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angry_maia
327 Posts
When playing 2 stargate void, isn't it relatively common to have 1 oracle on the map? And instead of killing like 3 drones, can't you just tag hatcheries or tag the queens? It just seems weird to me that scouting is an issue with a unit like an oracle. Furthermore, if no oracles, protoss can still build hallucinated pheonixes to run around and check timings. Is there something obvious I'm missing? I'm not trying to say I know how to play pvz better than trap.. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4135 Posts
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TheCheapSkate
Slovenia317 Posts
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
Not exactly a lot of variety in responses when you only have 1 unit | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12391 Posts
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
Depending on the build, you may or might not have 1 sentry, which you could use to hallucinate phoenix, however you also want to save enegy for guardian shield. You won't have more than 1 sentry as you need gas for other units. Going startgate doesn't mean you'll go oracle, because, again, you might need the gas for other units. If you decided to go double stargate VR for example, you won't make an oracle. Now, you can scout with the VR as well, and they are good at killing overlords, but they aren't as good as an oracle at scouting so the Zerg can delay or move things around to more easily deny the scout. Even then, most pros are good at suspecting the queen walk is coming, but then the problem is Queens are pretty good agaisn't VR. Protoss take a long time to tech switch, so if the zerg managed to delay your scout, you're in trouble. In fact, even if you scout perfectly, you are in trouble. Queen walks are incredibly hard to stop even with good scout and it will depend a lot on micro, targetting, batteries available, if you have cannons and even building position. Finally due to how slow queens are maps are also a big factor and queen walks will be stronger on shorter maps. So yeah, tl;dr is that you won't always scout with sentries/oracles even when goping startaget due to gas cost. Even if you do scout, Queen walks are very strong specially on shorter maps. | ||
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angry_maia
327 Posts
On November 24 2021 06:31 [Phantom] wrote: Scouting is tricky in PvZ and it's one of the biggest problems Protoss has. Many zergs bulds look pretty similar and your only scouting optins are the early probe, the 1 adept. Depending on the build, you may or might not have 1 sentry, which you could use to hallucinate phoenix, however you also want to save enegy for guardian shield. You won't have more than 1 sentry as you need gas for other units. Going startgate doesn't mean you'll go oracle, because, again, you might need the gas for other units. If you decided to go double stargate VR for example, you won't make an oracle. Now, you can scout with the VR as well, and they are good at killing overlords, but they aren't as good as an oracle at scouting so the Zerg can delay or move things around to more easily deny the scout. Even then, most pros are good at suspecting the queen walk is coming, but then the problem is Queens are pretty good agaisn't VR. Protoss take a long time to tech switch, so if the zerg managed to delay your scout, you're in trouble. In fact, even if you scout perfectly, you are in trouble. Queen walks are incredibly hard to stop even with good scout and it will depend a lot on micro, targetting, batteries available, if you have cannons and even building position. Finally due to how slow queens are maps are also a big factor and queen walks will be stronger on shorter maps. So yeah, tl;dr is that you won't always scout with sentries/oracles even when goping startaget due to gas cost. Even if you do scout, Queen walks are very strong specially on shorter maps. Thanks for the answer! So for a queen walk, how early does toss have to "know it's coming" to be fully prepared? | ||
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Drahkn
195 Posts
Zerg can also instantly shift from full eco focus to pure unit production and if you are not scouting within this small window of time(you cant constantly watch what pops out of zerg eggs) , you will not know about the attack until it is already on its way to your base which is why they can be so hard to stop. The only tell is high queen count but this is standard defensive response to stargate play anyway but yeah , you never know at what number of queens they will start the walk, and if you focus to much on defense and zerg doesn't attack you are very behind on eco and tech. Your only option is to keep units outside zerg base and watch for the queen march constantly so you get as much time to react as possible, the direction of creep spread and map is also good ways to get reads into if he is likely to queen march you. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 24 2021 15:36 angry_maia wrote: Thanks for the answer! So for a queen walk, how early does toss have to "know it's coming" to be fully prepared? So you can finish the defensive buildings - e.g. DT(nonlair queen walks) or disruptors. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1399 Posts
On the other hand, Zerg players don't need to make any major changes to their regular build in order to perform a Queen walk. The main (macro scale) difference between a Zerg who intends to Queen walk and a Zerg who doesn't intend to Queen walk is choosing to hold down the R/Z key or the D key during a given round of production. This means that a Zerg who sees something like Disruptors being made can easily choose not to Queen walk instead. Scouting isn't really the problem because there isn't anything to scout prior to the Zerg deciding to commit to an attack; Protoss players can't justify making defensive units pre-emptively because they know that Zerg players can easily adjust their build if they see those defensive units being made. The best that Protoss players can do is throw down static defence the moment a Queen walk moves out and hope that they have enough of it finished in time. | ||
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Harstem
Netherlands263 Posts
On November 24 2021 21:18 MJG wrote: On the one hand, Protoss players want to cut corners so that they don't waste gas on midgame units they don't intend to use for their endgame composition. Units like Disruptors are great at stopping Queen walks, but producing them heavily delays the transition into the Skytoss/Templar army that Protoss needs for the lategame. On the other hand, Zerg players don't need to make any major changes to their regular build in order to perform a Queen walk. The main (macro scale) difference between a Zerg who intends to Queen walk and a Zerg who doesn't intend to Queen walk is choosing to hold down the R/Z key or the D key during a given round of production. This means that a Zerg who sees something like Disruptors being made can easily choose not to Queen walk instead. Scouting isn't really the problem because there isn't anything to scout prior to the Zerg deciding to commit to an attack; Protoss players can't justify making defensive units pre-emptively because they know that Zerg players can easily adjust their build if they see those defensive units being made. The best that Protoss players can do is throw down static defence the moment a Queen walk moves out and hope that they have enough of it finished in time. This is by far the best answer in the thread. One thing missing is that you can scout earlier gas timings which are an indication of a queen walk, but don't 100% of the time lead to a queen walk. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Queen walk is almost like hydra bust in BW. The timing of the bust is super sharp. Toss has to keep scouting non-stop to know whether the bust is incoming or Zerg is faking and simply droning behind. A bust is a slight deviation from their normal build order. Contrast this with DT and double Statgate. Toss has to commit, and can't really transition and fake as well as Zerg. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 25 2021 23:19 RKC wrote: Yes, most answers have it spot-on. The problem is that Zerg builds are incredibly flexible. A single building is all that is required for a tech switch (whereas Toss and Terran needs to build multiple production buildings). That's why busts and fake busts are so common in BW and SC2. Queen walk is almost like hydra bust in BW. The timing of the bust is super sharp. Toss has to keep scouting non-stop to know whether the bust is incoming or Zerg is faking and simply droning behind. A bust is a slight deviation from their normal build order. Contrast this with DT and double Statgate. Toss has to commit, and can't really transition and fake as well as Zerg. This actually comes down to the scouting issue partially, it's hard to scout when hallucinations die so easily, especially against queen heavy styles. And the issue is that queen isn't exactly a wrong choice. Which comes down back to the queens design xD | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Hallucinations is a big help in SC2, but easily die to Queens. One difference between both games is that BW's build orders are more linear and predictable (one can make a good tell from timing of second gas, building placement, etc). Whereas LOTV's faster economic scale obscures a lot of early game builds. | ||
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Vision_
874 Posts
On November 27 2021 12:34 RKC wrote: Yes, there's always some element of scouting imbalance between races (especially BW). Zerg can basically park an ovie in Protoss base in early game, or hide safely on a cliff. Hallucinations is a big help in SC2, but easily die to Queens. One difference between both games is that BW's build orders are more linear and predictable (one can make a good tell from timing of second gas, building placement, etc). Whereas LOTV's faster economic scale obscures a lot of early game builds. Yes it s true, the faster economic scale has slightly put Zerg ahead for 6 seconds (half a drone), and like the game starts later, the chance of protoss to scout buildings is lesser than in HotS at the beginning. In other hand the reduction of minerals per pack is good. The worst thing in this decision, it s the explication of Blizzard which involve shorter game while nobody have complained about that, only winning one minute to help casters and plug the emptyness of a strategy game where ressources are easy to harvest. If you wanna make the game appealing at start, you have to places some gas less or far away from the main base, where workers has to go and come back while your army is supposed (or no) defend them. (Only the first base can collect the gas OFC) Then maps will become pretty open, and each bases will be promoted to gather gas aside (on their left or right and in their back why not ?) while actually, the developpement of each players is mainly oriented to the middle (due to the position of each players in corners). Games like Dune or Red Alert is played like this, and not SC2, which is the biggest mistake made by Blizzard. | ||
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freelifeffs
97 Posts
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ThunderJunk
United States725 Posts
Protoss doesn't have passive scouting options like that. Tagging enemy units with Oracles is difficult and attention-intensive. Observers are easily picked off if they're just passively left in a position. If they are kept in the base, they don't give useful information. Compounding the issue - Stargate gives away what is in construction, and tech buildings tend to give away pretty clearly what can be produced at any given time, with obvious trade-offs. So Protoss bases are easier to scout too. By contrast, since everything comes out of the hatchery and all eggs look the same, less information can be gleaned from just looking at their base. Then there's scans, which give you scouting information anywhere with no variability in risk to loss. It's pretty disingenuous to make the argument that protoss has easier scouting than T or Z. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 28 2021 05:26 freelifeffs wrote: everyone saying scouting is difficult... its not. protoss literally has the best scouting tools in the game and OP does have a point. i also noticed very often protoss pros have sentries but never make a hallucinated phoenix and then die to a spire or something else. im not saying that my master league opponents are better than trap, but they sure as hell are better at scouting. there isnt a minute that goes buy without me having at least 2 hallucinations flying through my base and it baffles me that pros seem uncapable to do it. it might have to do with greed. they feel like they can rely on their game sense and rather save the energy for 1 more forcefield or whatever which i think is a mistake. but what do i know. Consistent scouting is difficult. Hallucination vision is limited and can be denied pretty easily, also you miss the tiny incy spot where the tech is and you're fucked. Similar to the "just scan" or "just scout", I mean FFS, we had games where the players literally scouted almost the whole map and missed the proxy by pixels. | ||
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Sprog
New Zealand83 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 29 2021 06:00 Sprog wrote: The sentry needs to be tuned to be a little bit more relevant. It's good that halluc is cheaper to cast, problem is sentries aren't really worth 50min/100gas/gateway production time This. Honestly sentry is good mostly for the +2 armor cheat, especially against Terrans, but then Stalkers are bulky, Templars slow and chargelots charge out of it xD | ||
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Harry3
3 Posts
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