|
I've followed SC2 from the first day it was released, so I've wanted to do this for a long time and with the 10 year anniversary and close of SC2 (before SC3!) now seemed as good a time as any to finally discuss and reach consensus on the most important question: who is the greatest foreigner to play the game?
Notable points
There's obviously a lot of contention and controversy over the fairest way to measure this. Here are things to consider when I was choosing:
- Timing: Unlike traditional sports, SC2 is constantly evolving via patches and expansions, to the point where they are almost completely different games. Zergs today never know the pain of the archon toilet while protoss in WoL never had to deal with swarmhosts. Though it's hard to make a comparison, we will favor players whose dominance lasted the longest across these changes.
- Competition: Just like the question of if Michael Jordan and the dream team could beat Lebron and the redeem team, we can never know how two historical greats could've squared off since they simply played at different times. WoL (and some HoTs) players never dealt with Kespa pros while players today never had to deal with the old timer greats (Life, MVP, etc). As such, the seemingly fairest thing we can do is compare them against the top Koreans of their time
- Achievements: Is two MLG titles > 1 GSL Code S? Is 1 blizzcon win > 3 Dreamhacks? In the olden days, Code S was the single most competitive tournament in the world, bar none. Since then Blizzard has made changes to integrate the global SC2 community more closely, with more player mixing across regions and tournament. They've also created the all-star yearly tournament Blizzcon. How do these match up?
Contenders
 NaNiwa- Who can forget the original badboy, the best foreigner with the worst attitude? Any WoL player remembers Naniwa for his dominance, iconic forfeit during IEM Katowice, and being (practically) the only non-Korean to play in Code S. With 2 MLG wins and deep runs in every tournament, Naniwa has to be in any list discussing great foreigners. He was also dominant in HoTs as well as WoL, which is a rarity for any player.
 Stephano (edited) - The party boy needs no introduction, as he was one of the most outgoing personalities of his time. Famously stating he does not practice that much, Stephano dominated WoL with innovative builds eg the 12 min roach maxout. Though he had limited success while he lived in Korea, he was the second foreigner who could go toe to toe with any top Korean with a Proleague win. Admittedly, he played both LoTV and HoTS, not nearly to the success he had in WoL, which has to invite some "patch zerg" criticisms. However, with $300,000 lifetime winnings and a slew of tournament wins, Stephano was unquestionably the most dominant foreigner Zerg in WoL.
Scarlett - Scarlett has the least achievements in terms of hardware compared to everyone on this list (with a single PyeongChang IEM win), but deserves a spot on this list from pure consistency alone. She is easily the best female player and the only player to be among the top for the entire SC2 lifetime, a feat no other player has achieved. Though the other players may be criticized as patch zergs/tosses, Scarlett is nothing but consistent.
Neeb - Though unimpressive in the first two expansions, Neeb earns a spot on this list for becoming the first foreigner to win a Korean tournament, and the second foreigner to reach the semi-finals of the GSL. In terms of going toe to toe with top Koreans, Neeb has to be in the discussion. His achievements in LoTV is only eclipsed by the next player.
Serral - Of course that leads us to our modern day king. The case for Serral is clear to the new generation of SC2 fans. He has won almost $900,000 in earnings and has been on top of the world the last few years, becoming the most decorated foreigner in all SC history. He is the first foreigner who not only could go toe to toe with top Koreans, but is actually favored. The main case against him is that he was active since WoL and HoTs and never competitive with the best, leading to the criticism he excels solely from LoTV patches at a time when Zergs were winning GSLs without practicing.
Close but no cigar
I was originally going to include this section but omitted it for fear of the post being too long and unreadable, but since they are mentioned in the comments I will include it below. The following are a few players that I think are close but not in contention for the following reasons.
Snute - Snute's mechanics rival any top Korean Zerg and has been consistent since the beginning. However, he just doesn't have the tier 1 titles to compete with any of the above.
Reynor - Reynor's most notable achievement was being able to take down the Goliath Serral at a time when people thought he was untouchable. Though up and coming, he too does not have the credentials of the above list. There are many other Zergs throughout SC2 that fit this category.
Verdict
+ Show Spoiler +It's quite close but from the metrics above, I have to hand give the title to Serral. Even though he was present in the first two expansions and was anything but dominant, his overwhelming dominance currently is unprecedented. Even if we make the argument that most of the original top Koreans have retired, he is the most decorated foreigner and boasts a Blizzcon win. We can't compare him against a hypothetical  Mvp or Life, but he is unquestionably the most dominant foreigner of his time.
Poll: Who is the GFOAT?Avilo (3719) 94% Serral (167) 4% Neeb (36) 1% Naniwa (14) 0% Stephano (14) 0% Scarlett (10) 0% 3960 total votes Your vote: Who is the GFOAT? (Vote): Serral
(Vote): Naniwa
(Vote): Stephano
(Vote): Scarlett
(Vote): Neeb
(Vote): Avilo
|
Serral is the most colored but it is Neeb who paved the way.
Edit: colored - > decorated
|
IMO Snute and Lilbow should be on this list; Scarlett and Avilo should not.
|
Don't think there can be anyone but Serral. He has a case for GOAT never mind GFOAT.
|
Lol for putting avilo in the poll. The only GFOAT he could win is if you changed G to stand for something like Garbage
|
|
|
Russian Federation13020 Posts
Well, LotV bias are real, but they have to be real, because at this point LotV approaches lifespan longer than that of WoL and HotS combined.
So yeah, by virtue of that, Serral kind of has to be GFOAT with little contention.
|
If you are some kinda WoL purist I guess you can make a claim for Stephano, but over the entire lifespan of SC2 I don't think there is much doubt that it's Serral, by quite a bit.
E: your intro blurb is wrong. Stephano was still playing at the beginning of HotS, but he shone at the end of WoL, not HotS. He was the king of the BL Infestor age.
|
East Gorteau21350 Posts
I think the question of who is second best is far more interesting than who is the greatest foreigner of all time, to which the answer seems quite obviously "Serral". It's extremely telling that you could subtract any one, two, maybe even three, championships from his resume and it would still be supremely difficult to give the title to anyone else. I think there's a lot of merit to be given to Stephano and Neeb respectively for achieving things that were unheard of before them (competing reliably with the top brass in Stephano's case, winning a Korean championship in Neeb's) but Serral is beyond comparison.
|
Stephano dominated the foreign scene while the whole SC2 pro scene was relatively weak in terms of skill. Even though the cash pools got cut, today's players far outclass players of the first generation—and it's not even close. Stephano dominated the foreign scene for a very short period, but his skills very obviously hit its plateau, and as the rest of the SC2 pros continued to improve, he was left behind. By the time Snute hit his peak, he was already much more skilled than Stephano ever was. However, Snute didn't dominate because the rest of the scene also got much stronger. Neeb looked like a Serral prototype in 2016-2017, winning the Kespa Cup and 3 WCS trophies. To me, Neeb is a far better contender than Stephano or Naniwa for foreigner goat. Not even close, in fact.
Serral makes all of them look miniscule, and I don't mind that at all. :D
In comes the young Reynor, already making his splash, toppling Korean after Korean, and somehow giving Serral the 3-1 asskicking that nobody anticipated.
|
I agree that Serral is obviously the best foreigner ever. I would add Huk and Jinro to the list of potential contenders for the podium because they are the only foreigners with Naniwa (especially Jinro, even if it was short-lived) that made me believe they could win Code S one day.
|
United States29676 Posts
Never include a joke option unless you intend for a lot of people to vote on it 
|
Bisutopia17811 Posts
On August 05 2020 08:30 Zealously wrote:
I think the question of who is second best is far more interesting than who is the greatest foreigner of all time, to which the answer seems quite obviously "Serral". It's extremely telling that you could subtract any one, two, maybe even three, championships from his resume and it would still be supremely difficult to give the title to anyone else. I think there's a lot of merit to be given to Stephano and Neeb respectively for achieving things that were unheard of before them (competing reliably with the top brass in Stephano's case, winning a Korean championship in Neeb's) but Serral is beyond comparison.
Agreed. Second best or best of each era. Then we can argue which era was the most difficult for a foreign player to thrive in. Still, Serral is greatest in accomplishments and the other top 3-4 foreign pros right now are probably better then any of the other past greats at their peaks. What made past pros skillful was there ability to run a long tournament gauntlet like MLG to get their wins.
|
On August 05 2020 08:30 Zealously wrote:
I think the question of who is second best is far more interesting than who is the greatest foreigner of all time, to which the answer seems quite obviously "Serral". It's extremely telling that you could subtract any one, two, maybe even three, championships from his resume and it would still be supremely difficult to give the title to anyone else. I think there's a lot of merit to be given to Stephano and Neeb respectively for achieving things that were unheard of before them (competing reliably with the top brass in Stephano's case, winning a Korean championship in Neeb's) but Serral is beyond comparison.
Also maybe Reynor? 2nd at Blizzcon is arguably more impressive than Neeb's korean victory.
|
Northern Ireland15171 Posts
Can we just not mention Avilo like, ever?
Serral is obviously top, but as said before in this thread number 2 is quite the fascinating one.
If it’s a ladder of progression, Stephano had some great results and felt like the first guy you felt had a good chance against even top Koreans in a stacked tournament bracket. Although he wasn’t a slouch in other matchups it was ZvP especially where he was super scary.
Then you have Neeb as the next guy you feel could beat S class Koreans with consistency, and he did it on Korean soil too. The scene had slightly changed since Stephano’s peak too, but also he dominated other foreigners in a way we hadn’t seen or hadn’t previously seen until Serral and now Reynor.
I think dominating other foreigners is also a factor here that’s generally rather underrated. As good as IdrA, Huk, Jinro et al were, having followed the game forever I don’t really remember (for extended periods) ever feeling ‘as long as they avoid a top Korean they’ll win against the rest of the field.’ With Serral or Neeb at his peak they consistently do this, and Reynor increasingly so.
Reynor is obviously up there but he didn’t break any of the ceilings that the previous two had. He is a better player arguably though.
|
On August 05 2020 09:24 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2020 08:30 Zealously wrote:
I think the question of who is second best is far more interesting than who is the greatest foreigner of all time, to which the answer seems quite obviously "Serral". It's extremely telling that you could subtract any one, two, maybe even three, championships from his resume and it would still be supremely difficult to give the title to anyone else. I think there's a lot of merit to be given to Stephano and Neeb respectively for achieving things that were unheard of before them (competing reliably with the top brass in Stephano's case, winning a Korean championship in Neeb's) but Serral is beyond comparison. Also maybe Reynor? 2nd at Blizzcon is arguably more impressive than Neeb's korean victory.
Neeb's Korean victory was historic though, and if we just look at their full list of achievements Neeb has a much longer list of them (including a GSL semi) than Reynor. And Reynor has pretty consistently been overshadowed by Serral.
It wouldn't surprise me if Reynor resume eventually surpassed Neeb's, but he's still at least a year or two of strong performances away from that.
|
Northern Ireland15171 Posts
On August 05 2020 09:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2020 09:24 Pandain wrote:On August 05 2020 08:30 Zealously wrote:
I think the question of who is second best is far more interesting than who is the greatest foreigner of all time, to which the answer seems quite obviously "Serral". It's extremely telling that you could subtract any one, two, maybe even three, championships from his resume and it would still be supremely difficult to give the title to anyone else. I think there's a lot of merit to be given to Stephano and Neeb respectively for achieving things that were unheard of before them (competing reliably with the top brass in Stephano's case, winning a Korean championship in Neeb's) but Serral is beyond comparison. Also maybe Reynor? 2nd at Blizzcon is arguably more impressive than Neeb's korean victory. Neeb's Korean victory was historic though, and if we just look at their full list of achievements Neeb has a much longer list of them (including a GSL semi) than Reynor. And Reynor has pretty consistently been overshadowed by Serral. It wouldn't surprise me if Reynor resume eventually surpassed Neeb's, but he's still at least a year or two of strong performances away from that.
Blizzcon is Blizzcon, gotta count for something. I do kind of agree with you though.
As to what I’m not entirely sure. It’s not hard to get there if you’re a top foreigner and a few good series and you’re away.
Reynor had a good run, but he had quite a lot of bracket luck too. ZvP was in such a state that Classic constructed a blink DTs build, he had HeroMarine in ZvT who he’s just a level above and Serral uncharacteristically threw the deciding set against him in their showdown (arguably)
Not to disparage Reynor at all, he’s a great player and he’s pushed his ZvT up to another level since then. Indeed I think a considerable step up, previously it felt outside WCS he was a massive talent who could have a deep run (and did at Blizzcon) but one couldn’t be confident in it. Nowadays I think there’s less uncertainty there.
Neebs runs, while not having quite that Serral level of predictability felt more like a consistent top S class player beating other S class players.
|
I consider Serral to be the GOAT, so this isn't really a question. As for second greatest I'm leaning towards Scarlett, who's somehow managed to come into GSL ro16 twice in 2020 after being one of the best in the scene for a decade now. She also has the highest prize money earnings for any woman in eSports, which is certainly an achievement worthy of consideration. In general, her sheer consistency of being a pro is what sells it for me.
|
Obviously Serral is the GFOAT, there's no question by now, his achievements are massive and his consistent level of play through these last couple of years is insane.
I'm sad HuK didn't get at least a mention, for me HuK was the best foreign protoss during WoL.
|
Surely this is a troll post, Serral obviously by a mile. "Its close" - absolutely not.
Serral is in the top 3 players all time, and had undeniably the highest and longest peak of all time.
The race for 2nd best foreigner is between Neeb/Stephano. Probably Stephano had more noteworthy wins on balance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
