg too. Why isn't it fine vs Protoss. Well let's just for a moment try and imagine a game where Gateway units were as strong as Bio units and could trade evenly with them 1 to 1. Or imagine a scenario where Protoss Gateway units were more mobile and able to chase down Zerg armies on creep. What's the giant elephant in the room in that scenario? Oh yea! WARP GATE! You CAN'T have Gateway units EVER anywhere near as versatile and cost effective as Bio units are or as mobile as Zerg units are because Protoss can instantly reinforce them regardless of distance or terrain immediately onto the battlefield. It would make them COMPLETELY broken as an attacking force in an all in. Blizzard HAS to balance Protoss around the ability to warp their units in as reinforcements. They HAVE to or else the game would be completely busted beyond belief. Blizzard knows they have to do this, and have specifically said they never want to change how this works because fucking Warp Gate is too cool to EVER consider changing. /barf. This isn't even an opinion or a subjective argument. I dare anyone to figure out a way to make Protoss gateway units better so they can fight independently of their Robotics support units on par with Zerg and Terran units and not immediately make Protoss all ins unholdable and completely overpowered. I guarantee you if there was a way to do this it would have already happened. Was just a terrible decision. Sure sometimes playing I quite enjoyed the ‘oh shit there’s a drop coming in’ and the rapid response Objectively, no, silly idea. It just tramples on fundamentals of army movement and reinforcement lines and the tradeoff is basically being gimped if you do wanna play a straight up macro game Feels like something that could have happily stayed in campaign where balance isn’t a consideration, like marine drop pods and respawning lings It wouldn't even be so bad if it was a very late game option like Recall was in SC:BW. But the fact that Blizzard insists on having it as the "core" mechanic to the race is why they HAVE to be balanced around it from the start to finish. It's so frustrating because I see how fun Protoss is to play and watch in Brood War with their core army units forming the backbone of their army all game long and I just see how pathetic they are in comparison in SC2. It's because of that one mechanic that we can never have a Protoss that resembles what we had in Brood War.
The Zealot gets hit the hardest with this. In Brood War it's a legitimately threatening unit, especially early, and you'll rarely completely phase them out. Not so in SC2. The other tier one units, Zerglings and Marines, are useful all game. You can do multiple things with them. Zealots though? Worthless when first made, and even into the mid/late game they're typically only used for harassment since splash wrecks them and their attacks are actively anti-microed by the game.
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On July 23 2023 08:03 Vindicare605 wrote:
I'm not saying that gimmick builds aren't allowed or that the other races don't have them. I'm saying Protoss is stuck in this cycle of ALWAYS relying on gimmick all ins in order to win tournaments. If it's not one build it's another.
Oh unless it's their hated late game deathball comps that someone else mentioned. Ok valid.
That was me. I'm the one who mentioned it. And now, even though your entire position was "Protoss shouldn't exist because they rely on gimmicky builds" and you've admitted the reason for your conclusion was wrong, instead of changing your conclusion you've just decided that when they rely on stable late game compositions is also a reason they shouldn't exist. Somehow.
On July 23 2023 08:03 Vindicare605 wrote:In the modern LotV meta where the game is spread out and not concentrated into one tiny area that late game army comp reliance doesn't really work, it doesn't work with ANY of the races and yet Protoss has nothing else beyond that unless it kills you with a timing attack. Why is that? Because of the core problems the race has with the way it's designed. 13 years of experiencing this shit. How many more do you want before you'll see it's a fundamental problem with how Protoss is designed? They might fix the balance by just making their timings or deathballs stronger, but then we're right back to where we were before.
It's just a badly designed race, has been from the start and no one that's playing it seems to want to play any other way to prove me wrong.
You're seriously going to look at the games that herO played the other night and say he lost because the game isn't balanced? Really? He lost because he was proxying Dark Shrines, and constantly getting his attempts to sneak something past his opponent scouted and stomped on and he had nothing else left besides it. It's hilarious that people defend stuff like this as "the only way to play."
In fact the only reason why Hero's games were so cheese heavy is because of how hard Protoss think it is to win in macro games vs Terran. Cheese builds by their very nature carry enormous risk that no top tier pro wants to take on EVERY game unless they feel like they have to.
If Hero felt confident in his PvT standard play he wouldnt be proxying Dark Shrines EVERY game.
On July 23 2023 08:25 WombaT wrote:
It’s a design issue
Balance can conceivably be fixed with tweaking a few numbers here or there. Design things are more fundamental.
Let’s consider Legacy, Protoss got a new toy in the Adept and was shredding face with it for a prolonged period. Until it got nerfed and wasn’t.
This is literally what happened to Reapers when they were new.
On July 23 2023 08:25 WombaT wrote:Let’s consider that in terms of early/midgame comps not actually a huge amount changed with Terran.
But with eco ramp up Protoss needed shield batteries (after the old Mommashipcore/overcharge just to hold basic Terran pushes.
They still can’t reliably hold those pushes while being greedy enough to enter lategame on a good footing. A similar dynamic exists in PvZ
Either they’re given a tool that’s OP, which is also bad or we just consistently see the same pattern. Reliance on gimmicky, risky play to compensate for a lack of stable macro styles.
What makes a gimmicky unit you rely on "well designed" as opposed to "badly designed"? Terran were also given an OP tool to shore up their weaknesses in the Medivac Dropship. It adds sustainability to their glass cannon units, makes Stim a viable upgrade, allows them to save their armies when they're caught out of position, take bad engagements or are otherwise outmaneuvered, to say nothing of its offensive abilities. You call Recall an "overpowered band-aid" but Medivacs do so much more, so much more efficiently. What options does Terran have to win without Medivacs? Gimmicky, risky play? Or the absolute disaster that is mech? Why is it okay that Terran is completely dependent on this unit for defense, map control as well as offense, but it's a problem that Protoss needs Shield Batteries to survive early Terran pushes?
And again, Zerg Queens are much more of an issue. They completely bypass Zerg's core larva mechanic allowing them to produce eco and fighting units at the same time, while also being their only recourse against early air units. And they give map control through Creep. You say Protoss needs an overpowered band-aid to survive early Terran pushes, but I know no Protoss unit that fulfills that role more than the Queen does for Zerg.
There are tonnes of overpowered band-aids in the game. EMP? Snipe? Abduct? It's hardly a unique Protoss trait.
On July 23 2023 08:25 WombaT wrote:Protoss core units aren’t strong, they’re not high DPS microable like Terran. They’re not numerous and really fast like Zerg for map control.
They’re good in an all-in before tech hits in, or they’re good in a deathball.
High Templar are a strong Gateway unit that doesn't benefit from deathballs. Revert Khaydarin Amulet removal. Literally the game that got people so upset about it was one of the most map-wide action packed and map control focused games of its time. Might cause balance issues, but it fixes the "design" problems without requiring a complete redesign at all.
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So you want to redesign the other two races instead of redesign Protoss.That's your solution? lol. It won't work either because you will just end up running into the same problems over again. The only thing you'll "fix" by doing that is giving Protoss a few years of being overpowered before they eventually have be tuned back down again.
You just want to repeat the same cycle over again. 13 years isn't long enough. No if we just keep going in the same circle over and over again eventually we'll get it right.
And I never changed my position. I just clarified it for you since you didn't understand it the first time.
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On July 23 2023 09:38 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 08:03 Vindicare605 wrote:
I'm not saying that gimmick builds aren't allowed or that the other races don't have them. I'm saying Protoss is stuck in this cycle of ALWAYS relying on gimmick all ins in order to win tournaments. If it's not one build it's another.
Oh unless it's their hated late game deathball comps that someone else mentioned. Ok valid. That was me. I'm the one who mentioned it. And now, even though your entire position was "Protoss shouldn't exist because they rely on gimmicky builds" and you've admitted the reason for your conclusion was wrong, instead of changing your conclusion you've just decided that when they rely on stable late game compositions is also a reason they shouldn't exist. Somehow. Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 08:03 Vindicare605 wrote:In the modern LotV meta where the game is spread out and not concentrated into one tiny area that late game army comp reliance doesn't really work, it doesn't work with ANY of the races and yet Protoss has nothing else beyond that unless it kills you with a timing attack. Why is that? Because of the core problems the race has with the way it's designed. 13 years of experiencing this shit. How many more do you want before you'll see it's a fundamental problem with how Protoss is designed? They might fix the balance by just making their timings or deathballs stronger, but then we're right back to where we were before.
It's just a badly designed race, has been from the start and no one that's playing it seems to want to play any other way to prove me wrong.
You're seriously going to look at the games that herO played the other night and say he lost because the game isn't balanced? Really? He lost because he was proxying Dark Shrines, and constantly getting his attempts to sneak something past his opponent scouted and stomped on and he had nothing else left besides it. It's hilarious that people defend stuff like this as "the only way to play." In fact the only reason why Hero's games were so cheese heavy is because of how hard Protoss think it is to win in macro games vs Terran. Cheese builds by their very nature carry enormous risk that no top tier pro wants to take on EVERY game unless they feel like they have to. If Hero felt confident in his PvT standard play he wouldnt be proxying Dark Shrines EVERY game. Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 08:25 WombaT wrote:
It’s a design issue
Balance can conceivably be fixed with tweaking a few numbers here or there. Design things are more fundamental.
Let’s consider Legacy, Protoss got a new toy in the Adept and was shredding face with it for a prolonged period. Until it got nerfed and wasn’t. This is literally what happened to Reapers when they were new. Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 08:25 WombaT wrote:Let’s consider that in terms of early/midgame comps not actually a huge amount changed with Terran.
But with eco ramp up Protoss needed shield batteries (after the old Mommashipcore/overcharge just to hold basic Terran pushes.
They still can’t reliably hold those pushes while being greedy enough to enter lategame on a good footing. A similar dynamic exists in PvZ
Either they’re given a tool that’s OP, which is also bad or we just consistently see the same pattern. Reliance on gimmicky, risky play to compensate for a lack of stable macro styles. What makes a gimmicky unit you rely on "well designed" as opposed to "badly designed"? Terran were also given an OP tool to shore up their weaknesses in the Medivac Dropship. It adds sustainability to their glass cannon units, makes Stim a viable upgrade, allows them to save their armies when they're caught out of position, take bad engagements or are otherwise outmaneuvered, to say nothing of its offensive abilities. You call Recall an "overpowered band-aid" but Medivacs do so much more, so much more efficiently. What options does Terran have to win without Medivacs? Gimmicky, risky play? Or the absolute disaster that is mech? Why is it okay that Terran is completely dependent on this unit for defense, map control as well as offense, but it's a problem that Protoss needs Shield Batteries to survive early Terran pushes? And again, Zerg Queens are much more of an issue. They completely bypass Zerg's core larva mechanic allowing them to produce eco and fighting units at the same time, while also being their only recourse against early air units. And they give map control through Creep. You say Protoss needs an overpowered band-aid to survive early Terran pushes, but I know no Protoss unit that fulfills that role more than the Queen does for Zerg. There are tonnes of overpowered band-aids in the game. EMP? Snipe? Abduct? It's hardly a unique Protoss trait. Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 08:25 WombaT wrote:Protoss core units aren’t strong, they’re not high DPS microable like Terran. They’re not numerous and really fast like Zerg for map control.
They’re good in an all-in before tech hits in, or they’re good in a deathball. High Templar are a strong Gateway unit that doesn't benefit from deathballs. Revert Khaydarin Amulet removal. Literally the game that got people so upset about it was one of the most map-wide action packed and map control focused games of its time. Might cause balance issues, but it fixes the "design" problems without requiring a complete redesign at all.
Can you share what game it was? Would love to find it.
I do remember when they had KA back then, that warping in HTs in strategic locations was fun and cool, and you could set up tactics and stuff, and allowed for some faster paced action. Map control type games are cool too. Back then it was OP because you could warp in far pylons quickly AND have a HT ready with Storm energy. However, now far pylons warp in slower, so you wouldn't be able to warp in a HT on reaction as easily, you'd still have to try to anticipate something coming and warp it in in time to Storm.
Would be totally fine with slowing HTs down again too if it makes up for being able to warp in HTs around the map with storm energy, and relying on that to position them than having them move faster.
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On July 23 2023 09:45 Vindicare605 wrote:
So you want to redesign the other two races instead of redesign Protoss.That's your solution? lol.
I literally argued that Protoss doesn't need a massive redesign and you somehow decided that I think that two races need massive redesigns? That's your understanding? lol.
On July 23 2023 09:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Can you share what game it was? Would love to find it.
Wish I could, but I think it was lost to Gom's old site. If I remember correctly, it was SanZenith vs. ScFou on Terminus, but I can't find the VoD anywhere to verify, so I might have the wrong game.
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On July 23 2023 10:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 09:45 Vindicare605 wrote:
So you want to redesign the other two races instead of redesign Protoss.That's your solution? lol. I literally argued that Protoss doesn't need a massive redesign and you somehow decided that I think that two races need massive redesigns? That's your understanding? lol. Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 09:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Can you share what game it was? Would love to find it.
Wish I could, but I think it was lost to Gom's old site. If I remember correctly, it was SanZenith vs. ScFou on Terminus, but I can't find the VoD anywhere to verify, so I might have the wrong game.
Are you even reading what you write?
You launch into a whole list of things you want to change about the other races, without even thinking for even a moment how they'll impact the TvZ match up btw, just so you can justify your stance that it's not that there's anything wrong with Protoss it's that EVERYBODY ELSE needs to be massively nerfed in order to get the game back into equilibrium.
Do you not understand how that's just an indirect acknowledgement that the problem is with Protoss? There are 3 races in the game, there are 9 match ups in the game. Only the match ups where Protoss is involved is there a balance problem. Queens are stupid I agree, but they aren't the only reason Protoss is suffering vs Zerg and Terran is able to play against Zerg just fine even with Zerg having that stupid catch all mechanic.
You can't gut the queen without making TvZ unplayable for Zerg. You can't make ANY of the changes you're suggesting in a vacuum just because you think they MIGHT make Protoss able to win tournaments at a high level because you're not even stopping to consider the ramifications they have on the rest of the games that Protoss isn't in.
You even suggest bringing Khaydarian Amulet back and saying at the end that "it'll cause balance issues" because you're not thinking about the entire picture here, you're just throwing out ideas that MIGHT work because it HAS to be something else other than Protoss is just fundamentally broken.
We have done this dance for 13 years. I'm telling you that we knew 13 years ago that the problem was the fundamental design of Protoss. We have 13 years of trying ALL sorts of other changes to try and make that design work and we keep running into the same pattern over and over again that Protoss is either busted strong due to an overtuned timing build or overpowered deathball or they are underpowered because their core army can't compete with Zerg and Terran's.
We have over a DECADE of evidence to justify that we know what the problem is, but you just want to keep insisting that it's the other races that are the problem and not Protoss. It's like trying to convince someone that the Earth is round.
But sure, let's go once more around the merry go round. Let's nerf Zerg and Terran, let's buff Protoss, let's just go back round and round because it's not the goal to actually FIX the game so that everyone ends up balanced no, it's just to make sure that every race is overpowered enough times so that the win totals average out the same in the long run.
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On July 23 2023 10:25 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 10:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On July 23 2023 09:45 Vindicare605 wrote:
So you want to redesign the other two races instead of redesign Protoss.That's your solution? lol. I literally argued that Protoss doesn't need a massive redesign and you somehow decided that I think that two races need massive redesigns? That's your understanding? lol. On July 23 2023 09:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Can you share what game it was? Would love to find it.
Wish I could, but I think it was lost to Gom's old site. If I remember correctly, it was SanZenith vs. ScFou on Terminus, but I can't find the VoD anywhere to verify, so I might have the wrong game. Are you even reading what you write?
One of us did, and it certainly wasn't you. Almost everything you claim "I" said, I never said. Complete strawmen.
On July 23 2023 10:25 Vindicare605 wrote:You launch into a whole list of things you want to change about the other races,
I haven't suggested a single change to any other race. The only change I suggested was reverting Khaydarin Amulet, which is a Protoss ability, fyi. And people who understand the game better than I do would hopefully have even better ideas than I. The point being that there are plenty of balance tweaks that can be done without needing a complete redesign.
On July 23 2023 10:25 Vindicare605 wrote:
You even suggest bringing Khaydarian Amulet back and saying at the end that "it'll cause balance issues" because you're not thinking about the entire picture here, you're just throwing out ideas that MIGHT work because it HAS to be something else other than Protoss is just fundamentally broken.
No, I'm saying it'll cause balance issues because it'll cause balance issues. Because I am considering the impact this change could have on the bigger picture. I'm throwing out this idea because it was already in the game. I saw what the game looked like when it was there, and it was great, and it addressed the issues you claim to have with Protoss' design, and I want more of it. It's really not that hard to understand.
But now that you bring it up, I also support throwing out ideas that might work. What's the worst that will happen? Will tournament racial balance be dominated by one race? Already the case, and you're super excited about it, so that's not a problem. Will it make games unfun to watch? You're already so upset you're preaching the complete elimination of one of the three races in the game. As far as you're concerned, there's nothing to lose here, so why are you suddenly clutching pearls that the delicate balance might be changed?
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On July 23 2023 11:11 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 10:25 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 23 2023 10:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On July 23 2023 09:45 Vindicare605 wrote:
So you want to redesign the other two races instead of redesign Protoss.That's your solution? lol. I literally argued that Protoss doesn't need a massive redesign and you somehow decided that I think that two races need massive redesigns? That's your understanding? lol. On July 23 2023 09:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Can you share what game it was? Would love to find it.
Wish I could, but I think it was lost to Gom's old site. If I remember correctly, it was SanZenith vs. ScFou on Terminus, but I can't find the VoD anywhere to verify, so I might have the wrong game. Are you even reading what you write? One of us did, and it certainly wasn't you. Almost everything you claim "I" said, I never said. Complete strawmen. Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 10:25 Vindicare605 wrote:You launch into a whole list of things you want to change about the other races, I haven't suggested a single change to any other race. The only change I suggested was reverting Khaydarin Amulet, which is a Protoss ability, fyi. And people who understand the game better than I do would hopefully have even better ideas than I. The point being that there are plenty of balance tweaks that can be done without needing a complete redesign. Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 10:25 Vindicare605 wrote:
You even suggest bringing Khaydarian Amulet back and saying at the end that "it'll cause balance issues" because you're not thinking about the entire picture here, you're just throwing out ideas that MIGHT work because it HAS to be something else other than Protoss is just fundamentally broken. No, I'm saying it'll cause balance issues because it'll cause balance issues. Because I am considering the impact this change could have on the bigger picture. I'm throwing out this idea because it was already in the game. I saw what the game looked like when it was there, and it was great, and it addressed the issues you claim to have with Protoss' design, and I want more of it. It's really not that hard to understand. But now that you bring it up, I also support throwing out ideas that might work. What's the worst that will happen? Will tournament racial balance be dominated by one race? Already the case, and you're super excited about it, so that's not a problem. Will it make games unfun to watch? You're already so upset you're preaching the complete elimination of one of the three races in the game. As far as you're concerned, there's nothing to lose here, so why are you suddenly clutching pearls that the delicate balance might be changed?
You're not reading a thing I'm writing are you?
I'm CLEARLY not ok with how things are right now. I'm so disgusted with the state of the game that I'm genuinely asking if we're sure we even WANT more Protoss in the GSL because if we are just going to keep getting more of the same then I'm at the point where I don't.
I want the game to actually be FIXED though, not just patched FOREVER in a continuous circle like every other Blizzard game has been balanced since Warcraft 3.
I don't want to throw MORE bandaids on the sickness. What you're suggesting is just that.
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