Not even a 0-3 deficit can get between Maru and the Code S finals. The four-time Code S champion pulled off a miraculous reverse-sweep against Trap in their Code S Season 1 semifinal match, advancing to the finals for his second consecutive season. Maru's previous attempt to win a fifth Code S title in 2020's Season 3 finals was thwarted by TY—this time he will go up against another formidable opponent in Rogue.
The semifinal match between the two former Jin Air players began with Maru being little more than a punching bag for a rejuvenated Trap, who showed the same dominant form that allowed him to win multiple championships in the lead-up to IEM Katowice 2021. From impervious early-game defense to strong macro play, or even getting a cheeky build order win, Trap displayed the full suite of championship-tier PvT skills to go up 3-0.
Trap seemed close to earning a clean 4-0 sweep in game four, executing a cheeky proxy-Tempest strategy and establishing a daunting formation of Shield Batteries right outside Maru's main base. However, Trap lost track of Maru's defending Vikings and committed the terrible blunder of moving his Tempests too far away from the Batteries, allowing Maru to pick the capital ships off and steal a victory.
Despite the deflating nature of Trap's game four loss, few would have expected that it would snowball into an utter disaster. Game five saw Trap's previously impeccable defense go out the window, with a crippling early Hellion strike allowing Maru to take an easy victory. Game six then headed to the GSL-specific map of Nautilus, where both players tried to exploit the unique geography of the four player map with proxy tactics. Unfortunately for Trap, his hidden Dark Templars were easily repelled by a cautious Maru, forcing an all-or-nothing game seven.
Having come back to force an unlikely game seven on Lightshade, Maru gambled his tournament life on a proxy 2-Barracks Bunker rush—the very same one he had attempted unsuccessfully against Hurricane in his prior quarterfinal match. The mind game of 'he can't possibly think I'd try it again' paid off for Maru, with Trap just barely failing to scout out the proxy-Barracks (unlike Hurricane, who discovered it early). Trap had no chance of stopping the unscouted Bunker rush, and was forced to concede his fourth and final GG of the series.
After the series, even Maru couldn't offer much of an explanation for how he pulled off what seemed like an impossible comeback. He admitted to having essentially given up after going down 0-3, and that he had taken a break to gather himself headed into game four. Regarding Trap's pivotal game four blunder, he described it with typical Maru plainness "Seongho let his guard down a bit."
In any case, history is guaranteed to be made when Maru faces Rogue in the grand finals. Either Maru will win the G5L trophy, or Rogue will improve his record in major grand finals to a staggering 8-0. Maru played down the hype about his chances of winning the G5L, choosing to praise Rogue instead "Honestly, I think [Rogue] is the best Zerg, so I'm not really sure [about winning the G5L] yet." Maru will face Rogue in the Code S Season 1 finals on Thursday, May 06 9:30am GMT (GMT+00:00).
Match Recaps
Semifinal #2: Trap vs Maru
Game 1 - Jagannatha: Maru opened with a greedy Reactor-Barracks into triple-CC build, while Trap proxied a Stargate for Oracle harassment. Maru seemed to get off to a fantastic start as he scouted out the proxied Stargate and took minimal damage from Trap's harassment, despite Trap making as many as three Oracles.
Maru played out his early economic lead passively, giving Trap the time to transition into Templars and mass Gateway units. Maru eventually got his war machine running at full steam just as Trap tried to secure his fourth base. For a moment, it seemed like Trap might be hard pressed to stop Maru's famed multi-prong attacks, but brilliantly placed Stasis Wards allowed him to completely nullify Maru's offensive. In fact, Trap was able to trap and destroy so many Terran infantry units that he found himself having enough of an army advantage that he could immediately go on the counter-offensive.
It was a testament to Maru's defensive ability that Trap couldn't finish him off with his huge force of Chargelot-Archon backed by Storm, but it was only delaying the inevitable. Trap assembled another deadly force—this time aided by Colossus—and dealt Maru the finishing blow.
Game 2 - Oxide: Maru opened with a Reactor-Barracks expansion once more, but this time went for an entirely different follow-up by going for two more Barracks behind it. On the other side of the map, Trap opened with a fast Dark Templar drop. Trap ended up being the clear winner in this exchange, dealing heavy SCV and unit damage with his DT drop while completely nullifying Maru's frontal attack with a Dark Templar on defense.
Maru decided there was no point in playing out a macro game, and instead started gathering troops off two bases to go for a desperation all-in attack. Unfortunately, this ended up being a rather hopeless endeavor for Maru. Despite being the player who was ostensibly sacrificing economy for army production, he still found his army supply easily matched by Trap—who was also teching and expanding at the same time. Trap ended up having little trouble holding off Maru's two desperation attacks to collect another GG.
Game 3 - Romanticide Trap was the one to make a greedy play this time around, opening with a blind Nexus-first expansion. Meanwhile, Maru changed up his opener and went for fast tech, looking for a combination Hellions + Armory/Mines drop. Trap went for defensive Blink-Stalkers behind his fast expansion, and deduced that some kind of fast-tech attack was coming with his Adept scouting.
Maru committed hard to his Hellion-Mine harass, and ended up getting 10 Probe kills for his efforts. However, given Trap's greedy start and Maru's decision to delay his expansion for faster tech, this still ended up being an extremely favorable exchange for Trap. Trap was able to comfortably take his third base after holding off Maru's harassment, and was actually inflicted far more damaging harassment of his own (relatively) with his Blink-Stalkers on Maru's side of the map.
Trap played out his lead in an almost leisurely manner, even looking indecisive in terms of what tech he wanted to use to finish Maru off. Ultimately, he decided on a big Gateway army backed by Templars, which easily smashed through Maru's defenses to force a third straight GG.
Game 4 - Blackburn: Maru opted for a proxy-Barracks at the designated backdoor Reaper site on Blackburn, while also going up to two Refineries for tech-based play. Trap also went for a 1-base build of his own, proxying a Stargate for a Void Ray followed by fast Tempests. The quick Adept from Trap's one-base build allowed him to fend off Maru's Reaper easily, leaving Maru with not much else to do but focus on stopping the incoming Tempests.
A long range marksmanship contest between Tempests and Viking-Cyclone ensued, with the Tempests slowly winning on account of their superior range and the formation of Shield Batteries that Trap had planted in Maru's natural. Maru's defensive line was slowly shoved deeper and deeper into his own base, as the Tempest count increased to allow them to one-shot Cyclones and Vikings in a single volley. In the midst of all this, Maru attempted a sneaky Barracks float into Trap's main to make Marines, but a single Shield Battery in Trap's mineral line stopped this cheeky harassment.
Trap consolidated his lead by adding a Nexus at Maru's natural, giving him another line of resources and access to Battery Overcharge. However, Trap seemed to be tentative about pushing past Maru's ramp and deeper into the Terran main, and Maru took advantage of a lull in the action to send his Vikings across the map for a backdoor attack into Trap's main. Thanks to the Nexus in Maru's natural, Trap was able to evacuate his Probes and resume mining.
But while Trap didn't suffer much economic disruption, he did seem to be afflicted by a huge lapse in concentration due to Maru's unexpected move. Trap moved his Tempests forward when he noticed the Vikings landing in his main, but he didn't seem to quite notice when the Vikings jumped up and flew back on defense. Trap's Tempests were caught out of position by Maru's returning Vikings, having ventured too far away from the protective Shield Batteries. Rather than try to force the Tempests back into range of the Batteries, Trap actually kited them further away in the opposite direction. Maru used his Cyclones and Vikings to mop up the Tempests, forcing Trap to concede his first loss of the series.
Game 5 - 2000 Atmospheres: Maru pulled out the good ol' Engineering Bay block, forcing Trap to pull several Probes to remove the obstruction in his natural. Back at home, Maru went for a Barracks-Factory-CC start, while Trap went for a Dark Templar drop after taking his natural expansion. Maru's first choice of tech was a garden variety Widow Mine Drop, which Trap handled without any trouble. However, he tunnel-visioned too hard on stopping the Mines and allowed two Hellions to casually drive past his wall. Trap had just evacuated a giant stack of Probes from his main to his natural, which allowed the two Hellions to get massive shots off that killed fifteen Probes. Having scouted the Dark Shrine with his drop, Maru was able to fend the eventual DT drop off easily with scans followed by a Raven.
Trap tried to play out a normal macro game from his disadvantaged position, but it was a doomed endeavor. Maru's economic lead let him hit an unstoppable two-base timing attack, with his 70 supply army utterly smashing Trap's 29 supply defense force to end the game.
Game 6 - Nautilus: Maru spawned on the bottom-right corner of the map, while Trap drew the bottom-left starting position. Without any scouting info, Maru went for a proxy-Barracks in the center-left region of the map, which ended up being terribly unlucky as it was directly in the path of Trap's clockwise Probe-scout. Maru was forced to cancel his Barracks and play a delayed Barracks-Factory-CC build back at home.
Meanwhile, Trap delayed his expansion for tech once more, building a hidden Dark Shrine to send in Dark Templar's by foot. Maru seemed to suspect some form of cheese from Trap, and went for a fast defensive Cyclone while also conserving his Orbital Command energy for scans. The extra scan energy ended up being a game changer for Maru. Trap pulled back his first DT's from Maru's natural upon being scanned the first time, but sent them straight back in once the scan timer ran out. Trap didn't seem to anticipate Maru would have energy for a second scan, and he ended up losing all three of his Dark Templars. Dark Templars #4 and #5 were able to kill five SCV's, but it was still an extremely poor exchange for Trap given the state of his own economy.
Similar to the previous game on 2000 Atmospheres, Trap decided to try and play out a macro game and hope for the best. And, once again, Maru hit a timing where he had nearly double the army supply of Trap, giving him the win to tie the series at 3-3.
Game 7 - Lightshade: Maru sent out two early SCVs to go for a double proxy-Barracks at Trap's third base—almost identical to his quarterfinal match versus Hurricane on the same map. However, unlike Hurricane, Trap didn't commit to a full, deep scout of his third, and his anti-proxy Probe ended up missing the two Barracks by a few inches (this seemed rather odd considering that not only would Trap have seen Maru's games against Hurricane, but he had also been his practice opponent for that exact match).
In any case, Trap ended up going for a standard fast expansion, with his Pylon, Gateway, and Cybernetics Core all built down at his natural to form a wall. An exasperated smile crossed Trap's face when he saw Marines and SCV's show up in his natural, with a Bunker going down directly between the Cybernetics Core and Gateway to turn his own wall against him. It was all too easy for Maru to just focus fire down the Pylon powering the Gateway, and also any new Pylons Trap tried to desperately warp in. With the situation being utterly hopeless, Trap conceded the game just after the three minute mark.
In his post-match interview, Maru said "[the proxy-Barracks all-in] wasn't the build I had originally prepared... ...just felt like doing it, so I did."
Congrats to Maru for overcoming seemingly unthinkable odds from a 0-3 deficit, to edge Trap in seven games. Hate to see Trap go out like that.
Was there ever a time when Maru and Rogue faced each other in the GSL finals? A lot is at stake -- of course prize money, but also prestige, bragging rights and more. It'll be quite a treat to see either of these top 10 players in SC2 history hoist the GSL season 1 2021 trophy.
On May 02 2021 12:10 tommey.liang wrote: Congrats to Maru for overcoming seemingly unthinkable odds from a 0-3 deficit, to edge Trap in seven games. Hate to see Trap go out like that.
Was there ever a time when Maru and Rogue faced each other in the GSL finals? A lot is at stake -- of course prize money, but also prestige, bragging rights and more. It'll be quite a treat to see either of these top 10 players in SC2 history hoist the GSL season 1 2021 trophy.
They never met in the final of any tournament. Previously, they met in semifinals where Rogue ended up taking the series a couple of times except during IEM Katowice 2021.
On May 02 2021 11:17 Vindicare605 wrote: G5L vs Undefeated in Offline Bo7s.
Is anyone else getting Flash vs Jaedong vibes off of this final? This is about as good as it gets for Starcraft 2. I hope it lives up to the hype.
If it was Innovation vs Serral it would be more akin to Flash v Jaedong I think. Maru and Rogue are both very good but they havent been at the same peaks, maybe Maru was close in 2018.
On May 02 2021 11:17 Vindicare605 wrote: G5L vs Undefeated in Offline Bo7s.
Is anyone else getting Flash vs Jaedong vibes off of this final? This is about as good as it gets for Starcraft 2. I hope it lives up to the hype.
If it was Innovation vs Serral it would be more akin to Flash v Jaedong I think. Maru and Rogue are both very good but they havent been at the same peaks, maybe Maru was close in 2018.
What are you talking about? Maru has long passed the Innovation career. And Rogue is the player who has made the most money in Starcraft 2 and is the player who has the most world championships.
On May 02 2021 11:17 Vindicare605 wrote: G5L vs Undefeated in Offline Bo7s.
Is anyone else getting Flash vs Jaedong vibes off of this final? This is about as good as it gets for Starcraft 2. I hope it lives up to the hype.
If it was Innovation vs Serral it would be more akin to Flash v Jaedong I think. Maru and Rogue are both very good but they havent been at the same peaks, maybe Maru was close in 2018.
What are you talking about? Maru has long passed the Innovation career. And Rogue is the player who has made the most money in Starcraft 2 and is the player who has the most world championships.
He is third. If he win the GSL he will be number one i think:
This series was insane. Many lol's all round--both the games and the casting. I'm feeling super happy for Maru, but gosh feeling quite sorry for Trap too. Hope Maru will take the G5L. Nothing against Rogue--I met the lad in Seoul and he's a very nice and humble bloke.
Maru tied soO for the most GSL final, if he win he's gonna have pretty much all the record, at least to my knowledge.
-Most GSL code S/ open round of 32 (26) -Most GSL round of 4 (11) -Most GSL round of 8 (15) -Most GSL final (6) -Most GSL win (5)
Also, while we are on #Maru-GSL facts; with his run this season, Maru has now been in over half of the GSL round of 4 since HOTS (12 semi for 23 season). Edit: Not yet, he's gonna need to more straight round of 4.
Edit: I'm a dumbass I counted the OSL season for Maru, he keep the potential win (5), round of 4 (11), round of 8 (15) and round of 32 (26) but he's tied with soO in final and 1 behind INno in round of 16.
On May 02 2021 18:02 StasisField wrote: I've never wanted both players to lose this badly
Why so much hate for the only two GOAT contenders still playing?
INno is still playing... he is quite unlucky to be far older than Maru / having peaked when there was the most competition.
During the Inno peak Maru smashed him in one of the fastest BO7 ever played. Just sayin
Well Maru is the GOAT, but even him had his fair share of dubious losses (the worst one being the 2018 BlizzCon vs sOs though). Still think a 2-3 years younger INno would keep winning stuff like GSL in 2021
On May 02 2021 18:02 StasisField wrote: I've never wanted both players to lose this badly
Why so much hate for the only two GOAT contenders still playing?
INno is still playing... he is quite unlucky to be far older than Maru / having peaked when there was the most competition.
If you go back season by season to the start of HotS when they both kicked off, Maru did better than INno in like 80% of them. People point to INno as some kind of king of consistency, but he's much less consistent than Maru in terms of always being at the top. It's just that in the few seasons where he was better, he usually won the trophy.
On May 02 2021 18:02 StasisField wrote: I've never wanted both players to lose this badly
Why so much hate for the only two GOAT contenders still playing?
INno is still playing... he is quite unlucky to be far older than Maru / having peaked when there was the most competition.
If you go back season by season to the start of HotS when they both kicked off, Maru did better than INno in like 80% of them. People point to INno as some kind of king of consistency, but he's much less consistent than Maru in terms of always being at the top. It's just that in the few seasons where he was better, he usually won the trophy.
Trophies count. When people want to What I mean - look at Rogue. He has the best trophy case of the active SC2 players. And yet many overlook him for players who won far less. Multiple world champion, multiple code S champion. And some other fancy titles. (ST, IEM Shanghai)
On May 02 2021 18:02 StasisField wrote: I've never wanted both players to lose this badly
Why so much hate for the only two GOAT contenders still playing?
INno is still playing... he is quite unlucky to be far older than Maru / having peaked when there was the most competition.
If you go back season by season to the start of HotS when they both kicked off, Maru did better than INno in like 80% of them. People point to INno as some kind of king of consistency, but he's much less consistent than Maru in terms of always being at the top. It's just that in the few seasons where he was better, he usually won the trophy.
Trophies count. When people want to What I mean - look at Rogue. He has the best trophy case of the active SC2 players. And yet many overlook him for players who won far less. Multiple world champion, multiple code S champion. And some other fancy titles. (ST, IEM Shanghai)
Sure, of course trophies count. I'm just trying to get the point across that it's not like Maru was invisible in all those 'INno peak competition' years. He was actually better like 80% of the time compared to INno, just that when INno was better he managed to win more. At least until 2018.
As for Rogue. Well, he didn't dominate in multiple expansions or when his race was anything close to being underpowered is probably the argument I'll have to settle for
On May 02 2021 18:02 StasisField wrote: I've never wanted both players to lose this badly
Why so much hate for the only two GOAT contenders still playing?
INno is still playing... he is quite unlucky to be far older than Maru / having peaked when there was the most competition.
If you go back season by season to the start of HotS when they both kicked off, Maru did better than INno in like 80% of them. People point to INno as some kind of king of consistency, but he's much less consistent than Maru in terms of always being at the top. It's just that in the few seasons where he was better, he usually won the trophy.
2015 S1 Inno Ro8, Maru Ro16 2016 S1 both out in Code A 2017 S1 both Ro8 2017 S3 Inno won Code S, Maru Ro32 2020 S1 Inno Ro4, Maru Ro8 2020 S2 Inno Ro8, Maru Ro16
And Inno had better results in the 2 full WoL seasons they both played in. So Maru placed higher in 14 seasons, Inno placed higher in 10 and they finished with the same placement two times. If you wanna arbitrarily say it's better to lose to the eventual champion than anyone else, then let's say 15-11. Not exactly 80% until you count Ro32 as better than 1st place.
On May 02 2021 18:02 StasisField wrote: I've never wanted both players to lose this badly
Why so much hate for the only two GOAT contenders still playing?
INno is still playing... he is quite unlucky to be far older than Maru / having peaked when there was the most competition.
If you go back season by season to the start of HotS when they both kicked off, Maru did better than INno in like 80% of them. People point to INno as some kind of king of consistency, but he's much less consistent than Maru in terms of always being at the top. It's just that in the few seasons where he was better, he usually won the trophy.
Trophies count. When people want to What I mean - look at Rogue. He has the best trophy case of the active SC2 players. And yet many overlook him for players who won far less. Multiple world champion, multiple code S champion. And some other fancy titles. (ST, IEM Shanghai)
Sure, of course trophies count. I'm just trying to get the point across that it's not like Maru was invisible in all those 'INno peak competition' years. He was actually better like 80% of the time compared to INno, just that when INno was better he managed to win more. At least until 2018.
As for Rogue. Well, he didn't dominate in multiple expansions or when his race was anything close to being underpowered is probably the argument I'll have to settle for
I'm not gonna pursue the Rogue example any more, as you're missing the point but that doesn't matter.
Truth is, people remember mostly the titles, that's why a solid player never gets the recognition they're supposed to get. e.g. Classic, soO Both were great players, among the top, overshadowed by victors. In the case of Classic at one point overshadowed by a callendar (he won Code S and a week(?) later nobody cared as the global WCS finals took him from the spotlight :D )
Lol, it doesn't matter which tournament is going on as long as Maru is involved someone will always bring up the GOAT discussion. And I thought some of Serrals fans were intrusive...
On May 02 2021 18:02 StasisField wrote: I've never wanted both players to lose this badly
Why so much hate for the only two GOAT contenders still playing?
INno is still playing... he is quite unlucky to be far older than Maru / having peaked when there was the most competition.
If you go back season by season to the start of HotS when they both kicked off, Maru did better than INno in like 80% of them. People point to INno as some kind of king of consistency, but he's much less consistent than Maru in terms of always being at the top. It's just that in the few seasons where he was better, he usually won the trophy.
Trophies count. When people want to What I mean - look at Rogue. He has the best trophy case of the active SC2 players. And yet many overlook him for players who won far less. Multiple world champion, multiple code S champion. And some other fancy titles. (ST, IEM Shanghai)
Sure, of course trophies count. I'm just trying to get the point across that it's not like Maru was invisible in all those 'INno peak competition' years. He was actually better like 80% of the time compared to INno, just that when INno was better he managed to win more. At least until 2018.
As for Rogue. Well, he didn't dominate in multiple expansions or when his race was anything close to being underpowered is probably the argument I'll have to settle for
I'm not gonna pursue the Rogue example any more, as you're missing the point but that doesn't matter.
Truth is, people remember mostly the titles, that's why a solid player never gets the recognition they're supposed to get. e.g. Classic, soO Both were great players, among the top, overshadowed by victors. In the case of Classic at one point overshadowed by a callendar (he won Code S and a week(?) later nobody cared as the global WCS finals took him from the spotlight :D )
It's true that most people remember titles, except for guys like Rogue who are unlikeable for other reasons. But if you're anything beyond a casual fan and want to make genuine comparisons between the best players, you should be able to look past that. Which is why players like soO and Maru (pre-2018) would be much higher on any kind of GOAT list if it was being done by someone more invested in the scene.
On May 02 2021 18:02 StasisField wrote: I've never wanted both players to lose this badly
Why so much hate for the only two GOAT contenders still playing?
INno is still playing... he is quite unlucky to be far older than Maru / having peaked when there was the most competition.
If you go back season by season to the start of HotS when they both kicked off, Maru did better than INno in like 80% of them. People point to INno as some kind of king of consistency, but he's much less consistent than Maru in terms of always being at the top. It's just that in the few seasons where he was better, he usually won the trophy.
2015 S1 Inno Ro8, Maru Ro16 2016 S1 both out in Code A 2017 S1 both Ro8 2017 S3 Inno won Code S, Maru Ro32 2020 S1 Inno Ro4, Maru Ro8 2020 S2 Inno Ro8, Maru Ro16
And Inno had better results in the 2 full WoL seasons they both played in. So Maru placed higher in 14 seasons, Inno placed higher in 10 and they finished with the same placement two times. If you wanna arbitrarily say it's better to lose to the eventual champion than anyone else, then let's say 15-11. Not exactly 80% until you count Ro32 as better than 1st place.
I didn't say this was exclusively Code S.
2015 S1 - Maru was a champion (SSL) 2016 was terrible for both of them but I gave it to Maru because he was universally considered the better player, highlighted by proleague results. And as you said, he lost to the eventual champion due to terrible seeding choices by GSL. 2017 S1 - INno was a champion (SSL) 2020 S1 - Maru was a champion (Super Tournament)
2017 S3 and 2020 S2 were mistakes yeah, thanks for pointing out.
Still, even if you include the two seasons at the end of WoL, that's 17-9 in favour of Maru over their careers. Which is quite heavy in terms of the fact that everyone claims INno was more consistent or had more longevity.
On May 03 2021 22:51 Anc13nt wrote: whoever wins this is (and will be) the greatest LotV player
Very possibly yeah, but I'm feeling like Rogue is gonna stomp Maru. o_o
Even though Rogue has an invincibility streak, I'm less worried than when Maru had to face TY in GSL Finals 2018 (and obviously 2020 as well). Maru is usually very good in GSL finals, and Rogue is very good at comebacks in ZvT with his opponent on match point. Should be particularly interesting now that they aren't teammates anymore
On May 02 2021 18:02 StasisField wrote: I've never wanted both players to lose this badly
Why so much hate for the only two GOAT contenders still playing?
INno is still playing... he is quite unlucky to be far older than Maru / having peaked when there was the most competition.
I think with his recent results (2x GSL finals, king of battles and Super Tournament win) Maru has finally surpassed Inno by now. Rogue though isn't a contender in my eyes because he was only succesful during one expansion, during a quite weak competitive era and mostly at times when his race was strong.
On May 04 2021 01:03 Poopi wrote: Should be particularly interesting now that they aren't teammates anymore
They've been openly talking about how they practice with each other, and calling each other the best of their respective races. It seems like Rogue and Maru at least have remained really close friends, even after the fall of Jinair. That'll make it all the more interesting though in terms of mind games.
G5L is a cursed trophy and cannot be obtained until both players in the finals have 4 titles. Thus Rogue will win. Also I have the feeling Arotosis will go on a Maru rant and will curse him out of existence.
I really wanted to see Rogue vs Trap because I actually love watching PvZ (although recently there's a lot of games that end in 1 push, but it'd still be cool to watch Rogue IQ roll Trap) and I'm a fan of Trap. But thinking about it, maybe Rogue would have stomped Trap and it could have been boring. I'm a fan of Rogue but beating someone like Maru would give his championship a lot more value in the eyes of many.
And Maru beating Rogue who never lost a Bo7 (in GSL?) would be epic too.
To me, this is a battle between the GOAT, and the 3rd-5th greatest SC2 player. (Personally, Rogue is the 3rd-4th greatest on my list). If Maru wins this, good luck to anyone trying to beat his record. If Rogue wins this, it would cement him as Top 3 GOAT with an argument of being rated even 2nd over Inno.
It would be so hype for 2 of the very very greatest SC2 players to fight in this finals.
Whether it's a stomp or not, please let the games be legendary! Thankfully it's a TvZ, and even though I feel it can be sometimes stale, it should be great watching Maru and Rogue play it, with THESE stakes.
On May 03 2021 22:51 Anc13nt wrote: whoever wins this is (and will be) the greatest LotV player
Very possibly yeah, but I'm feeling like Rogue is gonna stomp Maru. o_o
Even though Rogue has an invincibility streak, I'm less worried than when Maru had to face TY in GSL Finals 2018 (and obviously 2020 as well). Maru is usually very good in GSL finals, and Rogue is very good at comebacks in ZvT with his opponent on match point. Should be particularly interesting now that they aren't teammates anymore
On the topic of them not being teammates, it is kind of funny how top 4 half a year after jinair disbanded is still 3 ex JA players out of 4 spots. So much for the arguement that they were only good due to the teamhouse
On May 05 2021 05:07 Shuffleblade wrote: On the topic of them not being teammates, it is kind of funny how top 4 half a year after jinair disbanded is still 3 ex JA players out of 4 spots. So much for the arguement that they were only good due to the teamhouse
I kind of wish Jinair had dialed back its involvement instead of disbanding altogether. No team house, but still have the team intact. I'm happy to see that the old Jinair members are still good friends, but I really miss that team name.
On May 05 2021 03:09 JimmyJRaynor wrote: This season of GSL has been amazing. I love the state of the game. Bravo Blizzard.
There is a lot of variety in games for sure. Intense strategies and such.
Back in WoL/HotS, we got a lot of long macro games, mixed with some all-ins. Although there were many intense macro games, often you would pick the same 2-3 safe macro builds and nothing really happens until they get to 3 bases and are near max or getting late game tech already.
In LotV, there is so many more combinations of things you can do you in build (like tech + exp, double tech 1 base, fast 3 base, 1 base all-in, etc.), it makes the early game much more varied. (Even though the "opening" of your build may be more limited now, for example usually you take gas quick because of the worker start increase, and may not be as much variety in terms of when you get your first and second gas etc., the overall variety of builds has increased.)
There are games where both players may decide to go fast 3 base, and it's a macro game, but with a shorter buildup to the 3 bases thanks to the LotV worker start. There are games where its fast 3 base vs 1 base harass or all in. There are lots of games with a mix of proxy tech and expand, and lots of variety in how to manage a situation like that to try to win.
The game feels much more dynamic, like you can't just pick the same 1 Rax FE or CC first builds as you could in WoL and HotS, where you only needed to hope they didn't go with 1 or 2 possible cheese/all-in counters. You can't be safe with your build, you have to mix it up, and each build has counters. It can be more stressful, but since pro SC2 is played in series, I think this makes it really great to watch.
However the 1 complaint I have, is that recently it seems that games often end in 1 push. And there seem to be a lack of macro games outside of TvT and TvZ (and recently PvP, which has turned into an awesome MU, anyone remember Patience vs Parting or Zest vs Creator PvPs with all the Stalker Disruptor micro and such??).
Is it just me? I would like a litttle more games to be macro and actually have players take a large part of the map, constantly fighting for bases and harassing all over. I really want that "spread out" feeling where players are constantly having to put out fires, and trying to keep getting ahead and take more bases, rather than just getting a small advantage early on and then trying to end the game in 1 push. LotV has made great changes to allow for more of that spread out feeling which made BW fun, but at the same time, it feels like the recent meta usually leads to games ending before it can actually get that far.
I also am a little worried about the maps. I may make a new thread about it to elaborate better. But often the maps have bases grouped together closely, and especially because we don't really have 3 or 4 player maps anymore, maps are smaller. This leads to more games where each player just takes 1 side of the map, and if you lose a big fight you tend to lose the game. Back then on maps like Tal'darim, even though it was a little imba and we found out it was slightly too big, we had many great macro games because you could take bases all over, there were many more attack routes and much more army positioning on the map trying to intercept armies and workers, etc. Even if you lost a cluster of bases you could still be in the game and make come backs.
I think Golden Wall was a great 2p map to bring some elements that have phased out. It was a large map with multiple expansion paths, and it had far away bases. Remember TY vs Stats, where TY went mech? If Stats had played a little better, the game could have turned into a much longer one where it was Stats holding the top bases vs TY controlling the bottom. But even before the game ended, there were lots of interesting army movement because of all the different bases and paths. It wasn't just, you push their side once and end the game.
The other great thing about Golden Wall is not only does it have many far away bases, but some of the far away bases have small chokes. Looking at BW maps, it's very common for later expos to have ramps or very small chokes, which allow you more options of where to expand. You don't have to just take close bases, you can take a far base and put down some static def (which keeps army supply free), and put a couple lurkers at the ramp or such. It was viable to take farther bases because it also could be harder for your opponent to reach or go past the choke cost effectively. Golden Wall is one of the few maps that used small chokes for far bases, like the 2 center-upper bases with the ramps and rocks. I would really like more maps to have smaller chokes and more easily defendable far away bases to give more expo options to make for more positional play and spread players out more.
I don't understand why SC2 mapmakers keep making later expands have very open areas to attack them. Static defense is already weak enough, and moving armies through chokes is much easier in SC2 than BW even with new defensive units like the Lurker, Liberator, Disruptor. Why not have some far bases with small chokes? There are tons of ways to drop, warp in, etc. in SC2. The harder it is to take out bases, the more we can "slow down" the game and allow for more interactions and closer, more intense games. And if it was slower it would also lead to players trying to do multiple things at once with their armies and spread them out. Often times players have 1 main army and then 1 little harass force, if they want to push a base they just attack it. In BW, you had to slowly dismantle the defenses at a base with small specialized forces, so while waiting you would have your army do other things in other areas of the map.
The later expands also being very open allows for base trades to be as easy as they are in SC2. Expands are all open and difficult to defend as long as the opponent's army is not on their side of the map. If later expands were easier to defend, then even if players try to base trade, there is a chance the game will continue as they can't quite finish off all the bases just by A-clicking their army.
Sorry gave lots of thoughts, curious to hear if there are good reasons to these things I'm wondering. I would love to see a little more macro games where players are able to take a significant part of the map, and for maps to be larger and have more viable far away expos options, not just small 2p maps where you push the opponent's side once and there is very little comeback potential if they can't hold the push. I do love the variety of LotV games and I don't mind the short ones, but the long macro ones with players scrambling all over the map for resources would be amazing too.
On May 05 2021 03:09 JimmyJRaynor wrote: This season of GSL has been amazing. I love the state of the game. Bravo Blizzard.
I don't understand why SC2 mapmakers keep making later expands have very open areas to attack them. Static defense is already weak enough, and moving armies through chokes is much easier in SC2 than BW even with new defensive units like the Lurker, Liberator, Disruptor. Why not have some far bases with small chokes? There are tons of ways to drop, warp in, etc. in SC2. The harder it is to take out bases, the more we can "slow down" the game and allow for more interactions and closer, more intense games. And if it was slower it would also lead to players trying to do multiple things at once with their armies and spread them out. Often times players have 1 main army and then 1 little harass force, if they want to push a base they just attack it. In BW, you had to slowly dismantle the defenses at a base with small specialized forces, so while waiting you would have your army do other things in other areas of the map.
I totally agree with you and I think it would make SC2 better, but I wonder if the meta would shift towards the kind of staleness we see in 3v3s and 4v4s; if it's easy to defend, it's more and more effective to turtle and tech skip straight to tier 3 units. I don't think this is a problem with RTS, more so just SC2's particular strangeness with t3 units.
On May 05 2021 03:09 JimmyJRaynor wrote: This season of GSL has been amazing. I love the state of the game. Bravo Blizzard.
I don't understand why SC2 mapmakers keep making later expands have very open areas to attack them. Static defense is already weak enough, and moving armies through chokes is much easier in SC2 than BW even with new defensive units like the Lurker, Liberator, Disruptor. Why not have some far bases with small chokes? There are tons of ways to drop, warp in, etc. in SC2. The harder it is to take out bases, the more we can "slow down" the game and allow for more interactions and closer, more intense games. And if it was slower it would also lead to players trying to do multiple things at once with their armies and spread them out. Often times players have 1 main army and then 1 little harass force, if they want to push a base they just attack it. In BW, you had to slowly dismantle the defenses at a base with small specialized forces, so while waiting you would have your army do other things in other areas of the map.
I totally agree with you and I think it would make SC2 better, but I wonder if the meta would shift towards the kind of staleness we see in 3v3s and 4v4s; if it's easy to defend, it's more and more effective to turtle and tech skip straight to tier 3 units. I don't think this is a problem with RTS, more so just SC2's particular strangeness with t3 units.
That's true, I should clarify as I mispoke a bit in the part you quoted. I don't think all bases should be easier to take, but I think some of the later, far away expos, should be designed with more variety. Specifically, make some of them have small chokes, so it's possible to expo there and defend even if it's far away and hard to move your army there to protect it. So you have an option to take a close base with a wide choke which is easy to move your army to defend it, or take far away ones that are harder to reinforce but also less cost effective (and more time consuming) for your opponent to attack into if you put a little static defense and a couple units. This overall spreads the players out and actually use more of the map, which allows for more variety in army movement, more possible positions to control and fight over, and also slows the game down as armies have to move further distances and are spread around the map more.
(In the 3p and 4p maps of old, taking a corner main base was a thing, since it was far away and also had a small choke. Unfortunately we don't have these maps anymore so we lost this concept outside of maps like Golden Wall.)
This might not be a great example, but it is a game I recently rewatched on Tal'Darim. You can skip around to get an idea of the army movement and how back and forth it is, and players don't try to just instantly end the game with 1 push. Even though the army comps were so much more boring back then, maps and macro games like this kept it exciting.
EPT
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