EPTNo new War Chests or Co-op Commanders going forward - Oct…
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We understand that this kind of news can be upsetting to the TL and SC2 community. However, we encourage everyone to voice their opinion on the matter without doing any of the following: - Posting "daed gaem" comments - Posting low content meme comments - Posting about violence and/or death upon Activision Blizzard and their people - Insulting and/or flaming each other because of differing views on what this announcement means for the future of SC2 TL has always prided itself on the fact that it doesn't function like other gaming forums. We don't resort to snide comments induced by rage and anger. We hold mature and level-headed discussions because we hold ourselves to a higher standard than the average teenager-level social media post. Let's all keep that in mind so that this thread doesn't devolve into a shit-fest. | ||
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whiterabbit
2546 Posts
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geokilla
Canada7624 Posts
Also let's not forget any time Pokimane or T1 Tyler streams for example, it's more than what Wardi gets. Heck even Fl0m gets more when he streams himself playing CS for fun. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada14135 Posts
On October 18 2020 06:43 [Phantom] wrote: Sorry I was actually going to say Z>P>T>Z which I think its what we have been seeing the past 2 years. Maybe T=Z recently. Which I believe most people here can agree with? In any case I don't think the game is balanced enough for long term. It's relatively balanced right now, but the game has much more complex unit interactions than BW and it's much more fast paced so I don't think we are at a point where we can leave the game without patches for long, and I doubt Blizzard will continue to patch things (even though they say they might). Has any diverse race game with 3+ races ever been well balanced at anything but the very top level of play? I don't think so. Hell, Chess isn't even perfectly balanced. I don't need an absolutely 100% fair fight to enjoy the game. If I'm using the toughest race in the game and facing someone who is my equal and playing the easiest race then i will probably lose. meh. i view it as part of the game and part of playing a diverse race RTS. Its like being angry about the wind in a baseball game. I'm a better Zerg player than I am Terran player despite playing T a lot more. T is more fun. So I play T and have a worse rank. whatever man. If I have a lot of fun... i win even when i lose the game. I also dabble in competitive EA NHL '94 hockey and Super Tecmo Bowl. Neither of those games is perfectly balanced and their respective competitive communities have been having a blast with those games for decades. I'd say SC2 is more balanced than NHL '94 and Super Tecmo Bowl. Relatively speaking, Blizzard has done a phenomenal job balancing their RTS games. | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States458 Posts
On October 17 2020 15:46 Whois wrote: I played Starcraft when it originally came out, then Broodwar, and then Starcraft 2. So SC has been a part of my life for a very long time. Although I was never into the SC "scene" until SC2 came out in 2010. And while I do follow TL, I exclusively lurk, and have rarely ever posted. Today is kinda important so I thought I would post. 1) The first thing I want to say is that, being mindful of the mod note on the thread, it is important that you let people grief. Some have played SC for a large part of their lives, some only a few years, others have followed the eSports and watched, even as they stopped playing, so we are all invested in this game to varying degrees. I understand that websites like TL promote the game, and don't want to be negative, but in a momentous occasion like this, it is alright to let people grief. Tomorrow will be another day and life will go on. But for now, we should have a right to grief. Obviously not to insult/flame/etc but we, the fans, should be afforded the opportunity to be sad, to lament. That is, those of us who feel that sentiment and wish to express it. 2) I would like to argue against the notion of some that, as Blizzard will keep the servers, and make balance updates, and since they don't play Coop Commanders, that this doesn't affect them. To be crystal clear: THIS IS A DEATH NOTICE. Nothing more (there is always a possibility the game can be resurrected), nothing less (this is bad news no matter how it is being spun). It doesn't cost Blizzard much to make an occasional update to the game. The fact that they have decided not to spent even those few pennies (relatively speaking considering the size of the company) means they see little future in the game. There is no revenue stream in the pipeline. This trickles down to tournaments, and so casters and pro-gamers and other content creators are affected. And so it will affect you, the viewer. So just because you don't play Coop Commanders or participate in War Chests doesn't mean you won't be affected by this announcement. 3) For over 20 years Starcraft has been alive, and in some development form. Whether it be expansions or sequels or ports or remaster or whatever. This announcement puts a nail through all that. So this is a death notice, and for those of us passionate about the game, we should be sad, and lament. Or hold a wake. Or something. It is not business as usual. 4) People keep talking about the community taking over. While that's nice, it won't be as "big". But there's an even larger problem. Unlike Brood War, Blizzard has locked down the IP for Starcraft2 content. I can't see companies investing in the game (tournaments and the like) when they can't control the legal environment and reap the rewards. And I can't see Blizzard letting go of the IP. They would rather see the scene die than let someone else make it a success. As others have said, sometimes if you're a business and you can't make an IP work, you nevertheless keep it to kill it and stop anyone else making it work. 5) I know this post has been negative. But come on. It was a response to shitty news. Just off the top of my head, so I will probably miss major moments. Memories of Starcraft (includes BroodWar): - BGH - remember that anyone?? lolz - Lost Temple - how many games have you played on that map? - Dire Straits - no, not the band, although they are awesome too! Esports: - Nestea - creator of the universe .... while Creator - the kid that just couldn't? - MVP - the whale - MVP vs Squirtle - MC - Boss Toss - Parting - Soul Train - Life - He Whose Name Shall Not be Spoken - Soo - eternal bridesmaid - Serral 2018 - invincible - shout out to InControl (I will forever call it the Artosis pylon) and TotalBiscuit, RIP "And I can't see Blizzard letting go of the IP. They would rather see the scene die than let someone else make it a success. As others have said, sometimes if you're a business and you can't make an IP work, you nevertheless keep it to kill it and stop anyone else making it work." ----- Yeah... Really sad but probably true. -IPLTAC3 when Taeja reverse-all-killed MVP once, and then almost did it a second time. I was at the event. It was spectacular. Everyone was really into it. The line to get Nestea's autograph during intermission was so long eventually he was like, "Alright enough" and he just sat back down. -GomTV and GomPlayer. Staying up super late to watch the games so I could use the build orders myself. -That frenetic rush of finally breaking into Gold for the first time after a game on Desert Oasis. Every league promotion felt like a dream come true. -Watching the Koreans dominate, and rooting for my favorite players. -Korean interviews, where every post-game interview was essentially the same and everyone kept saying, "I hope to make exciting games for my fans". I loved that. -The Fist of Neeb -Beating Terran players who were actually better than I was by getting a few carriers and researching graviton catapult. -All the nights I stayed up late to watch GSL live. Laughing and enjoying the Tastosis banter. Hearing Tasteless say "We love you" at the end of the night. -Discovering Twitch and learning some of the dos and don'ts of engaging with the community. -Hosting my own tournaments. Becoming a sort of recognizable name. ___ I generally believe that the best things in life - the most sophisticated, and containing the most depth - are not things that everyone can easily grasp or even access. I believe life is filled with these kinds of gems, and the paradox is that these things, while they may be the most worthwhile to invest in personally - for those who are privileged to be able to comprehend them - can't ever be the most profitable thing to invest in monetarily because of their innate complexity. For example, if I wanted to turn the greatest profit on my investment, and I had to choose between two instagram channels - a philosophy instagram and a model with an advanced bosom, I would need to choose the model. I would definitely end up richer for catering to the most basic instincts of viewers, and dumbing down the product I offer... but the world ends up poorer for not seeing investment in the complex subject. Given this fact, I lament daily that many people see riches as the primary barometer of what makes something or someone worthwhile. But... Well, basic nature always wins out eventually. It's a truly grand challenge to create and maintain things that most people aren't interested in. It's costly. And the fact that So many community tournaments have been created despite what is essentially a guarantee (legally) that anything too profitable can actually just be taken at any moment by Activision-Blizzard speaks to the truth that Starcraft is one of those incredible gems. I really think that the people who are interested in this game are some of the smartest, most talented, interesting people on the planet Earth. The Starcraft fans I've met in real life have always impressed me - often times before I had any idea they were Starcraft fans. Some of the shrewder ones went on to do great things - perhaps knowing that this would all come to a head eventually. I can feel this beautiful old vessel starting to take on some water. I really, truly, sincerely hope that Activision-Blizzard will allow our ship to make port so that it can be refurbished and kept alive by motivations beyond good will. | ||
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serralfan18
65 Posts
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20-Minute-Jackal
United States336 Posts
Although, I don't think Blizzard has ever run a successful E-sport venture themselves. Brood War was a happy accident that happened organically in South Korea that couldn't be replicated anywhere else. Also, Blizzard had little to do in actual organizing of it. StarCraft 2 was successful for the first couple of years and that begin to dip in 2012 when the rising MOBA genre began to eat into its viewer base. WoW arenas never caught on, neither did competitive dungeons. HotS was entirely artificial from start to finish and was a loss leader. Overwatch League was the biggest mainstream success Blizzard ever achieved, and I watch it, but it's an example of how not to make an E-sport league. And it may not be around in a year or two with its dwindling viewership problems. StarCraft 2, in my opinion, lasted as long as it did almost entirely due to the beneficence of Mike Morhaime. | ||
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DevilDriver
Germany44 Posts
But if I would be a young, non-established player and have real passion for this game and the skill and am thinking about, whether I want to make a career off of this game.... Tough decision I think many of the established players should have significant savings, so they could change career plans if they want. But for casters, etc. I don't think this applies. Of course you can always make some extra money with streaming. But I wonder at which point some casters I love will seriously consider quitting, because they don't want to build their career on such unstable ground. I wish Activision Blizzard would take more responsibility here. I mean, they know what kind of reaction this post would cause. Instead of playing with open cards and presenting a plan for the next years, they leave a lot of room for speculation. Even if they entirely quit sponsoring this game, I would rather have them say that right away with a date, so the involved people can plan ahead. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland14599 Posts
On October 18 2020 12:03 ThunderJunk wrote: "And I can't see Blizzard letting go of the IP. They would rather see the scene die than let someone else make it a success. As others have said, sometimes if you're a business and you can't make an IP work, you nevertheless keep it to kill it and stop anyone else making it work." ----- Yeah... Really sad but probably true. -IPLTAC3 when Taeja reverse-all-killed MVP once, and then almost did it a second time. I was at the event. It was spectacular. Everyone was really into it. The line to get Nestea's autograph during intermission was so long eventually he was like, "Alright enough" and he just sat back down. -GomTV and GomPlayer. Staying up super late to watch the games so I could use the build orders myself. -That frenetic rush of finally breaking into Gold for the first time after a game on Desert Oasis. Every league promotion felt like a dream come true. -Watching the Koreans dominate, and rooting for my favorite players. -Korean interviews, where every post-game interview was essentially the same and everyone kept saying, "I hope to make exciting games for my fans". I loved that. -The Fist of Neeb -Beating Terran players who were actually better than I was by getting a few carriers and researching graviton catapult. -All the nights I stayed up late to watch GSL live. Laughing and enjoying the Tastosis banter. Hearing Tasteless say "We love you" at the end of the night. -Discovering Twitch and learning some of the dos and don'ts of engaging with the community. -Hosting my own tournaments. Becoming a sort of recognizable name. ___ I generally believe that the best things in life - the most sophisticated, and containing the most depth - are not things that everyone can easily grasp or even access. I believe life is filled with these kinds of gems, and the paradox is that these things, while they may be the most worthwhile to invest in personally - for those who are privileged to be able to comprehend them - can't ever be the most profitable thing to invest in monetarily because of their innate complexity. For example, if I wanted to turn the greatest profit on my investment, and I had to choose between two instagram channels - a philosophy instagram and a model with an advanced bosom, I would need to choose the model. I would definitely end up richer for catering to the most basic instincts of viewers, and dumbing down the product I offer... but the world ends up poorer for not seeing investment in the complex subject. Given this fact, I lament daily that many people see riches as the primary barometer of what makes something or someone worthwhile. But... Well, basic nature always wins out eventually. It's a truly grand challenge to create and maintain things that most people aren't interested in. It's costly. And the fact that So many community tournaments have been created despite what is essentially a guarantee (legally) that anything too profitable can actually just be taken at any moment by Activision-Blizzard speaks to the truth that Starcraft is one of those incredible gems. I really think that the people who are interested in this game are some of the smartest, most talented, interesting people on the planet Earth. The Starcraft fans I've met in real life have always impressed me - often times before I had any idea they were Starcraft fans. Some of the shrewder ones went on to do great things - perhaps knowing that this would all come to a head eventually. I can feel this beautiful old vessel starting to take on some water. I really, truly, sincerely hope that Activision-Blizzard will allow our ship to make port so that it can be refurbished and kept alive by motivations beyond good will. Here here. Did Starcraft make actually quite a lot of money? Yes. Did it make all the money others did? Well no. But if you’re both a creator and a member of the wider community, 10 years of great moments, events and developing the game. Meeting new and interesting people. Were Mike Morhaime etc so into Starcraft because it made so much money, or that they’d developed a product that inspired such community and a level of unanticipated mastery of the actual game that they could appreciate? Seeing all the strategies and crazy micro tricks of the pros must be pretty satisfying, giving them a base set of tools and seeing them work magic with them. It’s a bad state of affair for us community members the direction Blizz is taking lately, but we should also spare a thought for the many creatives who want to work on projects that inspire this kind of devotion too. | ||
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algue
France1410 Posts
On October 18 2020 13:48 serralfan18 wrote: Well I can only hope these dev resources would go to Starcraft 3 or Warcraft 4! Not gonna lie, I'd rather have another company develop a new competitive RTS game. Blizzard has lost their mojo | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5118 Posts
There is people in the community who would do this for free. | ||
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Caihead
Canada8522 Posts
Look at the way FPS esports has shifted away from fast paced arena shooters like Quake towards team death match games like CSGO. And arena shooters like Doom and Quake were the grand father of all esports and PC gaming in general, that stuff used to be massive back in the 90s in terms of media coverage and being on ESPN. Even COD which is one of the biggest franchises in the world and had a big head start with esports in MLG never recovered its popularity. I don’t think this has much to do with how blizzard promoted the game. Few companies in the world have even tried to support a single esport for a decade, especially when you aren’t pulling in the numbers. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland14599 Posts
On October 18 2020 21:19 Caihead wrote: I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect RTS to be a big esport nowadays. Consumer tastes are changing and one company despite all the resources it has can’t force the market to change. Look at the way FPS esports has shifted away from fast paced arena shooters like Quake towards team death match games like CSGO. And arena shooters like Doom and Quake were the grand father of all esports and PC gaming in general, that stuff used to be massive back in the 90s in terms of media coverage and being on ESPN. Even COD which is one of the biggest franchises in the world and had a big head start with esports in MLG never recovered its popularity. I don’t think this has much to do with how blizzard promoted the game. Few companies in the world have even tried to support a single esport for a decade, especially when you aren’t pulling in the numbers. I’m not sure I entirely agree. Consumers can only play what the market produces, or what they know exists. Or want to play what their friends are playing. There’s a lot of factors. Cross-platform development in the FPS sphere really kicked arena shooters to the curb as well, you really can’t play those hyper fast games with lots of advanced movement and verticality well with a controller. You have the problem of genre veterans too and this can only be mitigated by a big player pool in any new title. Even a merely decent long-time Quake player, or SC player playing a new RTS will just utterly crush players trying to learn. SC2 when compared to the RTS market both then and now was still pretty gigantic. Partly by virtue of being well-made, partly by being well, a Blizzard game with all that entails. I’m unsure how to flip overall consumer trends, but a big dev really pushing a well-made arena shooter or RTS I think you can still capture enough of the market to have a really viable competitive game. You only really need one standout title to cover a genre. More is desirable of course but especially with something that is more niche in current trends. I reckon if say, the next Valve game was in either of the two aforementioned genres and were of high quality that’d be enough to punch through. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada12964 Posts
It's niche, and even if it isn't getting single player updates, that doesn't mean the franchise is dead, nor does it mean that SC2 itself isn't going to continue to be played. There are many many older games that stick around for years after active development. I don't think we need to resort to thinking that the franchise is on some sort of death march. It's been pretty consistently niche for a while now. RTS is the Tennis of esports, and SC:BW and SC2 are the clay and grass courts of Tennis. It's fine. Is it sad there will be less development on SC2? yeah of course. But we don't know where else the franchise is headed, and I'll enjoy it because I like the universe. I still hope some next great RTS comes out though. I'd like that. And if it comes from Morhaime's new crew and not Blizzard that's ok with me as well. | ||
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AbouSV
Germany1221 Posts
 I quite dislike that they make it sound like it was great so far: "This year we celebrated 10 years of StarCraft II with one of our largest-ever patches, with massive updates to the editor, Prestige Talents for Co-op Commanders, and gameplay improvements delivered to players worldwide."... The three points from the updates are -Editor updates that were asked for years -Talent tree that literally takes 2h for an intern to program (and is very common in other games, including their own Diablo 3) -Balance update they anyway do regularly and also don't require much dev. For the warchests, I bough a couple for the sake of supporting, but the content were quite ridiculous as well. I'm anyway now fuelled by Mike Moraime's and co. new projects. In the meanwhile, I'll keep getting wreck on SC2 ladder :D | ||
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Whatson
United States5312 Posts
On October 19 2020 00:45 ZeromuS wrote: I really don't see how everyone can be making straight claims that SC is over as if war chests and co-op commanders were things that were keeping SC2 on the radar of everyone. It's niche, and even if it isn't getting single player updates, that doesn't mean the franchise is dead, nor does it mean that SC2 itself isn't going to continue to be played. There are many many older games that stick around for years after active development. I don't think we need to resort to thinking that the franchise is on some sort of death march. It's been pretty consistently niche for a while now. RTS is the Tennis of esports, and SC:BW and SC2 are the clay and grass courts of Tennis. It's fine. Is it sad there will be less development on SC2? yeah of course. But we don't know where else the franchise is headed, and I'll enjoy it because I like the universe. I still hope some next great RTS comes out though. I'd like that. And if it comes from Morhaime's new crew and not Blizzard that's ok with me as well. It may be niche to us, but we're still the minority. Plenty of people play SC2 entirely for the co-op and custom games, and couldn't care less about 1v1 competitive. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic10188 Posts
On October 19 2020 00:45 ZeromuS wrote: I really don't see how everyone can be making straight claims that SC is over as if war chests and co-op commanders were things that were keeping SC2 on the radar of everyone. It's niche, and even if it isn't getting single player updates, that doesn't mean the franchise is dead, nor does it mean that SC2 itself isn't going to continue to be played. There are many many older games that stick around for years after active development. I don't think we need to resort to thinking that the franchise is on some sort of death march. It's been pretty consistently niche for a while now. RTS is the Tennis of esports, and SC:BW and SC2 are the clay and grass courts of Tennis. It's fine. Is it sad there will be less development on SC2? yeah of course. But we don't know where else the franchise is headed, and I'll enjoy it because I like the universe. I still hope some next great RTS comes out though. I'd like that. And if it comes from Morhaime's new crew and not Blizzard that's ok with me as well. If only, top tennis players get so many monies  | ||
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BabelFish1
178 Posts
Unlikely for a lot of reasons...at least for a while. 1st off, ActiBlizzard is really, really into micro transactions, thet's their bread and butter so it's going to take loot box regulation to collapse that model before we see a return to traditional games and their DLC/Expansion profit models. 2nd, RTS, unfortunately is a niche genre that's basically 3/4 dead. For faster paced RTS which includes base building, you've sc2...that's it. AoE is slow paced. Total War series has no resource management, then you get into turn-based, etc. So it's unlikely, unless rts makes a comeback that we'll get a SC3. 3rd, I suspect ActiBlizz wants to bring StarCraft into a business model which supports heavier monetization while reaching to a larger audience. It wouldn't shock me in the slightest if ActiBlizzard was considering a MMOFPS StarCraft game given the massive generational leap in GPUs and even with things like UE4's Chaos Physics (fully destructible objects such as buildings). In essence, I think it's more likely we'll see something similar to what happened with WarCraft; a move away from RTS into a new genre. I just hope it's not World of Starcraft crap, MMOFPS would be a much more solid choice for the sci-fi setting of StarCraft than a MMORPG. | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico1712 Posts
On October 19 2020 05:15 BabelFish1 wrote: Unlikely for a lot of reasons...at least for a while. 1st off, ActiBlizzard is really, really into micro transactions, thet's their bread and butter so it's going to take loot box regulation to collapse that model before we see a return to traditional games and their DLC/Expansion profit models. 2nd, RTS, unfortunately is a niche genre that's basically 3/4 dead. For faster paced RTS which includes base building, you've sc2...that's it. AoE is slow paced. Total War series has no resource management, then you get into turn-based, etc. So it's unlikely, unless rts makes a comeback that we'll get a SC3. 3rd, I suspect ActiBlizz wants to bring StarCraft into a business model which supports heavier monetization while reaching to a larger audience. It wouldn't shock me in the slightest if ActiBlizzard was considering a MMOFPS StarCraft game given the massive generational leap in GPUs and even with things like UE4's Chaos Physics (fully destructible objects such as buildings). In essence, I think it's more likely we'll see something similar to what happened with WarCraft; a move away from RTS into a new genre. I just hope it's not World of Starcraft crap, MMOFPS would be a much more solid choice for the sci-fi setting of StarCraft than a MMORPG. Wasn't there a report that they were making an Sc2 fps but cancelled it cause it would compete with overwatch? For what is worth I think sc3 is more probable than Warcraft 4. Wow is doing ok and they are continuing the story. Wc4 would need to either be a remake of an older game (hmmm) or be way in the future/alternate universe. Though I agree a game in the style of sc ghost or a co-op inspired game might be the future of sc. | ||
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whiterabbit
2546 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
900 Posts
To me not a lot has changed. Sure I wont buy a new warchest and I wont be playing a new coop commander like last year but I like playing the game starcraft generally not just the new and shiny stuff about it. I actually like it more when the meta is a bit more stable and not thrown around by crazy balance patches like i.e in League of Legends. Its just absolutely insane to try to keep up with that game, its almost like a full time job to learn everything that they changed just in the past year. SC2 is a very matured game and I think we will have a lot more years of exciting pro matches to watch. Anyways, heres to the future years we will have this game, even if ESL drops it after 2022, I will still follow it and who knows maybe we will get 3rd chapter somewhere along the road! | ||
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