EPTGSL
DreamHack Masters NA
DreamHack Masters Season Finals
IEM Katowice 2020
2019 WCS Global Finals
Which of these "Premier Events" are the most prestigious?
Which "Premier Events" are the most prestigious?
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
StuDToSs
116 Posts
GSL DreamHack Masters NA DreamHack Masters Season Finals IEM Katowice 2020 2019 WCS Global Finals Which of these "Premier Events" are the most prestigious? | ||
|
llllllllllIIIIIlllll
Korea (North)26 Posts
| ||
|
lesmissilerable
3 Posts
On September 15 2020 11:34 llllllllllIIIIIlllll wrote: IEM Katowice and WCS Global Finals are the most prestigious because they have the most money in prize pool $$ and it is a global event which features top players from foreign and korean regions yea and compare this 2 event to Dreamhack Masters NA... how is DH Masters NA a premier event? not even close... | ||
|
yubo56
690 Posts
On September 15 2020 11:34 llllllllllIIIIIlllll wrote: IEM Katowice and WCS Global Finals are the most prestigious because they have the most money in prize pool $$ and it is a global event which features top players from foreign and korean regions GSL has traditionally been considered to be even more prestigious, due to the level of competition (even though the prize pool is smaller). This was because Koreans were head and shoulders above all non-Koreans, to the degree that a tournament with the top 16 Koreans was harder to win than 8 Koreans and 8 non-Koreans. Additionally, GSL takes place over many weeks, which gives players more time to prepare for their particular opponent, unlike IEM and Global Finals, which play many matches each day over the span of a few days. Nowadays, GSL is much diminished from what it was before, and I think most people won't claim it's that much harder to win than the top EU tournaments, and Koreans say they have their sights set on the global events as well. But you might still hear pro-GSL advocates from players who haven't followed the scene in a while | ||
|
Anc13nt
1557 Posts
In terms of difficulty to win though, GSL Super Tournament and GSL vs the World are not too far off from the above but they don't pay as well and don't have as much history so they aren't as prestigious. WESG has a lot of money on the line but it is not as difficult of a tournament because they have too many players outside NA, EU and Korea. On another note, in the past, I would have said winning a European WCS Circuit tournament is comparable in prestige to winning a tournament like HSC or Assembly Summer 2019 but I am not sure anymore because I think Clem, Serral and Reynor are all top 10 players now. More specifically, I think Rogue, Serral and Reynor are the top 3 players atm. So I agree with the above poster that winning EU Circuit tournament is not too far off in difficulty from winning a GSL at this point tbh. | ||
|
QOGQOG
834 Posts
On September 15 2020 12:16 Anc13nt wrote: For me, I would say IEM WC = WCS Global Finals > GSL and these are the most important tournaments. In terms of difficulty to win though, GSL Super Tournament and GSL vs the World are not too far off from the above but they don't pay as well and don't have as much history so they aren't as prestigious. WESG has a lot of money on the line but it is not as difficult of a tournament because they have too many players outside NA, EU and Korea. On another note, in the past, I would have said winning a European WCS Circuit tournament is comparable in prestige to winning a tournament like HSC or Assembly Summer 2019 but I am not sure anymore because I think Clem, Serral and Reynor are all top 10 players now. More specifically, I think Rogue, Serral and Reynor are the top 3 players atm. So I agree with the above poster that winning EU Circuit tournament is not too far off in difficulty from winning a GSL at this point tbh. Not really. While Serral, Reynor, and Clem might all be very strong, in GSL there are way more potential winners/championship tier players. Probably a dozen of them who could win a season without getting too outlandish or unlikely. Whereas Europe, there are basically two (or, very recently, three) actual contenders. Winning a GSL means beating at least a half dozen top tier players, an EU tournament, it's maybe two. Plus GSL is a longer tournament with serious prep time, making even non-contenders very dangerous (see: Zoun, Prince, etc.). | ||
|
BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
GSL Code S Blizzcon/IEM DreamHack | ||
|
vyzion
308 Posts
| ||
|
dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
It s even debatable if DH Masters EU would be up there with the biggest of tournaments, you stated. So not including it is absolutly fine. But adding the NA version instead can t be right. In terms of Prestige I would rate them as follows: GSL BlizzCon/ Katowice DH Masters Season Finals GSL ST DH Masters EU Doyou Cup/ HSC/ TSL / Kubo etc... DH Masters NA/ LatAm/ CH DH Masters TW DH Masters OCE | ||
|
Slydie
1927 Posts
On September 15 2020 13:28 QOGQOG wrote: Not really. While Serral, Reynor, and Clem might all be very strong, in GSL there are way more potential winners/championship tier players. Probably a dozen of them who could win a season without getting too outlandish or unlikely. Whereas Europe, there are basically two (or, very recently, three) actual contenders. Winning a GSL means beating at least a half dozen top tier players, an EU tournament, it's maybe two. Plus GSL is a longer tournament with serious prep time, making even non-contenders very dangerous (see: Zoun, Prince, etc.). GSL is just very different. I would give foreigners a very slim chance to win it, as they are not as used to the format with extensive prep-time for each opponent and would have to play abroad. The Scarlett vs Dark series is maybe the best example of how it can be done, but I don't think it is possible to fight through that many strong players relying on such gimmicks. Likewise, the Koreans will not have an easy time winning vs Reynor and Serral in an EU offline event either, but the overall level is obviously lower. How Clem in his current form matches with Koreans remains to be seen. | ||
|
algue
France1436 Posts
On September 15 2020 12:03 yubo56 wrote: Nowadays, GSL is much diminished from what it was before, and I think most people won't claim it's that much harder to win than the top EU tournaments, and Koreans say they have their sights set on the global events as well. But you might still hear pro-GSL advocates from players who haven't followed the scene in a while I won't claim that it's not diminished compared to what it was before but the GSL's format in itself makes it the most prestigious tournament around. From a pro player perspective you dedicate months of your potentially short lived career for a tournament with a consistently high level of play where there is very little room for mistake. Compare this to the Blizzcon tournament or IEM Katowice, since those tournaments only last for a few days it's too bad if you're eliminated quickly but at least you didn't waste weeks/months taking part in those. | ||
|
Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On September 15 2020 16:38 dbRic1203 wrote: Is this a troll post? It s even debatable if DH Masters EU would be up there with the biggest of tournaments, you stated. So not including it is absolutly fine. But adding the NA version instead can t be right. In terms of Prestige I would rate them as follows: GSL BlizzCon/ Katowice DH Masters Season Finals GSL ST DH Masters EU Doyou Cup/ HSC/ TSL / Kubo etc... DH Masters NA/ LatAm/ CH DH Masters TW DH Masters OCE i think in terms of what pros want to win (from some interviews I've read from a long time), my impression is that Blizzcon is the best, then GSL, then IEM WC and WESG is up there too because of the prize pool. But yeah in terms of raw difficulty, the highest level is probably GSL, then IEM WC, then GSL Super tournament and then Blizzcon. Dreamhack EU is catching up in terms of difficulty but while the top 3-4 EU players are around as strong as top Koreans, there is a still a gap between Koreans and foreigners on average. That is why Serral and Reynor have been winning virtually everything in the EU Circuit ever since the start of 2018. I wouldn't be too shocked if both of them combined won something like 30%+ of the Korean/international tournaments but definitely not like 100% as with the european scene. | ||
|
dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On September 15 2020 17:50 Anc13nt wrote: i think in terms of what pros want to win (from some interviews I've read from a long time), my impression is that Blizzcon is the best, then GSL, then IEM WC and WESG is up there too because of the prize pool. But yeah in terms of raw difficulty, the highest level is probably GSL, then IEM WC, then GSL Super tournament and then Blizzcon. Dreamhack EU is catching up in terms of difficulty but while the top 3-4 EU players are around as strong as top Koreans, there is a still a gap between Koreans and foreigners on average. That is why Serral and Reynor have been winning virtually everything in the EU Circuit ever since the start of 2018. I wouldn't be too shocked if both of them combined won something like 30%+ of the Korean/international tournaments but definitely not like 100% as with the european scene. Absolutly. I put BlizzCon and KAto on same level as Katowice is replacing BlizzCon as the Global Finals. In WCS era it was obviously higher up. I completly forgot about WESG, as it was cancelled this year and I also realy dislike price pool distributions, where not everyone in the main event is paid and the winner gets more than 50% of the entire price pool. In terms of Skill, I see Reynor and Serral on the same level as top 4 Kr and Clem even with the other GSL Contenders. All other foreigners* would probably struggle to make Ro16 atm, whil it wouldn t be a suprise to see 2-3 of them making it, just like Special and Scarlett in the past few years. *those would be: Special, Scarlett, Neeb, Heromarine, Showtime and maybe Time who would actually have a good shot in making it Ro16 with a bit of luck and at least another 10 or so, who would have a decent shot in Qualifing for Ro24, but would most likely fail (players like Astrea, Drogo, Lambo, uThermal, Mlord and so on) | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland26168 Posts
When Korea had like 45 of the world’s top 50 players I would have had GSL as the most prestigious Katowice then became the top dog for me when this shifted a little and also how qualifiers worked. Basically all the world’s best at that moment made it, whereas Blizzcon you’d end up with early qualifiers slumping hard by the time it came around and hot players not getting the points to make it in. Below that not too sure. WESG has a lot of money but misses a lot of the world’s best. The Korean qualifier for it is more cutthroat than the actual tournament. Dreamhack Season Finals would be up a lot higher than they are in my mind currently when they move to being offline at some stage. | ||
|
Harris1st
Germany7001 Posts
GSL Blizzcon World Championships Katowice Other International offline events (Dreamhack, Assembly, HSC, ...) Foreign only events Now: Katowice World Championships GSL/ Dreamhack finals (if Dreamhack finals were offline, I'd put it above GSL. But since it's not GSL is a smidge higher) Dreamhack EU ESL Gabe weekly Dreamhack other regions | ||
|
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Yes, I put the open HSC over Blizzcon. Players may see it differentluy edit> offline > online, but was too lazy to incorporate this into that edit2> criterias opens have the biggest skill in them(usually), then offline eliminates ping issues(kinda, looking at nonexisting LAN mode), then more skill dominates less skill (Code S still has more better players than foreigner only tournaments). Blizzcon lost mostly because the winner of the IEM can lose the form but will occupy theplace over currently better player. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland26168 Posts
On September 15 2020 22:04 deacon.frost wrote: IEM Katowice Open(considering it will be changed IIRC) > GSL > (stay at) HSC > Blizzcon/new IEM Katowice > Korean friendly tournaments > Foreigner only tournaments Yes, I put the open HSC over Blizzcon. Players may see it differentluy edit> offline > online, but was too lazy to incorporate this into that edit2> criterias opens have the biggest skill in them(usually), then offline eliminates ping issues(kinda, looking at nonexisting LAN mode), then more skill dominates less skill (Code S still has more better players than foreigner only tournaments). Blizzcon lost mostly because the winner of the IEM can lose the form but will occupy theplace over currently better player. Those are largely my criteria but HSC is a bit high no? It’s the players’ more casual, sociable tournament. We still see some great Starcraft but I never get the sense it’s a gigantic deal to most of the players | ||
|
Elentos
55560 Posts
On September 15 2020 22:04 deacon.frost wrote: IEM Katowice Open(considering it will be changed IIRC) > GSL > (stay at) HSC > Blizzcon/new IEM Katowice > Korean friendly tournaments > Foreigner only tournaments Yes, I put the open HSC over Blizzcon. Players may see it differentluy edit> offline > online, but was too lazy to incorporate this into that edit2> criterias opens have the biggest skill in them(usually), then offline eliminates ping issues(kinda, looking at nonexisting LAN mode), then more skill dominates less skill (Code S still has more better players than foreigner only tournaments). Blizzcon lost mostly because the winner of the IEM can lose the form but will occupy theplace over currently better player. You are probably the only person in this universe who thinks HSC is more prestigious than Blizzcon. More fun, more entertaining I'll give you and HSC has often brought in good player pools too. But prestige is not even an afterthought there. Prestige always also has to do with presentation etc. and the champion of Blizzcon was the World Champion. That shouldn't even be close. | ||
Poopi
France12906 Posts
Note that winning two 0.5 tournaments doesn't equal winning a 1.0 tournament. BlizzCon = 1.25 GSL IEM = 1.2 GSL GSL = 1.0 GSL Super Tournament = 0.8 GSL GSL vs The World = 0.75 GSL Dreamhack Masters Season Finals = 0.70 GSL (because online) WESG = 0.65 GSL Dreamhack EU / WCS EU = 0.6 GSL DH NA / other regions / etc. = < 0.33 GSL | ||
|
royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
| ||
Waxangel
United States33495 Posts
| ||
|
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 15 2020 22:55 Waxangel wrote: All the interviews I've read/heard in the modern era lead me to believe money is THE primary determinant of prestige From the players perspective it's obvious, fans may have a different view  I thought this is the latter one.On September 15 2020 22:13 WombaT wrote: Those are largely my criteria but HSC is a bit high no? It’s the players’ more casual, sociable tournament. We still see some great Starcraft but I never get the sense it’s a gigantic deal to most of the players Take tries to get there the best players in the business. Cannot say that about Blizzcon. Like I don't say that HSC is tripple the Blizzcon, si more like a difference between 1,05 and 1,06. But in my eyes it is skillwise better tourney. It;s my criterias ) | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland26168 Posts
On September 15 2020 23:08 deacon.frost wrote: From the players perspective it's obvious, fans may have a different view I thought this is the latter one.Take tries to get there the best players in the business. Cannot say that about Blizzcon. Like I don't say that HSC is tripple the Blizzcon, si more like a difference between 1,05 and 1,06. But in my eyes it is skillwise better tourney. It;s my criterias )When half the players are hungover? | ||
|
Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On September 15 2020 23:08 deacon.frost wrote: From the players perspective it's obvious, fans may have a different view I thought this is the latter one.Take tries to get there the best players in the business. Cannot say that about Blizzcon. Like I don't say that HSC is tripple the Blizzcon, si more like a difference between 1,05 and 1,06. But in my eyes it is skillwise better tourney. It;s my criterias )lol you hear about players wanting to make it to Blizzcon, nobody ever brings up HSC. That should tell you enough about the difference in levels. | ||
|
BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On September 15 2020 22:55 Waxangel wrote: All the interviews I've read/heard in the modern era lead me to believe money is THE primary determinant of prestige I probably havent nearly as much as you have, but i think money is the primary determinant of which tournaments they want to play, not really prestige. For example, recently in I believe it was the Code S S2 QA segment, Maru was asked something along the lines if he'd rather win IEM or another Code S. He said IEM. Then the interviewer said if money wasnt a factor - Maru said Code S. I think that's what prestige means. | ||
|
Harris1st
Germany7001 Posts
On September 16 2020 04:07 BerserkSword wrote: I probably havent nearly as much as you have, but i think money is the primary determinant of which tournaments they want to play, not really prestige. For example, recently in I believe it was the Code S S2 QA segment, Maru was asked something along the lines if he'd rather win IEM or another Code S. He said IEM. Then the interviewer said if money wasnt a factor - Maru said Code S. I think that's what prestige means. Hmm... there is also a difference who you are asking I guess. Like Koreans players care more about Korean fans and therefore more for GSL. Foreigners are more like "Yes GSL would be awesome, but I really want IEM / Blizzcon" HSC is awesome and this reads like an insult TBH | ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4958 Posts
On September 15 2020 12:03 yubo56 wrote: GSL has traditionally been considered to be even more prestigious, due to the level of competition (even though the prize pool is smaller). This was because Koreans were head and shoulders above all non-Koreans, to the degree that a tournament with the top 16 Koreans was harder to win than 8 Koreans and 8 non-Koreans. Additionally, GSL takes place over many weeks, which gives players more time to prepare for their particular opponent, unlike IEM and Global Finals, which play many matches each day over the span of a few days. Nowadays, GSL is much diminished from what it was before, and I think most people won't claim it's that much harder to win than the top EU tournaments, and Koreans say they have their sights set on the global events as well. But you might still hear pro-GSL advocates from players who haven't followed the scene in a while This first paragraph is correct but in present tense. Second paragraph is just not true. Even if GSl has been diminishing, there is still too much of a gap. | ||
|
Harris1st
Germany7001 Posts
On September 15 2020 12:03 yubo56 wrote: GSL has traditionally been considered to be even more prestigious, due to the level of competition (even though the prize pool is smaller). This was because Koreans were head and shoulders above all non-Koreans, to the degree that a tournament with the top 16 Koreans was harder to win than 8 Koreans and 8 non-Koreans. Additionally, GSL takes place over many weeks, which gives players more time to prepare for their particular opponent, unlike IEM and Global Finals, which play many matches each day over the span of a few days. Nowadays, GSL is much diminished from what it was before, and I think most people won't claim it's that much harder to win than the top EU tournaments, and Koreans say they have their sights set on the global events as well. But you might still hear pro-GSL advocates from players who haven't followed the scene in a while On September 16 2020 15:55 Argonauta wrote: This first paragraph is correct but in present tense. Second paragraph is just not true. Even if GSl has been diminishing, there is still too much of a gap. First paragraph is correct in past tense. Are you honestly telling us that you think a tournament with Serral and Reynor in it is easier to win than a tournament with Koreans 9th to 16th ( Zoun, Armani, Dream, Solar, ....? ) lol Second paragraph. Yes GSL is still much harder to win than a top EU tournament | ||
|
RPR_Tempest
Australia7798 Posts
Then IEM = GSL side-events like GSL vs The World or Super Tournament Then other premiers then Homestory Cup | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland26168 Posts
On September 16 2020 15:38 Harris1st wrote: Hmm... there is also a difference who you are asking I guess. Like Koreans players care more about Korean fans and therefore more for GSL. Foreigners are more like "Yes GSL would be awesome, but I really want IEM / Blizzcon" HSC is awesome and this reads like an insult TBH Awesome it be, the atmosphere and the general level is high don’t get me wrong. It’s relative lack of prestige is a big part of the players being able to relax and contributing to the unique atmosphere of the event. | ||
|
dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
Wich isn t a problem in my eyes, though, as it is meant to be more relaxed and social. | ||
|
neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
| ||
|
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
Blizzcon is the most prestigious because it's the official world championship. It doesn't matter which tournament is harder. Then after Blizzcon, comes GSL which is the most difficult tournament. It always has and always will be. The level of play on the gsl is on average much higher than any other. It's a much longer tournament. It requires more strategy and preparation. Most players are better. Other tournaments have foreigners which aren't as good as korean, except 3 specific ones which are just as good, but the rest of foreigners bring the average down. Some other tournaments might be actually more difficult than Blizzcon (but not GSL), but BlizzCon will have the most prestige because it's the global finals. It's like the soccer worldcup. A lot of people say the Champions League is harder than the WorldCup, or the eurocup. Might be.But the world cup is the most prestigious. | ||
|
THERIDDLER
Canada126 Posts
| ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4958 Posts
On September 16 2020 16:31 Harris1st wrote: First paragraph is correct in past tense. Are you honestly telling us that you think a tournament with Serral and Reynor in it is easier to win than a tournament with Koreans 9th to 16th ( Zoun, Armani, Dream, Solar, ....? ) lol Second paragraph. Yes GSL is still much harder to win than a top EU tournament I think you diminish the quality of players such Zoun Armani Dream Solar etc because you mainly see them playing in GSL. For example Armani is 966–415 (69.95%) in games and 462–148 (75.74%) in matches vs non-korean players according to aligulac which is quite high. One may wonder being no region lock how the top8 of each WCS migth be. I bet you will finf it fill mainly with this 9 to 16th GSL players. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland26168 Posts
On September 17 2020 05:58 THERIDDLER wrote: I dont get how anyone could remotely think Blizzcon>GSL when region lock is literally the proof that GSL > Blizzcon There is one Blizzcon a year, you get 3 shots at a GSL. For many athletes the Olympic Games has prestige and recognition beyond winning their particular World Championships because it’s every 4 years and you have to nail your moment in the sun. Even though those Worlds may be annual or every 2 years and a more accurate gauge of who’s at the top, the Olympics has all the new casual viewers and the huge occasion and the subsequent recognition. Although I do think GSL has a higher level of play and many consider it the crowning glory in SC, Blizzcon has some merits too. Not that it means much re the prestige, such an observation but really Blizzcon champs are all solid hall-of-famers that have won other big tournaments and been at the top of the game for long periods, that’s not 100% the case with GSL champions | ||
|
Harris1st
Germany7001 Posts
On September 17 2020 05:58 THERIDDLER wrote: I dont get how anyone could remotely think Blizzcon>GSL when region lock is literally the proof that GSL > Blizzcon Because 2018 Blizzcon winner and 2019 Runner-up are no GSL players  To use your logic: "that is literally proof that Dreamhack EU > GSL" On September 17 2020 06:52 Argonauta wrote: I think you diminish the quality of players such Zoun Armani Dream Solar etc because you mainly see them playing in GSL. For example Armani is 966–415 (69.95%) in games and 462–148 (75.74%) in matches vs non-korean players according to aligulac which is quite high. One may wonder being no region lock how the top8 of each WCS migth be. I bet you will finf it fill mainly with this 9 to 16th GSL players. The questios was "what is harder to win" and I think if you ask every player in the world who they it's harder to win against, Serral or Armani, the answers are 99,99% Serral Nothing to do with diminishing quality of players in general. Serral and Reynor are just flat out better than Armani, Zoun, Dream and Solar and therefore it is harder to win against them and therefore it is harder to win a tournament with them participating | ||
|
Cricketer12
United States13990 Posts
IEM gets 2nd most hype GSL is the most notable win in terms of skill indication | ||
|
Harris1st
Germany7001 Posts
1. Shitton of price pool 2. At least 90% through Qualifier 3. At least 60% Koreans and at least 20% EU 4. Played offline | ||
| ||
