We’ve made the decision to play Intel Extreme Masters Katowice: StarCraft II online with players remaining in their homes for cross-region play. After consulting with players and authorities regarding requirements for travel and comfort levels this is our best way forward to continue the competition.
To account for online play we’ve made several adjustments to the tournament. Players will now compete for a prize pool of $250,000, with the remaining prize that was set for the event to be spread across qualifier, regional, and season final events in the next two seasons of ESL Pro Tour SC2 ending at IEM Katowice 2023. This prize will remain in the regular ecosystem and be attainable to those participating in the coming months and years.
To adapt to the changing landscape the schedule will be adjusted to play on February 20-28. These three additional days are added to account for schedules around the world to allow players to compete at more comfortable times in their local time.
Following the event we will still proceed with resetting yearly EPT points in order to begin the ESL Pro Tour SC2 2021-22 season fresh, using the yearly total for invitations and seeding only for the first event, following our planned off-season. During this period we will continue with our regularly weekly ESL Open Cups however no EPT points will be awarded for them.
For reference, the Katowice prize pool was originally planned to be $500,000 with a $170,000 first place prize. It's now a $250,000 total prize tournament with a flatter distribution while the other $250,000 get spread throughout the next two years of ESL Pro Tour.
They did same thing for CS GO with lower prize pools but more small or regional events (meaning more money for more teams). They will use the money for SC2 that's good enough
Shame Serral won't be millionairy (speaking of earnings) after Kato with this smaller prize pool
Really sad! But this is for the best in the midst of a pandemic, in terms of healthy and safety. I will still be tuning in of course, and this does not take away the prestige/grandeur of Katowice 2021.
On January 22 2021 00:50 tommey.liang wrote: this does not take away the prestige/grandeur of Katowice 2021.
I mean, it 100% does. I'm not sure how going online and halving the prize pool could fail to lessen its prestige/grandeur. But likely the right decision regardless, for reasons of player safety and practicality.
On January 22 2021 01:22 Brutaxilos wrote: Shouldn't migrating to online save money due to lesser logistics? Or is it due to ESL losing money from no live paying spectators?
Regardless, I'll accept whatever decision is the most financially responsible in the long term planning.
I think it‘s also about having such a huge tournament with so much money on the line not being played with constant ping advantage/disadvantage problems.
Well given how the pandemic is going right now this was kinda expected, and it's probably for the best. A bit sad we won't have offline battles between the top players but it's alright.
$65.000 is still more than most people make in a whole year, for many even more than in two years - not even speaking about so-called "third world countries". So, still a good prize to win, imo.
It's def not a cost thing. Online tourneys can have too many weird things to put all the prize money in one tournament. I know a lot of other online games are doing more tourneys for less money each to try to make sure the best players still win the most. This is unfortunately the only good choice for now as logistics and trying to fly/quarantine people would have been a nightmare/useless if more stuff gets shut down. I'm curious if they would have considered delaying it for a month if things were rapidly improving and they thought they'd be able to do it live but as of now I don't see global live stuff till at least may/june and they can't delay it for 3-4 months.
I guess it's fitting that we have a cross server final after one year of cross server events and the prize distribution is much better than the original one.
On January 22 2021 02:23 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote: It's def not a cost thing. Online tourneys can have too many weird things to put all the prize money in one tournament. I know a lot of other online games are doing more tourneys for less money each to try to make sure the best players still win the most. This is unfortunately the only good choice for now as logistics and trying to fly/quarantine people would have been a nightmare/useless if more stuff gets shut down. I'm curious if they would have considered delaying it for a month if things were rapidly improving and they thought they'd be able to do it live but as of now I don't see global live stuff till at least may/june and they can't delay it for 3-4 months.
As far as I know Americans would even have been prohibited from entering Europe. At least that‘s what I caught from the current Chess tournaments. They do take place, but without American participants.
And yes, I think it‘s the right decision. It‘s unfortunate, but an online tournament with 65k for the winner is more than enough. And the money will not be los. So it‘s fine.
On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote: So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we?
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
If they want this online, they should have kept the original prize pool but divided up into regional finals. I know people want a world champion* but cross-region play makes the title less meaningful anyway.
On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote: So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we?
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name
On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote: So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we?
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
True, but only to some extend.
Having a championship with at least three vastly different time zones and connection time makes it difficult for player to be in the best condition and show the most interesting matches. So it's great that they get to keep doing their job and earn money for it (prizepool-wise), but this does not make much difference with another whichever tournament one can tune in at a random time on this sidebar >>> Players just have more pressure about any random network or computer problem, since they might miss not 200 buck, but a hundred times more.
Damn this really sucks. Hopefully Koreans dominate here to the extent they usually do at Katowice so that ping is less of an issue in the playoffs at least.
It's better than having an offline tournament without half of players cause they cannot flight to come to Poland. Online events doesn't prevent Koreans winning (TSL, Asus Rog or Last Chance)
On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote: So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we?
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name
Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately.
Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha
Really unfortunate but I really respect the decision. Having a huge tournament with tons of people coming from all over the world would have been a big mistake.
On January 22 2021 09:30 RKC wrote: Postponement wasn't possible? I know the calendar may have been set, especially for GSL. But I'm sure a 2-week window can be found in summer/fall?
my guess is still a ton of uncertainty. and it would mess up the rest of the their calendar. they want to do a finals and have some semblance of a off-season. if they delay to to the summer then what do they do til then? Have a new season and then have the previous years finals in the middle of the season? I'm sure theirs also a lot of other deals and things locked in so you just can't rearrange a years worth of events and planning. The best thing to do is probably just get it over with then hit the offseason and hopefully when events show up again things are better. With the general amount of impossibility to accurately know where things are going to be and having exact dates you can end up delaying it to where it has no meaning. It also might hurt viewership having it at a weird date.
also for a bunch of players I'm sure it factors into their expense planning and some of them might struggle if their pay is getting delayed 2-3 months.
On January 22 2021 09:30 RKC wrote: Postponement wasn't possible? I know the calendar may have been set, especially for GSL. But I'm sure a 2-week window can be found in summer/fall?
my guess is still a ton of uncertainty. and it would mess up the rest of the their calendar. they want to do a finals and have some semblance of a off-season. if they delay to to the summer then what do they do til then? Have a new season and then have the previous years finals in the middle of the season? I'm sure theirs also a lot of other deals and things locked in so you just can't rearrange a years worth of events and planning. The best thing to do is probably just get it over with then hit the offseason and hopefully when events show up again things are better. With the general amount of impossibility to accurately know where things are going to be and having exact dates you can end up delaying it to where it has no meaning. It also might hurt viewership having it at a weird date.
also for a bunch of players I'm sure it factors into their expense planning and some of them might struggle if their pay is getting delayed 2-3 months.
You're talking best case scenario too. The reality is a postponement until ideal conditions would be a huge shot in the dark. We still don't even have good reason to think things will be possible in 9-12 months, let alone a few. The scene needs major tournaments and the players need some sort of season structure to work towards.
This is the new norm for now, and I think it's better if we don't get our hopes up too much for that to change any time soon. I'd prefer to focus our efforts into improving the equality of the online conditions as much as possible, with better scheduling and the like.
On January 22 2021 09:30 RKC wrote: Postponement wasn't possible? I know the calendar may have been set, especially for GSL. But I'm sure a 2-week window can be found in summer/fall?
my guess is still a ton of uncertainty. and it would mess up the rest of the their calendar. they want to do a finals and have some semblance of a off-season. if they delay to to the summer then what do they do til then? Have a new season and then have the previous years finals in the middle of the season? I'm sure theirs also a lot of other deals and things locked in so you just can't rearrange a years worth of events and planning. The best thing to do is probably just get it over with then hit the offseason and hopefully when events show up again things are better. With the general amount of impossibility to accurately know where things are going to be and having exact dates you can end up delaying it to where it has no meaning. It also might hurt viewership having it at a weird date.
also for a bunch of players I'm sure it factors into their expense planning and some of them might struggle if their pay is getting delayed 2-3 months.
You're talking best case scenario too. The reality is a postponement until ideal conditions would be a huge shot in the dark. We still don't even have good reason to think things will be possible in 9-12 months, let alone a few. The scene needs major tournaments and the players need some sort of season structure to work towards.
This is the new norm for now, and I think it's better if we don't get our hopes up too much for that to change any time soon. I'd prefer to focus our efforts into improving the equality of the online conditions as much as possible, with better scheduling and the like.
Yes, I totally get this. My work involves a lot of annual events and competitions. Since summer of 2020, the major ones already decided to go online for events in early 2021, come what may. So the organisers had a lot of time to make adjustments.
Katowice was determined to go offline. That's fine. But since they have committed to this path, the proper response would be postponement, I feel. Rather than making a late transition to online, with little time to prepare.
This is not meant to be super critical of them. I suppose there's pressure to be ambitious and aim for offline, but things just turn to the worst unexpectedly (such as the variant). Just an observation, that's all.
I feel like this would have been the prefect opportunity to change the schedule completely and make the world championship at the end of the year (somewhat like it was with blizzcon). It always felt wrong to me to make like a 3 week christmas break and then do WC as the first thing in the year.
I would do like 4 seasons (grand slams) and then the big bang at the beginning of december or sth to close out the year
The year is 2047, Mars has been hit with an outbreak of Covid-19.2: electric boogaloo and the Martian representatives can't make it to Earth for IEM Katowice so the tour goes online. The admins, teary-eyed, look back at how easy figuring out preferred server rules used to be.
On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote: So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we?
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name
Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately.
Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha
I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there.
Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue.
I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk)
On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote: So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we?
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name
Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately.
Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha
I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there.
Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue.
I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk)
I don't think "time zone fatigue" is a thing. It was stated multiple times by multiple people that some players prefer playing at 2 am. And we don't have any jetlag excuses.
On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote: So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we?
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name
Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately.
Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha
I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there.
Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue.
I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk)
I don't think "time zone fatigue" is a thing. It was stated multiple times by multiple people that some players prefer playing at 2 am. And we don't have any jetlag excuses.
Ping on the other hand might suck big time
Dude, did you like watch how tired the players look like? I'm not gonna take the Scarlett post again, but we're talking about people who played at 8 AM! Or 4 AM. If it's so fine, then force European to play at shitty times for once, wouldn't it be fair?
On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote: So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we?
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name
Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately.
Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha
I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there.
Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue.
I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk)
I don't think "time zone fatigue" is a thing. It was stated multiple times by multiple people that some players prefer playing at 2 am. And we don't have any jetlag excuses.
Ping on the other hand might suck big time
Dude, did you like watch how tired the players look like? I'm not gonna take the Scarlett post again, but we're talking about people who played at 8 AM! Or 4 AM. If it's so fine, then force European to play at shitty times for once, wouldn't it be fair?
Can t remember if it was TSL or ASUS, but for one of the two matches where scheduled for Koreans to play in the morning (after sleeping, not after pulling an all-nighter) while Europeans played at midnight - 1am. Which obviously isn t ideal, but a prety good compromise, if you ask me.
On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote: So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we?
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name
Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately.
Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha
I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there.
Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue.
I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk)
Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly.
On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote: Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2.
I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term.
On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote: So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we?
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name
Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately.
Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha
I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there.
Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue.
I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk)
Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly.
On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote: Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2.
I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term.
Well it's not been full two years yet, but I still take BlizzCon 2019 where Dark won vs Reynor with an asterisk given the zerg dominant meta of the year. Similarly, I'm pretty sure there are lot of people here remembering ByuN's 2016 BlizzCon win with an asterisk because of reapers and/or tankivac.
As you said though, the asterisk will be different for different people depending on who wins / who had the perceived better conditions.
On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote: So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we?
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name
Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately.
Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha
I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there.
Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue.
I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk)
Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly.
On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote: Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2.
I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term.
Well it's not been full two years yet, but I still take BlizzCon 2019 where Dark won vs Reynor with an asterisk given the zerg dominant meta of the year. Similarly, I'm pretty sure there are lot of people here remembering ByuN's 2016 BlizzCon win with an asterisk because of reapers and/or tankivac.
As you said though, the asterisk will be different for different people depending on who wins / who had the perceived better conditions.
Fair enough but alas in a game like SC2 if we discounted every championship based on game balance at the time we would have precious few "legitimate" champions in the entire game's history. If we go down that road we will be splitting hairs over who gets an asterisk and a panel of SC2 fans (who play/root for different races) would probably put asterisks on like half of all the tournament winners haha. So yeah to each their own people will put asterisks where they please.
And I'm not saying that there won't be an asterisk here. Again I just think there's really nothing to be done about it at this point except try and schedule the matches as evenly as possible and hope for good games.
On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote: So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we?
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name
Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately.
Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha
I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there.
Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue.
I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk)
Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly.
On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote: Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2.
I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term.
Don't know, people still remember Sniper And people remember Moscow and LA olympics
On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote: So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we?
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name
Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately.
Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha
I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there.
Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue.
I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk)
Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly.
On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote: Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2.
I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term.
Don't know, people still remember Sniper And people remember Moscow and LA olympics
Yes but surely we can draw distinctions between asterisks in different situations?
Like we can categorize government boycotts of olympics, someone winning a GSL with an imbalanced strategy, and a global pandemic forcing a tournament to be played online separately as opposed to just saying "these are competitions in which *something* happened that may have effected the results so they have asterisk". There's levels to this asterisk thing yeh? I think we'll look back at this time and say yeah sure it was online. Everything was online for awhile there what with the whole virus thing
On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote: So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we?
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name
Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately.
Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha
I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there.
Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue.
I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk)
Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly.
On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote: Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2.
I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term.
Don't know, people still remember Sniper And people remember Moscow and LA olympics
Yes but surely we can draw distinctions between asterisks in different situations?
Like we can categorize government boycotts of olympics, someone winning a GSL with an imbalanced strategy, and a global pandemic forcing a tournament to be played online separately as opposed to just saying "these are competitions in which *something* happened that may have effected the results so they have asterisk". There's levels to this asterisk thing yeh? I think we'll look back at this time and say yeah sure it was online. Everything was online for awhile there what with the whole virus thing
Code S wasn't online Just don't get me wrong, I am not critizing the online part, I get it, I was actually expecting it and like 2 months ago already saying I don't expect the IEM to be offline. And the IEM will have the asterisk, if not officially it will have it in the minds of many
If it's so fine, then force European to play at shitty times for once, wouldn't it be fair?
We both know that will never happen unfortunately. We've been saying this in each of the Season Finals, but nothing's been done about it.
I get why they don't do it, but pretending it has minimal effect on the performance is just ... hmm, I don't know proper term in English nor Czech... damn it xD
On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote: So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we?
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name
Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately.
Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha
I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there.
Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue.
I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk)
Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly.
On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote: Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2.
I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term.
There will definitely be a big-ass asterisk on next month's Australian Open, that's for sure. Players in quarantine and deprived off training time - no level playing field. Some players didn't travel altogether due to testing positive (Murray) or fear. Quite shambolic. Just proceed with the tournament in some lesser form, but don't count it as a Grand Slam.
Blizzcon took the right approach. Some tournaments have a certain level of prestige. This is the way, or call it off. A blank in Wikipedia explaining its cancellation due to COVID is better than a name next to an asterisk or some long disclaimer.
On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote: So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we?
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name
Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately.
Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha
I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there.
Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue.
I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk)
Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly.
On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote: Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2.
I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term.
Don't know, people still remember Sniper And people remember Moscow and LA olympics
Yes but surely we can draw distinctions between asterisks in different situations?
Like we can categorize government boycotts of olympics, someone winning a GSL with an imbalanced strategy, and a global pandemic forcing a tournament to be played online separately as opposed to just saying "these are competitions in which *something* happened that may have effected the results so they have asterisk". There's levels to this asterisk thing yeh? I think we'll look back at this time and say yeah sure it was online. Everything was online for awhile there what with the whole virus thing
I think the history of t-sports tends to show that asterisks generally end up carrying very little weight in the long run, except by the hardcore fans of the 'aggrieved' party. Most fans just accept results with the understanding that 'perfect playing conditions' don't exist in reality. Unless there's actual, explicitly proven, cheating involved, results tend not to get dismissed by most fans. And even then, fans seem to take it in stride unless the governing body explicitly strips a title.
On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote: So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we?
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name
Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately.
Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha
I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there.
Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue.
I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk)
Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly.
On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote: Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2.
I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term.
Don't know, people still remember Sniper And people remember Moscow and LA olympics
Yes but surely we can draw distinctions between asterisks in different situations?
Like we can categorize government boycotts of olympics, someone winning a GSL with an imbalanced strategy, and a global pandemic forcing a tournament to be played online separately as opposed to just saying "these are competitions in which *something* happened that may have effected the results so they have asterisk". There's levels to this asterisk thing yeh? I think we'll look back at this time and say yeah sure it was online. Everything was online for awhile there what with the whole virus thing
I think the history of t-sports tends to show that asterisks generally end up carrying very little weight in the long run, except by the hardcore fans of the 'aggrieved' party. Most fans just accept results with the understanding that 'perfect playing conditions' don't exist in reality. Unless there's actual, explicitly proven, cheating involved, results tend not to get dismissed by most fans. And even then, fans seem to take it in stride unless the governing body explicitly strips a title.
Makes me wonder if some people are still mad StarTale lost to Prime because of the MKP - Squirtle rematch due to the cable incident :o
On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote: So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we?
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name
Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately.
Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha
I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there.
Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue.
I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk)
Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly.
On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote: Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2.
I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term.
Don't know, people still remember Sniper And people remember Moscow and LA olympics
Yes but surely we can draw distinctions between asterisks in different situations?
Like we can categorize government boycotts of olympics, someone winning a GSL with an imbalanced strategy, and a global pandemic forcing a tournament to be played online separately as opposed to just saying "these are competitions in which *something* happened that may have effected the results so they have asterisk". There's levels to this asterisk thing yeh? I think we'll look back at this time and say yeah sure it was online. Everything was online for awhile there what with the whole virus thing
I think the history of t-sports tends to show that asterisks generally end up carrying very little weight in the long run, except by the hardcore fans of the 'aggrieved' party. Most fans just accept results with the understanding that 'perfect playing conditions' don't exist in reality. Unless there's actual, explicitly proven, cheating involved, results tend not to get dismissed by most fans. And even then, fans seem to take it in stride unless the governing body explicitly strips a title.
Makes me wonder if some people are still mad StarTale lost to Prime because of the MKP - Squirtle rematch due to the cable incident :o
I can guarantee you there's still ST fans who are upset about that.
On January 22 2021 04:19 Chris_Havoc wrote: [quote]
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name
Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately.
Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha
I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there.
Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue.
I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk)
Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly.
On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote: Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2.
I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term.
Don't know, people still remember Sniper And people remember Moscow and LA olympics
Yes but surely we can draw distinctions between asterisks in different situations?
Like we can categorize government boycotts of olympics, someone winning a GSL with an imbalanced strategy, and a global pandemic forcing a tournament to be played online separately as opposed to just saying "these are competitions in which *something* happened that may have effected the results so they have asterisk". There's levels to this asterisk thing yeh? I think we'll look back at this time and say yeah sure it was online. Everything was online for awhile there what with the whole virus thing
I think the history of t-sports tends to show that asterisks generally end up carrying very little weight in the long run, except by the hardcore fans of the 'aggrieved' party. Most fans just accept results with the understanding that 'perfect playing conditions' don't exist in reality. Unless there's actual, explicitly proven, cheating involved, results tend not to get dismissed by most fans. And even then, fans seem to take it in stride unless the governing body explicitly strips a title.
Makes me wonder if some people are still mad StarTale lost to Prime because of the MKP - Squirtle rematch due to the cable incident :o
I can guarantee you there's still ST fans who are upset about that.
It was MKP vs Parting and you better believe I’m still mad!
Not really but I did like to rile up Prime fans about it back in the day. I don’t think Primes GSTL win was fraudulent because of it or anything
On January 23 2021 22:02 Shathe wrote: First i hope the saved money is really going to be added to the last cent. People may lose track over the span of 2-3 years.
Second i hope this extra money will be evenly distributed throughout the regions.
Yeah I’m seriously concerned they won’t actually add all that money to future tournaments regardless what they say they are gonna do. An outlined plan of where the money is actually going in the future would make me much more comfortable but just saying we’ll use it in future tournaments has me super skeptical. Also the fact that this is the first world championship where winner won’t get $100,000 definitely kills some hype not a fan of that at all they could have still cut the prize pool but maybe not by this much.
EPT
)
And people remember Moscow and LA olympics 
Just don't get me wrong, I am not critizing the online part, I get it, I was actually expecting it and like 2 months ago already saying I don't expect the IEM to be offline. And the IEM will have the asterisk, if not officially it will have it in the minds of many 
