For good and ill, the most recent balance patch was pretty conservative. That's understandable, but I think there are some issues in SC2 that can't be addressed without making big changes. There are a number that should be considered, but I want to talk about the Mothership in this post.
The high cost (both in resources and supply), slow movement, and limit of one at a time suggests that the Mothership was meant as a powerhouse, something that was scary but, due to it only being able to be in one place at once (and being slow to relocate), one which could be defeated by the opponent outpositioning it.
That's not how it's worked out though, and that's for two reasons: 1. That role is already filled by Carrier fleets. 2. The Mothership sucks.
Okay, the cloaking can sometimes be useful. But Timewarp is never used and Mass Recall is used less often than that. It's not too surprising: Timewarp comes at a time when armies are pretty huge, so an AoE slowdown doesn't do a lot and is simply weaker than similar abilities like Fungal Growth. Compared to trying to land Storm and Disruptor shots, it's just not worth the time to cast. And because the Mothership is, as previously mentioned, extremely slow and expensive, trying to set up an offensive Recall with it is both enormously high risk and pretty easy to stop.
Rather than a powerhouse, this leaves the Mothership as an extremely expensive unit that's occasionally thrown in as little more than a passive support unit/abduct target. It's not exciting and it's not impactful. What little it does do synergizes with Skytoss, a composition most people want to be less prevalent.
Now, what I think is likely to happen (or at least likely to happen in the unlikely event that Protoss is ever buffed) is some very minor fiddling with numbers. I'd like to suggest a different approach, and that's to look at what's worked before.
If you've never played or watched Brood War, here's how it goes: The Arbiter is like the Mothership, except good. It might not seem that way at first. It's still quite expensive and has DPS slightly below that of a Probe. But it's actually used. Compared to the Mothership, the Arbiter can get around faster, is cheaper, and you can have more than one at a time. As a result, sending them in for Recalls actually makes sense sometimes. And rather than having the pretty near irrelevant ability to slow down the enemy if they decide to sit in the area you've indicated you'd like to slow down, it has a similar effect to a Stasis Trap, leaving a chunk of the enemy force immobile (though also immune to damage), allowing Protoss to pick fights with only part of the opposing army, essentially the lategame equivalent of Force Field.
It's also arrived at via a different tech path than Carriers, yet is produced out of Stargates, meaning that (in BW) it's almost always used in combination with ground units, not as part of a Golden Armada.
Now, I do realize that the creation of new art and programming is pretty unlikely at this point SC2's life. And so proposing what's essentially a complete replacement of the unit might just be insane. However, the art and programming already exists in the form of a coop hero unit, Fenix with the "Cybros Arbiter" armor. If that Arbiter model doesn't fit stylistically and for some reason can't just have some minor retexturing, a scaled-down Mothership model or Mothership Core model could be used, as they would no longer be in the game. Keep calling it the "Mothership," even, if you want.
That's not to say that there wouldn't be some work involved (namely, a few icons, the production animation for the Stargate, and either an actual Arbiter Tribunal building or, more likely, an upgrade added to some other structure in order to unlock the ability to build them), but I don't think this change would be completely outside the realm of possibility given that it already sorta exists:
It is a bit painful how bad that unit is and honestly, I wish that your idea was implemented and there was Arbiters vs. the Mothership.
But, since that seems quite literally WAY out of the realm of possibility..
I would prefer a buff to the Adept or should I say shifting it's power away from being a dedicated ling/drone killer and into a more general purpose frontline unit that enables Protoss to create skirmishes in the early game.
PvT is pretty good and fun to watch
ZvT is the best match up in the game
PvZ is the worst non mirror, because it lacks something that both of those match ups have. Early game skirmishes where small advantages can be eeked out with superior control.
I hope changes that encourage that type of play are looked into by this balance team/council of evil thing. I think little changes in the right direction could eventually arrive to the destination.
Yeah, I wouldn't mind if toss has something like this as long as it's designed/tweaked for sc2 since Zerg doesn't have detection on overlord anymore and smart casting would make the Arbiter pretty broken. I would love it if toss can use the Arbiter alongside their ground army to disable lurkers or maybe even freeze up banes so toss ground doesn't get obliterated in an instant.
On March 21 2022 05:25 Beelzebub1 wrote: But, since that seems quite literally WAY out of the realm of possibility..
I really don't think it is? I mean, I'd be surprised if they did all of this and totally took the Mothership out. But reworking it so it's in line cost and stats wise with the Arbiter, allowing building multiple from Stargates, and then switching out Timewarp for a different ability that's already in the game? It would probably be an entire patch in and of itself, but I think it's possible, even with the low commitment to maintaining SC2.
Agree with your other comments on the matchup.
On March 21 2022 06:52 phodacbiet wrote: Yeah, I wouldn't mind if toss has something like this as long as it's designed/tweaked for sc2 since Zerg doesn't have detection on overlord anymore and smart casting would make the Arbiter pretty broken. I would love it if toss can use the Arbiter alongside their ground army to disable lurkers or maybe even freeze up banes so toss ground doesn't get obliterated in an instant.
Making life a little harder for Zerg (vs Protoss ground, at least) is one of the main goals the change I'm proposing, so I'm not super concerned about that.
Smart casting is a problem, I agree, but it's a universal problem to spellcasters in SC2. Since Arbiters don't really deal damage and are quite expensive I think they'd be less of a problem than most, being harder to mass up, but you're right there would need to be some testing and tweaking.
The detection point is interesting though, I hadn't thought of that. Lategame I think there would be enough Spores+Overseers that it wouldn't be too unreasonable though--it's not like Motherships present a huge problem as is.
I think it is. When was the last time they removed a unit in any Starcraft RTS? The only thing I can think of is Warhound is that during beta. I don't think they'll do that, ever. It possibly looks bad and I dont think the small team can do it.
On March 21 2022 15:30 lestye wrote: I think it is. When was the last time they removed a unit in any Starcraft RTS? The only thing I can think of is Warhound is that during beta. I don't think they'll do that, ever. It possibly looks bad and I dont think the small team can do it.
Edit: Oh also the Replicant
Mothership Core immediately springs to mind. You could argue Infested Terrans as well, althought that is considered more of an ability.
Oh, I doubt they'll end up completely removing the Mothership it and switching the graphics entirely (hadn't been thinking about skins when I suggested that was a possibility). But I do think redesigning the Mothership so that it's functionally very similar to the Arbiter is doable, and absolutely needs to be done. Protoss not having a Tier 3 spellcaster really screws them.
I just think if it can't be aducted that would be enough.
Vs terran it will never be used due to Scan, but vs Protoss and Zerg it has some niche uses.
As for the other guy mentioning adepts. I've always thought they could have put an upgrade for adepts/stalkers on the HT archives that would make those units more useful in the lategame.
I really don't think it is? I mean, I'd be surprised if they did all of this and totally took the Mothership out. But reworking it so it's in line cost and stats wise with the Arbiter, allowing building multiple from Stargates, and then switching out Timewarp for a different ability that's already in the game? It would probably be an entire patch in and of itself, but I think it's possible, even with the low commitment to maintaining SC2
Believe me when I say that I also wish this would happen, but this would be more then just one patch, adding another potent late game spell caster in the game would break pro play at least for a little while, you're talking about fundamentally altering the way the game is played.
Once again, if this were the world you and I apparently wished we lived in, we'd have a balance team that would be willing to make aggressive changes like this. Sadly, I just don't think that's the case, the pro's or whoever is on this balance team will probably avoid big changes unless they are obviously imba (like the early Queen walk) just to err on the side of safety.
As for the other guy mentioning adepts. I've always thought they could have put an upgrade for adepts/stalkers on the HT archives that would make those units more useful in the lategame.
Not what I think the Adept needs personally, they already have a potent upgrade in Twilight but I think the issue there is that unless you are rushing to do a Glaive all in, Adepts just fall off way too hard past the early game.
I think that the next change that is probably a bit more reasonable would be something like requiring 2 Biles for each FF vs. only 1. This would kind of push the Sentry back into the spotlight and allow high level Protoss to make plays. Back in the days of yore, good FF play was absolutely essential to put pressure on the Zerg early on. Would be nice to see another, "high skill element" of Protoss buffed.
I like the Arbiter, but they could also just easily remove the 1 unit limit of a Mothership on the map. It's 8 supply, so I rly don't think it can be OP even. Time Warp has a load up time, before it slows, if removed Mothership would already be good again. Vortex was hella kewl and I also don't think it's an issue anymore in the current state of LotV. They could buff the Mothership, so it doesn't move around stupidly, though I do like units having unique downsides, so I'm not for this. There are just so many things they could do with it. I also had an idea that the Mothership could come at the cost of the Nexus, since the Mothership is like a flying city, I think it would be hella kewl if your Nexus transformed into a Mothership
Toss is also the weakest late game race at the pro level currently, so we kind of need the help. The one thing I don't agree with is making it not able to get Abducted, I also think they should make it so it can be Neuraled again, since these are the things, which it makes sense that they counter this unit. A healthy change which would also help the Mothership is making it so Fungal Growth only damages, but doesn't root Massive units.
I think most people agree that the Mothership sucks in its current form, -400/400 is a meme for a reason. Changing up it's abilities would be nice as currently it's a "shoot here" sign. My personal moonshot of a balance change would be a shuffling of all of it's abilities.
Remove cloak field and replace it was a power field. Units in the power field regen energy at double rates and shield regen is now constant like Zerg (so the delay is removed). It also otherwise functions like a Nexus/Pylon power field.
Replace Time Warp is Void Shields. For 25 seconds, units and structures affected by the Void Shield ability are cloaked so long as they have shields so you don't need detection long term to counter the ability but also the Mothership doesn't need to be out and as vulnerable to cloak things. This also means while you might have just the one Mothership, it can support splitting up your army.
Then I'd like to give it a third ability like a primary spellcaster tends to have: Synchronize. Synchronize lets the Mothership copy a spell from another caster after a few second casting time. The copied ability is upgraded to be fitting of being on a unique unit. Single target abilities become AOE with a set radius the size of Psi Storm. AOE abilities get their cost halved (rounded down). Abilities that produce things get doubled (i.e. Hallucination would produce double the units). This would of course be the most complicated thing to implement.
The changes would hopefully make the Mothership a good support unit that is dangerous without needing to be with an army but grants a ton of sustain to an army it is traveling with making it a cost benefit of whether you keep it safely in the back providing resupply or move it into the front lines where it strengths all the units around it
I think the problem also comes with the carrier taking the role that the mothership was intended to do. It can function as a late game spellcaster, which wouldn't hurt, but when it is limited to being one unit, you need some really serious spells. If instead it was a dps powerhouse, it would be interesting. But, the carrier is already a big, slow and flying high dps unit.
Many people agree that if the Mothership could not be abducted, it would be an interesting unit in some late-game PvZ scenario. Let's push for this realistic change.
On June 09 2022 01:51 sirok_ wrote: Many people agree that if the Mothership could not be abducted, it would be an interesting unit in some late-game PvZ scenario. Let's push for this realistic change.
I wouldn't mind if Abduct was unable to yoink any Massive unit tbh.
Literally any change that encourages or empowers stupid air deathballs should not be considered. Making skytoss units impossible to abduct very much counts as empowering stupid air deathballs.
@op: as far as big and unlikely changes go, I quite like the general gist of this one.
On June 09 2022 21:55 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Literally any change that encourages or empowers stupid air deathballs should not be considered. Making skytoss units impossible to abduct very much counts as empowering stupid air deathballs.
@op: as far as big and unlikely changes go, I quite like the general gist of this one.
Completely agree with the aerial deathballs. I think that Abduct is also kind of broken vs. massive units but tbh without the Viper what's to stop Protoss from just massing deathballs again?
I agree removing mothership and adding arbiter, but then i also think terran needs to be changed to as well, instead of thor add more mobile mech long range aa, whatever it is.
On June 10 2022 01:26 dph114 wrote: I agree removing mothership and adding arbiter, but then i also think terran needs to be changed to as well, instead of thor add more mobile mech long range aa, whatever it is.
Comparing to some other units, thors have a real spot. And eventually, thors could benefit from a +1 range in order to avoid the stupid mass air viking in TvT. From a viewer point of view, his big collision box seems a real advantage in narrow maps. That s why Thors aren t a priority in a changes list. Without talking of spellcasters (and so rapid fire), units like Lurkers, Banelings or Disruptors, or spells like blink DT and maybe in some degree widow mines could benefit of changes before Thors.
On June 10 2022 01:26 dph114 wrote: I agree removing mothership and adding arbiter, but then i also think terran needs to be changed to as well, instead of thor add more mobile mech long range aa, whatever it is.
Comparing to some other units, thors have a real spot. And eventually, thors could benefit from a +1 range in order to avoid the stupid mass air viking in TvT. From a viewer point of view, his big collision box seems a real advantage in narrow maps. That s why Thors aren t a priority in a changes list. Without talking of spellcasters (and so rapid fire), units like Lurkers, Banelings or Disruptors, or spells like blink DT and maybe in some degree widow mines could benefit of changes before Thors.
Speaking of switching out units, I'd love to see overly swingy Widow Mines and/or Hellions removed in favor of Vultures. I think that would make mech a lot more viable.
On June 10 2022 01:26 dph114 wrote: I agree removing mothership and adding arbiter, but then i also think terran needs to be changed to as well, instead of thor add more mobile mech long range aa, whatever it is.
Comparing to some other units, thors have a real spot. And eventually, thors could benefit from a +1 range in order to avoid the stupid mass air viking in TvT. From a viewer point of view, his big collision box seems a real advantage in narrow maps. That s why Thors aren t a priority in a changes list. Without talking of spellcasters (and so rapid fire), units like Lurkers, Banelings or Disruptors, or spells like blink DT and maybe in some degree widow mines could benefit of changes before Thors.
Speaking of switching out units, I'd love to see overly swingy Widow Mines and/or Hellions removed in favor of Vultures. I think that would make mech a lot more viable.
I agree. The idea of vultures with mines is great, but casual or hardcore players can have problems to deal with it while they are interessant at pro level. As the game is really APM demanding, some units are really frustating, and if vultures/mines are introduced, the challenge would be to make them appealing regardless your skill level (especially against invisibility). That s why i propose some strategic changes as decrease the number of workers by 2, use forbidden ground to allow harvesting at distance (and protect workers), decrease fights overall speed and more....
Every new unit on SC2 was basically trash and good units were copypaste from BW. I'm down for arbiter but I don't believe there's anyone left in team to risk pushing new units. I'm not hating SC2 by the way, I really think it still has so much potential.
On June 10 2022 00:03 QOGQOG wrote: Yeah, the only real issue on that front would be unit skins.
Arbiters and all SC1 units are available in Campaign and Coop (as enemy units)
And that includes variants for all the different skins they've released for Competitive? I wasn't aware, but if that's the case, great!
On June 11 2022 04:28 outscar wrote: Every new unit on SC2 was basically trash and good units were copypaste from BW. I'm down for arbiter but I don't believe there's anyone left in team to risk pushing new units. I'm not hating SC2 by the way, I really think it still has so much potential.
Don't know I'd 100% agree, but I do think that there were/are some issues with units that either made different races feel more similar to one another (i.e. adding a tanky, short-range, ground-to-ground tier 1.5 unit with a movement-related gimmick to all three) or just didn't have a clear vision for how the unit should actually work (Swarm Host, Reaper, most high-tech Protoss units).
The Mothership strikes me as a particularly weird, vestigial unit, hence the original post. Since the Mothership Core was removed it just doesn't make much sense, and despite being a meme for years has barely been tweaked. Now, the concept of a powerful but slow-moving unit you'd have to deal with by splitting your opponent's attention or otherwise outmaneuvering them is totally fine, but that's literally what mass Carriers do and have done since SC1. And it's just straight-up worse than an Arbiter despite the fact you can only build one (who would want more?) and the absurd cost. The concept is not inherently poor design in and of itself, but there was seemingly no care put into whether it had an open niche.
I have a very, very slight hope that an update might at least try what I'm suggesting now that there's a group beyond Blizzard looking at balance, but it's been pretty much radio silence since that one patch, so I'm certainly not holding my breath.
EPT![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/7/7b/SCArbiter.jpg)
and honestly, I wish that your idea was implemented and there was Arbiters vs. the Mothership.
