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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
You just want to repeat the same cycle over again. 13 years isn't long enough. No if we just keep going in the same circle over and over again eventually we'll get it right. And I never changed my position. I just clarified it for you since you didn't understand it the first time. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10346 Posts
On July 23 2023 09:38 Fanatic-Templar wrote: That was me. I'm the one who mentioned it. And now, even though your entire position was "Protoss shouldn't exist because they rely on gimmicky builds" and you've admitted the reason for your conclusion was wrong, instead of changing your conclusion you've just decided that when they rely on stable late game compositions is also a reason they shouldn't exist. Somehow. In fact the only reason why Hero's games were so cheese heavy is because of how hard Protoss think it is to win in macro games vs Terran. Cheese builds by their very nature carry enormous risk that no top tier pro wants to take on EVERY game unless they feel like they have to. If Hero felt confident in his PvT standard play he wouldnt be proxying Dark Shrines EVERY game. This is literally what happened to Reapers when they were new. What makes a gimmicky unit you rely on "well designed" as opposed to "badly designed"? Terran were also given an OP tool to shore up their weaknesses in the Medivac Dropship. It adds sustainability to their glass cannon units, makes Stim a viable upgrade, allows them to save their armies when they're caught out of position, take bad engagements or are otherwise outmaneuvered, to say nothing of its offensive abilities. You call Recall an "overpowered band-aid" but Medivacs do so much more, so much more efficiently. What options does Terran have to win without Medivacs? Gimmicky, risky play? Or the absolute disaster that is mech? Why is it okay that Terran is completely dependent on this unit for defense, map control as well as offense, but it's a problem that Protoss needs Shield Batteries to survive early Terran pushes? And again, Zerg Queens are much more of an issue. They completely bypass Zerg's core larva mechanic allowing them to produce eco and fighting units at the same time, while also being their only recourse against early air units. And they give map control through Creep. You say Protoss needs an overpowered band-aid to survive early Terran pushes, but I know no Protoss unit that fulfills that role more than the Queen does for Zerg. There are tonnes of overpowered band-aids in the game. EMP? Snipe? Abduct? It's hardly a unique Protoss trait. High Templar are a strong Gateway unit that doesn't benefit from deathballs. Revert Khaydarin Amulet removal. Literally the game that got people so upset about it was one of the most map-wide action packed and map control focused games of its time. Might cause balance issues, but it fixes the "design" problems without requiring a complete redesign at all. Can you share what game it was? Would love to find it. I do remember when they had KA back then, that warping in HTs in strategic locations was fun and cool, and you could set up tactics and stuff, and allowed for some faster paced action. Map control type games are cool too. Back then it was OP because you could warp in far pylons quickly AND have a HT ready with Storm energy. However, now far pylons warp in slower, so you wouldn't be able to warp in a HT on reaction as easily, you'd still have to try to anticipate something coming and warp it in in time to Storm. Would be totally fine with slowing HTs down again too if it makes up for being able to warp in HTs around the map with storm energy, and relying on that to position them than having them move faster. | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On July 23 2023 09:45 Vindicare605 wrote: So you want to redesign the other two races instead of redesign Protoss.That's your solution? lol. I literally argued that Protoss doesn't need a massive redesign and you somehow decided that I think that two races need massive redesigns? That's your understanding? lol. On July 23 2023 09:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Can you share what game it was? Would love to find it. Wish I could, but I think it was lost to Gom's old site. If I remember correctly, it was SanZenith vs. ScFou on Terminus, but I can't find the VoD anywhere to verify, so I might have the wrong game. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On July 23 2023 10:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I literally argued that Protoss doesn't need a massive redesign and you somehow decided that I think that two races need massive redesigns? That's your understanding? lol. Wish I could, but I think it was lost to Gom's old site. If I remember correctly, it was SanZenith vs. ScFou on Terminus, but I can't find the VoD anywhere to verify, so I might have the wrong game. Are you even reading what you write? You launch into a whole list of things you want to change about the other races, without even thinking for even a moment how they'll impact the TvZ match up btw, just so you can justify your stance that it's not that there's anything wrong with Protoss it's that EVERYBODY ELSE needs to be massively nerfed in order to get the game back into equilibrium. Do you not understand how that's just an indirect acknowledgement that the problem is with Protoss? There are 3 races in the game, there are 9 match ups in the game. Only the match ups where Protoss is involved is there a balance problem. Queens are stupid I agree, but they aren't the only reason Protoss is suffering vs Zerg and Terran is able to play against Zerg just fine even with Zerg having that stupid catch all mechanic. You can't gut the queen without making TvZ unplayable for Zerg. You can't make ANY of the changes you're suggesting in a vacuum just because you think they MIGHT make Protoss able to win tournaments at a high level because you're not even stopping to consider the ramifications they have on the rest of the games that Protoss isn't in. You even suggest bringing Khaydarian Amulet back and saying at the end that "it'll cause balance issues" because you're not thinking about the entire picture here, you're just throwing out ideas that MIGHT work because it HAS to be something else other than Protoss is just fundamentally broken. We have done this dance for 13 years. I'm telling you that we knew 13 years ago that the problem was the fundamental design of Protoss. We have 13 years of trying ALL sorts of other changes to try and make that design work and we keep running into the same pattern over and over again that Protoss is either busted strong due to an overtuned timing build or overpowered deathball or they are underpowered because their core army can't compete with Zerg and Terran's. We have over a DECADE of evidence to justify that we know what the problem is, but you just want to keep insisting that it's the other races that are the problem and not Protoss. It's like trying to convince someone that the Earth is round. But sure, let's go once more around the merry go round. Let's nerf Zerg and Terran, let's buff Protoss, let's just go back round and round because it's not the goal to actually FIX the game so that everyone ends up balanced no, it's just to make sure that every race is overpowered enough times so that the win totals average out the same in the long run. | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
One of us did, and it certainly wasn't you. Almost everything you claim "I" said, I never said. Complete strawmen. On July 23 2023 10:25 Vindicare605 wrote:You launch into a whole list of things you want to change about the other races, I haven't suggested a single change to any other race. The only change I suggested was reverting Khaydarin Amulet, which is a Protoss ability, fyi. And people who understand the game better than I do would hopefully have even better ideas than I. The point being that there are plenty of balance tweaks that can be done without needing a complete redesign. On July 23 2023 10:25 Vindicare605 wrote: You even suggest bringing Khaydarian Amulet back and saying at the end that "it'll cause balance issues" because you're not thinking about the entire picture here, you're just throwing out ideas that MIGHT work because it HAS to be something else other than Protoss is just fundamentally broken. No, I'm saying it'll cause balance issues because it'll cause balance issues. Because I am considering the impact this change could have on the bigger picture. I'm throwing out this idea because it was already in the game. I saw what the game looked like when it was there, and it was great, and it addressed the issues you claim to have with Protoss' design, and I want more of it. It's really not that hard to understand. But now that you bring it up, I also support throwing out ideas that might work. What's the worst that will happen? Will tournament racial balance be dominated by one race? Already the case, and you're super excited about it, so that's not a problem. Will it make games unfun to watch? You're already so upset you're preaching the complete elimination of one of the three races in the game. As far as you're concerned, there's nothing to lose here, so why are you suddenly clutching pearls that the delicate balance might be changed? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On July 23 2023 11:11 Fanatic-Templar wrote: One of us did, and it certainly wasn't you. Almost everything you claim "I" said, I never said. Complete strawmen. I haven't suggested a single change to any other race. The only change I suggested was reverting Khaydarin Amulet, which is a Protoss ability, fyi. And people who understand the game better than I do would hopefully have even better ideas than I. The point being that there are plenty of balance tweaks that can be done without needing a complete redesign. No, I'm saying it'll cause balance issues because it'll cause balance issues. Because I am considering the impact this change could have on the bigger picture. I'm throwing out this idea because it was already in the game. I saw what the game looked like when it was there, and it was great, and it addressed the issues you claim to have with Protoss' design, and I want more of it. It's really not that hard to understand. But now that you bring it up, I also support throwing out ideas that might work. What's the worst that will happen? Will tournament racial balance be dominated by one race? Already the case, and you're super excited about it, so that's not a problem. Will it make games unfun to watch? You're already so upset you're preaching the complete elimination of one of the three races in the game. As far as you're concerned, there's nothing to lose here, so why are you suddenly clutching pearls that the delicate balance might be changed? You're not reading a thing I'm writing are you? I'm CLEARLY not ok with how things are right now. I'm so disgusted with the state of the game that I'm genuinely asking if we're sure we even WANT more Protoss in the GSL because if we are just going to keep getting more of the same then I'm at the point where I don't. I want the game to actually be FIXED though, not just patched FOREVER in a continuous circle like every other Blizzard game has been balanced since Warcraft 3. I don't want to throw MORE bandaids on the sickness. What you're suggesting is just that. | ||
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