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Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2.
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I think this was the right decision. Generally i like a more flat prize distribution, so I'm fine with it.
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On January 22 2021 19:53 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2021 08:04 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 05:34 Poopi wrote:On January 22 2021 04:19 Chris_Havoc wrote:On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote:
So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we? Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point. Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic. Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately. Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there. Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue. I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk)
I don't think "time zone fatigue" is a thing. It was stated multiple times by multiple people that some players prefer playing at 2 am. And we don't have any jetlag excuses.
Ping on the other hand might suck big time
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 22 2021 21:12 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2021 19:53 deacon.frost wrote:On January 22 2021 08:04 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 05:34 Poopi wrote:On January 22 2021 04:19 Chris_Havoc wrote:On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote:
So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we? Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point. Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic. Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately. Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there. Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue. I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk) I don't think "time zone fatigue" is a thing. It was stated multiple times by multiple people that some players prefer playing at 2 am. And we don't have any jetlag excuses. Ping on the other hand might suck big time
Dude, did you like watch how tired the players look like? I'm not gonna take the Scarlett post again, but we're talking about people who played at 8 AM! Or 4 AM. If it's so fine, then force European to play at shitty times for once, wouldn't it be fair?
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On January 23 2021 00:17 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2021 21:12 Harris1st wrote:On January 22 2021 19:53 deacon.frost wrote:On January 22 2021 08:04 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 05:34 Poopi wrote:On January 22 2021 04:19 Chris_Havoc wrote:On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote:
So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we? Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point. Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic. Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately. Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there. Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue. I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk) I don't think "time zone fatigue" is a thing. It was stated multiple times by multiple people that some players prefer playing at 2 am. And we don't have any jetlag excuses. Ping on the other hand might suck big time Dude, did you like watch how tired the players look like? I'm not gonna take the Scarlett post again, but we're talking about people who played at 8 AM! Or 4 AM. If it's so fine, then force European to play at shitty times for once, wouldn't it be fair?
Can t remember if it was TSL or ASUS, but for one of the two matches where scheduled for Koreans to play in the morning (after sleeping, not after pulling an all-nighter) while Europeans played at midnight - 1am. Which obviously isn t ideal, but a prety good compromise, if you ask me.
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United States23455 Posts
On January 22 2021 19:53 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2021 08:04 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 05:34 Poopi wrote:On January 22 2021 04:19 Chris_Havoc wrote:On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote:
So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we? Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point. Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic. Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately. Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there. Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue. I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk)
Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion.
So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly.
On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote:
Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2.
I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term.
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France12904 Posts
On January 23 2021 00:49 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2021 19:53 deacon.frost wrote:On January 22 2021 08:04 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 05:34 Poopi wrote:On January 22 2021 04:19 Chris_Havoc wrote:On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote:
So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we? Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point. Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic. Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately. Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there. Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue. I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk) Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly. Show nested quote +On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote:
Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2. I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term.
Well it's not been full two years yet, but I still take BlizzCon 2019 where Dark won vs Reynor with an asterisk given the zerg dominant meta of the year. Similarly, I'm pretty sure there are lot of people here remembering ByuN's 2016 BlizzCon win with an asterisk because of reapers and/or tankivac.
As you said though, the asterisk will be different for different people depending on who wins / who had the perceived better conditions.
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United States23455 Posts
On January 23 2021 00:54 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2021 00:49 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 19:53 deacon.frost wrote:On January 22 2021 08:04 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 05:34 Poopi wrote:On January 22 2021 04:19 Chris_Havoc wrote:On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote:
So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we? Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point. Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic. Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately. Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there. Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue. I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk) Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly. On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote:
Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2. I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term. Well it's not been full two years yet, but I still take BlizzCon 2019 where Dark won vs Reynor with an asterisk given the zerg dominant meta of the year. Similarly, I'm pretty sure there are lot of people here remembering ByuN's 2016 BlizzCon win with an asterisk because of reapers and/or tankivac. As you said though, the asterisk will be different for different people depending on who wins / who had the perceived better conditions.
Fair enough but alas in a game like SC2 if we discounted every championship based on game balance at the time we would have precious few "legitimate" champions in the entire game's history. If we go down that road we will be splitting hairs over who gets an asterisk and a panel of SC2 fans (who play/root for different races) would probably put asterisks on like half of all the tournament winners haha. So yeah to each their own people will put asterisks where they please.
And I'm not saying that there won't be an asterisk here. Again I just think there's really nothing to be done about it at this point except try and schedule the matches as evenly as possible and hope for good games.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 23 2021 00:49 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2021 19:53 deacon.frost wrote:On January 22 2021 08:04 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 05:34 Poopi wrote:On January 22 2021 04:19 Chris_Havoc wrote:On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote:
So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we? Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point. Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic. Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately. Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there. Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue. I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk) Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly. Show nested quote +On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote:
Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2. I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term.
Don't know, people still remember Sniper  And people remember Moscow and LA olympics
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On January 23 2021 00:17 deacon.frost wrote:
If it's so fine, then force European to play at shitty times for once, wouldn't it be fair?
We both know that will never happen unfortunately. We've been saying this in each of the Season Finals, but nothing's been done about it.
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United States23455 Posts
On January 23 2021 01:44 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2021 00:49 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 19:53 deacon.frost wrote:On January 22 2021 08:04 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 05:34 Poopi wrote:On January 22 2021 04:19 Chris_Havoc wrote:On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote:
So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we? Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point. Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic. Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately. Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there. Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue. I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk) Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly. On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote:
Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2. I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term. Don't know, people still remember Sniper And people remember Moscow and LA olympics
Yes but surely we can draw distinctions between asterisks in different situations?
Like we can categorize government boycotts of olympics, someone winning a GSL with an imbalanced strategy, and a global pandemic forcing a tournament to be played online separately as opposed to just saying "these are competitions in which *something* happened that may have effected the results so they have asterisk". There's levels to this asterisk thing yeh? I think we'll look back at this time and say yeah sure it was online. Everything was online for awhile there what with the whole virus thing
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 23 2021 03:04 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2021 01:44 deacon.frost wrote:On January 23 2021 00:49 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 19:53 deacon.frost wrote:On January 22 2021 08:04 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 05:34 Poopi wrote:On January 22 2021 04:19 Chris_Havoc wrote:On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote:
So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we? Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point. Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic. Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately. Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there. Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue. I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk) Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly. On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote:
Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2. I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term. Don't know, people still remember Sniper And people remember Moscow and LA olympics Yes but surely we can draw distinctions between asterisks in different situations? Like we can categorize government boycotts of olympics, someone winning a GSL with an imbalanced strategy, and a global pandemic forcing a tournament to be played online separately as opposed to just saying "these are competitions in which *something* happened that may have effected the results so they have asterisk". There's levels to this asterisk thing yeh? I think we'll look back at this time and say yeah sure it was online. Everything was online for awhile there what with the whole virus thing
Code S wasn't online  Just don't get me wrong, I am not critizing the online part, I get it, I was actually expecting it and like 2 months ago already saying I don't expect the IEM to be offline. And the IEM will have the asterisk, if not officially it will have it in the minds of many
On January 23 2021 02:14 buzz_bender wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2021 00:17 deacon.frost wrote:
If it's so fine, then force European to play at shitty times for once, wouldn't it be fair? We both know that will never happen unfortunately. We've been saying this in each of the Season Finals, but nothing's been done about it.
I get why they don't do it, but pretending it has minimal effect on the performance is just ... hmm, I don't know proper term in English nor Czech... damn it xD
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Hype kinda dead, but understandable.
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On January 23 2021 00:49 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2021 19:53 deacon.frost wrote:On January 22 2021 08:04 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 05:34 Poopi wrote:On January 22 2021 04:19 Chris_Havoc wrote:On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote:
So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we? Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point. Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic. Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately. Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there. Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue. I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk) Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly. Show nested quote +On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote:
Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2. I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term.
There will definitely be a big-ass asterisk on next month's Australian Open, that's for sure. Players in quarantine and deprived off training time - no level playing field. Some players didn't travel altogether due to testing positive (Murray) or fear. Quite shambolic. Just proceed with the tournament in some lesser form, but don't count it as a Grand Slam.
Blizzcon took the right approach. Some tournaments have a certain level of prestige. This is the way, or call it off. A blank in Wikipedia explaining its cancellation due to COVID is better than a name next to an asterisk or some long disclaimer.
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What a damn shame.
Hopefully we will still get a great event, nonetheless.
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United States33479 Posts
On January 23 2021 03:04 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2021 01:44 deacon.frost wrote:On January 23 2021 00:49 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 19:53 deacon.frost wrote:On January 22 2021 08:04 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 05:34 Poopi wrote:On January 22 2021 04:19 Chris_Havoc wrote:On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote:
So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we? Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point. Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic. Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately. Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there. Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue. I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk) Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly. On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote:
Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2. I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term. Don't know, people still remember Sniper And people remember Moscow and LA olympics Yes but surely we can draw distinctions between asterisks in different situations? Like we can categorize government boycotts of olympics, someone winning a GSL with an imbalanced strategy, and a global pandemic forcing a tournament to be played online separately as opposed to just saying "these are competitions in which *something* happened that may have effected the results so they have asterisk". There's levels to this asterisk thing yeh? I think we'll look back at this time and say yeah sure it was online. Everything was online for awhile there what with the whole virus thing
I think the history of t-sports tends to show that asterisks generally end up carrying very little weight in the long run, except by the hardcore fans of the 'aggrieved' party. Most fans just accept results with the understanding that 'perfect playing conditions' don't exist in reality. Unless there's actual, explicitly proven, cheating involved, results tend not to get dismissed by most fans. And even then, fans seem to take it in stride unless the governing body explicitly strips a title.
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First i hope the saved money is really going to be added to the last cent. People may lose track over the span of 2-3 years.
Second i hope this extra money will be evenly distributed throughout the regions.
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France12904 Posts
On January 23 2021 18:46 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2021 03:04 Darkhorse wrote:On January 23 2021 01:44 deacon.frost wrote:On January 23 2021 00:49 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 19:53 deacon.frost wrote:On January 22 2021 08:04 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 05:34 Poopi wrote:On January 22 2021 04:19 Chris_Havoc wrote:On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote:
So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we? Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point. Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic. Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately. Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there. Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue. I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk) Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly. On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote:
Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2. I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term. Don't know, people still remember Sniper And people remember Moscow and LA olympics Yes but surely we can draw distinctions between asterisks in different situations? Like we can categorize government boycotts of olympics, someone winning a GSL with an imbalanced strategy, and a global pandemic forcing a tournament to be played online separately as opposed to just saying "these are competitions in which *something* happened that may have effected the results so they have asterisk". There's levels to this asterisk thing yeh? I think we'll look back at this time and say yeah sure it was online. Everything was online for awhile there what with the whole virus thing I think the history of t-sports tends to show that asterisks generally end up carrying very little weight in the long run, except by the hardcore fans of the 'aggrieved' party. Most fans just accept results with the understanding that 'perfect playing conditions' don't exist in reality. Unless there's actual, explicitly proven, cheating involved, results tend not to get dismissed by most fans. And even then, fans seem to take it in stride unless the governing body explicitly strips a title.
Makes me wonder if some people are still mad StarTale lost to Prime because of the MKP - Squirtle rematch due to the cable incident :o
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On January 23 2021 22:06 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2021 18:46 Waxangel wrote:On January 23 2021 03:04 Darkhorse wrote:On January 23 2021 01:44 deacon.frost wrote:On January 23 2021 00:49 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 19:53 deacon.frost wrote:On January 22 2021 08:04 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 05:34 Poopi wrote:On January 22 2021 04:19 Chris_Havoc wrote:On January 22 2021 04:06 sneakyfox wrote:
So are we still calling this the world championship or will we have both 2020 and 2021 without one?
Can't really have an online WC, can we? Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point. Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic. Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately. Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there. Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue. I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk) Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly. On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote:
Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2. I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term. Don't know, people still remember Sniper And people remember Moscow and LA olympics Yes but surely we can draw distinctions between asterisks in different situations? Like we can categorize government boycotts of olympics, someone winning a GSL with an imbalanced strategy, and a global pandemic forcing a tournament to be played online separately as opposed to just saying "these are competitions in which *something* happened that may have effected the results so they have asterisk". There's levels to this asterisk thing yeh? I think we'll look back at this time and say yeah sure it was online. Everything was online for awhile there what with the whole virus thing I think the history of t-sports tends to show that asterisks generally end up carrying very little weight in the long run, except by the hardcore fans of the 'aggrieved' party. Most fans just accept results with the understanding that 'perfect playing conditions' don't exist in reality. Unless there's actual, explicitly proven, cheating involved, results tend not to get dismissed by most fans. And even then, fans seem to take it in stride unless the governing body explicitly strips a title. Makes me wonder if some people are still mad StarTale lost to Prime because of the MKP - Squirtle rematch due to the cable incident :o
I can guarantee you there's still ST fans who are upset about that.
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United States23455 Posts
On January 23 2021 22:14 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2021 22:06 Poopi wrote:On January 23 2021 18:46 Waxangel wrote:On January 23 2021 03:04 Darkhorse wrote:On January 23 2021 01:44 deacon.frost wrote:On January 23 2021 00:49 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 19:53 deacon.frost wrote:On January 22 2021 08:04 Darkhorse wrote:On January 22 2021 05:34 Poopi wrote:On January 22 2021 04:19 Chris_Havoc wrote:
[quote]
Why not? The situation requires it to be online then so be it. The players having been playing online in ESL events for a year. Yes time zones and late night fatigue suck but there is no other feasible way to do it at this point.
Crowds are not necessary to a World Championship either. Even hype is an optional luxury in a pandemic.
Well time zones and late night fatigue suck but the worst is plain and simple cross server lag. Either way the world champion will have an asterisk next to his name Fair enough but tis the world we’re in right now unfortunately. Plenty of traditional sports have had champions crowned with varying degrees of asterisks attached over the last year or so. Seems to me that people attach that asterisk as firmly as they want depending on who wins haha I mean you can pretend that that LA OG were fine and all medals are at their full value. Similarily all the medals awarded at Moscow were not devaluated. But realistically in many sports the best didn't win as they weren't there. Similarily here, the best may suffer from ping and some especially from the time zone fatigue. I agree, it's the world we're living in. But let's not pretend this is equal to playing offline... (i'm not saying you said that, but Katowice really deserve the asterisk) Yeah there will be an asterisk and it'll probably be deserved. I just don't think long term people will really remember. In two years I don't think people will say "Yeah Dark won IEM Katowice, but it was that weird year where it was online". Who knows maybe I'm wrong. To use a tennis example, people put an asterisk on Dominic Thiem winning the US Open for a variety of reasons (no crowd/Federer and Nadal not there/Djokovic got DQ'd) but people pretty much already moved on to just saying yeah Thiem is a grand slam champion. So not saying there won't be an asterisk surely but I don't know how long people will bring it up when the tournament is talked about. And alas not much to be done about it now so we've just got to make the best of it at this point sadly. On January 22 2021 19:55 1gragequit wrote:
Give the additional money to wardi for another tournament.
The money getting lost in future tournaments over 2 years is just kind of lame and doesn't do much for the popularity of SC2. I mean I'm happy that they're keeping that money as a long term investment into SC2 rather than just dumping it into a second online tournament. Seems like that would be better for the popularity of SC2 long term. Don't know, people still remember Sniper And people remember Moscow and LA olympics Yes but surely we can draw distinctions between asterisks in different situations? Like we can categorize government boycotts of olympics, someone winning a GSL with an imbalanced strategy, and a global pandemic forcing a tournament to be played online separately as opposed to just saying "these are competitions in which *something* happened that may have effected the results so they have asterisk". There's levels to this asterisk thing yeh? I think we'll look back at this time and say yeah sure it was online. Everything was online for awhile there what with the whole virus thing I think the history of t-sports tends to show that asterisks generally end up carrying very little weight in the long run, except by the hardcore fans of the 'aggrieved' party. Most fans just accept results with the understanding that 'perfect playing conditions' don't exist in reality. Unless there's actual, explicitly proven, cheating involved, results tend not to get dismissed by most fans. And even then, fans seem to take it in stride unless the governing body explicitly strips a title. Makes me wonder if some people are still mad StarTale lost to Prime because of the MKP - Squirtle rematch due to the cable incident :o I can guarantee you there's still ST fans who are upset about that.
It was MKP vs Parting and you better believe I’m still mad!
Not really but I did like to rile up Prime fans about it back in the day. I don’t think Primes GSTL win was fraudulent because of it or anything
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EPT
