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TLMC #17: Finalists

Forum Index > SC2 General
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TLMC #17: Finalists

Text byTL.net ESPORTS
October 20th, 2022 23:08 GMT
TLMC17
It's time to announce the sixteen finalists of Team Liquid Map Contest #17!

Voting will be open during October 25-30. The WardiTV TLMC Tournament will be held at the same time with progamers testing out the finalist maps.

Some notes as we unveil the maps:
  • All maps are accompanied by comments from the map-maker.
  • The maps are listed in random order and do not reflect their score in judge voting.
  • Three maps are selected per category based on judging. Then, four additional "judges picks" selections are given to the remaining maps with the highest scores.

Standard

+1 Judges' pick

  • Guidelines: Medium sized map. Players tend to have more flexibility on these maps to open with a wider variety of strategies and/or builds.
  • Average rush distance (main ramp to main ramp): 33-38 seconds. (Note: Not a hard restriction. Could be more or less)
  • Playable map dimensions guidelines (not full map dimensions): Map playable area should be approximately between 15,000 and 17,000. (Note: Not a hard restriction. Could be more or less)

Dragon Scales

By: MiloOnFire
Forward high ground outposts play a major part in defense and coordinating attacks. The linear third is open and easy to access, whereas a triangle third is choked, with an option to partially block a ramp with collapsible rocks.

Features:
  • Forward expansion on the main attack path.
  • Collapsible rocks next to a triangle third base.
  • Bridges restricting movements in some parts of the map.


Silver Wall

By: Superouman
The Silver Wall has 5 openings where units can pass through. Destroying the rocks in the middle of the map significantly changes the attack routes.


Starchild

By: Marras
Starchild is a standard map with 14 bases, two of which have double rich gasses. There’s also no Overlord pillars at the naturals. Like a typical standard map there are also two third base options, line of sight blockers and some rocks.


Ancient Cistern

By: Skypirinha1
A balanced layout which provides room for many different strategies.


Rush

+2 Judges' picks

  • Guidelines: Map favors early aggression and offensive play.
  • Average rush distance (main ramp to main ramp): 33 seconds or less. (Note: Not a hard restriction. Could be more or less)
  • Playable map dimensions guidelines (not full map dimensions): Map playable area should be approximately between 14,000 and 16,000. (Note: Not a hard restriction. Could be more or less)


Cryolysis

By: HyperONE
Key points:
  • Every base taken, except the triangle 4th, requires defending only one additional choke point.
  • The triangle 3rd base has no forward ramp or choke to defend; rather, it has a ramp on the far side of the natural.
  • Two narrow horizontal passages lie near the center. You can only feasibly defend one of them at a time. Position your army wisely.
  • Although there are no Overlord pillars at the natural expansion, an Overlord can float out of reach of ground units in the dead space near the vespene geysers.


Armistice

By: themusic246
A shorter rush distance and rocks that can open up chokes at key bases pushes the importance of map awareness.


Pink Moon

By: monitor
Pink Moon is a two-player rush map. The fastest attack path is lined with two inhibitor zones in medium-small choke points. Going around will let players take better engagements, at the sacrifice of longer movement times. The expansion layout follows a fork pattern, with a high degree of symmetry and subtle tradeoffs in the way players choose to expand.

  • 12 standard blue expansions.
  • Two small inhibitor zones along the central attack path, lined around one side with line-of-sight blockers.
  • Three separate sets of 4x4 rocks are located outside of the natural expansion, at the north center ramp, and at the south center ramp.
  • No Xel’Naga Towers.


Erreholm

By: volumin
Small rush map with 6 bases per player. Main attack route leads through dangerous lowground, side paths are on the high ground, but blocked by long rocks at one point.

There is Xel'Naga Tower at 5 and 11 o'clock that gives vision of some of the highground side path, it's hidden behind los blockers.


Babylon

By: Sha
This is a fairly small map with standardized expansion patterns that features 4 cliff levels.

The reason why I think this map belongs to the rush category even though it has 4 cliff levels (besides short rush distance) is because it features a linear third base relatively open on the low ground, while the triangle third attack path would be straightforward and short if the rocks are taken down. Even if the rocks are not taken down, it's still possible to attack that triangle third from the high ground of the base next to it.

Destroying the destructible rocks will easily shorten the travel time of your attacks and also make them quite straight forward towards the opposing enemy expansions.

Macro

+1 Judges' pick

  • Guidelines: A map that favors defensive play and encourages players to reach end game unit compositions.
  • Average rush distance (main ramp to main ramp): 38-43 seconds. (Note: Not a hard restriction. Could be more or less)
  • Playable map dimensions (not full map dimensions): Map playable area should be approximately between 16,000 and 18,000. (Note: Not a hard restriction. Could be more or less)

Gresvan

By: Legan
Macro map with a rake layout of 16 bases. There are forward bases between the usual third base locations. Because the third base opens towards the side and creates a cliff towards the middle, the general movement focuses on a wider choke with line-of-sight blockers and ramp near the triangular fourth.

Features:
  • Huge rocks at the ramp near triangular third base are supposed to limit where first attacks to triangular third and triangular third will come from.
  • Line-of-sight blockers at wide choke on high ground. The two lines are so that approaching the choke from an unusual direction gives you vision to the choke.
  • Forward base expensing mineral line to low ground should make it require control over the low ground to an extent.


Black Engine

By: depressed1
Black Engine is a 5-level macro map with a non-standard format of entrance to the natural base. Which allows you to have a split decision on what you want to take as a third base. All levels have at least one fully operating base.

Fifth level was introduced as an experimental part of design. But at the same time it looks natural not only for a base but also for army movements.

Corner bases were pushed at low ground.

The map is relatively medium sized and doesn't have a big number of bases. Only 14 standard bases in total.

The area of the main base is a little bit small for Terran players. But it has been done on purpose. In exchange we have a bigger area of natural base. A place to hide and build a third CC (behind vespene geysers; and if you wanna take a linear third), couple more gates, barracks (less distance to move, or once again to hide them from the opponent). Hiding buildings can be relative to any race. So the decision was not one-sided.


Royal Blood

By: MiloOnFire
Despite a short rush distance, this map provides a lot of safety early on by restricting movement of armies and allowing players to expand away from the main attack path. Bases are spread horizontally, and become harder to defend the longer the game goes.

Features:
  • Short rush distance.
  • Two building wall-off at the natural expansion.
  • Restricted movement due to destructible rocks.
  • A forward aggressive option for an expansion.
  • Two gold bases with exposed minerals.


Electron

By: Agaton
A larger map with baby chokes and shortcuts to keep players on their toes. The linear third expansion is nicely tucked in but has a high-ground with sight-blockers next to it which has to be taken into consideration. The triangular third has several entry points but much tighter chokes. Whatever the choice, the area leading out from the natural provides good flanking opportunities if the attacker overcommits. A Xel'Naga Tower at each side of the center gives vision of important attack paths.

Distinctive features:
  • Destructible debris closes of larger paths in the early stages of the game
  • Small alternative routes are hidden behind line-of-sight blockers.
  • Bridges in front of the triangular third are partly blocked by destructible debris to gradually open up the map as the game progresses.


Freestyle

  • Guidelines: Maps in this category explore new ideas for how StarCraft II can be played. This category is intended for unorthodox, outside-the-box maps.
  • Examples of features that might be included in this category:
    • Heavy or atypical usage of backdoor entrances with Mineral Walls/Reduced Mineral Patches.
    • Usage of Vespene Geysers as potential gates.
    • Inhibitor and Accelerator Zones.
    • Non-standard numbers of Mineral nodes or Vespene geysers at bases (Restriction: Values of each individual resource node cannot be adjusted)
    • Other strongly non-standard map designs.
  • Playable map dimensions guidelines (not full map dimensions): Map playable area should be approximately between 14,000 and 18,000. (Note: Not a hard restriction)

Altitude

By: CharactR
A Macro map with a bit of a twist! Rich bases in the center are blocked by destructible Xel'Naga towers leaving 3 options:
  • Destroy the tower to gain access to the rich minerals or to keep it from your opponent.
  • Use the watchtower.
  • Long distance mine the rich base at the risk of toppling towers.

Features:
  • 16 bases total.
  • 14 standard bases.
  • 2 rich bases (8 patches 1 geyser) that are blocked by Xel'Naga towers.
  • Killing the rock towers destroys the Xel'Naga towers, but allows the player to be able to place expansions at the gold bases.
  • If you want to keep the Xel'Naga tower and long distance mine from an expansion placed slightly further away there you are able to. However, this allows your opponent can also block mining partially by toppling the 500hp towers.


Lazarus Wastes

By: HyperONE
Key features:
  • The central terrain is inspired by Dreamcatcher. Tanks cannot siege behind a cliff such that they can attack either 3rd base, except near the entrances of that base.
  • The first 4 bases for each player are standard, but the remaining 3 bases each have 2 extra mineral patches (10 total patches per base).
  • To balance the ability to take these bases (especially considering the rate at which different races expand), they are slightly distant, and blocked by debris which must be cleared prior to taking them. Your army becomes a resource which must be used to clear expansions, in addition to the usual attacking and defending.
  • If players do not wish to interact with the blocked expansions, they can simply play off the first 4 bases.

A brief analysis of non-standard resource bases:
  • Compared to a standard 8-patch base, a 10-patch super-saturated base has no objective downsides.
  • Compared to a 6-patch rich mineral base, a 10-patch super-saturated base provides more total resources and boasts ~14% higher income at full saturation. However, the rich base provides ~40% more income per worker and can be saturated more quickly.


Taitalika

By: Legan
Aggressive map with unusual layout of 16 bases. Rush distance is only 33s and usual thirds have very forward positions and straight attack paths. However, natural has a mineral blocked(30) backdoor ramp that leads to a pocket base. The pocket has another blocked(15) ramp towards the rest of the map.

Features:
  • Mineral patches in the mineral wall on the ramp between natural and pocket are 30 per patch. 30 minerals is so that a single MULE drop doesn’t let Terrans take the pocket too easily.
  • Mineral patches in the mineral wall on the ramp between pocket and rest of the map are 15 per patch. Thus builds that require sending 3 workers are possible. Note that it is easy to increase the amount to 20 if this turns out to be too abusive. This can be done in the iteration phase. However there is still quite distance between pocket and main so for example shield batteries or siege tanks do not reach main from the pocket.
  • There are 6x6 rocks on the ramp at the middle to give narrow choke to set up defenses against early attacks.
  • There are huge rocks on ramps between low ground at the middle and high ground at the corners. They make maneuvering between attack paths harder early.



Voting

TLMC uses a voting system where voters assign points to their top five maps in order of preference. Please follow these instructions when voting:
  • You may only vote for a total of FIVE (5) maps.
  • Among your top five maps picks, assign your points/votes as follows:
    • Highest rated map: 5 points
    • Second highest rated map: 4 points
    • Third highest rated map: 3 points
    • Fourth highest rated map: 2 points
    • Fifth highest rated map: 1 point
  • You may only assign each specific point value once (only one map can be awarded 5 points, etc).
Vote Now!


Public voting via TL.net determines the final rankings in TLMC #17. All sixteen finalists, as selected by the judges, receive $200 per winning entry. The top five entrants, as determined by public vote, will be awarded additional winnings as follows:

First - $800
Second - $500
Third - $250
Fourth - $150
Fifth - $100

Maps that place high in TLMC #17 are not guaranteed to be added to the competitive ladder. ESL and Blizzard will reference TLMC #17 and other map-making competitions, and choose which maps to add at their own discretion.

Prize money has been provided by Shopify and ESL, and we thank them for their support of the map making community.

Voting is open for

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TL+ Member
MrIronGolem27
Profile Joined July 2020
United States214 Posts
October 20 2022 23:21 GMT
#2
Wow, I can't believe I got two finalist maps on my first contest! (I'm HyperONE.)

Congratulations to all the finalist mapmakers!
HyperONE - mapmaker (TLMC19 2nd place, TLMC17 3rd+5th place), tournament organizer (organizer for the StarCraft Evolution League and Circle Derping), Liquipedia editor, Aligulac contributor, owner of Team HyperONE, and SC: Evo Complete developer
MayOnFire
Profile Joined March 2021
England47 Posts
October 21 2022 00:32 GMT
#3
Congrats to all of the map makers and big thanks to judges, admins and Wardii for hosting the tournament!
Ladder Map Pool : Curious Minds, Amphion, Cosmic Sapphire, Royal Blood, Dragon Scales, Hard Lead, Whispers of Gold + four times TLMC finalist, and other sc2 related content // https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/MayOnFire
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
October 21 2022 01:06 GMT
#4
Congrats, folks. Well made.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
themusic246
Profile Joined December 2012
United States211 Posts
October 21 2022 03:20 GMT
#5
Woooooo congrats finalists, looking forward to tourney
1st place Blizzard arcade RTC contest. 2x 1st place 1v1 Team Liquid Map Contest (30 total ladder map contest finalists). Developer of Zealot Hockey, Star Party, Monobattle Map Rotation and other stuff
Kantuva
Profile Joined April 2010
Uruguay206 Posts
October 21 2022 03:51 GMT
#6
Yeeee

Congrats guys 👏👏👏!
@Kantuva | Mapmaker | TLMC Volunteer Admin | Join us on: https://mapcave.net/discord
3dwin
Profile Joined February 2022
11 Posts
October 21 2022 05:20 GMT
#7
Starchild and Armistice looking dapper
Superouman
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
France2195 Posts
October 21 2022 09:04 GMT
#8
On October 21 2022 08:21 MrIronGolem27 wrote:
Wow, I can't believe I got two finalist maps on my first contest! (I'm HyperONE.)

Congratulations to all the finalist mapmakers!

Royal roader incoming?
Search "[SO]" on B.net to find all my maps ||| Cloud Kingdom / Turbo Cruise '84 / Bone Temple / Eternal Empire / Zen / Purity and Industry / Golden Wall / Fortitude / Beckett Industries / Waterfall
dbRic1203
Profile Joined July 2019
Germany2655 Posts
October 21 2022 13:37 GMT
#9
Congrats to all the mapmakers
These finalists are looking real good
MaxPax
Legan
Profile Joined June 2017
Finland402 Posts
October 21 2022 14:38 GMT
#10
Congrats to finalists. Nice set of maps. Really looking forward for the tournament as always.
Creator of Gresvan, Tropical Sacrifice, Taitalika, and Golden Forge
IIEclipseII
Profile Joined February 2016
Germany157 Posts
October 21 2022 17:53 GMT
#11
Most of the maps look quite promising, so I'm not that salty this time that none of mine got through. I'm looking forward to a potential feedback thread.
KillerSmile
Profile Joined November 2018
Germany86 Posts
October 21 2022 19:24 GMT
#12
Many congrats to the finalists.

I'm a little sad that none of my submissions made it past the judges, but ofc they weren't perfect. Most looking forward to Ancient Cistern and Babylon in the tournament, they are the 2 standout maps for me personally.

Mapmaker, author of Data-C, Solaris, Ley Lines, Torches and Reclamation LE
CharactR
Profile Joined January 2020
Canada105 Posts
October 22 2022 03:32 GMT
#13
Congrats to all finalists! Especially HyperOne who has gotten very good at making maps in a really short amount of time by just cranking a bunch out and putting a lot of time into them, big props for that.
Creator of ladder maps: Altitude LE, Undercurrent (2v2), Crimson Research Lab (2v2), Sandstorm (3v3), Lexiphanicism (4v4), Floodplain (4v4)
[SC]Django
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland44 Posts
October 22 2022 13:38 GMT
#14
Maps looks incredible! Big Thanks I hope my predictions wins and I come back to SC2
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16071 Posts
October 22 2022 14:26 GMT
#15
Pink Moon, Black Engine and Dragon Scales stand out to me just looking at them as maps that I like. The other macro maps look incredibly Zerg favored, especially Royal Blood. That map just screams "hey let's force the other races to use a veto here!"
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Legan
Profile Joined June 2017
Finland402 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-23 17:09:17
October 23 2022 16:18 GMT
#16
Redgunnerguy has done some great testing on maps already. VODs are available on his stream.
https://www.twitch.tv/redgunnerguy
Creator of Gresvan, Tropical Sacrifice, Taitalika, and Golden Forge
Gluon
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands391 Posts
October 24 2022 06:17 GMT
#17
Some great looking maps in there, congratulations to all that have made it! And also thanks to those that didn't: without your efforts we wouldn't have a contest!

Looking forward to the tournament
Administrator
meou2321
Profile Joined June 2017
11 Posts
October 24 2022 09:22 GMT
#18
awesome rough terrain, time for Zerg to suffer
ROOTCatZ
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
Peru1226 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-24 10:39:16
October 24 2022 10:34 GMT
#19
While most maps are playable, sadly a lot of the most fun / different maps didn't make it in to the voting stage which to me as 1/9 judges is rather disappointing, lots of same-ish maps to choose from, not a bad set by any means, just wish there was more variety because ultimately maps are essential to variety in gameplay / strategy and most players (+I imagine, other judges primarily) today are happy / comfortable doing the same thing over and over. Hope next iteration of the contest is a bit bolder / different, I think our current map pool is great with lots of different flavors and has produced great games, but this as a set feels like a step back to me.

To be clear, I have no issue with maps individually, they are fine / good - but I think as a group they're lacking a little bit of spice - So alongside my congratulations to the finalists, I attach my condolences to map makers who put in thought and effort to try to make fun, interesting and unique maps to keep the game fresh and didn't make the cut.
Progamerwww.root-gaming.com
Durnuu
Profile Joined September 2013
13320 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-24 10:39:34
October 24 2022 10:39 GMT
#20
On October 24 2022 19:34 ROOTCatZ wrote:
While most maps are playable, sadly a lot of the most fun / different maps didn't make it in to the voting stage which to me as 1/9 judges is rather disappointing, lots of same-ish maps to choose from, not a bad set by any means, just wish there was more variety because ultimately maps are essential to variety in gameplay / strategy and most players (+I imagine, other judges primarily) today are happy / comfortable doing the same thing over and over. Hope next iteration of the contest is a bit bolder / different, I think our current map pool is great with lots of different flavors and has produced great games, but this as a set feels like a step back to me.

To be clear, I have no issue with maps individually, they are fine / good - but I think as a group they're lacking a little bit of spice - So alongside my congratulations to the finalists, I attach my condolences to map makers who put in thought and effort to try to make fun, interesting and unique maps to keep the game fresh and didn't make the cut.

It's always been that way unfortunately, and even if the judges were to pick vastly different maps, people would still vote for the Catalyst and Ascension to Aiur clones.
BUNNYYYYYYYYY https://i.imgur.com/BiCF577.png
ROOTCatZ
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
Peru1226 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-24 11:16:36
October 24 2022 11:12 GMT
#21
On October 24 2022 19:39 Durnuu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2022 19:34 ROOTCatZ wrote:
While most maps are playable, sadly a lot of the most fun / different maps didn't make it in to the voting stage which to me as 1/9 judges is rather disappointing, lots of same-ish maps to choose from, not a bad set by any means, just wish there was more variety because ultimately maps are essential to variety in gameplay / strategy and most players (+I imagine, other judges primarily) today are happy / comfortable doing the same thing over and over. Hope next iteration of the contest is a bit bolder / different, I think our current map pool is great with lots of different flavors and has produced great games, but this as a set feels like a step back to me.

To be clear, I have no issue with maps individually, they are fine / good - but I think as a group they're lacking a little bit of spice - So alongside my congratulations to the finalists, I attach my condolences to map makers who put in thought and effort to try to make fun, interesting and unique maps to keep the game fresh and didn't make the cut.

It's always been that way unfortunately, and even if the judges were to pick vastly different maps, people would still vote for the Catalyst and Ascension to Aiur clones.


I think our current map pool is evidence that that's not necessarily the case, it's not WILD but it's definitely one of the more fun map pools we've had in a long time imo; I've been a judge for TLMC on multiple occasions and consulted internally on the map selection process when Blizzard was more involved, for my taste, this is one of the more 'standard'(boring) sets to make it into the voting phase (and likely the ladder). Plus, during open voting I trust Wardi's tournament to show the viewers / potential player base which maps make for fun/diverse/interesting games vs low strategical variety/same-ish looking games on same-ish looking maps, again, I think that most pro players today (and judges) seem mostly content and ultimately comfortable with bottomless repetition - But I think it hurts interest in the game / viewing experience. On a personal level, and seemingly at this point a minority, as a player who enjoys exploring new ideas / adapting vs repeating / fine tuning, I am much less excited for this potential pool vs the last (current ladder pool).
Progamerwww.root-gaming.com
MrIronGolem27
Profile Joined July 2020
United States214 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-24 13:13:52
October 24 2022 13:03 GMT
#22
On October 24 2022 20:12 ROOTCatZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2022 19:39 Durnuu wrote:
On October 24 2022 19:34 ROOTCatZ wrote:
While most maps are playable, sadly a lot of the most fun / different maps didn't make it in to the voting stage which to me as 1/9 judges is rather disappointing, lots of same-ish maps to choose from, not a bad set by any means, just wish there was more variety because ultimately maps are essential to variety in gameplay / strategy and most players (+I imagine, other judges primarily) today are happy / comfortable doing the same thing over and over. Hope next iteration of the contest is a bit bolder / different, I think our current map pool is great with lots of different flavors and has produced great games, but this as a set feels like a step back to me.

To be clear, I have no issue with maps individually, they are fine / good - but I think as a group they're lacking a little bit of spice - So alongside my congratulations to the finalists, I attach my condolences to map makers who put in thought and effort to try to make fun, interesting and unique maps to keep the game fresh and didn't make the cut.

It's always been that way unfortunately, and even if the judges were to pick vastly different maps, people would still vote for the Catalyst and Ascension to Aiur clones.


I think our current map pool is evidence that that's not necessarily the case, it's not WILD but it's definitely one of the more fun map pools we've had in a long time imo; I've been a judge for TLMC on multiple occasions and consulted internally on the map selection process when Blizzard was more involved, for my taste, this is one of the more 'standard'(boring) sets to make it into the voting phase (and likely the ladder). Plus, during open voting I trust Wardi's tournament to show the viewers / potential player base which maps make for fun/diverse/interesting games vs low strategical variety/same-ish looking games on same-ish looking maps, again, I think that most pro players today (and judges) seem mostly content and ultimately comfortable with bottomless repetition - But I think it hurts interest in the game / viewing experience. On a personal level, and seemingly at this point a minority, as a player who enjoys exploring new ideas / adapting vs repeating / fine tuning, I am much less excited for this potential pool vs the last (current ladder pool).


I'm a bit less excited by the current set of finalists as well. The current map pool really is quite fun; Waterfall, Cosmic Sapphire, and Moondance have all been very successful subversions of the Rush, Standard, and Macro paradigms in my view (though the balance of Waterfall in particular could be debated) and made a very nice complement to the more standard Inside and Out, Tropical Sacrifice, and Data-C, if nothing else.

I'm unsure of how to match the current map pool by selecting purely from these TLMC17 finalists. I've got a fat mouth for making Cryolysis a pretty boring standard Rush map, and I'm not going to excuse it with my inexperience (I started learning 1v1 maps the day TLMC17 was announced), but overall I am not sure any of the finalists strongly subvert the tropes in their respective categories.

In particular, the boldest of the Freestyle submissions I personally saw were cut in the prescreening phase, which led to judges being presented with, what was in my opinion, a relatively weak Freestyle category. I'm sorry on behalf of everyone who tried to do something more bold than I did with my own Freestyle finalist. Even now, there are those who suggest to me that my own submission is not particularly Freestyle, and that the rocks won't make a real impact on the game if they're not placed on at least one of the 3rd bases, but discussing this further is beyond the scope of my comment and the TLMC tournament is better for dis/proving that point than my own words are.
HyperONE - mapmaker (TLMC19 2nd place, TLMC17 3rd+5th place), tournament organizer (organizer for the StarCraft Evolution League and Circle Derping), Liquipedia editor, Aligulac contributor, owner of Team HyperONE, and SC: Evo Complete developer
MrIronGolem27
Profile Joined July 2020
United States214 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-24 13:15:50
October 24 2022 13:11 GMT
#23
On October 24 2022 19:39 Durnuu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2022 19:34 ROOTCatZ wrote:
While most maps are playable, sadly a lot of the most fun / different maps didn't make it in to the voting stage which to me as 1/9 judges is rather disappointing, lots of same-ish maps to choose from, not a bad set by any means, just wish there was more variety because ultimately maps are essential to variety in gameplay / strategy and most players (+I imagine, other judges primarily) today are happy / comfortable doing the same thing over and over. Hope next iteration of the contest is a bit bolder / different, I think our current map pool is great with lots of different flavors and has produced great games, but this as a set feels like a step back to me.

To be clear, I have no issue with maps individually, they are fine / good - but I think as a group they're lacking a little bit of spice - So alongside my congratulations to the finalists, I attach my condolences to map makers who put in thought and effort to try to make fun, interesting and unique maps to keep the game fresh and didn't make the cut.

It's always been that way unfortunately, and even if the judges were to pick vastly different maps, people would still vote for the Catalyst and Ascension to Aiur clones.

I frankly doubt the average voter is more concerned with voting for the most standard maps than with anything of the following:
- their favorite mapmaker in the contest (or perhaps one they even know personally)
- whatever seems best for their own race/worst for races that are not their own
- whatever is prettiest to them
- whatever gives them a silly gimmick they think they abuse on ladder

The average voter is either a player who is going to ban their three least favorite maps on ladder or a spectator who is likely to prefer novel maps to boring ones (unless the boring ones are otherwise brilliant).
HyperONE - mapmaker (TLMC19 2nd place, TLMC17 3rd+5th place), tournament organizer (organizer for the StarCraft Evolution League and Circle Derping), Liquipedia editor, Aligulac contributor, owner of Team HyperONE, and SC: Evo Complete developer
Legan
Profile Joined June 2017
Finland402 Posts
October 24 2022 14:19 GMT
#24
Freestyle is in hard spot currently. Amount of maps that are at least solid is great in the three other categories. Only a few dip below 3 in their average score and some solid maps get cut in prescreening phase. Same time maps are very standardized in the three categories. Especially first four bases are formulaic as judges focus on them a lot. Generally the "rules" are less strict for other parts of the map. This creates situation where to succeed in macro, standard, or rush category you need to play safe and simple things like gold base can dip your points below the top 4 of category. Thus these maps can end up in freestyle where they are score above the more freestyle maps. Currently only option I see is that map makers would self regulate and keep Freestyle weirder while pushing smaller things to other categories. However this goes against the desire for success and seeing your map getting played in tournaments and ladder. The categories only need a map or two that do not self regulate and suddenly the top spots are taken. Maybe one could risk it if they knew that there are a few other contests to come in a year or so.
Creator of Gresvan, Tropical Sacrifice, Taitalika, and Golden Forge
Mizenhauer
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
United States1854 Posts
October 24 2022 14:25 GMT
#25
On October 24 2022 19:39 Durnuu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2022 19:34 ROOTCatZ wrote:
While most maps are playable, sadly a lot of the most fun / different maps didn't make it in to the voting stage which to me as 1/9 judges is rather disappointing, lots of same-ish maps to choose from, not a bad set by any means, just wish there was more variety because ultimately maps are essential to variety in gameplay / strategy and most players (+I imagine, other judges primarily) today are happy / comfortable doing the same thing over and over. Hope next iteration of the contest is a bit bolder / different, I think our current map pool is great with lots of different flavors and has produced great games, but this as a set feels like a step back to me.

To be clear, I have no issue with maps individually, they are fine / good - but I think as a group they're lacking a little bit of spice - So alongside my congratulations to the finalists, I attach my condolences to map makers who put in thought and effort to try to make fun, interesting and unique maps to keep the game fresh and didn't make the cut.

It's always been that way unfortunately, and even if the judges were to pick vastly different maps, people would still vote for the Catalyst and Ascension to Aiur clones.


Can't believe that Durn of all people forgot Catalyst is just a remix of Overgrowth with more bases.
┗|∵|┓Second Place in LB 28, Third Place in LB 29 and Destined to Be a Kong
Durnuu
Profile Joined September 2013
13320 Posts
October 24 2022 14:34 GMT
#26
On October 24 2022 23:25 Mizenhauer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2022 19:39 Durnuu wrote:
On October 24 2022 19:34 ROOTCatZ wrote:
While most maps are playable, sadly a lot of the most fun / different maps didn't make it in to the voting stage which to me as 1/9 judges is rather disappointing, lots of same-ish maps to choose from, not a bad set by any means, just wish there was more variety because ultimately maps are essential to variety in gameplay / strategy and most players (+I imagine, other judges primarily) today are happy / comfortable doing the same thing over and over. Hope next iteration of the contest is a bit bolder / different, I think our current map pool is great with lots of different flavors and has produced great games, but this as a set feels like a step back to me.

To be clear, I have no issue with maps individually, they are fine / good - but I think as a group they're lacking a little bit of spice - So alongside my congratulations to the finalists, I attach my condolences to map makers who put in thought and effort to try to make fun, interesting and unique maps to keep the game fresh and didn't make the cut.

It's always been that way unfortunately, and even if the judges were to pick vastly different maps, people would still vote for the Catalyst and Ascension to Aiur clones.


Can't believe that Durn of all people forgot Catalyst is just a remix of Overgrowth with more bases.

I do, but I also remember half the people on this website have never seen Overgrowth played competitively.
BUNNYYYYYYYYY https://i.imgur.com/BiCF577.png
shindiginit
Profile Joined November 2021
21 Posts
October 24 2022 15:44 GMT
#27
Thank you so much everyone who submitted. These maps look amazing
IIEclipseII
Profile Joined February 2016
Germany157 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-24 15:54:14
October 24 2022 15:48 GMT
#28
On October 24 2022 19:34 ROOTCatZ wrote:
While most maps are playable, sadly a lot of the most fun / different maps didn't make it in to the voting stage which to me as 1/9 judges is rather disappointing, lots of same-ish maps to choose from, not a bad set by any means, just wish there was more variety because ultimately maps are essential to variety in gameplay / strategy and most players (+I imagine, other judges primarily) today are happy / comfortable doing the same thing over and over. Hope next iteration of the contest is a bit bolder / different, I think our current map pool is great with lots of different flavors and has produced great games, but this as a set feels like a step back to me.

To be clear, I have no issue with maps individually, they are fine / good - but I think as a group they're lacking a little bit of spice - So alongside my congratulations to the finalists, I attach my condolences to map makers who put in thought and effort to try to make fun, interesting and unique maps to keep the game fresh and didn't make the cut.


You speak right from my soul. Your condolences are received.

edit:

suggestion: Test the maps in a big open tournament. Everyone can participate and each match is given a random set of maps from all the submissions.
The players could then vote the maps they enjoyed the most playing on, independent on if they lost or won.
So not only players but also maps would gradually advance. Some Judges picked maps could also be given a second chance in a later stage of the tournament.
-NegativeZero-
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2141 Posts
October 25 2022 01:37 GMT
#29
On October 24 2022 23:25 Mizenhauer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2022 19:39 Durnuu wrote:
On October 24 2022 19:34 ROOTCatZ wrote:
While most maps are playable, sadly a lot of the most fun / different maps didn't make it in to the voting stage which to me as 1/9 judges is rather disappointing, lots of same-ish maps to choose from, not a bad set by any means, just wish there was more variety because ultimately maps are essential to variety in gameplay / strategy and most players (+I imagine, other judges primarily) today are happy / comfortable doing the same thing over and over. Hope next iteration of the contest is a bit bolder / different, I think our current map pool is great with lots of different flavors and has produced great games, but this as a set feels like a step back to me.

To be clear, I have no issue with maps individually, they are fine / good - but I think as a group they're lacking a little bit of spice - So alongside my congratulations to the finalists, I attach my condolences to map makers who put in thought and effort to try to make fun, interesting and unique maps to keep the game fresh and didn't make the cut.

It's always been that way unfortunately, and even if the judges were to pick vastly different maps, people would still vote for the Catalyst and Ascension to Aiur clones.


Can't believe that Durn of all people forgot Catalyst is just a remix of Overgrowth with more bases.

Excuse me, it's a remix of a remix of Cloud Kingdom that just happened to come out looking like a remix of Overgrowth.

It's remixes all the way down
vibeo gane,
_fool
Profile Joined February 2011
Netherlands677 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-25 07:41:25
October 25 2022 07:41 GMT
#30
On October 24 2022 22:03 MrIronGolem27 wrote:

In particular, the boldest of the Freestyle submissions I personally saw were cut in the prescreening phase, which led to judges being presented with, what was in my opinion, a relatively weak Freestyle category.


Can you give some examples of the bold ideas we missed out on?
"News is to the mind what sugar is to the body"
InfCereal
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada1759 Posts
October 25 2022 13:02 GMT
#31
Ancient Ciste has got to be the most stereotypically sc2 map of all time. Like the boiled chicken of sc2 maps.

That has to win the standard category. It's offensively standard. It should be in the dictionary next to the word "standard" as a definition.
Cereal
OmniSkeptic
Profile Joined January 2021
Canada70 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-28 04:02:05
October 25 2022 22:06 GMT
#32
Pretty disappointed in the overall pool compared to the feeling I got when we got our existing ladder maps tbh. Just too many copy paste jobs present. Play the game of if you can spot which map is Triton, which map is Inside and Out, and which map is Waterfall and those are just the super obvious ones. I bet those of us with longer memories or the will to go back into past pools could find more.

I'll probably vote: Taitalika, Silver Wall, Black Engine, Babylon, and last Erreholm

Here's to hoping for more bold ideas in the future. We're not getting future patches anymore so we better start making it fresh with maps.

Wish I could give out more points because there are some pretty cool maps like Lazarus up for voting; I just adore alternative mineral bases. Altitude's destructible tower on top of a Xel'naga is pure awesome.
Mapmaker and M1 Terran from Canada. Most notable maps include 1st place TLMC#19 finalist "Anomaly Found", ladder map "NeoHumanity", and other maps that try to be competitive yet non-standard such as Fear and Faith or the asymmetrical Gridworm
kochanfe
Profile Joined July 2011
Micronesia1338 Posts
October 26 2022 21:12 GMT
#33
Voted.
"The flame that burns twice as bright burns half as long." - Lao Tzu
kochanfe
Profile Joined July 2011
Micronesia1338 Posts
October 26 2022 21:13 GMT
#34
On October 25 2022 22:02 InfCereal wrote:
Ancient Ciste has got to be the most stereotypically sc2 map of all time. Like the boiled chicken of sc2 maps.

That has to win the standard category. It's offensively standard. It should be in the dictionary next to the word "standard" as a definition.


What does it say about me, I wonder, that it was my top pick of the bunch? You're not wrong haha, I guess I'm just boring ^^
"The flame that burns twice as bright burns half as long." - Lao Tzu
MayOnFire
Profile Joined March 2021
England47 Posts
October 26 2022 21:42 GMT
#35
There are a few maps that stand out to me, like Electron and Erreholm. Interesting layouts and good usage of watch towers that were taken in every game played so far in the Wardii TLMC tournament. I think that many map makers would like to
update the layouts seeing how the maps are played. I hope that many things will balance out in the post-iteration. Looking forward to it.
Ladder Map Pool : Curious Minds, Amphion, Cosmic Sapphire, Royal Blood, Dragon Scales, Hard Lead, Whispers of Gold + four times TLMC finalist, and other sc2 related content // https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/MayOnFire
monitor
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2404 Posts
October 26 2022 22:18 GMT
#36
Voted. My favorites are Altitude, Electron, Dragon Scales, Electron, and Babylon.

Also - I agree with the previous sentiments that the results from this TLMC are mostly re-skinned layouts from previous maps (not 100%, but very close for almost every single map including mine). Happy to have a map in the finals but I think from here on out I will be focused on making balanced maps that offer a new perspective in some way instead of recreating what we already have multiple copies of - which aligns a lot more with what I enjoy about playing and watching the game.
Mapmaker & TLMC Judge. Amygdala, Frostline, Crimson Court, and Korhal Compound (WoL).
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10333 Posts
October 28 2022 05:43 GMT
#37
So many maps, and so much work. Great job to everyone!
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Cobblestone05
Profile Joined November 2021
8 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-28 16:22:12
October 28 2022 16:21 GMT
#38
MacSed was an absolute disgrace of a judge. Truly horrendous especially when you take into consideration the money and things at stakes. But I mean what can you expect from someone who is willing to throw against a diamond player for money ))
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