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On August 06 2020 03:16 Charoisaur wrote:
Also success in 2012-2015 against koreans should be valued WAY higher than success against koreans now for obvious reasons.
Still Serral is obviously 1st because his achievements are just way beyond anyone else on this list.
I disagree. While depth in Korea is a huge problem, the skill ceiling has not dropped for the top players. So beating Stats, Inno, Rogue, Cure, etc. now is definitely on par with beating Life, MVP, MMA, MC, Nestea or Rain was back in the day.
E: also, lol at some 7-post account having the power to declare this thread closed. Noped.
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France12904 Posts
To Phantom:
He was too young in WoL and HotS to really compete at the highest level, and had school (well you can still play a shit ton in high school but still), so LotV was when he could peak since he was old enough and soon finished high school.
He is strong mechanically but his greatest asset is to try to understand how to play the different situations perfectly.
Patch zerg doesn’t mean shit but zerg has been supremely strong for most of LotV and it helped him a ton.
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On August 06 2020 01:08 AcrossFromTime wrote:
1) No. Serral is not the GOAT of SC2.
2) This thread can't lead to anything good, so I'm closing it now.
I thought this forum was about GFOAT, not GOAT....
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On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a patch zerg? I undertand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV (who would have guessed that the xpac that punish you for staying in few bases, favored the race that can most easily expand). Is that part of it?
I can udnerstand him winning in NA and EU agaisn't foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene?
Serral was a student in WOL and HOTS, so he was only part time SC2 pro, which means he didn't put in as much effort in SC2 since he wanted to get an education.
After he graduated High school sometime in 2017, he burst out in the scene and achieved things no foreigners has ever done before (except Neeb who won the first KR Tournament in 2016). He won 4 WCS tournaments of one year; Won Blizzcon, and beat many top Koreans to do so.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a patch zerg? I undertand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV (who would have guessed that the xpac that punish you for staying in few bases, favored the race that can most easily expand). Is that part of it?
I can udnerstand him winning in NA and EU agaisn't foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene?
Do yourself a favor and watch his series vs Stats in 2018, both the GSL vs the World and Blizzcon one if you find couple of hours to spend. It kinda expresses our argument on how good Serral actually is at his peak.
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On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
It's a combination of all that. Serral is really good but the other things you said are also all true. Except Balance, his only big win that was really tainted by balance was his 2nd GSL vs the world title.
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On August 06 2020 03:31 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 03:16 Charoisaur wrote:
Also success in 2012-2015 against koreans should be valued WAY higher than success against koreans now for obvious reasons.
Still Serral is obviously 1st because his achievements are just way beyond anyone else on this list. I disagree. While depth in Korea is a huge problem, the skill ceiling has not dropped for the top players. So beating Stats, Inno, Rogue, Cure, etc. now is definitely on par with beating Life, MVP, MMA, MC, Nestea or Rain was back in the day. E: also, lol at some 7-post account having the power to declare this thread closed. Noped.
That's highly arguable. Rogue for example admits that he often has no motivation to practice at all and yet he remains one of the top dogs in the scene. I wouldn't put that on par with beating top koreans back when they were all practicing all day in Kespa houses.
E: also, lol at some 7-post account having the power to declare this thread closed. Noped.
that's copy-pasted from here https://tl.net/forum/closed-threads/561861-is-serral-the-goat-of-sc2?page=2
At first I thought it's a bot but his other posts seem legit.
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I guess it is obvious that Serral is number one, has it ever been the case that a foreigner is consistently deemed to be the favorite in every single match against Koreans?
At the same time, his success comes during what is possibly the twilight years of SC2. It is just not likely that the best of young, promising talent choose to pick up sc2. Also, throughout his success zerg has been in a good spot. Being dominant with a race unfavored by the meta makes for a more impressive feat and a better story (kind of like a Bisu or saviOr perhaps). Where would Serral be had he picked a different race? There has never been a consistently strong foreign terran. Is that race just off limits for foreigners?
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On August 06 2020 03:44 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a patch zerg? I undertand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV (who would have guessed that the xpac that punish you for staying in few bases, favored the race that can most easily expand). Is that part of it?
I can udnerstand him winning in NA and EU agaisn't foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene? Do yourself a favor and watch his series vs Stats in 2018, both the GSL vs the World and Blizzcon one if you find couple of hours to spend. It kinda expresses our argument on how good Serral actually is at his peak.
Also, watch g4 of Serral vs Rogue at BlizzCon and look at Rogue's face towards the end. Rogue said in the interviews that he was the strongest Zerg(or something like that).
People here are not mentioning that Serral won every offline series he played in nine months(lost one online), including the best streak against koreans ever.
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On August 06 2020 03:59 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 03:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a patch zerg? I undertand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV (who would have guessed that the xpac that punish you for staying in few bases, favored the race that can most easily expand). Is that part of it?
I can udnerstand him winning in NA and EU agaisn't foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene? Do yourself a favor and watch his series vs Stats in 2018, both the GSL vs the World and Blizzcon one if you find couple of hours to spend. It kinda expresses our argument on how good Serral actually is at his peak. People here are not mentioning that Serral won every offline series he played in nine months(lost one online), including the best streak against koreans ever.
Good that we have Xainon here who always mentions it at every opportunity.
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Mexico2170 Posts
Oh I didn't know he was that young. Yeah that definitely plays a big part of it.
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Just a reminder, that TL voting has been used multiple times for huge prize pool tournements.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 05 2020 20:51 MockHamill wrote:
Idra is overrated in my opinion. He had good macro by WOL standards but apart from that he was not a very good player. I do not think he belongs on a top 10 list over foreigners.
Serral:
Macro 10/10
Micro 9/10
Decision making: 10/10
Mentality: 10/10
Idra:
Macro 8/10
Micro 6/10
Decision making: 4/10
Mentality: 2/10
lol, you're totally off. Just rewatch some Day9 dailies about Idra. he was the best macro player. That's why he insisted to play macro games... micro 6/10? You do realize he's like the only foreigner who was on the KeSPA team, right? some fanboys.
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France12904 Posts
IdrA was good-ish but had no real deep run in the GSL and was rapidly outshined in foreign tournaments by Stephano so there is no reason to talk about him if even Jinro doesn't make the cut. ThorZain on the other hand had really solid results. LucifroN was also one of the most talented terran players but unfortunately peaked during broodlord infestor, so his results didn't even match those of his lesser talented (imo) brother VortiX.
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On August 06 2020 03:59 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 03:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a patch zerg? I undertand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV (who would have guessed that the xpac that punish you for staying in few bases, favored the race that can most easily expand). Is that part of it?
I can udnerstand him winning in NA and EU agaisn't foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene? Do yourself a favor and watch his series vs Stats in 2018, both the GSL vs the World and Blizzcon one if you find couple of hours to spend. It kinda expresses our argument on how good Serral actually is at his peak. People here are not mentioning that Serral won every offline series he played in nine months(lost one online), including the best streak against koreans ever.
Serral has some really incredible acheivements that people in this thread have pointed out, but winning every series for nine months is considerably less impressive than it sounds when you realise he only entered two big tournaments (that included koreans) during that time.
How many players have won two big tournaments in a row? Quite a few.
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On August 06 2020 03:55 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 03:31 Acrofales wrote:On August 06 2020 03:16 Charoisaur wrote:
Also success in 2012-2015 against koreans should be valued WAY higher than success against koreans now for obvious reasons.
Still Serral is obviously 1st because his achievements are just way beyond anyone else on this list. I disagree. While depth in Korea is a huge problem, the skill ceiling has not dropped for the top players. So beating Stats, Inno, Rogue, Cure, etc. now is definitely on par with beating Life, MVP, MMA, MC, Nestea or Rain was back in the day. E: also, lol at some 7-post account having the power to declare this thread closed. Noped. That's highly arguable. Rogue for example admits that he often has no motivation to practice at all and yet he remains one of the top dogs in the scene. I wouldn't put that on par with beating top koreans back when they were all practicing all day in Kespa houses. Show nested quote +
E: also, lol at some 7-post account having the power to declare this thread closed. Noped.
that's copy-pasted from here https://tl.net/forum/closed-threads/561861-is-serral-the-goat-of-sc2?page=2 At first I thought it's a bot but his other posts seem legit.
Individual really talented players sometimes not practicing yet still performing is not something unique to nowadays. MC (and infamously among foreigners, Stephano) also decided to just not practice for long stretches. On the other side of the spectrum, there's players who just grind grind grind. I haven't read many interviews from 2015/16, but do you think Rogue is a significantly different person now compared to then? And there are other players who aren't exactly known for their practice regime, although of course being under a strict contract and living in a team house probably heeped on both contractual and peer pressure to practice even if you didn't feel it.
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On August 06 2020 04:32 Poopi wrote:
IdrA was good-ish but had no real deep run in the GSL and was rapidly outshined in foreign tournaments by Stephano so there is no reason to talk about him if even Jinro doesn't make the cut. ThorZain on the other hand had really solid results. LucifroN was also one of the most talented terran players but unfortunately peaked during broodlord infestor, so his results didn't even match those of his lesser talented (imo) brother VortiX.
ro8 gsl defeating people like genius and nada is not good enough for you?
also when Stephano became the best foreigner this was not the same IdrA as 2010/2011. He was hating the game and considering retiring. Despite this in the 2012 world championship he still 2-0d Stephano and 2-0d RorO. Both were arguably at their peak.
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On August 06 2020 04:45 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 03:59 Xain0n wrote:On August 06 2020 03:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a patch zerg? I undertand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV (who would have guessed that the xpac that punish you for staying in few bases, favored the race that can most easily expand). Is that part of it?
I can udnerstand him winning in NA and EU agaisn't foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene? Do yourself a favor and watch his series vs Stats in 2018, both the GSL vs the World and Blizzcon one if you find couple of hours to spend. It kinda expresses our argument on how good Serral actually is at his peak. People here are not mentioning that Serral won every offline series he played in nine months(lost one online), including the best streak against koreans ever. Serral has some really incredible acheivements that people in this thread have pointed out, but winning every series for nine months is considerably less impressive than it sounds when you realise he only entered two big tournaments (that included koreans) during that time. How many players have won two big tournaments in a row? Quite a few.
Won 7 premier tournaments in 12 months. Nice try tho.
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On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a "patch zerg"? I understand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV.Is that part of it?
I can understand him winning in NA and EU against foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene?
How could he improve so much so fast compared to the rest of the scene? Honestl'y I've seen just his WCS games and a couple more here and there.
weird that youre a writer if youve been gone so long ... "relatively well" the guy has like 12 premier tournament wins (im not sure what the actual count is anymore but itd be about that).
Edit: confirmed it is 12 premier wins. Also 5 silver so 17 finals. Which is part of why he is GOAT contender status. He has consistently made the best in Korea look like chumps and all Koreans respect him as the one to beat these days.
As others have said he was young in Hots. He broke out end of 2017 and went on the most dominant run in sc2 ever in 2018, lkind of into 2019 too , although lots of people like to point out one or two losses there and say he was awful im 2019 lol. He has been highest rank on aligulac for over 2 years, reynor has very recently passed him though.
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Northern Ireland25976 Posts
On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a "patch zerg"? I understand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV.Is that part of it?
I can understand him winning in NA and EU against foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene?
How could he improve so much so fast compared to the rest of the scene? Honestl'y I've seen just his WCS games and a couple more here and there.
I too took a break and Serral was also new on me too, so enjoy discovering him and his chops!
I’d say he’s the most relentlessly consistent player I’ve seen. Doesn’t mean to say the outright best.
His mechanics are phenomenal, his game sense, scouting and reads and strategy in game are phenomenal, and he plays Zerg, the best race for a good defensive macro player with great mechanics.
Really bloody good player all round! Aside from tournament game’s I’d recommend just searching ‘Serral’ stream on YouTube there’s some good FPVoDs where he commentates too if you wanted to check that out.
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EPT
