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Active: 735 users

ESL to change player eligibility in sub regions

Forum Index > SC2 General
94 CommentsPost a Reply
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sneakyfox
Profile Joined January 2017
8216 Posts
October 14 2020 08:06 GMT
#1
With DH Masters Fall completed and the feedback from the community received, ESL is releasing some updates to the setup for the ESL Pro Tour. The changes are not final, rather ESL has released them now in order to solicit feedback from progamers and the community.

The full post is available here.

The most important change is to the rules for player eligibility in sub-regions, which has been a point of controversy for some time now, and has been particularly contentious (if not downright toxic) in the Australian/New Zealand community. The changes, which are not final, will go into effect with the 2021 season of the EPT.

ESL writes:

In keeping our rules fair and consistent for all competitors, we do not wish to create regional specific sub-ruling. Therefore dual citizenship holders will remain to be treated equally to those citizens who reside within the region. While this rule exists, we will continue to provide as fair as possible conditions for all players to complete. It is important to note that at no point can a citizen living abroad from the region they are competing in be at a server advantage:

1. No player playing from inside their home region will ever be put at a ping disadvantage against someone outside the region.
2. No player playing from inside their home region will ever be forced onto a server that would not also be a valid choice for players both residing inside the region.

With that said and as stated above, we will be changing our approach in 2021 together with other significant changes to the system. For additional transparency our initial thoughts are:

*There will be two methods of participation with a region:

1. Permanent residency within the region you are located at the time of
2. Citizenship within the region you are located at the time of matches.

*Exceptions can be made if an EPT tournament related obligation (e.g. GSL matches) prevent you from travelling to the other region for matches, in that case citizens can play in the region of their citizenship from abroad under the same conditions that we currently have.

This effectively would mean that players studying abroad would need to be participating in the region they’re living in during the season, but would not limit them from traveling home if they wish to join their local scene from where they are from. This would also include stipulations for players unable to travel due to GSL commitments, so those in Korea training would be able to maintain both a GSL schedule as well as play in their region of origin.





The proposed changes are being discussed on Twitter among progamers and organisers:







RiSky, who has been the center of the AZ/NZ controversy, writes:


Facebook Twitter Reddit
"I saw what sneakyfox wrote on TL.net and it made me furious" - PartinG
dbRic1203
Profile Joined July 2019
Germany2655 Posts
October 14 2020 09:27 GMT
#2
On October 14 2020 17:06 sneakyfox wrote:

https://twitter.com/ApolloSC2/status/1315675529916420101


This part is just dumb. Either foreigners who want to play in GSL have to forfeit "their" DH Major or leave it as it is. But this is just stupid.
MaxPax
Shuffleblade
Profile Joined February 2012
Sweden1903 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 11:45:18
October 14 2020 11:36 GMT
#3
On October 14 2020 18:27 dbRic1203 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 17:06 sneakyfox wrote:

https://twitter.com/ApolloSC2/status/1315675529916420101


This part is just dumb. Either foreigners who want to play in GSL have to forfeit "their" DH Major or leave it as it is. But this is just stupid.

I don't understand what you think is dumb?

I am a citizen in EU, if I lived in korea/USA/wherever, I could still compete in EU region but I would have to play on their server and therefore be at a ping disadvantage. I makes sense, no matter if I am competing in GSL or not.

It makes total sense to me, they should of course take away this whole korea regionlock thing but that is a separate old issue that this change doesn't effect in the least.

Sounds like good changes to me. I don't really understand Riskys situation but if he feels forced to retire if the rules are fair then there isn't much to do about that. It is sad he lives in a place were he is at a disadvantage but that handicap shouldn't be forced onto other players due to a technicality in the rules.

Edit: Obviously I havent understood the rules properly, after re-reading it seems only GSL players can play in regions they are not located in at the time of playing. That does feel a bit iffy.
Maru, Bomber, TY, Dear, Classic, DeParture and Rogue!
Exedo
Profile Joined January 2020
8 Posts
October 14 2020 11:46 GMT
#4
Can someone give me a link or a brief summary of what's going on with the Austrial/New Zealand scene? Haven't been following that closely.
dbRic1203
Profile Joined July 2019
Germany2655 Posts
October 14 2020 12:21 GMT
#5
On October 14 2020 20:36 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 18:27 dbRic1203 wrote:
On October 14 2020 17:06 sneakyfox wrote:

https://twitter.com/ApolloSC2/status/1315675529916420101


This part is just dumb. Either foreigners who want to play in GSL have to forfeit "their" DH Major or leave it as it is. But this is just stupid.

I don't understand what you think is dumb?

I am a citizen in EU, if I lived in korea/USA/wherever, I could still compete in EU region but I would have to play on their server and therefore be at a ping disadvantage. I makes sense, no matter if I am competing in GSL or not.

It makes total sense to me, they should of course take away this whole korea regionlock thing but that is a separate old issue that this change doesn't effect in the least.

Sounds like good changes to me. I don't really understand Riskys situation but if he feels forced to retire if the rules are fair then there isn't much to do about that. It is sad he lives in a place were he is at a disadvantage but that handicap shouldn't be forced onto other players due to a technicality in the rules.

Edit: Obviously I havent understood the rules properly, after re-reading it seems only GSL players can play in regions they are not located in at the time of playing. That does feel a bit iffy.

Yep, the way you descibe it, was the way it has been this year. For next year they want to change it, so that beeing a citicen, e.g. beeing legally allowed to vote in that country, fight in their army and represent them in national teams, is not enough to play as a representative from that country.
Instead you have to fly there, no matter if it s an online or offline tournament. UNLESS you play GSL. Wich is just wrong either, they leave it as it is, or they include foreigners in korea.
MaxPax
dbRic1203
Profile Joined July 2019
Germany2655 Posts
October 14 2020 12:22 GMT
#6
On October 14 2020 20:46 Exedo wrote:
Can someone give me a link or a brief summary of what's going on with the Austrial/New Zealand scene? Haven't been following that closely.

here is a thread, that gives a nice overview:
https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/560795-dh-oceania-risky-controversy

Can t remember, if it s up to date with all the links..
MaxPax
stilt
Profile Joined October 2012
France2749 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 12:36:51
October 14 2020 12:23 GMT
#7
On October 14 2020 20:46 Exedo wrote:
Can someone give me a link or a brief summary of what's going on with the Austrial/New Zealand scene? Haven't been following that closely.


Aussie community is composed of pretty terrible people and players who caused massive outrage (ok not everybody actually but most are bullies) because with nz nationality, Risky could compete there from uk.
outscar
Profile Joined September 2014
2832 Posts
October 14 2020 12:31 GMT
#8
Dumb...
sunbeams are never made like me...
RPR_Tempest
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Australia7798 Posts
October 14 2020 12:45 GMT
#9
Looking pretty perfect!
Soundwave, Zerg player from Canberra, Australia. @SoundwaveSC
dbRic1203
Profile Joined July 2019
Germany2655 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 12:53:44
October 14 2020 12:52 GMT
#10
On October 14 2020 21:45 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Looking pretty perfect!

Yeah, if you re only looking at your own region and don t care about what the rest of the world does.
Yes I get it, it felt unfair, that Risky was allowed to play in Aus/RoA. But I belive, that
1) he isn t to blame, as he just followed the rules
2) the rules are actually fine, as they accomodate every other case
3) there shouldn t be a rule, stating "Risky can t play in Aus/RoA

Imo, there would be 3 ways, that are all better, than what has been proposed:
1) leave the systhem as it is now
2) foreigners have to choose between DH and GSL and everyone has to be physically in the region, he plays in
3) foreigners aren t allowed in GSL

MaxPax
geokilla
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada8230 Posts
October 14 2020 12:52 GMT
#11
ESL is looking more like a joke in both SC2 and CS:GO...
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
October 14 2020 12:53 GMT
#12
So Risky is eligible to play only if he moves for the games to the NZ? uhhhh... sucks for him, but generally this is probably better and I wouldn't say it was built around him.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
dysenterymd
Profile Joined January 2019
1199 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 12:54:45
October 14 2020 12:53 GMT
#13
Players should be allowed to participate in one region person season, and residency or citizenship should both qualify you to play in a region. To reward players for training on the local server (and thus developing the scene beyond participating in a tournament every few months) always give people living in-region the ability to force play on the home server. Not that complicated...

Even if it means a few top Koreans moving abroad that's fine, it's not 2015 anymore, 1-3 top Koreans moving to Europe wouldn't stop Europeans from placing highly.
Serral | Inno | sOs | soO | Has | Classic
dbRic1203
Profile Joined July 2019
Germany2655 Posts
October 14 2020 12:54 GMT
#14
On October 14 2020 21:53 dysenterymd wrote:
Players should be allowed to participate in one region person season, and residency or citizenship should both qualify you to play in a region. To reward players for training on the local server (and thus developing the scene beyond participating in a tournament every few months) always give people living in-region the ability to force play on the home server. Not that complicated...

Thats what it has been all the time. But that s not enough for some Aus players unfortunatly
MaxPax
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
October 14 2020 12:59 GMT
#15
Not sure if I like these changes or not.
Avoiding home players to have ping disadvantage is the right idea, theorically, but forcing people to travel might not be the right solution especially considering the pandemic situation we are in.

I don't think korean scene needs any protection, there are barely enough korean players to fill Code S and the only foreign player residing in Korea, Special, is struggling hard not to get ejected as far as I know(feel free to correct me there, I might be wrong).

Why would this change in rules make Risky retire?
He could still play in Europe.
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
October 14 2020 13:05 GMT
#16
On October 14 2020 21:54 dbRic1203 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 21:53 dysenterymd wrote:
Players should be allowed to participate in one region person season, and residency or citizenship should both qualify you to play in a region. To reward players for training on the local server (and thus developing the scene beyond participating in a tournament every few months) always give people living in-region the ability to force play on the home server. Not that complicated...

Thats what it has been all the time. But that s not enough for some Aus players unfortunatly

Wasn't. Previously it was based on the visa system and Koreans were not staying on the right visas in Europe that's why they didn't stay in the WCS EU once the region locking was announced. Or do I remember it wrong?
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55510 Posts
October 14 2020 13:07 GMT
#17
On October 14 2020 21:59 Xain0n wrote:
Why would this change in rules make Risky retire?
He could still play in Europe.

Risky probably thinks his level isn't enough to actually make a decent living as a progamer if he is forced to play EU in everything.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
October 14 2020 13:26 GMT
#18
On October 14 2020 22:07 Elentos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 21:59 Xain0n wrote:
Why would this change in rules make Risky retire?
He could still play in Europe.

Risky probably thinks his level isn't enough to actually make a decent living as a progamer if he is forced to play EU in everything.


I really don't like the tone of his message, nobody is forcing him to quit.
CreightonOlsen
Profile Blog Joined September 2018
United States366 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 13:30:22
October 14 2020 13:30 GMT
#19
Wait until you see the whole picture next year, we shared insight on potential plans to help provide transparency without the full context of next year. It will all make sense soon.


Apollo's second tweet here is by far the most interesting part of this story. We can squabble over minutia for DH: Winter, but this seems to suggest there's a lot going on under the hood that we're not privy to yet. I think it would be foolish to rush to a long-term judgement on the health of the scene before we hear what's coming. Prediction: It's big.
https://www.twitch.tv/CreightonOlsen
Yonnua
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2331 Posts
October 14 2020 13:33 GMT
#20
On October 14 2020 21:53 deacon.frost wrote:
So Risky is eligible to play only if he moves for the games to the NZ? uhhhh... sucks for him, but generally this is probably better and I wouldn't say it was built around him.


No, he's still eligible to play, he just needs to play in the region he's in. The only reason he doesn't is because it gives him an advantage to get more money and points.
LRSL 2014 Finalist! PartinG | Mvp | Bomber | Creator | NaNiwa | herO
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55510 Posts
October 14 2020 13:36 GMT
#21
On October 14 2020 22:26 Xain0n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 22:07 Elentos wrote:
On October 14 2020 21:59 Xain0n wrote:
Why would this change in rules make Risky retire?
He could still play in Europe.

Risky probably thinks his level isn't enough to actually make a decent living as a progamer if he is forced to play EU in everything.


I really don't like the tone of his message, nobody is forcing him to quit.

Nobody is forcing him, that's true. But it's much easier to make a living as a pro who is top 3 in a region (Risky in OCE) than as a pro who is maybe let's say top 30-40 (Risky in EU). It's like a Korean making the consideration of "I'd like to be a pro but is it worth it to keep trying if I don't get into Code S?"
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Luolis
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Finland7103 Posts
October 14 2020 13:36 GMT
#22
On October 14 2020 21:45 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Looking pretty perfect!

Haha you guys couldn't beat Razerblader and Risky so you whine to blizzard to change it. Your scene is a joke.
pro cheese woman / Its never Sunny in Finland. Perkele / FinnishStarcraftTrivia
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
October 14 2020 13:48 GMT
#23
On October 14 2020 22:36 Elentos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 22:26 Xain0n wrote:
On October 14 2020 22:07 Elentos wrote:
On October 14 2020 21:59 Xain0n wrote:
Why would this change in rules make Risky retire?
He could still play in Europe.

Risky probably thinks his level isn't enough to actually make a decent living as a progamer if he is forced to play EU in everything.


I really don't like the tone of his message, nobody is forcing him to quit.

Nobody is forcing him, that's true. But it's much easier to make a living as a pro who is top 3 in a region (Risky in OCE) than as a pro who is maybe let's say top 30-40 (Risky in EU). It's like a Korean making the consideration of "I'd like to be a pro but is it worth it to keep trying if I don't get into Code S?"


That would be Risky's decision. While reasonable, it would be Risky himself admitting he's not good enough to find success in Europe(tactually the region he lives in); the melodramatic/whiny tone seems out of place to me.
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55510 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 14:03:09
October 14 2020 13:54 GMT
#24
On October 14 2020 22:48 Xain0n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 22:36 Elentos wrote:
On October 14 2020 22:26 Xain0n wrote:
On October 14 2020 22:07 Elentos wrote:
On October 14 2020 21:59 Xain0n wrote:
Why would this change in rules make Risky retire?
He could still play in Europe.

Risky probably thinks his level isn't enough to actually make a decent living as a progamer if he is forced to play EU in everything.


I really don't like the tone of his message, nobody is forcing him to quit.

Nobody is forcing him, that's true. But it's much easier to make a living as a pro who is top 3 in a region (Risky in OCE) than as a pro who is maybe let's say top 30-40 (Risky in EU). It's like a Korean making the consideration of "I'd like to be a pro but is it worth it to keep trying if I don't get into Code S?"


That would be Risky's decision. While reasonable, it would be Risky himself admitting he's not good enough to find success in Europe(tactually the region he lives in); the melodramatic/whiny tone seems out of place to me.

Well he's dealing with a pretty hard situation wouldn't you say? ESL are making a global rule change because the OCE scene has convinced them Risky playing from the UK is even worse than the Korean invasion of WCS NA/EU back in HotS. Hard to take that one in I'd say.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
October 14 2020 14:02 GMT
#25
On October 14 2020 22:33 Yonnua wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 21:53 deacon.frost wrote:
So Risky is eligible to play only if he moves for the games to the NZ? uhhhh... sucks for him, but generally this is probably better and I wouldn't say it was built around him.


No, he's still eligible to play, he just needs to play in the region he's in. The only reason he doesn't is because it gives him an advantage to get more money and points.

I obviously meant in the NZ region, as for some reason he's not playing in the EU region
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
October 14 2020 14:12 GMT
#26
On October 14 2020 22:54 Elentos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 22:48 Xain0n wrote:
On October 14 2020 22:36 Elentos wrote:
On October 14 2020 22:26 Xain0n wrote:
On October 14 2020 22:07 Elentos wrote:
On October 14 2020 21:59 Xain0n wrote:
Why would this change in rules make Risky retire?
He could still play in Europe.

Risky probably thinks his level isn't enough to actually make a decent living as a progamer if he is forced to play EU in everything.


I really don't like the tone of his message, nobody is forcing him to quit.

Nobody is forcing him, that's true. But it's much easier to make a living as a pro who is top 3 in a region (Risky in OCE) than as a pro who is maybe let's say top 30-40 (Risky in EU). It's like a Korean making the consideration of "I'd like to be a pro but is it worth it to keep trying if I don't get into Code S?"


That would be Risky's decision. While reasonable, it would be Risky himself admitting he's not good enough to find success in Europe(tactually the region he lives in); the melodramatic/whiny tone seems out of place to me.

Well he's dealing with a pretty hard situation wouldn't you say? ESL are making a global rule change because the OCE scene has convinced them Risky playing from the UK is even worse than the Korean invasion of WCS NA/EU back in HotS. Hard to take that one in I'd say.


Risky's situation would still be pretty standard and better than the one of any european Zerg with comparable skill since he could still theorically fly to ANZ to play there.
If anything, Risky's situation is very advantageous as things stand now; not his fault, of course, the rules allow it.
1gragequit
Profile Joined June 2020
31 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 14:27:12
October 14 2020 14:26 GMT
#27
Just weird entitlement from both Risky and the Aus players. You are all relatively bad at the game. Just get better and be competitive. The region is embarrassing to watch the games. Most of them wouldnt make NA GM. Instead of relying on handouts or giving up, just get better at the game.
buzz_bender
Profile Joined August 2019
445 Posts
October 14 2020 14:27 GMT
#28
On October 14 2020 22:30 CreightonOlsen wrote:
Show nested quote +
Wait until you see the whole picture next year, we shared insight on potential plans to help provide transparency without the full context of next year. It will all make sense soon.


Apollo's second tweet here is by far the most interesting part of this story. We can squabble over minutia for DH: Winter, but this seems to suggest there's a lot going on under the hood that we're not privy to yet. I think it would be foolish to rush to a long-term judgement on the health of the scene before we hear what's coming. Prediction: It's big.


If that's the case, then seeking feedback on these changes without any of us knowing the rest of the context is not very useful or helpful at all. We can only give feedback based on what we're told.
mikedupp
Profile Joined May 2020
233 Posts
October 14 2020 14:34 GMT
#29
On October 14 2020 22:26 Xain0n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 22:07 Elentos wrote:
On October 14 2020 21:59 Xain0n wrote:
Why would this change in rules make Risky retire?
He could still play in Europe.

Risky probably thinks his level isn't enough to actually make a decent living as a progamer if he is forced to play EU in everything.


I really don't like the tone of his message, nobody is forcing him to quit.

It's easier to compete/acquire $ in the oceanic/aus region compared to eu.

Seems logical to me and I don't blame him for retiring if that's the case.
Comedy
Profile Joined March 2016
456 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 14:42:42
October 14 2020 14:42 GMT
#30
This is pretty crazy to me, the OCE scene is so bad and they whine so hard about a mid/bottom tier european pro who has a passport for the region competing, the fact it's actually being changed is crazy
InfCereal
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada1759 Posts
October 14 2020 14:45 GMT
#31
On October 14 2020 23:42 Comedy wrote:
This is pretty crazy to me, the OCE scene is so bad and they whine so hard about a mid/bottom tier european pro who has a passport for the region competing, the fact it's actually being changed is crazy


He doesn't just have a passport. He's a citizen of New Zealand. He's quite literally a citizen of OCE
Cereal
dbRic1203
Profile Joined July 2019
Germany2655 Posts
October 14 2020 14:51 GMT
#32
On October 14 2020 23:26 1gragequit wrote:
Just weird entitlement from both Risky and the Aus players. You are all relatively bad at the game. Just get better and be competitive. The region is embarrassing to watch the games. Most of them wouldnt make NA GM. Instead of relying on handouts or giving up, just get better at the game.

I m pretty sure, most of the guys, actually making it into the main DH Aus/RoA Event are actually somewhere around 6k MMR. While that is obviously way better than "nOt EveN gM!!" They are obviously not even closely on the same level as Players from Regions like Korean, EU, NA or even China.
I m not to sure about the bottom tier Players from TW and LA, though.

I actually like that ESL tries to keep the regions alive. As without any region lock, pretty much every scene but Korea and EU would be insta dead and with how important the Chinese Market for SC2 as a whole is, that would obviously pretty bad news. Also any other traditional sport has national/ continental Championships as well, so having the same system in SC2 is great IMO.

I agree with the point, that they should relax a bit, afaik the guys, actually complaining the loudest about Risky, arent even full time, but do SC2 more as a hobby. So they don t depend on it for a living.
MaxPax
RPR_Tempest
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Australia7798 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 15:06:54
October 14 2020 15:02 GMT
#33
On October 14 2020 22:36 Luolis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 21:45 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Looking pretty perfect!

Haha you guys couldn't beat Razerblader and Risky so you whine to blizzard to change it. Your scene is a joke.

They both got rekt last season dude

On October 14 2020 23:26 1gragequit wrote:
Just weird entitlement from both Risky and the Aus players. You are all relatively bad at the game. Just get better and be competitive. The region is embarrassing to watch the games. Most of them wouldnt make NA GM. Instead of relying on handouts or giving up, just get better at the game.

This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever read on this site.

RiSky was Top 16 EU GM at one point, all the top players in our region are over 6k on Korea/NA. "Most of them wouldn't make NA GM" lol why even open your mouth if you have absolutely no fucking clue what you're talking about???


Also please continue to stay mad that ESL asked for feedback, we provided feedback, and ESL agreed that something needed to change.
Soundwave, Zerg player from Canberra, Australia. @SoundwaveSC
sneakyfox
Profile Joined January 2017
8216 Posts
October 14 2020 15:05 GMT
#34
On October 14 2020 22:30 CreightonOlsen wrote:
Show nested quote +
Wait until you see the whole picture next year, we shared insight on potential plans to help provide transparency without the full context of next year. It will all make sense soon.


Apollo's second tweet here is by far the most interesting part of this story. We can squabble over minutia for DH: Winter, but this seems to suggest there's a lot going on under the hood that we're not privy to yet. I think it would be foolish to rush to a long-term judgement on the health of the scene before we hear what's coming. Prediction: It's big.


Very interesting indeed. At the time of the initial announcement of the EPT, Apollo already said that they wanted to look at the old region lock system but there wasn't time to do it on short notice. Instead that would have to happen for the 2021 season.

Then corona happened, and we got a taste of what a non-region locked system could look like with DH Masters season finals. Surely this is the system we get going forward: region locked qualifiers for S-tier tournaments (with the season finals taking place at the Dreamhack events). And the overall EPT points ranking would probably also be divided into the many regions that exist for DH events.

It would be extremely strange to see them return to the 2016-2019 two-tiered system.

The question then is what role the GSL should have. In my opinion it is fine to keep it open since it taking place over so long time "shields" the Korean scene somewhat. ESL could then adjust the number of qualification spots the GSL has according to how many non-Koreans participate.
"I saw what sneakyfox wrote on TL.net and it made me furious" - PartinG
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25037 Posts
October 14 2020 15:35 GMT
#35
On October 14 2020 22:30 CreightonOlsen wrote:
Show nested quote +
Wait until you see the whole picture next year, we shared insight on potential plans to help provide transparency without the full context of next year. It will all make sense soon.


Apollo's second tweet here is by far the most interesting part of this story. We can squabble over minutia for DH: Winter, but this seems to suggest there's a lot going on under the hood that we're not privy to yet. I think it would be foolish to rush to a long-term judgement on the health of the scene before we hear what's coming. Prediction: It's big.

Perhaps, for sure. If that were the case I’d personally prefer it if the options being mulled over were being more publicly aired, if only to prevent kneejerk speculation.

I think Apollo and his boys know what they’re doing, I like what they’ve done with the SC2 calendar thus far, despite being hamstrung by Covid. The weeklies feeding into the overall circuit standings was a great move and gives both observers like myself and content creators like yourself a constant stream of quality, meaningful Starcraft to mull over. So I have a lot of faith in the ESL folks.

I’m just not really a fan of announcements of announcements in this particular manner.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Philippe
Profile Joined October 2020
351 Posts
October 14 2020 16:20 GMT
#36
On October 15 2020 00:02 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 22:36 Luolis wrote:
On October 14 2020 21:45 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Looking pretty perfect!

Haha you guys couldn't beat Razerblader and Risky so you whine to blizzard to change it. Your scene is a joke.

They both got rekt last season dude

Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 23:26 1gragequit wrote:
Just weird entitlement from both Risky and the Aus players. You are all relatively bad at the game. Just get better and be competitive. The region is embarrassing to watch the games. Most of them wouldnt make NA GM. Instead of relying on handouts or giving up, just get better at the game.

This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever read on this site.

RiSky was Top 16 EU GM at one point, all the top players in our region are over 6k on Korea/NA. "Most of them wouldn't make NA GM" lol why even open your mouth if you have absolutely no fucking clue what you're talking about???


Also please continue to stay mad that ESL asked for feedback, we provided feedback, and ESL agreed that something needed to change.


As a spectator, I found the whole schtick not so amusing either way.

Strictly speaking 6k now doesn't mean a lot of things now. It's not especially a high bar to reach except for the NA region at times. The rules had to be looked at but many corners of the Australian scene should never have flamed Risky. If someone was to be "blamed", it should have been solely the ESL organization.

Now what I'd like to see is whether the OCE region will be able to regularly compete with the best of the rest of the world like they used to in the past. Looking at some of the older matches involving iaguz vs for instance, Has. Given what I saw of Probe in the season finals, not being very optimistic about it for the near future. If there should be a level up, regional lockouts are a thing, but there should be no other handouts whatsoever.
I'm just a cynical video game enjoyer who is probably unfazed by many business dealings many would find utterly distasteful, while not strictly illegal by the law as seen in a general sense in the world.
RPR_Tempest
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Australia7798 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 17:00:15
October 14 2020 16:58 GMT
#37
On October 15 2020 01:20 Philippe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2020 00:02 RPR_Tempest wrote:
On October 14 2020 22:36 Luolis wrote:
On October 14 2020 21:45 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Looking pretty perfect!

Haha you guys couldn't beat Razerblader and Risky so you whine to blizzard to change it. Your scene is a joke.

They both got rekt last season dude

On October 14 2020 23:26 1gragequit wrote:
Just weird entitlement from both Risky and the Aus players. You are all relatively bad at the game. Just get better and be competitive. The region is embarrassing to watch the games. Most of them wouldnt make NA GM. Instead of relying on handouts or giving up, just get better at the game.

This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever read on this site.

RiSky was Top 16 EU GM at one point, all the top players in our region are over 6k on Korea/NA. "Most of them wouldn't make NA GM" lol why even open your mouth if you have absolutely no fucking clue what you're talking about???


Also please continue to stay mad that ESL asked for feedback, we provided feedback, and ESL agreed that something needed to change.


As a spectator, I found the whole schtick not so amusing either way.

Strictly speaking 6k now doesn't mean a lot of things now. It's not especially a high bar to reach except for the NA region at times. The rules had to be looked at but many corners of the Australian scene should never have flamed Risky. If someone was to be "blamed", it should have been solely the ESL organization.

Now what I'd like to see is whether the OCE region will be able to regularly compete with the best of the rest of the world like they used to in the past. Looking at some of the older matches involving iaguz vs for instance, Has. Given what I saw of Probe in the season finals, not being very optimistic about it for the near future. If there should be a level up, regional lockouts are a thing, but there should be no other handouts whatsoever.


It's a lot harder for the current OCE players to distinguish themselves. In the past with iaguz, Petraeus, PiG, etc they went to tournaments that were more open, and got to compete against international pros of various skill levels. Now the player from our region who manages to qualify is against quite literally the best in the world. The best from EU, KR, NA, etc. It's rough going out there. Best they can realistically hope for is to beat the TW rep, IMO. Probe has had series where he's looked really good in the past (Like his 2-3 at LAN against Neeb when Neeb was at his peak form) and I think a lot of his games he does look quite good, but you can tell he's lacking just the refinement that the higher level pros have, and missing a real killer instinct.
Soundwave, Zerg player from Canberra, Australia. @SoundwaveSC
Philippe
Profile Joined October 2020
351 Posts
October 14 2020 20:15 GMT
#38
It's a lot harder for the current OCE players to distinguish themselves. In the past with iaguz, Petraeus, PiG, etc they went to tournaments that were more open, and got to compete against international pros of various skill levels. Now the player from our region who manages to qualify is against quite literally the best in the world. The best from EU, KR, NA, etc. It's rough going out there. Best they can realistically hope for is to beat the TW rep, IMO. Probe has had series where he's looked really good in the past (Like his 2-3 at LAN against Neeb when Neeb was at his peak form) and I think a lot of his games he does look quite good, but you can tell he's lacking just the refinement that the higher level pros have, and missing a real killer instinct.


Saw that. There's no miracle solution about it but there's steps to try at least reduce it. I saw Seither trying to get the feel of the NA server several seasons ago, and Pezz doing it now (I think Azure does that too), and Probe in the KR one. It's not a bad step to try reducing that gap, but I'd like to see some OCE players currently duking it out in the EU server. Maybe it's already the case, but then I didn't see that.

I repeat if needed : ESL had to move at one point. What I'm more afraid of is that it results in players retreating back to more comfort instead of using that push as a springboard to be more adventurous. I don't know, mixing out cheese between more traditional games, doing allins, etc. (not something I see that often)

Now it's only my opinion and if players do feel it different, I won't blame them. It's mostly what I think would be better. And hoping everybody will move on from all this mess.
I'm just a cynical video game enjoyer who is probably unfazed by many business dealings many would find utterly distasteful, while not strictly illegal by the law as seen in a general sense in the world.
gotchaman
Profile Joined May 2019
18 Posts
October 14 2020 21:32 GMT
#39
Oceania should be lumped together with Asia. Having them separate allows players to get rankings that they haven't earned.
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
October 14 2020 22:27 GMT
#40
Is GSL counted as part of it? (some restrictions were already in place due to its offline nature, but still)
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Shuffleblade
Profile Joined February 2012
Sweden1903 Posts
October 14 2020 22:34 GMT
#41
Coming back to thread has made me understand a bit more whats going on but I still wonder, why the regionlock? I actually don't mind the nod towards GSL pilgrims. The foreigners playing GSL did the opposite of trying to play in a weaker region to win easier. The one thorn in my side is if koreans cant compete internationally, that is not fair and I hope Apollos mysterious tweet is a nod towards that changing.

I still don't understand the need to regionlock though, I mean I think its fine if risky plays in OCE as long as he gets the server disadvantage he deseves and as the rules seems to state clearly he would now have.
Maru, Bomber, TY, Dear, Classic, DeParture and Rogue!
CicadaSC
Profile Joined January 2018
United States1604 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-15 00:17:21
October 15 2020 00:16 GMT
#42
I think we should honestly abolish region lock. Enough of this building grassroots shit. We've been building forever. NA is not going to get any stronger before sc2 is finished, and neither is oce or wherever. I'm probably alone in this but whatever.
Remember that we all come from a place of passion!!
warnull
Profile Joined February 2016
United States280 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-15 00:29:39
October 15 2020 00:27 GMT
#43
Can someone clarify - do the proposed rules assume that the regional tournaments will continue to be online in 2021?

Because the 2nd participation method "Citizenship within the region you are located at the time of matches" doesn't make sense for offline tournaments. It is trivially satisfied for all participants.
CicadaSC
Profile Joined January 2018
United States1604 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-15 00:35:31
October 15 2020 00:34 GMT
#44
On October 15 2020 09:27 warnull wrote:
Can someone clarify - do the proposed rules assume that the regional tournaments will continue to be online in 2021?

Because the 2nd participation method "Citizenship within the region you are located at the time of matches" doesn't make sense for offline tournaments. It is trivially satisfied for all participants.

well most of the world is closed or limited capacity so while they dont explicitly say its online youd have to imagine so for the foreseeable future.
Remember that we all come from a place of passion!!
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10668 Posts
October 15 2020 02:32 GMT
#45
No offense to players and people but I don't really see this as a problem, I think the players do just need to play better and do better in their respective regions, they can do it.
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
Luolis
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Finland7103 Posts
October 15 2020 05:21 GMT
#46
On October 15 2020 00:02 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 22:36 Luolis wrote:
On October 14 2020 21:45 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Looking pretty perfect!

Haha you guys couldn't beat Razerblader and Risky so you whine to blizzard to change it. Your scene is a joke.

They both got rekt last season dude

Well why are you complaining about them then? They are citizens of the region as much as you are
pro cheese woman / Its never Sunny in Finland. Perkele / FinnishStarcraftTrivia
Thaniri
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1264 Posts
October 15 2020 07:19 GMT
#47
My hot take:

It's time to remove all region locking.

If a tournament is meant to be a $region tournament, host it in $region.

If someone in Korea wants to come and wreck all the $region tournaments, let them, but make them play on $region servers.

Region locking was initially done to protect foreign players from Korean domination, and that seems to have worked in EU. There are ~5 players from EU who are on par with top Koreans now. Back in 2012 there were really none. However in NA there were none in 2012 and are none today, excepting players like Special and Scarlett who are GSL competitors and actually spend a considerable amount of time in Korea.

I don't believe region locking is good for the overall skill level of a region. Funnily enough I think the best example is the Silicon Valley tech industry. One of the major reasons that it became the best was due to having a high concentration of technology companies in the same area, having a culture of engineers switching between companies often, and having laws which quite strongly protected employees against non-compete clauses in their contracts.

Someone should figure out the secret sauce of why Korea and EU are dominant regions in Starcraft 2, and if they want to bring up NA, SEA, or China, they need to bring that secret sauce there. But it's obviously not region locking.
PresenceSc2
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia4032 Posts
October 15 2020 08:53 GMT
#48
On October 14 2020 22:36 Luolis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 21:45 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Looking pretty perfect!

Haha you guys couldn't beat Razerblader and Risky so you whine to blizzard to change it. Your scene is a joke.

Haha Risky can't beat mid level EU pro's so he changes region to OCE. Risky is a joke!
Stephano//HerO//TaeJa//Squirtle//Bomber
PresenceSc2
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia4032 Posts
October 15 2020 08:54 GMT
#49
Pylon show this week will be interesting! Lets get Risky and Pezz on :D
Stephano//HerO//TaeJa//Squirtle//Bomber
1gragequit
Profile Joined June 2020
31 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-15 08:57:35
October 15 2020 08:56 GMT
#50
On October 15 2020 17:53 PresenceSc2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 22:36 Luolis wrote:
On October 14 2020 21:45 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Looking pretty perfect!

Haha you guys couldn't beat Razerblader and Risky so you whine to blizzard to change it. Your scene is a joke.

Haha Risky can't beat mid level EU pro's so he changes region to OCE. Risky is a joke!

And the fact that he won the entire region and had to be bullied out of it just shows how pathetic the OCE region is. It is literally embarrassing watching the games. Someone like Kyj or Spatz who are completely no name would wipe the floor with the region. The fact that Risky has to retire if he can't play in OCE is the biggest indictment to the region that there can be. He is literally only a pro because OCE is that easy. That pro status could go to someone in EU or Korea that actually deserves it 5x over.
PresenceSc2
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia4032 Posts
October 15 2020 08:58 GMT
#51
On October 15 2020 07:34 Shuffleblade wrote:
Coming back to thread has made me understand a bit more whats going on but I still wonder, why the regionlock? I actually don't mind the nod towards GSL pilgrims. The foreigners playing GSL did the opposite of trying to play in a weaker region to win easier. The one thorn in my side is if koreans cant compete internationally, that is not fair and I hope Apollos mysterious tweet is a nod towards that changing.

I still don't understand the need to regionlock though, I mean I think its fine if risky plays in OCE as long as he gets the server disadvantage he deseves and as the rules seems to state clearly he would now have.

The server disadvantage was the most outrageous part to me. Maybe there can be a compromise now that they fixed that part.

Stephano//HerO//TaeJa//Squirtle//Bomber
PresenceSc2
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia4032 Posts
October 15 2020 09:03 GMT
#52
On October 15 2020 17:56 1gragequit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2020 17:53 PresenceSc2 wrote:
On October 14 2020 22:36 Luolis wrote:
On October 14 2020 21:45 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Looking pretty perfect!

Haha you guys couldn't beat Razerblader and Risky so you whine to blizzard to change it. Your scene is a joke.

Haha Risky can't beat mid level EU pro's so he changes region to OCE. Risky is a joke!

And the fact that he won the entire region and had to be bullied out of it just shows how pathetic the OCE region is. It is literally embarrassing watching the games. Someone like Kyj or Spatz who are completely no name would wipe the floor with the region. The fact that Risky has to retire if he can't play in OCE is the biggest indictment to the region that there can be. He is literally only a pro because OCE is that easy. That pro status could go to someone in EU or Korea that actually deserves it 5x over.

EU player now required to play in EU. Madness! If he lived in NZ people would not give 2 fucks.

You are correct, the SEA region's skill level is low. That's why we get 1 slot. Again, if Risky lived in NZ people would not care.
Stephano//HerO//TaeJa//Squirtle//Bomber
Railgan
Profile Joined August 2010
Switzerland1507 Posts
October 15 2020 09:43 GMT
#53
Risky statement feels like a joke. I met him on ladder recently and he was around 6100 MMR.

He isn't forced to retire because of a Ruling. He is forced to retire because he isn't good at the game.
Not like the rest of OCE is much better but still...
Grandmaster Zerg from Switzerland!!! www.twitch.tv/railgan // www.twitter.com/railgansc // www.youtube.com/c/railgansc
followZeRoX
Profile Joined March 2011
Serbia1449 Posts
October 15 2020 09:47 GMT
#54
I am quite shocked with level of elitism of Europeans towards ANZ players.
So, basically, you are all okay with British player, who have better conditions to practice, to force ANZ players to play on certain server, and win just because hes mother has NZ passport. Madness. Buddy, if you arent good enough ti beat all on higher ping or actually live there and compete under same conditions as others, who cares if you quit.
Now we all should drop a tear over this.

It's kind of abuse of region policy.

For example Probe put a pretty good fight against Rogue im group stage. He wasnt bad. Anz should be represented by anz player, period.


deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-15 09:55:27
October 15 2020 09:53 GMT
#55
On October 15 2020 18:47 followZeRoX wrote:
I am quite shocked with level of elitism of Europeans towards ANZ players.
So, basically, you are all okay with British player, who have better conditions to practice, to force ANZ players to play on certain server, and win just because hes mother has NZ passport. Madness. Buddy, if you arent good enough ti beat all on higher ping or actually live there and compete under same conditions as others, who cares if you quit.
Now we all should drop a tear over this.

It's kind of abuse of region policy.

For example Probe put a pretty good fight against Rogue im group stage. He wasnt bad. Anz should be represented by anz player, period.



So having a citizenship of NZ doesn't make you enough of a representation of ANZ? Who would have thought, I hope this stuff brings over to other sports.

Edit> TBF Risky has more valid reason to play in ANZ than ANY foreigner in the Code S and ANY Korean in foreigner only events. One would thought that the citizenship is enough, but nooooo.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25037 Posts
October 15 2020 09:54 GMT
#56
On October 15 2020 16:19 Thaniri wrote:
My hot take:

It's time to remove all region locking.

If a tournament is meant to be a $region tournament, host it in $region.

If someone in Korea wants to come and wreck all the $region tournaments, let them, but make them play on $region servers.

Region locking was initially done to protect foreign players from Korean domination, and that seems to have worked in EU. There are ~5 players from EU who are on par with top Koreans now. Back in 2012 there were really none. However in NA there were none in 2012 and are none today, excepting players like Special and Scarlett who are GSL competitors and actually spend a considerable amount of time in Korea.

I don't believe region locking is good for the overall skill level of a region. Funnily enough I think the best example is the Silicon Valley tech industry. One of the major reasons that it became the best was due to having a high concentration of technology companies in the same area, having a culture of engineers switching between companies often, and having laws which quite strongly protected employees against non-compete clauses in their contracts.

Someone should figure out the secret sauce of why Korea and EU are dominant regions in Starcraft 2, and if they want to bring up NA, SEA, or China, they need to bring that secret sauce there. But it's obviously not region locking.

There’s no great secret in Korea, BW was a phenomenon in Korea and SC2 adopted some of those structures. Concentration of talent in a relatively small area too, as per your Silicon Valley example. Friends and practice groups amongst the best players in the world went beyond team boundaries.

EU is more tricky. I suppose it’s just got so many players of a certain level that talent can develop from ladder alone up to the WCS standard, where they can earn a living playing full time. There’s that pipeline now.

To me the mystery is not KR> the rest but why it’s generally been Kr>EU>NA forever though. Not just in SC2 but in WC3 as well, and I don’t think the player bases at peak popularity were all that different (inb4 someone proves me wrong)

Only two factors I can really think of culturally that might come into play:

1. The social safety nets of Western/Northern Europe. Maybe there are fewer such pressures on the people who make up the archetypal aspiring pro gamer profile, generally late teens/early 20 folks. Perhaps it’s seen as more viable to delay college, or alternatively you have people who are studying full time while playing a lot of SC2 at a high level, rather than studying + part time job + trying to play.

2. The cheaper cost of living in the East. I guess proportionally tournament winnings and streaming venue go a bit further here, which makes pursuing the game seriously more viable.

Points taken on those aspects of Silicon Valley, it doesn’t really mesh well into the SC scene though. Silicon Valley imports a hell of a lot of talent that was trained and developed their skills elsewhere and brings them enthusiastically into that environment, which is another key component of why the name Silicon Valley resonates with the average Joe.

In the SC2 sense, foreigners have decamped to Korea, rented an apartment in San Francisco and are looking at the products coming out and the occasional snippet of leaked code coming out, rather than helping develop products within x company and being trained in there.





'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-15 10:09:37
October 15 2020 09:58 GMT
#57
On October 15 2020 18:54 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2020 16:19 Thaniri wrote:
My hot take:

It's time to remove all region locking.

If a tournament is meant to be a $region tournament, host it in $region.

If someone in Korea wants to come and wreck all the $region tournaments, let them, but make them play on $region servers.

Region locking was initially done to protect foreign players from Korean domination, and that seems to have worked in EU. There are ~5 players from EU who are on par with top Koreans now. Back in 2012 there were really none. However in NA there were none in 2012 and are none today, excepting players like Special and Scarlett who are GSL competitors and actually spend a considerable amount of time in Korea.

I don't believe region locking is good for the overall skill level of a region. Funnily enough I think the best example is the Silicon Valley tech industry. One of the major reasons that it became the best was due to having a high concentration of technology companies in the same area, having a culture of engineers switching between companies often, and having laws which quite strongly protected employees against non-compete clauses in their contracts.

Someone should figure out the secret sauce of why Korea and EU are dominant regions in Starcraft 2, and if they want to bring up NA, SEA, or1 China, they need to bring that secret sauce there. But it's obviously not region locking.

There’s no great secret in Korea, BW was a phenomenon in Korea and SC2 adopted some of those structures. Concentration of talent in a relatively small area too, as per your Silicon Valley example. Friends and practice groups amongst the best players in the world went beyond team boundaries.

EU is more tricky. I suppose it’s just got so many players of a certain level that talent can develop from ladder alone up to the WCS standard, where they can earn a living playing full time. There’s that pipeline now.

To me the mystery is not KR> the rest but why it’s generally been Kr>EU>NA forever though. Not just in SC2 but in WC3 as well, and I don’t think the player bases at peak popularity were all that different (inb4 someone proves me wrong)

Only two factors I can really think of culturally that might come into play:

1. The social safety nets of Western/Northern Europe. Maybe there are fewer such pressures on the people who make up the archetypal aspiring pro gamer profile, generally late teens/early 20 folks. Perhaps it’s seen as more viable to delay college, or alternatively you have people who are studying full time while playing a lot of SC2 at a high level, rather than studying + part time job + trying to play.

2. The cheaper cost of living in the East. I guess proportionally tournament winnings and streaming venue go a bit further here, which makes pursuing the game seriously more viable.

Points taken on those aspects of Silicon Valley, it doesn’t really mesh well into the SC scene though. Silicon Valley imports a hell of a lot of talent that was trained and developed their skills elsewhere and brings them enthusiastically into that environment, which is another key component of why the name Silicon Valley resonates with the average Joe.

In the SC2 sense, foreigners have decamped to Korea, rented an apartment in San Francisco and are looking at the products coming out and the occasional snippet of leaked code coming out, rather than helping develop products within x company and being trained in there.






Wasn't always this way, Neeb had a great 2016(?), HuK was great in the early stages of WoL, same applies for Idra. So NA players can get good and be the best players of the foreign scene, the question is why they cannot stay good.

Edit> IMO the issue is that the NA scene is way too small. And always was(compared to Korea and Europe). So the pressure to be the best is lessened and region locking didn't help. If you want to play the best players you have to play in Korea - ping disadvantage, or Europe - ping disadvantage. Which doesn't exactly help, does it? NA has the worst case possible, they aren't protected by ping(since better players can overcome this more easily) while their players are hindered by ping(as it hurts them more),

Edit 2> in some stream Goeff was talking about this, that it is the curse of the NA ladder, nobody good plays there, just some streamers, cheaters and pros when they need the matches for WCS. Otherwise those who can play in EU/Korea.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
followZeRoX
Profile Joined March 2011
Serbia1449 Posts
October 15 2020 10:08 GMT
#58
On October 15 2020 18:53 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2020 18:47 followZeRoX wrote:
I am quite shocked with level of elitism of Europeans towards ANZ players.
So, basically, you are all okay with British player, who have better conditions to practice, to force ANZ players to play on certain server, and win just because hes mother has NZ passport. Madness. Buddy, if you arent good enough ti beat all on higher ping or actually live there and compete under same conditions as others, who cares if you quit.
Now we all should drop a tear over this.

It's kind of abuse of region policy.

For example Probe put a pretty good fight against Rogue im group stage. He wasnt bad. Anz should be represented by anz player, period.



So having a citizenship of NZ doesn't make you enough of a representation of ANZ? Who would have thought, I hope this stuff brings over to other sports.

Edit> TBF Risky has more valid reason to play in ANZ than ANY foreigner in the Code S and ANY Korean in foreigner only events. One would thought that the citizenship is enough, but nooooo.


If I understood correctly Risky can force anz players to play on equal ping servers.
Its unfair.
And about citizenship. How many times he has been in NZ? I hope we all get concept of representation here.
I can get Czech passport and citizenship via grandmother. I have never been there but potentially i can represent CZ. How that can be normal?
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
October 15 2020 10:11 GMT
#59
On October 15 2020 19:08 followZeRoX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2020 18:53 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 15 2020 18:47 followZeRoX wrote:
I am quite shocked with level of elitism of Europeans towards ANZ players.
So, basically, you are all okay with British player, who have better conditions to practice, to force ANZ players to play on certain server, and win just because hes mother has NZ passport. Madness. Buddy, if you arent good enough ti beat all on higher ping or actually live there and compete under same conditions as others, who cares if you quit.
Now we all should drop a tear over this.

It's kind of abuse of region policy.

For example Probe put a pretty good fight against Rogue im group stage. He wasnt bad. Anz should be represented by anz player, period.



So having a citizenship of NZ doesn't make you enough of a representation of ANZ? Who would have thought, I hope this stuff brings over to other sports.

Edit> TBF Risky has more valid reason to play in ANZ than ANY foreigner in the Code S and ANY Korean in foreigner only events. One would thought that the citizenship is enough, but nooooo.


If I understood correctly Risky can force anz players to play on equal ping servers.
Its unfair.
And about citizenship. How many times he has been in NZ? I hope we all get concept of representation here.
I can get Czech passport and citizenship via grandmother. I have never been there but potentially i can represent CZ. How that can be normal?

You do realize that this is happening in every sport? All you have to have is a passport and voila, you can represent another country!

I agreewith the ping stuff. Should be played on the home region unless both players agree to play elsewhere
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25037 Posts
October 15 2020 10:21 GMT
#60
On October 15 2020 18:58 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2020 18:54 WombaT wrote:
On October 15 2020 16:19 Thaniri wrote:
My hot take:

It's time to remove all region locking.

If a tournament is meant to be a $region tournament, host it in $region.

If someone in Korea wants to come and wreck all the $region tournaments, let them, but make them play on $region servers.

Region locking was initially done to protect foreign players from Korean domination, and that seems to have worked in EU. There are ~5 players from EU who are on par with top Koreans now. Back in 2012 there were really none. However in NA there were none in 2012 and are none today, excepting players like Special and Scarlett who are GSL competitors and actually spend a considerable amount of time in Korea.

I don't believe region locking is good for the overall skill level of a region. Funnily enough I think the best example is the Silicon Valley tech industry. One of the major reasons that it became the best was due to having a high concentration of technology companies in the same area, having a culture of engineers switching between companies often, and having laws which quite strongly protected employees against non-compete clauses in their contracts.

Someone should figure out the secret sauce of why Korea and EU are dominant regions in Starcraft 2, and if they want to bring up NA, SEA, or1 China, they need to bring that secret sauce there. But it's obviously not region locking.

There’s no great secret in Korea, BW was a phenomenon in Korea and SC2 adopted some of those structures. Concentration of talent in a relatively small area too, as per your Silicon Valley example. Friends and practice groups amongst the best players in the world went beyond team boundaries.

EU is more tricky. I suppose it’s just got so many players of a certain level that talent can develop from ladder alone up to the WCS standard, where they can earn a living playing full time. There’s that pipeline now.

To me the mystery is not KR> the rest but why it’s generally been Kr>EU>NA forever though. Not just in SC2 but in WC3 as well, and I don’t think the player bases at peak popularity were all that different (inb4 someone proves me wrong)

Only two factors I can really think of culturally that might come into play:

1. The social safety nets of Western/Northern Europe. Maybe there are fewer such pressures on the people who make up the archetypal aspiring pro gamer profile, generally late teens/early 20 folks. Perhaps it’s seen as more viable to delay college, or alternatively you have people who are studying full time while playing a lot of SC2 at a high level, rather than studying + part time job + trying to play.

2. The cheaper cost of living in the East. I guess proportionally tournament winnings and streaming venue go a bit further here, which makes pursuing the game seriously more viable.

Points taken on those aspects of Silicon Valley, it doesn’t really mesh well into the SC scene though. Silicon Valley imports a hell of a lot of talent that was trained and developed their skills elsewhere and brings them enthusiastically into that environment, which is another key component of why the name Silicon Valley resonates with the average Joe.

In the SC2 sense, foreigners have decamped to Korea, rented an apartment in San Francisco and are looking at the products coming out and the occasional snippet of leaked code coming out, rather than helping develop products within x company and being trained in there.






Wasn't always this way, Neeb had a great 2016(?), HuK was great in the early stages of WoL, same applies for Idra. So NA players can get good and be the best players of the foreign scene, the question is why they cannot stay good.

Edit> IMO the issue is that the NA scene is way too small. And always was(compared to Korea and Europe). So the pressure to be the best is lessened and region locking didn't help. If you want to play the best players you have to play in Korea - ping disadvantage, or Europe - ping disadvantage. Which doesn't exactly help, does it? NA has the worst case possible, they aren't protected by ping(since better players can overcome this more easily) while their players are hindered by ping(as it hurts them more),

Edit 2> in some stream Goeff was talking about this, that it is the curse of the NA ladder, nobody good plays there, just some streamers, cheaters and pros when they need the matches for WCS. Otherwise those who can play in EU/Korea.

That’s largely always been the way, even at lower levels and going back to what I recall from WC3 the consensus was EU > NA, I do wonder why though. Perhaps NA’s reputation in and of itself makes the server worse too? Kind of becomes self-perpetuating.

I’d have to compare player numbers to be fair, unsure how the servers compared at their peaks and now too. It’s far beyond just being bad practice for top pros, most of my buddies tend to get pretty sizeable MMR boosts when playing on NA.

I mean both Idra and Huk benefitted a lot from being outside of NA at various periods, Neeb too. Idra not really liking the game was as big a factor as any for him dropping off eventually, Huk I think was one of those players you get with every RTS who thrived more when things were being figured out and were new.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Luolis
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Finland7103 Posts
October 15 2020 11:07 GMT
#61
On October 15 2020 19:11 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2020 19:08 followZeRoX wrote:
On October 15 2020 18:53 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 15 2020 18:47 followZeRoX wrote:
I am quite shocked with level of elitism of Europeans towards ANZ players.
So, basically, you are all okay with British player, who have better conditions to practice, to force ANZ players to play on certain server, and win just because hes mother has NZ passport. Madness. Buddy, if you arent good enough ti beat all on higher ping or actually live there and compete under same conditions as others, who cares if you quit.
Now we all should drop a tear over this.

It's kind of abuse of region policy.

For example Probe put a pretty good fight against Rogue im group stage. He wasnt bad. Anz should be represented by anz player, period.



So having a citizenship of NZ doesn't make you enough of a representation of ANZ? Who would have thought, I hope this stuff brings over to other sports.

Edit> TBF Risky has more valid reason to play in ANZ than ANY foreigner in the Code S and ANY Korean in foreigner only events. One would thought that the citizenship is enough, but nooooo.


If I understood correctly Risky can force anz players to play on equal ping servers.
Its unfair.
And about citizenship. How many times he has been in NZ? I hope we all get concept of representation here.
I can get Czech passport and citizenship via grandmother. I have never been there but potentially i can represent CZ. How that can be normal?

You do realize that this is happening in every sport? All you have to have is a passport and voila, you can represent another country!

I agreewith the ping stuff. Should be played on the home region unless both players agree to play elsewhere

But the games were played in a region that is a part of the OCE/SEA-region...
pro cheese woman / Its never Sunny in Finland. Perkele / FinnishStarcraftTrivia
followZeRoX
Profile Joined March 2011
Serbia1449 Posts
October 15 2020 11:09 GMT
#62
On October 15 2020 19:11 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2020 19:08 followZeRoX wrote:
On October 15 2020 18:53 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 15 2020 18:47 followZeRoX wrote:
I am quite shocked with level of elitism of Europeans towards ANZ players.
So, basically, you are all okay with British player, who have better conditions to practice, to force ANZ players to play on certain server, and win just because hes mother has NZ passport. Madness. Buddy, if you arent good enough ti beat all on higher ping or actually live there and compete under same conditions as others, who cares if you quit.
Now we all should drop a tear over this.

It's kind of abuse of region policy.

For example Probe put a pretty good fight against Rogue im group stage. He wasnt bad. Anz should be represented by anz player, period.



So having a citizenship of NZ doesn't make you enough of a representation of ANZ? Who would have thought, I hope this stuff brings over to other sports.

Edit> TBF Risky has more valid reason to play in ANZ than ANY foreigner in the Code S and ANY Korean in foreigner only events. One would thought that the citizenship is enough, but nooooo.


If I understood correctly Risky can force anz players to play on equal ping servers.
Its unfair.
And about citizenship. How many times he has been in NZ? I hope we all get concept of representation here.
I can get Czech passport and citizenship via grandmother. I have never been there but potentially i can represent CZ. How that can be normal?

You do realize that this is happening in every sport? All you have to have is a passport and voila, you can represent another country!

I agreewith the ping stuff. Should be played on the home region unless both players agree to play elsewhere


Well ping stuff is main reason i Wrote all that.

But also, because its happening in sports, doesent mean its right. Still, abuse is abuse.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25037 Posts
October 15 2020 12:19 GMT
#63
On October 15 2020 20:09 followZeRoX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2020 19:11 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 15 2020 19:08 followZeRoX wrote:
On October 15 2020 18:53 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 15 2020 18:47 followZeRoX wrote:
I am quite shocked with level of elitism of Europeans towards ANZ players.
So, basically, you are all okay with British player, who have better conditions to practice, to force ANZ players to play on certain server, and win just because hes mother has NZ passport. Madness. Buddy, if you arent good enough ti beat all on higher ping or actually live there and compete under same conditions as others, who cares if you quit.
Now we all should drop a tear over this.

It's kind of abuse of region policy.

For example Probe put a pretty good fight against Rogue im group stage. He wasnt bad. Anz should be represented by anz player, period.



So having a citizenship of NZ doesn't make you enough of a representation of ANZ? Who would have thought, I hope this stuff brings over to other sports.

Edit> TBF Risky has more valid reason to play in ANZ than ANY foreigner in the Code S and ANY Korean in foreigner only events. One would thought that the citizenship is enough, but nooooo.


If I understood correctly Risky can force anz players to play on equal ping servers.
Its unfair.
And about citizenship. How many times he has been in NZ? I hope we all get concept of representation here.
I can get Czech passport and citizenship via grandmother. I have never been there but potentially i can represent CZ. How that can be normal?

You do realize that this is happening in every sport? All you have to have is a passport and voila, you can represent another country!

I agreewith the ping stuff. Should be played on the home region unless both players agree to play elsewhere


Well ping stuff is main reason i Wrote all that.

But also, because its happening in sports, doesent mean its right. Still, abuse is abuse.

Identity is a complex thing, I’m unsure how big a connection Risky feels to New Zealand, never heard him talk about it but legally he’s got connections to that country. Which counts in al sorts of areas from visas through to representing nations at Olympic level.

The ping issues weren’t exactly fair to force on Oceania players, so tweak the server rules there if needs be.

Assuming I’m reading the proposed changes correctly we’re going from a situation with perceived unfairness (we could honestly just call this section of the structure the ‘Risky rule’), that is quite limited in scope, to one that is more unfair to more people and to the spirit of regional competition.

A notable example being Kelazhur who is born and bred in Brazil, but who is studying in Europe being unable to participate in the Latin America region, unless he travels back for competition periods.

Which isn’t a cheap journey, nor will tournaments necessarily line up with his academic commitments.

So the end result of these changes appears to be that a huge part of the LAM scene for years is restricted from easily playing in that region, which isn’t the strongest field either, just so that a singular New Zealand citizen can’t play in Oceania?

This in addition to Special and other Korean based players not having the same kind of restrictions, because competing in GSL is considered a tour commitment and is exempt.

Ultimately we’re (IMO) ending up with a worse scenario as a solution to a singular individual course, and in a manner that doesn’t reflect all sorts of other real world scenarios as per citizenship rules.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
followZeRoX
Profile Joined March 2011
Serbia1449 Posts
October 15 2020 12:58 GMT
#64
On October 15 2020 21:19 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2020 20:09 followZeRoX wrote:
On October 15 2020 19:11 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 15 2020 19:08 followZeRoX wrote:
On October 15 2020 18:53 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 15 2020 18:47 followZeRoX wrote:
I am quite shocked with level of elitism of Europeans towards ANZ players.
So, basically, you are all okay with British player, who have better conditions to practice, to force ANZ players to play on certain server, and win just because hes mother has NZ passport. Madness. Buddy, if you arent good enough ti beat all on higher ping or actually live there and compete under same conditions as others, who cares if you quit.
Now we all should drop a tear over this.

It's kind of abuse of region policy.

For example Probe put a pretty good fight against Rogue im group stage. He wasnt bad. Anz should be represented by anz player, period.



So having a citizenship of NZ doesn't make you enough of a representation of ANZ? Who would have thought, I hope this stuff brings over to other sports.

Edit> TBF Risky has more valid reason to play in ANZ than ANY foreigner in the Code S and ANY Korean in foreigner only events. One would thought that the citizenship is enough, but nooooo.


If I understood correctly Risky can force anz players to play on equal ping servers.
Its unfair.
And about citizenship. How many times he has been in NZ? I hope we all get concept of representation here.
I can get Czech passport and citizenship via grandmother. I have never been there but potentially i can represent CZ. How that can be normal?

You do realize that this is happening in every sport? All you have to have is a passport and voila, you can represent another country!

I agreewith the ping stuff. Should be played on the home region unless both players agree to play elsewhere


Well ping stuff is main reason i Wrote all that.

But also, because its happening in sports, doesent mean its right. Still, abuse is abuse.

Identity is a complex thing, I’m unsure how big a connection Risky feels to New Zealand, never heard him talk about it but legally he’s got connections to that country. Which counts in al sorts of areas from visas through to representing nations at Olympic level.

The ping issues weren’t exactly fair to force on Oceania players, so tweak the server rules there if needs be.

Assuming I’m reading the proposed changes correctly we’re going from a situation with perceived unfairness (we could honestly just call this section of the structure the ‘Risky rule’), that is quite limited in scope, to one that is more unfair to more people and to the spirit of regional competition.

A notable example being Kelazhur who is born and bred in Brazil, but who is studying in Europe being unable to participate in the Latin America region, unless he travels back for competition periods.

Which isn’t a cheap journey, nor will tournaments necessarily line up with his academic commitments.

So the end result of these changes appears to be that a huge part of the LAM scene for years is restricted from easily playing in that region, which isn’t the strongest field either, just so that a singular New Zealand citizen can’t play in Oceania?

This in addition to Special and other Korean based players not having the same kind of restrictions, because competing in GSL is considered a tour commitment and is exempt.

Ultimately we’re (IMO) ending up with a worse scenario as a solution to a singular individual course, and in a manner that doesn’t reflect all sorts of other real world scenarios as per citizenship rules.


Look, I totally agree with you.
Main problem here was server forcing. Why would anyone from LATAM or ANZ would be forced to play on worse ping then he could because someone is living outside of that region? That was my main question.

Kelazhur shouldnt be restricted from LATAM region but if he wants to compete he should do it on Brazil server (or whatever they use). In that scenario he wouldnt win that easily and might be considering playing in EU. If COVID passed up to now he could fly to Brasil, or Risky could fly to NZ and compete in "LAN", I dont think anyone would even raise an eyebrow.

GSL rules was always different. Personally, I am against region locking in any case but Risky rule is a bit different. He has no ties with NZ nor with community, thus far he cant be "best NZ has to offer". Imagine in year or two how this rule could be abused by others. Stephano used this to qualify as African representative in WESG, Gabe used this to play in Italian qualifier in same tournament. It's just unfair. This are not teams. I had same complaint in conventional sports.
Also, we cant make rules to students who cannot travel for tournaments, but for those who go for progamer solution.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25037 Posts
October 15 2020 13:14 GMT
#65
On October 15 2020 21:58 followZeRoX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2020 21:19 WombaT wrote:
On October 15 2020 20:09 followZeRoX wrote:
On October 15 2020 19:11 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 15 2020 19:08 followZeRoX wrote:
On October 15 2020 18:53 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 15 2020 18:47 followZeRoX wrote:
I am quite shocked with level of elitism of Europeans towards ANZ players.
So, basically, you are all okay with British player, who have better conditions to practice, to force ANZ players to play on certain server, and win just because hes mother has NZ passport. Madness. Buddy, if you arent good enough ti beat all on higher ping or actually live there and compete under same conditions as others, who cares if you quit.
Now we all should drop a tear over this.

It's kind of abuse of region policy.

For example Probe put a pretty good fight against Rogue im group stage. He wasnt bad. Anz should be represented by anz player, period.



So having a citizenship of NZ doesn't make you enough of a representation of ANZ? Who would have thought, I hope this stuff brings over to other sports.

Edit> TBF Risky has more valid reason to play in ANZ than ANY foreigner in the Code S and ANY Korean in foreigner only events. One would thought that the citizenship is enough, but nooooo.


If I understood correctly Risky can force anz players to play on equal ping servers.
Its unfair.
And about citizenship. How many times he has been in NZ? I hope we all get concept of representation here.
I can get Czech passport and citizenship via grandmother. I have never been there but potentially i can represent CZ. How that can be normal?

You do realize that this is happening in every sport? All you have to have is a passport and voila, you can represent another country!

I agreewith the ping stuff. Should be played on the home region unless both players agree to play elsewhere


Well ping stuff is main reason i Wrote all that.

But also, because its happening in sports, doesent mean its right. Still, abuse is abuse.

Identity is a complex thing, I’m unsure how big a connection Risky feels to New Zealand, never heard him talk about it but legally he’s got connections to that country. Which counts in al sorts of areas from visas through to representing nations at Olympic level.

The ping issues weren’t exactly fair to force on Oceania players, so tweak the server rules there if needs be.

Assuming I’m reading the proposed changes correctly we’re going from a situation with perceived unfairness (we could honestly just call this section of the structure the ‘Risky rule’), that is quite limited in scope, to one that is more unfair to more people and to the spirit of regional competition.

A notable example being Kelazhur who is born and bred in Brazil, but who is studying in Europe being unable to participate in the Latin America region, unless he travels back for competition periods.

Which isn’t a cheap journey, nor will tournaments necessarily line up with his academic commitments.

So the end result of these changes appears to be that a huge part of the LAM scene for years is restricted from easily playing in that region, which isn’t the strongest field either, just so that a singular New Zealand citizen can’t play in Oceania?

This in addition to Special and other Korean based players not having the same kind of restrictions, because competing in GSL is considered a tour commitment and is exempt.

Ultimately we’re (IMO) ending up with a worse scenario as a solution to a singular individual course, and in a manner that doesn’t reflect all sorts of other real world scenarios as per citizenship rules.


Look, I totally agree with you.
Main problem here was server forcing. Why would anyone from LATAM or ANZ would be forced to play on worse ping then he could because someone is living outside of that region? That was my main question.

Kelazhur shouldnt be restricted from LATAM region but if he wants to compete he should do it on Brazil server (or whatever they use). In that scenario he wouldnt win that easily and might be considering playing in EU. If COVID passed up to now he could fly to Brasil, or Risky could fly to NZ and compete in "LAN", I dont think anyone would even raise an eyebrow.

GSL rules was always different. Personally, I am against region locking in any case but Risky rule is a bit different. He has no ties with NZ nor with community, thus far he cant be "best NZ has to offer". Imagine in year or two how this rule could be abused by others. Stephano used this to qualify as African representative in WESG, Gabe used this to play in Italian qualifier in same tournament. It's just unfair. This are not teams. I had same complaint in conventional sports.
Also, we cant make rules to students who cannot travel for tournaments, but for those who go for progamer solution.

Well the issue with Starcraft is the totality of the scene isn’t linked together basically ever, although that is sort of happening now.

I agree with you on the WESG examples mentioned. I feel those are examples of the spirit of regional competition being sidestepped for an easier path of competition. Which I feel is especially important in WCG/WESG style competitions. It’s a chance for the best players in specific countries to compete, as opposed to the best players in continents, and that integrity should be maintained.

I mean in relative terms Ireland sucks at Starcraft, we have a few decent GMs and ABomb beat Byong once. So for a WCG/WESG style tournament our local scene would want to send someone who plays in our local scene. If a decent pro, even a great guy like Harstem decided to represent Ireland for that tournament we’d be a bit pissed off.

We’re talking about examples spread over a long period, in a scene which has shifted structure a lot too.

The issue isn’t Stephano being Tunisian or HeroMarine being Italian, it’s that they did so for one tournament and then became French/German again.

So going back to the lack of a linked up scene. In say football, Wilifried Zaha plays for the Ivory Coast where he has family ties. Well that’s who he plays for now, he could probably have got in some England squads but he’s locked to his choice.

Whereas historically in SC it’s been possible to declare a certain nationality for one tournament, then another for another.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
PresenceSc2
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia4032 Posts
October 15 2020 13:49 GMT
#66
On October 15 2020 19:11 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2020 19:08 followZeRoX wrote:
On October 15 2020 18:53 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 15 2020 18:47 followZeRoX wrote:
I am quite shocked with level of elitism of Europeans towards ANZ players.
So, basically, you are all okay with British player, who have better conditions to practice, to force ANZ players to play on certain server, and win just because hes mother has NZ passport. Madness. Buddy, if you arent good enough ti beat all on higher ping or actually live there and compete under same conditions as others, who cares if you quit.
Now we all should drop a tear over this.

It's kind of abuse of region policy.

For example Probe put a pretty good fight against Rogue im group stage. He wasnt bad. Anz should be represented by anz player, period.



So having a citizenship of NZ doesn't make you enough of a representation of ANZ? Who would have thought, I hope this stuff brings over to other sports.

Edit> TBF Risky has more valid reason to play in ANZ than ANY foreigner in the Code S and ANY Korean in foreigner only events. One would thought that the citizenship is enough, but nooooo.


If I understood correctly Risky can force anz players to play on equal ping servers.
Its unfair.
And about citizenship. How many times he has been in NZ? I hope we all get concept of representation here.
I can get Czech passport and citizenship via grandmother. I have never been there but potentially i can represent CZ. How that can be normal?

You do realize that this is happening in every sport? All you have to have is a passport and voila, you can represent another country!

I agreewith the ping stuff. Should be played on the home region unless both players agree to play elsewhere

In sports you play them in person. No lag in person lol

If he wants to take the server disadvantage every game maybe there can be a compromise.
Stephano//HerO//TaeJa//Squirtle//Bomber
stilt
Profile Joined October 2012
France2749 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-15 13:58:31
October 15 2020 13:52 GMT
#67
This conversation makes me uneasy. If Risky has nz citizenship then he has every rights of a nz citizen, I don't think a sc2 forum (or even internet) is a appropriate place to decide if people have to be deprieved of their citizen rights especially for stupid reasons like connections to the country.
Stephano was by far the best represent for Tunisia, actually people here generally likes when copatriot with double nationality chooses to represent them, at least in other sports. And I don't anyway get why Stephano can't be both especially considering sc2 is not institutionalized like other sports.
Some people like my gf are born outside the country, don't have french as their mothertongue and don't go to the country until there are around 12 but hopefully, they still have the same rights as me no matter what is their "connection".

Btw, participing to wcs is not exactly being a direct representative of its country, pretty obvious considering the lack of federation anyway.
followZeRoX
Profile Joined March 2011
Serbia1449 Posts
October 15 2020 14:20 GMT
#68
On October 15 2020 22:14 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2020 21:58 followZeRoX wrote:
On October 15 2020 21:19 WombaT wrote:
On October 15 2020 20:09 followZeRoX wrote:
On October 15 2020 19:11 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 15 2020 19:08 followZeRoX wrote:
On October 15 2020 18:53 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 15 2020 18:47 followZeRoX wrote:
I am quite shocked with level of elitism of Europeans towards ANZ players.
So, basically, you are all okay with British player, who have better conditions to practice, to force ANZ players to play on certain server, and win just because hes mother has NZ passport. Madness. Buddy, if you arent good enough ti beat all on higher ping or actually live there and compete under same conditions as others, who cares if you quit.
Now we all should drop a tear over this.

It's kind of abuse of region policy.

For example Probe put a pretty good fight against Rogue im group stage. He wasnt bad. Anz should be represented by anz player, period.



So having a citizenship of NZ doesn't make you enough of a representation of ANZ? Who would have thought, I hope this stuff brings over to other sports.

Edit> TBF Risky has more valid reason to play in ANZ than ANY foreigner in the Code S and ANY Korean in foreigner only events. One would thought that the citizenship is enough, but nooooo.


If I understood correctly Risky can force anz players to play on equal ping servers.
Its unfair.
And about citizenship. How many times he has been in NZ? I hope we all get concept of representation here.
I can get Czech passport and citizenship via grandmother. I have never been there but potentially i can represent CZ. How that can be normal?

You do realize that this is happening in every sport? All you have to have is a passport and voila, you can represent another country!

I agreewith the ping stuff. Should be played on the home region unless both players agree to play elsewhere


Well ping stuff is main reason i Wrote all that.

But also, because its happening in sports, doesent mean its right. Still, abuse is abuse.

Identity is a complex thing, I’m unsure how big a connection Risky feels to New Zealand, never heard him talk about it but legally he’s got connections to that country. Which counts in al sorts of areas from visas through to representing nations at Olympic level.

The ping issues weren’t exactly fair to force on Oceania players, so tweak the server rules there if needs be.

Assuming I’m reading the proposed changes correctly we’re going from a situation with perceived unfairness (we could honestly just call this section of the structure the ‘Risky rule’), that is quite limited in scope, to one that is more unfair to more people and to the spirit of regional competition.

A notable example being Kelazhur who is born and bred in Brazil, but who is studying in Europe being unable to participate in the Latin America region, unless he travels back for competition periods.

Which isn’t a cheap journey, nor will tournaments necessarily line up with his academic commitments.

So the end result of these changes appears to be that a huge part of the LAM scene for years is restricted from easily playing in that region, which isn’t the strongest field either, just so that a singular New Zealand citizen can’t play in Oceania?

This in addition to Special and other Korean based players not having the same kind of restrictions, because competing in GSL is considered a tour commitment and is exempt.

Ultimately we’re (IMO) ending up with a worse scenario as a solution to a singular individual course, and in a manner that doesn’t reflect all sorts of other real world scenarios as per citizenship rules.


Look, I totally agree with you.
Main problem here was server forcing. Why would anyone from LATAM or ANZ would be forced to play on worse ping then he could because someone is living outside of that region? That was my main question.

Kelazhur shouldnt be restricted from LATAM region but if he wants to compete he should do it on Brazil server (or whatever they use). In that scenario he wouldnt win that easily and might be considering playing in EU. If COVID passed up to now he could fly to Brasil, or Risky could fly to NZ and compete in "LAN", I dont think anyone would even raise an eyebrow.

GSL rules was always different. Personally, I am against region locking in any case but Risky rule is a bit different. He has no ties with NZ nor with community, thus far he cant be "best NZ has to offer". Imagine in year or two how this rule could be abused by others. Stephano used this to qualify as African representative in WESG, Gabe used this to play in Italian qualifier in same tournament. It's just unfair. This are not teams. I had same complaint in conventional sports.
Also, we cant make rules to students who cannot travel for tournaments, but for those who go for progamer solution.

Well the issue with Starcraft is the totality of the scene isn’t linked together basically ever, although that is sort of happening now.

I agree with you on the WESG examples mentioned. I feel those are examples of the spirit of regional competition being sidestepped for an easier path of competition. Which I feel is especially important in WCG/WESG style competitions. It’s a chance for the best players in specific countries to compete, as opposed to the best players in continents, and that integrity should be maintained.

I mean in relative terms Ireland sucks at Starcraft, we have a few decent GMs and ABomb beat Byong once. So for a WCG/WESG style tournament our local scene would want to send someone who plays in our local scene. If a decent pro, even a great guy like Harstem decided to represent Ireland for that tournament we’d be a bit pissed off.

We’re talking about examples spread over a long period, in a scene which has shifted structure a lot too.

The issue isn’t Stephano being Tunisian or HeroMarine being Italian, it’s that they did so for one tournament and then became French/German again.

So going back to the lack of a linked up scene. In say football, Wilifried Zaha plays for the Ivory Coast where he has family ties. Well that’s who he plays for now, he could probably have got in some England squads but he’s locked to his choice.

Whereas historically in SC it’s been possible to declare a certain nationality for one tournament, then another for another.


Itotally agree and you did change my mind a bit. And language barrier prevented me to explain better. Exactly what you said about shifting from one nationality to another is the problem I was writing about. If Risky declared himself as NZ and quit EU competition it would be fairest
followZeRoX
Profile Joined March 2011
Serbia1449 Posts
October 15 2020 14:20 GMT
#69
On October 15 2020 22:52 stilt wrote:
This conversation makes me uneasy. If Risky has nz citizenship then he has every rights of a nz citizen, I don't think a sc2 forum (or even internet) is a appropriate place to decide if people have to be deprieved of their citizen rights especially for stupid reasons like connections to the country.
Stephano was by far the best represent for Tunisia, actually people here generally likes when copatriot with double nationality chooses to represent them, at least in other sports. And I don't anyway get why Stephano can't be both especially considering sc2 is not institutionalized like other sports.
Some people like my gf are born outside the country, don't have french as their mothertongue and don't go to the country until there are around 12 but hopefully, they still have the same rights as me no matter what is their "connection".

Btw, participing to wcs is not exactly being a direct representative of its country, pretty obvious considering the lack of federation anyway.

You did read that esl is divided by regions right?
stilt
Profile Joined October 2012
France2749 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-15 14:55:15
October 15 2020 14:46 GMT
#70
On October 15 2020 23:20 followZeRoX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2020 22:52 stilt wrote:
This conversation makes me uneasy. If Risky has nz citizenship then he has every rights of a nz citizen, I don't think a sc2 forum (or even internet) is a appropriate place to decide if people have to be deprieved of their citizen rights especially for stupid reasons like connections to the country.
Stephano was by far the best represent for Tunisia, actually people here generally likes when copatriot with double nationality chooses to represent them, at least in other sports. And I don't anyway get why Stephano can't be both especially considering sc2 is not institutionalized like other sports.
Some people like my gf are born outside the country, don't have french as their mothertongue and don't go to the country until there are around 12 but hopefully, they still have the same rights as me no matter what is their "connection".

Btw, participing to wcs is not exactly being a direct representative of its country, pretty obvious considering the lack of federation anyway.

You did read that esl is divided by regions right?


Yep but the worst is I am forced to read your and others arguments like the connection to a country and other bs on why Risky shouldn't participe to the DH oc while having nz citizenship.
Totoro1
Profile Joined January 2019
25 Posts
October 15 2020 14:53 GMT
#71
My understanding of the AU/NZ and Risky issue was that Australian players mostly complained they were forced to play on a disadvantageous server when playing against Risky. Their argument was that Risky, playing from Europe, actually had a ping advantage on the Singapore server compared to Australian players.

If I remember correctly, top Australian players didn't want to kick Risky out of the region, but since he participates as a NZ player, they were asking to play on the NZ/AUS server instead of the Singapore server.

Overall, the real problem in this region is not residency, it's that it's too big with too few players. Therefore, there are big ping issues when playing on Singapore vs. Australian servers.
followZeRoX
Profile Joined March 2011
Serbia1449 Posts
October 15 2020 15:27 GMT
#72
On October 15 2020 23:46 stilt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2020 23:20 followZeRoX wrote:
On October 15 2020 22:52 stilt wrote:
This conversation makes me uneasy. If Risky has nz citizenship then he has every rights of a nz citizen, I don't think a sc2 forum (or even internet) is a appropriate place to decide if people have to be deprieved of their citizen rights especially for stupid reasons like connections to the country.
Stephano was by far the best represent for Tunisia, actually people here generally likes when copatriot with double nationality chooses to represent them, at least in other sports. And I don't anyway get why Stephano can't be both especially considering sc2 is not institutionalized like other sports.
Some people like my gf are born outside the country, don't have french as their mothertongue and don't go to the country until there are around 12 but hopefully, they still have the same rights as me no matter what is their "connection".

Btw, participing to wcs is not exactly being a direct representative of its country, pretty obvious considering the lack of federation anyway.

You did read that esl is divided by regions right?


Yep but the worst is I am forced to read your and others arguments like the connection to a country and other bs on why Risky shouldn't participe to the DH oc while having nz citizenship.


No one say that he shouldnt play, but if he decide his region that should be it. And, he should play on their server.
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
October 15 2020 15:53 GMT
#73
if risky is representing NZ and the best server for NZ is AUS, then singapore is irrelevant. i don't get how that happened in the first place. seems like a misunderstanding about what a "region" is. just cuz we say that these qualifiers are broken up into "regions" and one of those "regions" is oceania doesn't necessarily mean that no other regions exist that would make sense to use for ping rules, ie NZ player vs NZ player should be played on AUS even if one of those NZ players is in the UK. this conflation of a qualifier "region" with physical regions of the world doesn't make sense when it comes to ping and server rules. use a little nuance...
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
91matt
Profile Joined March 2013
United Kingdom147 Posts
October 15 2020 16:39 GMT
#74
On October 15 2020 23:53 Totoro1 wrote:
My understanding of the AU/NZ and Risky issue was that Australian players mostly complained they were forced to play on a disadvantageous server when playing against Risky. Their argument was that Risky, playing from Europe, actually had a ping advantage on the Singapore server compared to Australian players.

If I remember correctly, top Australian players didn't want to kick Risky out of the region, but since he participates as a NZ player, they were asking to play on the NZ/AUS server instead of the Singapore server.

Overall, the real problem in this region is not residency, it's that it's too big with too few players. Therefore, there are big ping issues when playing on Singapore vs. Australian servers.


Theres no way risky had a ping advantage in any of those games.
WardiTV
Profile Joined September 2016
565 Posts
October 15 2020 17:55 GMT
#75
The rules used to be they had to play on AUS server and so Risky travelled and played from Korea to reduce ping. People still complained about him playing in the region. It was just louder this time and the yelling of "Ree singapore" stuck a little more (probably rightfully so).

I think the most interesting situation in all of this is that Kelazhur wouldn't be allowed to play LATAM, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about Kela playing the LATAM region, but perhaps that's just because they have their own community etc which I don't hear from a lot. Would love to hear what they say.
Commentator
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55510 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-15 18:11:04
October 15 2020 18:10 GMT
#76
On October 16 2020 02:55 WardiTV wrote:
The rules used to be they had to play on AUS server and so Risky travelled and played from Korea to reduce ping. People still complained about him playing in the region. It was just louder this time and the yelling of "Ree singapore" stuck a little more (probably rightfully so).

I think the most interesting situation in all of this is that Kelazhur wouldn't be allowed to play LATAM, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about Kela playing the LATAM region, but perhaps that's just because they have their own community etc which I don't hear from a lot. Would love to hear what they say.

Kela not being allowed to play LatAm from EU would be surreal since with this ruleset it comes on top of Special being allowed to play LatAm from Korea so long as he qualifies for GSL.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Psychonian
Profile Joined March 2012
United States2322 Posts
October 15 2020 18:13 GMT
#77
On October 16 2020 01:39 91matt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2020 23:53 Totoro1 wrote:
My understanding of the AU/NZ and Risky issue was that Australian players mostly complained they were forced to play on a disadvantageous server when playing against Risky. Their argument was that Risky, playing from Europe, actually had a ping advantage on the Singapore server compared to Australian players.

If I remember correctly, top Australian players didn't want to kick Risky out of the region, but since he participates as a NZ player, they were asking to play on the NZ/AUS server instead of the Singapore server.

Overall, the real problem in this region is not residency, it's that it's too big with too few players. Therefore, there are big ping issues when playing on Singapore vs. Australian servers.


Theres no way risky had a ping advantage in any of those games.


On October 16 2020 02:55 WardiTV wrote:
The rules used to be they had to play on AUS server and so Risky travelled and played from Korea to reduce ping. People still complained about him playing in the region. It was just louder this time and the yelling of "Ree singapore" stuck a little more (probably rightfully so).

I think the most interesting situation in all of this is that Kelazhur wouldn't be allowed to play LATAM, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about Kela playing the LATAM region, but perhaps that's just because they have their own community etc which I don't hear from a lot. Would love to hear what they say.



The thing most people aren't realizing here wrt the singapore server isnt just that it's not aus. There's undersea cable damage between Aus and Singapore that causes Aus players to get inconsistent ping with massive spikes on a regular basis. Their ping can fluctuate between what would be expected, to spikes of several thousand ping. During these spikes, the Aus player is largely unable to do anything for a few seconds. The implications here if this would happen during a fight are pretty obvious.

The Aus players would not be complaining nearly as much as they were if this was not the case. There would probably be some complaints still, because Risky is in effect abusing the way the system works (I don't really blame him for this, he's allowed to do it), and that it is kind of stupid to have them play on a middle ground, but it wouldn't be nearly as severe.

Also, it's pretty disappointing to see people in this thread react to Aus players having any complaint about competitive integrity with "who cares, you're all bad, get good". Firstly, the Aus players are better than a lot of people are giving them credit for (the claim that none would be GM on NA is completely laughable, considering that most of the top players in Aus are 6k+ on KR), and secondly, even if it was true, how is that any way to respond to a complaint about integrity? Should maphackers in gold league not be banned? Sure, if those were Masters players, they'd win against a trash tier hacker, but they're not, and are still being cheated. Hacking is obviously much more extreme than anything happening with the Aus scene, but it's the same general principle.
Trans Rights
Pandemona *
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Charlie Sheens House51481 Posts
October 15 2020 18:13 GMT
#78
Yeah not sure they are quite there with how it should be done but i do applaud and commend them actually listening and trying to do something. I hope they listen to some good ideas and advice here and what the likes of Wax are saying on social media too, so we can get the right outcome.
ModeratorTeam Liquid Football Thread Guru! - Chelsea FC ♥
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-15 18:45:38
October 15 2020 18:43 GMT
#79
wait so he was playing from Singapore on AUS server and it was affecting the players in AUS? That sounds like an issue in itself and if that's literally what the issue was than I have no problem with the rule change. You shouldn't be at a disadvantaged playing on your own server when you live there against someone playing from somewhere else. It's like when FIFA banned soccer stadiums from being too high above sea level. It's not so much that it's explicit cheating but it does create a problematic and in-equal situation. Assuming I'm not misunderstanding anything. Maybe the rule for all servers was to be fair and so it didn't look like he was being selectively punished? doesn't seem to work that way though. Sucks for Kelazhur and GSL stuff is weird but GSL has always been super super weird regarding this stuff. Will wait to see what other changes they announce, don't want to draw conclusions without seeing the whole picture.
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33339 Posts
October 15 2020 18:51 GMT
#80
doh, I guess I should behave on non TL.net social media
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
October 15 2020 19:02 GMT
#81
On October 16 2020 03:10 Elentos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2020 02:55 WardiTV wrote:
The rules used to be they had to play on AUS server and so Risky travelled and played from Korea to reduce ping. People still complained about him playing in the region. It was just louder this time and the yelling of "Ree singapore" stuck a little more (probably rightfully so).

I think the most interesting situation in all of this is that Kelazhur wouldn't be allowed to play LATAM, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about Kela playing the LATAM region, but perhaps that's just because they have their own community etc which I don't hear from a lot. Would love to hear what they say.

Kela not being allowed to play LatAm from EU would be surreal since with this ruleset it comes on top of Special being allowed to play LatAm from Korea so long as he qualifies for GSL.

Should have gone to Korea, since nobody cares about the Korean region.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
October 15 2020 19:08 GMT
#82
On October 16 2020 04:02 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2020 03:10 Elentos wrote:
On October 16 2020 02:55 WardiTV wrote:
The rules used to be they had to play on AUS server and so Risky travelled and played from Korea to reduce ping. People still complained about him playing in the region. It was just louder this time and the yelling of "Ree singapore" stuck a little more (probably rightfully so).

I think the most interesting situation in all of this is that Kelazhur wouldn't be allowed to play LATAM, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about Kela playing the LATAM region, but perhaps that's just because they have their own community etc which I don't hear from a lot. Would love to hear what they say.

Kela not being allowed to play LatAm from EU would be surreal since with this ruleset it comes on top of Special being allowed to play LatAm from Korea so long as he qualifies for GSL.

Should have gone to Korea, since nobody cares about the Korean region.


I am not sure which kind of protection would Korea need.
Theorically allowing lower level korean players to get a shot in Code S? Their biggest issue always was how much stronger top koreans were, not the couple of foreigners qualifying.
Also, this was when there were foreigners in Korea! Right now and in the near future seems likely there will be none.
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-15 19:22:29
October 15 2020 19:11 GMT
#83
On October 16 2020 03:13 Psychonian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2020 01:39 91matt wrote:
On October 15 2020 23:53 Totoro1 wrote:
My understanding of the AU/NZ and Risky issue was that Australian players mostly complained they were forced to play on a disadvantageous server when playing against Risky. Their argument was that Risky, playing from Europe, actually had a ping advantage on the Singapore server compared to Australian players.

If I remember correctly, top Australian players didn't want to kick Risky out of the region, but since he participates as a NZ player, they were asking to play on the NZ/AUS server instead of the Singapore server.

Overall, the real problem in this region is not residency, it's that it's too big with too few players. Therefore, there are big ping issues when playing on Singapore vs. Australian servers.


Theres no way risky had a ping advantage in any of those games.


Show nested quote +
On October 16 2020 02:55 WardiTV wrote:
The rules used to be they had to play on AUS server and so Risky travelled and played from Korea to reduce ping. People still complained about him playing in the region. It was just louder this time and the yelling of "Ree singapore" stuck a little more (probably rightfully so).

I think the most interesting situation in all of this is that Kelazhur wouldn't be allowed to play LATAM, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about Kela playing the LATAM region, but perhaps that's just because they have their own community etc which I don't hear from a lot. Would love to hear what they say.



The thing most people aren't realizing here wrt the singapore server isnt just that it's not aus. There's undersea cable damage between Aus and Singapore that causes Aus players to get inconsistent ping with massive spikes on a regular basis. Their ping can fluctuate between what would be expected, to spikes of several thousand ping. During these spikes, the Aus player is largely unable to do anything for a few seconds. The implications here if this would happen during a fight are pretty obvious.

The Aus players would not be complaining nearly as much as they were if this was not the case. There would probably be some complaints still, because Risky is in effect abusing the way the system works (I don't really blame him for this, he's allowed to do it), and that it is kind of stupid to have them play on a middle ground, but it wouldn't be nearly as severe.

Also, it's pretty disappointing to see people in this thread react to Aus players having any complaint about competitive integrity with "who cares, you're all bad, get good". Firstly, the Aus players are better than a lot of people are giving them credit for (the claim that none would be GM on NA is completely laughable, considering that most of the top players in Aus are 6k+ on KR), and secondly, even if it was true, how is that any way to respond to a complaint about integrity? Should maphackers in gold league not be banned? Sure, if those were Masters players, they'd win against a trash tier hacker, but they're not, and are still being cheated. Hacking is obviously much more extreme than anything happening with the Aus scene, but it's the same general principle.

Are you really serious so hurt you compare a player following rules with a cheater? Seriously? How about you compare him to a Nazi while you're at it. He followed the god damn rules if you didn't get it. Cheaters don't. That's like comparing water to fire!

Edit> you want integrity? Look at the Korean region and its protection in the past 6 years...
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Psychonian
Profile Joined March 2012
United States2322 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-15 19:25:07
October 15 2020 19:23 GMT
#84
On October 16 2020 04:11 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2020 03:13 Psychonian wrote:
On October 16 2020 01:39 91matt wrote:
On October 15 2020 23:53 Totoro1 wrote:
My understanding of the AU/NZ and Risky issue was that Australian players mostly complained they were forced to play on a disadvantageous server when playing against Risky. Their argument was that Risky, playing from Europe, actually had a ping advantage on the Singapore server compared to Australian players.

If I remember correctly, top Australian players didn't want to kick Risky out of the region, but since he participates as a NZ player, they were asking to play on the NZ/AUS server instead of the Singapore server.

Overall, the real problem in this region is not residency, it's that it's too big with too few players. Therefore, there are big ping issues when playing on Singapore vs. Australian servers.


Theres no way risky had a ping advantage in any of those games.


On October 16 2020 02:55 WardiTV wrote:
The rules used to be they had to play on AUS server and so Risky travelled and played from Korea to reduce ping. People still complained about him playing in the region. It was just louder this time and the yelling of "Ree singapore" stuck a little more (probably rightfully so).

I think the most interesting situation in all of this is that Kelazhur wouldn't be allowed to play LATAM, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about Kela playing the LATAM region, but perhaps that's just because they have their own community etc which I don't hear from a lot. Would love to hear what they say.



The thing most people aren't realizing here wrt the singapore server isnt just that it's not aus. There's undersea cable damage between Aus and Singapore that causes Aus players to get inconsistent ping with massive spikes on a regular basis. Their ping can fluctuate between what would be expected, to spikes of several thousand ping. During these spikes, the Aus player is largely unable to do anything for a few seconds. The implications here if this would happen during a fight are pretty obvious.

The Aus players would not be complaining nearly as much as they were if this was not the case. There would probably be some complaints still, because Risky is in effect abusing the way the system works (I don't really blame him for this, he's allowed to do it), and that it is kind of stupid to have them play on a middle ground, but it wouldn't be nearly as severe.

Also, it's pretty disappointing to see people in this thread react to Aus players having any complaint about competitive integrity with "who cares, you're all bad, get good". Firstly, the Aus players are better than a lot of people are giving them credit for (the claim that none would be GM on NA is completely laughable, considering that most of the top players in Aus are 6k+ on KR), and secondly, even if it was true, how is that any way to respond to a complaint about integrity? Should maphackers in gold league not be banned? Sure, if those were Masters players, they'd win against a trash tier hacker, but they're not, and are still being cheated. Hacking is obviously much more extreme than anything happening with the Aus scene, but it's the same general principle.

Are you really serious so hurt you compare a player following rules with a cheater? Seriously? How about you compare him to a Nazi while you're at it. He followed the god damn rules if you didn't get it. Cheaters don't. That's like comparing water to fire!

Edit> you want integrity? Look at the Korean region and its protection in the past 6 years...


Did you miss the part where I said hacking is obviously much more extreme? I'm not using this to say that Risky is a cheater or anything. I'm using it as an intentionally extreme example to say that disregarding an issue with players who aren't top level because they aren't top level is a really bad idea.

As for the Korean region, I completely agree that Korean players have been really fucked over and that there shouldn't be exemptions for players playing in GSL. There's very few top level pros still playing this game in Korea, and those that still give their all deserve better than this.
Trans Rights
robih
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria1086 Posts
October 15 2020 19:55 GMT
#85
and all that because the weakest and tiniest region of the system complained lol
TentativePanda
Profile Joined August 2014
United States800 Posts
October 15 2020 19:58 GMT
#86
Can we merge Oceana/RoA with TW / HK / MO / JP. One seed from those regions combined is more than enough
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
October 15 2020 20:23 GMT
#87
On October 16 2020 04:58 TentativePanda wrote:
Can we merge Oceana/RoA with TW / HK / MO / JP. One seed from those regions combined is more than enough


Taiwan needs its seed.
AusProbe
Profile Joined July 2012
Australia235 Posts
October 16 2020 09:09 GMT
#88
Well this was a fun thread to read
sneakyfox
Profile Joined January 2017
8216 Posts
October 17 2020 13:54 GMT
#89
"I saw what sneakyfox wrote on TL.net and it made me furious" - PartinG
mark_lenders
Profile Joined July 2019
74 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-18 02:26:54
October 18 2020 02:16 GMT
#90
On October 16 2020 00:53 NonY wrote:
if risky is representing NZ and the best server for NZ is AUS, then singapore is irrelevant. i don't get how that happened in the first place


from what i understand, the problem is that risky played as NZ but selected a different subregion listing himself from south-west asia (which is obviously false, as he's actually outside of the region) and this forced singapore server per ESL rules

if a player plays from outside the region against someone from inside the region, the second played should be allowed to choose the server
StasisField
Profile Joined August 2013
United States1086 Posts
October 18 2020 02:44 GMT
#91
On October 18 2020 11:16 mark_lenders wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2020 00:53 NonY wrote:
if risky is representing NZ and the best server for NZ is AUS, then singapore is irrelevant. i don't get how that happened in the first place


from what i understand, the problem is that risky played as NZ but selected a different subregion listing himself from south-west asia (which is obviously false, as he's actually outside of the region) and this forced singapore server per ESL rules

if a player plays from outside the region against someone from inside the region, the second played should be allowed to choose the server

If I remember correctly, players were completely free to ask Risky to play on another server for better ping and (at least in season 1) they never did.
What do you mean Immortals can't shoot up?
RiSkysc2
Profile Joined September 2011
696 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-18 07:48:00
October 18 2020 07:45 GMT
#92
On October 18 2020 11:44 StasisField wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2020 11:16 mark_lenders wrote:
On October 16 2020 00:53 NonY wrote:
if risky is representing NZ and the best server for NZ is AUS, then singapore is irrelevant. i don't get how that happened in the first place


from what i understand, the problem is that risky played as NZ but selected a different subregion listing himself from south-west asia (which is obviously false, as he's actually outside of the region) and this forced singapore server per ESL rules

if a player plays from outside the region against someone from inside the region, the second played should be allowed to choose the server

If I remember correctly, players were completely free to ask Risky to play on another server for better ping and (at least in season 1) they never did.


correct. never did in the last 2 seasons. Piglet asked me this season and we played sg-aus-sg. Someone else also asked me but they have behaved quite badly towards me in the past so i said no. idk if anyone expects me to bend the rules in the other players favour for someone that's been outwardly hostile towards me or not but i didn't find that reasonable. Someone who's been neutral / reasonable though? i have no problem giving them better servers.
Merlinius
Profile Joined September 2010
62 Posts
October 19 2020 07:34 GMT
#93
ESL writes:

...

*There will be two methods of participation with a region:

1. Permanent residency within the region you are located at the time of
2. Citizenship within the region you are located at the time of matches.

...

This effectively would mean that players studying abroad would need to be participating in the region they’re living in during the season, but would not limit them from traveling home if they wish to join their local scene from where they are from. This would also include stipulations for players unable to travel due to GSL commitments, so those in Korea training would be able to maintain both a GSL schedule as well as play in their region of origin.



I seem to be the only one but I don't see how the bold part conforms with 1. or 2.

A player studying abroad is usually there on a temporary student visa (this is the opposite of permanent, so no permanent resident) and is also usually not a citizen. So how can they play "in the region they're living in" (i.e. where they study)?
ChadMann
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia128 Posts
October 19 2020 09:35 GMT
#94
Considering it was a document submitted to ESL that started this debate, I figure its appropriate to share that very document, see below in spoiler tag.

I'm not interested in answer any questions, nor debating our raised concerns, they are the collective concerns of the ANZ/SEA region as we as a community see it, I'm happy that you may have your own opinions, but lets leave it at that.

I do not believe citizens that only have one country to represent should be missing out on their opportunity to compete, however we do not feel an English citizen represents our region. Furthermore, that Australian players, playing from Sydney were FORCED to play on the Singapore server where they get 280ms so that someone playing from England could get 'fair ping'.

+ Show Spoiler +
From the ANZ/SEA StarCraft 2 Community - A region deprived of opportunity and burdened by server issues.

Executive Summary:-

The ANZ/SEA Starcraft 2 Community (the ‘Region’) by overwhelming majority agree that there needs to be significant changes to address the existing and emerging issues with “invaders” within the ESL Professional Circuit.

The ESL has the opportunity to manage and rectify one of the most inconsistent and often overlooked regions in esports.

These changes are required for the region because:

players from the Region have, since inception had limited opportunities to compete and perform in premier tournaments with limited exceptions;
limited opportunities in the Region have meant that players are inherently at a disadvantage for legitimate career progression within Starcraft 2;
due to the Region’s unique circumstances, players irrespective of their locale have always been at a geographical disadvantage;
due to the current ESL rules regarding there is a legitimate concern if the Region issues are not resolved in a satisfactory manner, there is concern that competitors will no longer wish to compete.

(collectively, “the Concerns”)

The representation of the Region submits that the following changes should be implemented to address the Concerns.
The ability to be able to enter a region qualifier should not be available as a matter of convenience, or “at-will” decision to select citizenship by a remote resident player. The principles of regionality (promotion of undeveloped regions, overcoming regional disadvantages) are undermined by players choosing region at whim without consequence. Competitive Region should be dictated by residency as a default, and limiting exceptions to admin discretion and manual application.
The countries that are normally considered to be the Middle East have technological and geographical ties closer to the EU, and have historically in SC2 and currently in other titles (e.g. DOTA2) EU basis for their online server qualifiers. We request that the SWA region be returned to its original grouping with the EU for qualifier regions.



In the following statement, we aim to discuss;

ESL’s rules & objectives with the Regions?
Should a dual-citizen get a ping advantage outside of tournament region
Should Dual-Citizens pick where they play, or play where they live?
ESL Objectives
Our concerns
SWA Region and server selection
Why accommodate a region with zero active players
Forces ANZ players to play all games on Singapore
Singapore Ping issues
Physically, Australian player base is further away from Singapore than Germany is to New York
Issues with routing to the Singapore server, high ping and spikes. Many ISPs route via North America before Singapore
Damage to Australia to Singapore internet cable (SEE HERE)
Why was ANZ/SEA expanded to include Pakistan
Without an active player base, this inclusion only serves the interests of dual-citizens.
It has been shown that Lahore reaches better ping in Europe, than it does to South East Asia.
The impact on the region from the inclusion of dual-citizens
Greater opportunity for Europeans to earn EPT points
Examples from other esports titles and sports
ESL CSGO rules
Dota 2 places middle east with European qualifiers (Pakistan)
Warcraft III ANZ Champs,
Restricted to ANZ. WC3 has considerably less ANZ players, and get their own bracket to play. Smaller region qualifiers
Recommendations
Play in country of residence
Play with ping advantage and server selection of player within home server
Ensure no issue to players living in Korea


Section 1: The ESL’s Objective and Rules with regional qualifiers

ESL’s Objective:
While this is unknown to us as consumers. ESL’s public position is :

1. “To create more opportunity for progression and participation than any other sport.”
2. “Grassroots amateur cups and matchmaking systems, defining the path from zero to hero as short as possible”
3. “We believe in developing local scenes that allow entry into global competition - and inspire them to become masters of esports.

It is the position of the SEA community that the ESL’s current public position is inconsistent with their actions within the Oceania region. This is because:

The current system does not create more opportunity for progression and participation within the Region’s Starcraft 2 community. Rather, it creates controversy that an outside observer would not reasonably expect to be present.

The system does not effectively achieve the ESL’s second objective for the Region. In the EPT’s current form, it is now more difficult to move from “zero to hero” as there are several mechanisms currently in place that prevent the ‘grassroots players’ to achieve ‘hero’ status within the Starcraft 2 ecosystem.

The ESL’s actions through its management of the EPT has and continues to hinder local growth, whilst simultaneously denying global opportunities to its players. It is clear that the local scene is currently suffering from a lack of opportunity in global competition. Since the changes to the EPT system, there is currently only one spot available for the Region. The Region risks becoming a target of foreign “raiders” who have no natural connection to the scene in the Region, seeking to leave their local ecosystem for additional opportunities at global success.

Whilst we accept that there are reasons for the international rules that are currently in place, it is clear through the sequence of events that have occurred within the Region, that the current rules are not sufficient and certainly do not meet the ESL’s current objectives. The reasons for which are stepped out below.


ESL’s Rules

The current rules state that the requirements for participation in a region are as follows:

Passport holders who are not currently residing within the region they compete in. This ruling is historic to StarCraft and we do not intend to change it. In order to understand our perspective, the lens required is to look at non-Korean players currently residing in South Korea. These players all hold passports from multiple regions they do not currently reside in, and if we were to change our ruling, we’d be required to remove this group from participating in their home region.

We will continue to accommodate participation of passport holders and encourage fair server conditions between competitors. For additionally transparency, we operate with two rules when evaluating conditions for players:

No player playing from inside their home region will ever be put at a ping disadvantage against someone outside the region.
No player playing from inside their home region will ever be forced onto a server that would not also be a valid choice for players both residing inside the region.

The first point and the second point is to prevent that players inside the region ever have to play with an unacceptable ping, or more precisely a ping that would not happen if all players were inside their home region. At the same time, we will still use that server which under these conditions minimises the disadvantage for the player abroad.
Section 2: Key Concerns

Ping Advantage

“The first point and the second point is to prevent that players inside the region ever have to play with an unacceptable ping”

Dual citizens receiving a ping advantage

Currently there is no position from the ESL on what is considered acceptable ping. Therefore, the Region’s native players are required to supplement their ping to service players that exist outside the competition’s natural jurisdiction. This creates an issue of equity whereby players from the Region are on less than favourable terms because they are required to play on Singapore to compete against players from Europe.

This is clearly inconsistent with the ESL’s position, which is to focus on players that are currently inside the competition’s natural jurisdiction. The community has collated some data from its competitors that indicate the majority of Australian and New Zealand players are able to achieve between 100ms and 300ms ping to the Singapore server. Most of the complaints raised by players in the Region is that the server consistently spikes their ping up to 1000ms. This is due to the NA centric routing preference for nearly all domestic ISP’s, and minimal capacity for domestic ISP’s to route directly to Singapore cost effectively.

In circumstances where the ESL has determined that players inside the Region should not “ever have to play with an unacceptable ping”, it is remarkable for the ESL to allow participation from EU based players to the Region. In almost all circumstances, it is a vastly poorer experience for players in the Region to play on the Singapore server and there is very little recourse that would allow them to compete in favourable server terms.

This decision has been subject to some controversy within the community and now that there are additional raiders entering into the Region, the position is untenable. A clear decision from the ESL regarding servers needs to be made so that there is no ambiguity or undue bias is required.

It should be self-evident that players from the EU should not be permitted to play in the Region, as most esports are unsuitable to be played cross-continent. We appreciate that this is a unique situation within the esports ecosystem and in some circumstances it functions well, we do not consider that it is appropriate for the EPT. A definitive decision and clear indications on the appropriate servers for players native to the Region need to be made so as to allow players:

Certainty on where the matches will be played;
Consistency on what they can expect from the matches;
Confidence in the decision making process of ESL

“No player playing from inside their home region will ever be forced onto a server that would not also be a valid choice for players both residing inside the region.”

In light of the submission above, it is apparent that the ESL and the EPT has either:

Failed to consider the definition of ‘valid choice’; or
Considered ‘valid choice’ on the basis of availability, and not viability.

In either case, it is readily apparent that the Singapore server is not a ‘valid’ choice for a significant portion of competitive players residing in the Region. It would be more appropriate in the circumstances for a definitive ruling on which server is to host games.


Dual citizens picking where they play
Our second concern is the choice of region, @ApolloSC2 states in his tweet on the 5th of June 2020 (see here) that

“Our primary focus is residency for choice of region.” Which suggests, players who have a choice of region, are to focus on their residency. The European players that have dual-citizenship and are playing within the ANZ/SEA qualifiers are electing to use a region outside of their residence. Again, a contradiction of comments made by ESL.

With respect, there is no room in the interpretation of the Rules that is consistent with Apollo’s position and it is demonstrably untrue. This does not mean that there is not an intention for residency to be a primary focus, but, as outlined above, the rules for residency were notably drafted for ‘exceptions’. If the ESL’s position favoured residency, then there would be more strict requirements (such as those outlined below) for participation.


Key Ping Concerns

SWA Region
The SWA region rules dictate that players from that region can play all of their games on the Singapore server, which gives those players a distinct advantage against Australian and New Zealand competitors To date, no active participants in the Region reside in the SWA Region. Rather, the SWA Region service is used as a means by “raiders” to achieve a bare minimum, playable ping from Europe or Korea. The SWA region does not naturally include Europe or Korea, as these areas both have native competitions available for the ESL. Whilst we appreciate that the ESL may take the position that this was an “unforeseeable” consequence, it is difficult to reconcile this position when it has been exploited by “raiders” over an extended period of time.

Singapore Server ping

While most players within the SEA region have a good connection to Singapore, this is not a concern for them. However, the connection to the Singapore server for Australian players is not a stable connection. This point is outlined previously. This is ameliorated by having at least one game in a best of 3 (in SEA vs ANZ) on the Sydney server under current rules. SWA region permits the player to have all three games on Singapore server, which results in any ANZ player potentially playing on worse ping than the player outside of the Region.


The impact on the region of Dual-citizens

Whilst we understand that there have been dominant players within the Oceana Starcraft 2 community, we are concerned that the current system does not positively contribute to the development of the Region.We refer to the likes of KingKong, TargA and other players of high quality that have enjoyed competition in the Region. The key distinction with players such as KingKong and TargA, is that although they were not from the Region, they lived and participated in local and national events. In short, they contributed their time and their effort into developing our local community.

The players that have come into our region are from England and domiciled in the United Kingdom. This impact has severely disrupted the native ecosystem that has developed around Starcraft 2 and not for the better.

Unfortunately, instead of providing healthy contributions towards the community, raiders have taken opportunities that would normally be awarded to successful players in the Region. Strong players such as Risky, who has achieved moderate success in Europe currently make local players feel like they will never be afforded the full opportunity to succeed.

The raiders, including Risky, can practice on low ping against the best players outside of Korea. By living in Europe, it allows competitors more opportunities to compete and to earn a reasonable living through Starcraft 2. The fact the few opportunities given to players in the Region are now being taken by players that should, for all intents and purposes, be considered Europeans has caused many players within the Region to quit, citing how hard it is within our region. European players are taking opportunities from domestic players, and it is very difficult, given opportunities to practice, for domestic players to catch up to Europeans, especially when qualifiers to compete outside of the region are being won by Europeans.

Greater opportunity for EU based players to earn EPT points
Perhaps the most prolific example of abuse of the EPT system is that Risky earnt the 1st seed and direct invite into the season 1 tournament via EPT points earnt from a tournament in Europe that would not be possible for players within the Region to attend. This gave him a point advantage for the qualifiers and seeding. The fact players within the Region have minimal opportunity to earn EPT points puts domestic players at a disadvantage that cannot be overcome without intervention from the ESL.





Section 3 Examples from other esports
These rules are vastly different than to the rules applied to SC2. And confirm a basis for our concerns.

ESL CSGO Rules
CSGO Ruleset (SEE HERE) states in Exhibit A, section 2.1 Home Country/Region:
“A Player’s home country is the country where his main place of residence is. “

https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/8/8b/ESL_One_CSGO_Rulebook_2019.pdf
“2.7.5 Country/Region of Qualifiers
Qualifiers for Intel Extreme Masters, including invitations, are usually restricted to a country, a region or a sub-region (we will call it region for the rest of the paragraph). Exceptions from this rule are possible, if ESL can be convinced that there is a valid reason why the team would be unable to attend all required parts of the qualifier in
their home region and why the team should be allowed play the qualifier in the region suggested by the team.This has to be requested actively by the team, and separately for each individual case.Examples for such reasons arei)There are no qualifiers in the home region(s) for the team and the team is willing to travel to the region of the qualifier to play it.ii)The team is taking part in (a) competition(s) in a region other than their home region(s) and has matches to play there before and after and in such close timely proximity to the qualifier(s) in their home region(s) that travelling back for that qualifier(s) would be unreasonable.iii)The team is staying in another region for good reason (esports-related) for a prolonged time that spans over the time of the qualifier for the their home region and it can be clearly shown that this condition has not been created to be able to take part in a qualifier that might be easier to qualify from.For all rule purposes, if such an exception has been granted, the respective region will be considered that team's home region for the entire event or (if that happens before the end of the event) until the conditions for the exception expire.”

“2.7.7 Physical location during online matchesOnline matches have to be played from the region of the competition or qualifier they belong to. An exception to this rule is only possible by written constent from ESL. It can only be granted if the participant can explain and prove having a valid reason to play from elsewhere. Valid reasons could be similar to the ones from ( 2.7.5 )”

ESL Rainbow 6 Siege Ruleset:
(https://pro.eslgaming.com/r6/proleague/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Rulebook_Pro_League.pdf)
“2.8.4 Physical location during online matches Online matches have to be played from the region a player belongs to. An exception to this rule is only possible by written consent from ESL. It can only be granted if the participant can explain and prove having a valid reason to play from elsewhere, and if his ping is below 130ms.”

Valve and DOTA2
https://blog.dota2.com/2018/11/regional-qualifiers/

Valve disqualified Pain Gaming for flying in just for the qualifier and then leaving again "We walked them through our reasoning, and what the purpose of regional qualifiers are, and why we thought that neither we nor fans would consider them an actual South American team."

Section 4 Our Recommendations

It has been long assumed that the objective of region locking and separation of qualifiers, is to;
Give local players and fans a representative to cheer for, developing interest for that region in following the event
Allow players within that region to develop and improve to a point they can challenge on the world stage.
We the fans and local players do not cheer for English citizens to represent our region. This should not come as a surprise, given the ESL concessions already made for the exceptional players currently residing in Korea. We do not feel it allows local players the opportunity to improve and grow within their region, or provide them with any sort of relevant recognition. These players are already supported by their home region, England.

Our recommendation for ESL’s consideration is that dual-citizenship holders play in the region of their country of primary residence. That is;
If a player has English and Australian dual citizenship and they are living in England, they play within European qualifiers (& vice versa).
If a player is living in Korea with only Brazilian Citizenship, they play in Latin America qualifiers.
A player from Australia residing in England with only Australian citizenship can play in SEA/ANZ qualifiers.
An English Citizen, living in Korea, plays in European qualifiers.
A Dual-citizen (England & Australia) living in Korea, play within the country of their primary residence.

Our intent is to allow for international travel and training, but avoid “region of convenience” decisions that adversely affect other regions.

We hope this ensures no issues for players hoping to travel to Korea and train and acknowledge that training brings talent and new skill back to the home region when that player returns and is a benefit to all regions.

Finally, some of the abuse of the current issues around residency have been exacerbated by the aggregation of new countries via “Rest of Asia'' (the ‘RoA’) status into the traditionally ANZ & SEA regions. This has created a frankenstein region that spans an actual third of the globe, and has created impractical situations.

Based on “best case” latency measurements Lahore in Pakistan is 50% closer to European servers than to South East Asian based servers. Historically players in neighbouring India had to apply for special exemption to play in the SEA/ANZ qualifiers, but with the current rule set this “apply by exemption” has become an exploitable default.

It is our final recommendation that countries in RoA that demonstrate more favourable ping be connected with other regions, such as Europe. While we understand that no country should be added to the Korean Region, due to the high level of competition within Korea, this can not be the same consideration for countries such as Pakistan. We determine that India is the border of any RoA region, as its ping is mildly better to Aus/SG than it is to EU. Whereas Pakistan’s ping is better to the EU.

We thank you for your time in considering our concerns.
#1 ANZ SC2 Team Manager https://twitter.com/ChadMannSC2
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17971 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-19 13:19:22
October 19 2020 13:15 GMT
#95
On October 14 2020 21:21 dbRic1203 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 20:36 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 14 2020 18:27 dbRic1203 wrote:
On October 14 2020 17:06 sneakyfox wrote:

https://twitter.com/ApolloSC2/status/1315675529916420101


This part is just dumb. Either foreigners who want to play in GSL have to forfeit "their" DH Major or leave it as it is. But this is just stupid.

I don't understand what you think is dumb?

I am a citizen in EU, if I lived in korea/USA/wherever, I could still compete in EU region but I would have to play on their server and therefore be at a ping disadvantage. I makes sense, no matter if I am competing in GSL or not.

It makes total sense to me, they should of course take away this whole korea regionlock thing but that is a separate old issue that this change doesn't effect in the least.

Sounds like good changes to me. I don't really understand Riskys situation but if he feels forced to retire if the rules are fair then there isn't much to do about that. It is sad he lives in a place were he is at a disadvantage but that handicap shouldn't be forced onto other players due to a technicality in the rules.

Edit: Obviously I havent understood the rules properly, after re-reading it seems only GSL players can play in regions they are not located in at the time of playing. That does feel a bit iffy.

Yep, the way you descibe it, was the way it has been this year. For next year they want to change it, so that beeing a citicen, e.g. beeing legally allowed to vote in that country, fight in their army and represent them in national teams, is not enough to play as a representative from that country.
Instead you have to fly there, no matter if it s an online or offline tournament. UNLESS you play GSL. Wich is just wrong either, they leave it as it is, or they include foreigners in korea.


I don't get this change at all.

I understand Kelazhur, Risky, etc. should not be able to "cheat" the system and request a server that disadvantages the home player. However, Kelazhur should be allowed to participate in LATAM "as if" he was playing from Brazil (Brazil is vast, so because he doesn't have an address he gets counted as if he's in the capital, Brasilia) and the same for Risky, who gets a location choice of "Wellington". The best server for someone playing from Australia and Risky can then never be Singapore (which was silly). But perhaps the best server for someone playing from Singapore and Risky could then be Singapore (or Risky can choose to forfeit his server choice advantage, as playing on Sydney server would make no sense for either player). I guess the only really weird situation that would still occur is Kelazhur vs Special when they are both abroad, but forced to play on... I dunno. Does Colombia have a server? Whereas US Central or US West would make the most sense.
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