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Code S RO8 - Group B Results - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
25 CommentsPost a Reply
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Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16080 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-07-23 00:52:04
July 23 2023 00:45 GMT
#21
So you want to redesign the other two races instead of redesign Protoss.That's your solution? lol. It won't work either because you will just end up running into the same problems over again. The only thing you'll "fix" by doing that is giving Protoss a few years of being overpowered before they eventually have be tuned back down again.

You just want to repeat the same cycle over again. 13 years isn't long enough. No if we just keep going in the same circle over and over again eventually we'll get it right.

And I never changed my position. I just clarified it for you since you didn't understand it the first time.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10348 Posts
July 23 2023 00:53 GMT
#22
On July 23 2023 09:38 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2023 08:03 Vindicare605 wrote:
I'm not saying that gimmick builds aren't allowed or that the other races don't have them. I'm saying Protoss is stuck in this cycle of ALWAYS relying on gimmick all ins in order to win tournaments. If it's not one build it's another.

Oh unless it's their hated late game deathball comps that someone else mentioned. Ok valid.


That was me. I'm the one who mentioned it. And now, even though your entire position was "Protoss shouldn't exist because they rely on gimmicky builds" and you've admitted the reason for your conclusion was wrong, instead of changing your conclusion you've just decided that when they rely on stable late game compositions is also a reason they shouldn't exist. Somehow.

Show nested quote +
On July 23 2023 08:03 Vindicare605 wrote:In the modern LotV meta where the game is spread out and not concentrated into one tiny area that late game army comp reliance doesn't really work, it doesn't work with ANY of the races and yet Protoss has nothing else beyond that unless it kills you with a timing attack. Why is that? Because of the core problems the race has with the way it's designed. 13 years of experiencing this shit. How many more do you want before you'll see it's a fundamental problem with how Protoss is designed? They might fix the balance by just making their timings or deathballs stronger, but then we're right back to where we were before.

It's just a badly designed race, has been from the start and no one that's playing it seems to want to play any other way to prove me wrong.

You're seriously going to look at the games that herO played the other night and say he lost because the game isn't balanced? Really? He lost because he was proxying Dark Shrines, and constantly getting his attempts to sneak something past his opponent scouted and stomped on and he had nothing else left besides it. It's hilarious that people defend stuff like this as "the only way to play."


In fact the only reason why Hero's games were so cheese heavy is because of how hard Protoss think it is to win in macro games vs Terran. Cheese builds by their very nature carry enormous risk that no top tier pro wants to take on EVERY game unless they feel like they have to.

If Hero felt confident in his PvT standard play he wouldnt be proxying Dark Shrines EVERY game.

Show nested quote +
On July 23 2023 08:25 WombaT wrote:
It’s a design issue

Balance can conceivably be fixed with tweaking a few numbers here or there. Design things are more fundamental.

Let’s consider Legacy, Protoss got a new toy in the Adept and was shredding face with it for a prolonged period. Until it got nerfed and wasn’t.


This is literally what happened to Reapers when they were new.

Show nested quote +
On July 23 2023 08:25 WombaT wrote:Let’s consider that in terms of early/midgame comps not actually a huge amount changed with Terran.

But with eco ramp up Protoss needed shield batteries (after the old Mommashipcore/overcharge just to hold basic Terran pushes.

They still can’t reliably hold those pushes while being greedy enough to enter lategame on a good footing. A similar dynamic exists in PvZ

Either they’re given a tool that’s OP, which is also bad or we just consistently see the same pattern. Reliance on gimmicky, risky play to compensate for a lack of stable macro styles.


What makes a gimmicky unit you rely on "well designed" as opposed to "badly designed"? Terran were also given an OP tool to shore up their weaknesses in the Medivac Dropship. It adds sustainability to their glass cannon units, makes Stim a viable upgrade, allows them to save their armies when they're caught out of position, take bad engagements or are otherwise outmaneuvered, to say nothing of its offensive abilities. You call Recall an "overpowered band-aid" but Medivacs do so much more, so much more efficiently. What options does Terran have to win without Medivacs? Gimmicky, risky play? Or the absolute disaster that is mech? Why is it okay that Terran is completely dependent on this unit for defense, map control as well as offense, but it's a problem that Protoss needs Shield Batteries to survive early Terran pushes?

And again, Zerg Queens are much more of an issue. They completely bypass Zerg's core larva mechanic allowing them to produce eco and fighting units at the same time, while also being their only recourse against early air units. And they give map control through Creep. You say Protoss needs an overpowered band-aid to survive early Terran pushes, but I know no Protoss unit that fulfills that role more than the Queen does for Zerg.

There are tonnes of overpowered band-aids in the game. EMP? Snipe? Abduct? It's hardly a unique Protoss trait.

Show nested quote +
On July 23 2023 08:25 WombaT wrote:Protoss core units aren’t strong, they’re not high DPS microable like Terran. They’re not numerous and really fast like Zerg for map control.

They’re good in an all-in before tech hits in, or they’re good in a deathball.


High Templar are a strong Gateway unit that doesn't benefit from deathballs. Revert Khaydarin Amulet removal. Literally the game that got people so upset about it was one of the most map-wide action packed and map control focused games of its time. Might cause balance issues, but it fixes the "design" problems without requiring a complete redesign at all.


Can you share what game it was? Would love to find it.

I do remember when they had KA back then, that warping in HTs in strategic locations was fun and cool, and you could set up tactics and stuff, and allowed for some faster paced action. Map control type games are cool too. Back then it was OP because you could warp in far pylons quickly AND have a HT ready with Storm energy. However, now far pylons warp in slower, so you wouldn't be able to warp in a HT on reaction as easily, you'd still have to try to anticipate something coming and warp it in in time to Storm.

Would be totally fine with slowing HTs down again too if it makes up for being able to warp in HTs around the map with storm energy, and relying on that to position them than having them move faster.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Fanatic-Templar
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada5819 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-07-23 01:15:12
July 23 2023 01:14 GMT
#23
On July 23 2023 09:45 Vindicare605 wrote:
So you want to redesign the other two races instead of redesign Protoss.That's your solution? lol.


I literally argued that Protoss doesn't need a massive redesign and you somehow decided that I think that two races need massive redesigns? That's your understanding? lol.

On July 23 2023 09:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Can you share what game it was? Would love to find it.


Wish I could, but I think it was lost to Gom's old site. If I remember correctly, it was SanZenith vs. ScFou on Terminus, but I can't find the VoD anywhere to verify, so I might have the wrong game.
I bear this sig to commemorate the loss of the team icon that commemorated Oversky's 2008-2009 Proleague Round 1 performance.
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16080 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-07-23 01:31:46
July 23 2023 01:25 GMT
#24
On July 23 2023 10:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2023 09:45 Vindicare605 wrote:
So you want to redesign the other two races instead of redesign Protoss.That's your solution? lol.


I literally argued that Protoss doesn't need a massive redesign and you somehow decided that I think that two races need massive redesigns? That's your understanding? lol.

Show nested quote +
On July 23 2023 09:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Can you share what game it was? Would love to find it.


Wish I could, but I think it was lost to Gom's old site. If I remember correctly, it was SanZenith vs. ScFou on Terminus, but I can't find the VoD anywhere to verify, so I might have the wrong game.


Are you even reading what you write?

You launch into a whole list of things you want to change about the other races, without even thinking for even a moment how they'll impact the TvZ match up btw, just so you can justify your stance that it's not that there's anything wrong with Protoss it's that EVERYBODY ELSE needs to be massively nerfed in order to get the game back into equilibrium.

Do you not understand how that's just an indirect acknowledgement that the problem is with Protoss? There are 3 races in the game, there are 9 match ups in the game. Only the match ups where Protoss is involved is there a balance problem. Queens are stupid I agree, but they aren't the only reason Protoss is suffering vs Zerg and Terran is able to play against Zerg just fine even with Zerg having that stupid catch all mechanic.

You can't gut the queen without making TvZ unplayable for Zerg. You can't make ANY of the changes you're suggesting in a vacuum just because you think they MIGHT make Protoss able to win tournaments at a high level because you're not even stopping to consider the ramifications they have on the rest of the games that Protoss isn't in.

You even suggest bringing Khaydarian Amulet back and saying at the end that "it'll cause balance issues" because you're not thinking about the entire picture here, you're just throwing out ideas that MIGHT work because it HAS to be something else other than Protoss is just fundamentally broken.

We have done this dance for 13 years. I'm telling you that we knew 13 years ago that the problem was the fundamental design of Protoss. We have 13 years of trying ALL sorts of other changes to try and make that design work and we keep running into the same pattern over and over again that Protoss is either busted strong due to an overtuned timing build or overpowered deathball or they are underpowered because their core army can't compete with Zerg and Terran's.

We have over a DECADE of evidence to justify that we know what the problem is, but you just want to keep insisting that it's the other races that are the problem and not Protoss. It's like trying to convince someone that the Earth is round.

But sure, let's go once more around the merry go round. Let's nerf Zerg and Terran, let's buff Protoss, let's just go back round and round because it's not the goal to actually FIX the game so that everyone ends up balanced no, it's just to make sure that every race is overpowered enough times so that the win totals average out the same in the long run.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Fanatic-Templar
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada5819 Posts
July 23 2023 02:11 GMT
#25
On July 23 2023 10:25 Vindicare605 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2023 10:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
On July 23 2023 09:45 Vindicare605 wrote:
So you want to redesign the other two races instead of redesign Protoss.That's your solution? lol.


I literally argued that Protoss doesn't need a massive redesign and you somehow decided that I think that two races need massive redesigns? That's your understanding? lol.

On July 23 2023 09:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Can you share what game it was? Would love to find it.


Wish I could, but I think it was lost to Gom's old site. If I remember correctly, it was SanZenith vs. ScFou on Terminus, but I can't find the VoD anywhere to verify, so I might have the wrong game.


Are you even reading what you write?


One of us did, and it certainly wasn't you. Almost everything you claim "I" said, I never said. Complete strawmen.

On July 23 2023 10:25 Vindicare605 wrote:You launch into a whole list of things you want to change about the other races,


I haven't suggested a single change to any other race. The only change I suggested was reverting Khaydarin Amulet, which is a Protoss ability, fyi. And people who understand the game better than I do would hopefully have even better ideas than I. The point being that there are plenty of balance tweaks that can be done without needing a complete redesign.

On July 23 2023 10:25 Vindicare605 wrote:
You even suggest bringing Khaydarian Amulet back and saying at the end that "it'll cause balance issues" because you're not thinking about the entire picture here, you're just throwing out ideas that MIGHT work because it HAS to be something else other than Protoss is just fundamentally broken.


No, I'm saying it'll cause balance issues because it'll cause balance issues. Because I am considering the impact this change could have on the bigger picture. I'm throwing out this idea because it was already in the game. I saw what the game looked like when it was there, and it was great, and it addressed the issues you claim to have with Protoss' design, and I want more of it. It's really not that hard to understand.

But now that you bring it up, I also support throwing out ideas that might work. What's the worst that will happen? Will tournament racial balance be dominated by one race? Already the case, and you're super excited about it, so that's not a problem. Will it make games unfun to watch? You're already so upset you're preaching the complete elimination of one of the three races in the game. As far as you're concerned, there's nothing to lose here, so why are you suddenly clutching pearls that the delicate balance might be changed?
I bear this sig to commemorate the loss of the team icon that commemorated Oversky's 2008-2009 Proleague Round 1 performance.
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16080 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-07-23 02:29:59
July 23 2023 02:22 GMT
#26
On July 23 2023 11:11 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2023 10:25 Vindicare605 wrote:
On July 23 2023 10:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
On July 23 2023 09:45 Vindicare605 wrote:
So you want to redesign the other two races instead of redesign Protoss.That's your solution? lol.


I literally argued that Protoss doesn't need a massive redesign and you somehow decided that I think that two races need massive redesigns? That's your understanding? lol.

On July 23 2023 09:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Can you share what game it was? Would love to find it.


Wish I could, but I think it was lost to Gom's old site. If I remember correctly, it was SanZenith vs. ScFou on Terminus, but I can't find the VoD anywhere to verify, so I might have the wrong game.


Are you even reading what you write?


One of us did, and it certainly wasn't you. Almost everything you claim "I" said, I never said. Complete strawmen.

Show nested quote +
On July 23 2023 10:25 Vindicare605 wrote:You launch into a whole list of things you want to change about the other races,


I haven't suggested a single change to any other race. The only change I suggested was reverting Khaydarin Amulet, which is a Protoss ability, fyi. And people who understand the game better than I do would hopefully have even better ideas than I. The point being that there are plenty of balance tweaks that can be done without needing a complete redesign.

Show nested quote +
On July 23 2023 10:25 Vindicare605 wrote:
You even suggest bringing Khaydarian Amulet back and saying at the end that "it'll cause balance issues" because you're not thinking about the entire picture here, you're just throwing out ideas that MIGHT work because it HAS to be something else other than Protoss is just fundamentally broken.


No, I'm saying it'll cause balance issues because it'll cause balance issues. Because I am considering the impact this change could have on the bigger picture. I'm throwing out this idea because it was already in the game. I saw what the game looked like when it was there, and it was great, and it addressed the issues you claim to have with Protoss' design, and I want more of it. It's really not that hard to understand.

But now that you bring it up, I also support throwing out ideas that might work. What's the worst that will happen? Will tournament racial balance be dominated by one race? Already the case, and you're super excited about it, so that's not a problem. Will it make games unfun to watch? You're already so upset you're preaching the complete elimination of one of the three races in the game. As far as you're concerned, there's nothing to lose here, so why are you suddenly clutching pearls that the delicate balance might be changed?


You're not reading a thing I'm writing are you?

I'm CLEARLY not ok with how things are right now. I'm so disgusted with the state of the game that I'm genuinely asking if we're sure we even WANT more Protoss in the GSL because if we are just going to keep getting more of the same then I'm at the point where I don't.

I want the game to actually be FIXED though, not just patched FOREVER in a continuous circle like every other Blizzard game has been balanced since Warcraft 3.

I don't want to throw MORE bandaids on the sickness. What you're suggesting is just that.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
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