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I've followed SC2 from the first day it was released, so I've wanted to do this for a long time and with the 10 year anniversary and close of SC2 (before SC3!) now seemed as good a time as any to finally discuss and reach consensus on the most important question: who is the greatest foreigner to play the game?
Notable points
There's obviously a lot of contention and controversy over the fairest way to measure this. Here are things to consider when I was choosing:
- Timing: Unlike traditional sports, SC2 is constantly evolving via patches and expansions, to the point where they are almost completely different games. Zergs today never know the pain of the archon toilet while protoss in WoL never had to deal with swarmhosts. Though it's hard to make a comparison, we will favor players whose dominance lasted the longest across these changes.
- Competition: Just like the question of if Michael Jordan and the dream team could beat Lebron and the redeem team, we can never know how two historical greats could've squared off since they simply played at different times. WoL (and some HoTs) players never dealt with Kespa pros while players today never had to deal with the old timer greats (Life, MVP, etc). As such, the seemingly fairest thing we can do is compare them against the top Koreans of their time
- Achievements: Is two MLG titles > 1 GSL Code S? Is 1 blizzcon win > 3 Dreamhacks? In the olden days, Code S was the single most competitive tournament in the world, bar none. Since then Blizzard has made changes to integrate the global SC2 community more closely, with more player mixing across regions and tournament. They've also created the all-star yearly tournament Blizzcon. How do these match up?
Contenders
 NaNiwa- Who can forget the original badboy, the best foreigner with the worst attitude? Any WoL player remembers Naniwa for his dominance, iconic forfeit during IEM Katowice, and being (practically) the only non-Korean to play in Code S. With 2 MLG wins and deep runs in every tournament, Naniwa has to be in any list discussing great foreigners. He was also dominant in HoTs as well as WoL, which is a rarity for any player.
 Stephano (edited) - The party boy needs no introduction, as he was one of the most outgoing personalities of his time. Famously stating he does not practice that much, Stephano dominated WoL with innovative builds eg the 12 min roach maxout. Though he had limited success while he lived in Korea, he was the second foreigner who could go toe to toe with any top Korean with a Proleague win. Admittedly, he played both LoTV and HoTS, not nearly to the success he had in WoL, which has to invite some "patch zerg" criticisms. However, with $300,000 lifetime winnings and a slew of tournament wins, Stephano was unquestionably the most dominant foreigner Zerg in WoL.
Scarlett - Scarlett has the least achievements in terms of hardware compared to everyone on this list (with a single PyeongChang IEM win), but deserves a spot on this list from pure consistency alone. She is easily the best female player and the only player to be among the top for the entire SC2 lifetime, a feat no other player has achieved. Though the other players may be criticized as patch zergs/tosses, Scarlett is nothing but consistent.
Neeb - Though unimpressive in the first two expansions, Neeb earns a spot on this list for becoming the first foreigner to win a Korean tournament, and the second foreigner to reach the semi-finals of the GSL. In terms of going toe to toe with top Koreans, Neeb has to be in the discussion. His achievements in LoTV is only eclipsed by the next player.
Serral - Of course that leads us to our modern day king. The case for Serral is clear to the new generation of SC2 fans. He has won almost $900,000 in earnings and has been on top of the world the last few years, becoming the most decorated foreigner in all SC history. He is the first foreigner who not only could go toe to toe with top Koreans, but is actually favored. The main case against him is that he was active since WoL and HoTs and never competitive with the best, leading to the criticism he excels solely from LoTV patches at a time when Zergs were winning GSLs without practicing.
Close but no cigar
I was originally going to include this section but omitted it for fear of the post being too long and unreadable, but since they are mentioned in the comments I will include it below. The following are a few players that I think are close but not in contention for the following reasons.
Snute - Snute's mechanics rival any top Korean Zerg and has been consistent since the beginning. However, he just doesn't have the tier 1 titles to compete with any of the above.
Reynor - Reynor's most notable achievement was being able to take down the Goliath Serral at a time when people thought he was untouchable. Though up and coming, he too does not have the credentials of the above list. There are many other Zergs throughout SC2 that fit this category.
Verdict
+ Show Spoiler +It's quite close but from the metrics above, I have to hand give the title to Serral. Even though he was present in the first two expansions and was anything but dominant, his overwhelming dominance currently is unprecedented. Even if we make the argument that most of the original top Koreans have retired, he is the most decorated foreigner and boasts a Blizzcon win. We can't compare him against a hypothetical  Mvp or Life, but he is unquestionably the most dominant foreigner of his time.
Poll: Who is the GFOAT?Avilo (3723) 94% Serral (172) 4% Neeb (37) 1% Naniwa (14) 0% Stephano (14) 0% Scarlett (12) 0% 3972 total votes Your vote: Who is the GFOAT? (Vote): Serral
(Vote): Naniwa
(Vote): Stephano
(Vote): Scarlett
(Vote): Neeb
(Vote): Avilo
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Serral is the most colored but it is Neeb who paved the way.
Edit: colored - > decorated
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IMO Snute and Lilbow should be on this list; Scarlett and Avilo should not.
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Don't think there can be anyone but Serral. He has a case for GOAT never mind GFOAT.
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Lol for putting avilo in the poll. The only GFOAT he could win is if you changed G to stand for something like Garbage
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
Well, LotV bias are real, but they have to be real, because at this point LotV approaches lifespan longer than that of WoL and HotS combined.
So yeah, by virtue of that, Serral kind of has to be GFOAT with little contention.
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If you are some kinda WoL purist I guess you can make a claim for Stephano, but over the entire lifespan of SC2 I don't think there is much doubt that it's Serral, by quite a bit.
E: your intro blurb is wrong. Stephano was still playing at the beginning of HotS, but he shone at the end of WoL, not HotS. He was the king of the BL Infestor age.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
I think the question of who is second best is far more interesting than who is the greatest foreigner of all time, to which the answer seems quite obviously "Serral". It's extremely telling that you could subtract any one, two, maybe even three, championships from his resume and it would still be supremely difficult to give the title to anyone else. I think there's a lot of merit to be given to Stephano and Neeb respectively for achieving things that were unheard of before them (competing reliably with the top brass in Stephano's case, winning a Korean championship in Neeb's) but Serral is beyond comparison.
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Stephano dominated the foreign scene while the whole SC2 pro scene was relatively weak in terms of skill. Even though the cash pools got cut, today's players far outclass players of the first generation—and it's not even close. Stephano dominated the foreign scene for a very short period, but his skills very obviously hit its plateau, and as the rest of the SC2 pros continued to improve, he was left behind. By the time Snute hit his peak, he was already much more skilled than Stephano ever was. However, Snute didn't dominate because the rest of the scene also got much stronger. Neeb looked like a Serral prototype in 2016-2017, winning the Kespa Cup and 3 WCS trophies. To me, Neeb is a far better contender than Stephano or Naniwa for foreigner goat. Not even close, in fact.
Serral makes all of them look miniscule, and I don't mind that at all. :D
In comes the young Reynor, already making his splash, toppling Korean after Korean, and somehow giving Serral the 3-1 asskicking that nobody anticipated.
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I agree that Serral is obviously the best foreigner ever. I would add Huk and Jinro to the list of potential contenders for the podium because they are the only foreigners with Naniwa (especially Jinro, even if it was short-lived) that made me believe they could win Code S one day.
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United States33366 Posts
Never include a joke option unless you intend for a lot of people to vote on it 
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Bisutopia19231 Posts
On August 05 2020 08:30 Zealously wrote:
I think the question of who is second best is far more interesting than who is the greatest foreigner of all time, to which the answer seems quite obviously "Serral". It's extremely telling that you could subtract any one, two, maybe even three, championships from his resume and it would still be supremely difficult to give the title to anyone else. I think there's a lot of merit to be given to Stephano and Neeb respectively for achieving things that were unheard of before them (competing reliably with the top brass in Stephano's case, winning a Korean championship in Neeb's) but Serral is beyond comparison.
Agreed. Second best or best of each era. Then we can argue which era was the most difficult for a foreign player to thrive in. Still, Serral is greatest in accomplishments and the other top 3-4 foreign pros right now are probably better then any of the other past greats at their peaks. What made past pros skillful was there ability to run a long tournament gauntlet like MLG to get their wins.
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On August 05 2020 08:30 Zealously wrote:
I think the question of who is second best is far more interesting than who is the greatest foreigner of all time, to which the answer seems quite obviously "Serral". It's extremely telling that you could subtract any one, two, maybe even three, championships from his resume and it would still be supremely difficult to give the title to anyone else. I think there's a lot of merit to be given to Stephano and Neeb respectively for achieving things that were unheard of before them (competing reliably with the top brass in Stephano's case, winning a Korean championship in Neeb's) but Serral is beyond comparison.
Also maybe Reynor? 2nd at Blizzcon is arguably more impressive than Neeb's korean victory.
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Northern Ireland25152 Posts
Can we just not mention Avilo like, ever?
Serral is obviously top, but as said before in this thread number 2 is quite the fascinating one.
If it’s a ladder of progression, Stephano had some great results and felt like the first guy you felt had a good chance against even top Koreans in a stacked tournament bracket. Although he wasn’t a slouch in other matchups it was ZvP especially where he was super scary.
Then you have Neeb as the next guy you feel could beat S class Koreans with consistency, and he did it on Korean soil too. The scene had slightly changed since Stephano’s peak too, but also he dominated other foreigners in a way we hadn’t seen or hadn’t previously seen until Serral and now Reynor.
I think dominating other foreigners is also a factor here that’s generally rather underrated. As good as IdrA, Huk, Jinro et al were, having followed the game forever I don’t really remember (for extended periods) ever feeling ‘as long as they avoid a top Korean they’ll win against the rest of the field.’ With Serral or Neeb at his peak they consistently do this, and Reynor increasingly so.
Reynor is obviously up there but he didn’t break any of the ceilings that the previous two had. He is a better player arguably though.
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On August 05 2020 09:24 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2020 08:30 Zealously wrote:
I think the question of who is second best is far more interesting than who is the greatest foreigner of all time, to which the answer seems quite obviously "Serral". It's extremely telling that you could subtract any one, two, maybe even three, championships from his resume and it would still be supremely difficult to give the title to anyone else. I think there's a lot of merit to be given to Stephano and Neeb respectively for achieving things that were unheard of before them (competing reliably with the top brass in Stephano's case, winning a Korean championship in Neeb's) but Serral is beyond comparison. Also maybe Reynor? 2nd at Blizzcon is arguably more impressive than Neeb's korean victory.
Neeb's Korean victory was historic though, and if we just look at their full list of achievements Neeb has a much longer list of them (including a GSL semi) than Reynor. And Reynor has pretty consistently been overshadowed by Serral.
It wouldn't surprise me if Reynor resume eventually surpassed Neeb's, but he's still at least a year or two of strong performances away from that.
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Northern Ireland25152 Posts
On August 05 2020 09:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2020 09:24 Pandain wrote:On August 05 2020 08:30 Zealously wrote:
I think the question of who is second best is far more interesting than who is the greatest foreigner of all time, to which the answer seems quite obviously "Serral". It's extremely telling that you could subtract any one, two, maybe even three, championships from his resume and it would still be supremely difficult to give the title to anyone else. I think there's a lot of merit to be given to Stephano and Neeb respectively for achieving things that were unheard of before them (competing reliably with the top brass in Stephano's case, winning a Korean championship in Neeb's) but Serral is beyond comparison. Also maybe Reynor? 2nd at Blizzcon is arguably more impressive than Neeb's korean victory. Neeb's Korean victory was historic though, and if we just look at their full list of achievements Neeb has a much longer list of them (including a GSL semi) than Reynor. And Reynor has pretty consistently been overshadowed by Serral. It wouldn't surprise me if Reynor resume eventually surpassed Neeb's, but he's still at least a year or two of strong performances away from that.
Blizzcon is Blizzcon, gotta count for something. I do kind of agree with you though.
As to what I’m not entirely sure. It’s not hard to get there if you’re a top foreigner and a few good series and you’re away.
Reynor had a good run, but he had quite a lot of bracket luck too. ZvP was in such a state that Classic constructed a blink DTs build, he had HeroMarine in ZvT who he’s just a level above and Serral uncharacteristically threw the deciding set against him in their showdown (arguably)
Not to disparage Reynor at all, he’s a great player and he’s pushed his ZvT up to another level since then. Indeed I think a considerable step up, previously it felt outside WCS he was a massive talent who could have a deep run (and did at Blizzcon) but one couldn’t be confident in it. Nowadays I think there’s less uncertainty there.
Neebs runs, while not having quite that Serral level of predictability felt more like a consistent top S class player beating other S class players.
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I consider Serral to be the GOAT, so this isn't really a question. As for second greatest I'm leaning towards Scarlett, who's somehow managed to come into GSL ro16 twice in 2020 after being one of the best in the scene for a decade now. She also has the highest prize money earnings for any woman in eSports, which is certainly an achievement worthy of consideration. In general, her sheer consistency of being a pro is what sells it for me.
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Obviously Serral is the GFOAT, there's no question by now, his achievements are massive and his consistent level of play through these last couple of years is insane.
I'm sad HuK didn't get at least a mention, for me HuK was the best foreign protoss during WoL.
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Surely this is a troll post, Serral obviously by a mile. "Its close" - absolutely not.
Serral is in the top 3 players all time, and had undeniably the highest and longest peak of all time.
The race for 2nd best foreigner is between Neeb/Stephano. Probably Stephano had more noteworthy wins on balance.
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I think the time periods make it hard to compare the foreigners against one another. With Serral removed from the conversation for obvious reasons I think it boils down to three others. Neeb, Reynor and Stephano.
Neeb has bigger accomplishments than Reynor, and has been at that top level for longer, but Reynor has a good chance at outpacing him.
Stephano on the other hand, elevated the game in a way for both foreigners and Koreans alike. He might not have been the best in the world, but when he beat people it seemed effortless. He had the magic. Now there are 10+ Foreigners who can beat any of the Koreans in a BO3 or even 5 on any given day. But Stephano was the only one who could do that in that time period.
1. Serral
(many spaces here)
(many many spaces)
2. Neeb / Reynor / Stephano
(somewhere inbetween in and hard to place)
Jinro / IdrA / Naniwa against the likes of Elazer / Special / Clem etc
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That Naniwa pic / title had me laughing out loud audibly. Thanks for the share.
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There's not really any room for debate that #1 foreigner is Serral.
As for second, Snute is seriously underrated here. People have just forgotten about the dark ages of foreigner sc2 I guess.
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On August 05 2020 08:30 Zealously wrote:
I think the question of who is second best is far more interesting than who is the greatest foreigner of all time, to which the answer seems quite obviously "Serral". It's extremely telling that you could subtract any one, two, maybe even three, championships from his resume and it would still be supremely difficult to give the title to anyone else. I think there's a lot of merit to be given to Stephano and Neeb respectively for achieving things that were unheard of before them (competing reliably with the top brass in Stephano's case, winning a Korean championship in Neeb's) but Serral is beyond comparison.
It's probably Steph in 2nd for me...though I can see a case made for Naniwa instead...
Neeb and Scarlett are pretty close for 4th/5th
Snute 6th
idk where Reynor goes yet, need more time, special is prob 8th regardless
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China6329 Posts
Zero doubt Serral is the greatest but for 2nd place do not overlook Snute, his long and consistent career can't be understated.
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Serral - Of course that leads us to our modern day king. The case for Serral is clear to the new generation of SC2 fans. He has won almost $900,000 in earnings and has been on top of the world the last few years, becoming the most decorated foreigner arguably in all SC history. He is the first foreigner who not only could go toe to toe with top Koreans, but was actually favored. The main case against him is that he was active since WoL and HoTs and never competitive with the best, leading to the criticism he excels solely from LoTV patches.
He was going to school full time and couldn t be considered pro Back then. The Moment he finished school, he exploded like no one else ever did.
This is not even close. There s never been a foreigner, that was in considered the best Player of his race Period even by Kr pros.
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i cant believe people actually think the level of competition is greater now
every single NA pro quit, and a couple newcomers are the only thing keeping the entire continent relevant
Serral is the best foreigner, no one else was as close to relevant. it's just a shame the korean scene is dead enough that new talent doesn't want to pick up the game anymore.
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On August 05 2020 08:43 tigon_ridge wrote:
Stephano dominated the foreign scene while the whole SC2 pro scene was relatively weak in terms of skill. Even though the cash pools got cut, today's players far outclass players of the first generation—and it's not even close. Stephano dominated the foreign scene for a very short period, but his skills very obviously hit its plateau, and as the rest of the SC2 pros continued to improve, he was left behind. By the time Snute hit his peak, he was already much more skilled than Stephano ever was. However, Snute didn't dominate because the rest of the scene also got much stronger. Neeb looked like a Serral prototype in 2016-2017, winning the Kespa Cup and 3 WCS trophies. To me, Neeb is a far better contender than Stephano or Naniwa for foreigner goat. Not even close, in fact.
Serral makes all of them look miniscule, and I don't mind that at all. :D
In comes the young Reynor, already making his splash, toppling Korean after Korean, and somehow giving Serral the 3-1 asskicking that nobody anticipated.
Ehm Stephano was left behind because he quit sc2 for like 4-5? years.
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On August 05 2020 14:16 digmouse wrote:
Zero doubt Serral is the greatest but for 2nd place do not overlook Snute, his long and consistent career can't be understated.
I love me some Snute, but I don't put him in the running for GFOAT.
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On August 05 2020 16:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2020 08:43 tigon_ridge wrote:
Stephano dominated the foreign scene while the whole SC2 pro scene was relatively weak in terms of skill. Even though the cash pools got cut, today's players far outclass players of the first generation—and it's not even close. Stephano dominated the foreign scene for a very short period, but his skills very obviously hit its plateau, and as the rest of the SC2 pros continued to improve, he was left behind. By the time Snute hit his peak, he was already much more skilled than Stephano ever was. However, Snute didn't dominate because the rest of the scene also got much stronger. Neeb looked like a Serral prototype in 2016-2017, winning the Kespa Cup and 3 WCS trophies. To me, Neeb is a far better contender than Stephano or Naniwa for foreigner goat. Not even close, in fact.
Serral makes all of them look miniscule, and I don't mind that at all. :D
In comes the young Reynor, already making his splash, toppling Korean after Korean, and somehow giving Serral the 3-1 asskicking that nobody anticipated. Ehm Stephano was left behind because he quit sc2 for like 4-5? years.
He was falling behind long before he announced his plan to quit.
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Messi is a much better player than Maradona just because he dominates in an era where fotboll is played in a much higher level compared to the 80s. Their level of talent may be the same but the actually skill level is not even close.
Same thing with Serral compared to everyone else.
WOL and HOTS heroes are no where near the current level of play.
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I don't know how IdrA and ThorZaiN are not on the "Close but no cigar" list at the very least.
Everyone loves to meme about him, but IdrA was legitimately the best foreigner for quite a bit when the game was young. Two GSL Ro8s when beating Koreans was supposed to be impossible. Even won IEM, IPL, MLG, and ASUS ROG to boot.
And then there's ThorZaiN, who literally made Classic switch races. (He used to play Terran, remember?) His series against MC in TSL 3 is legendary. Not to mention the series against Polt to win Dreamhack. He has a real claim to best Swedish player of all time, even over Naniwa.
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Avilo o.O
ist not the GFOAT but maybe the GTFO
Serral by a mile and then it really depends on the metrics.
People like Stephano, Huk and Thorzain shaped the game, Scarlett and Special have been here forever, Reynor and to an extent Astrea / Clem are winning vs Korean competition...
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I find it poor taste and even insulting to have a "serious" poll where fantastic and intelligent players are put next to the alleged abuser. I won't mind seeing this disappearing.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 05 2020 15:23 Let it Raine wrote:
i cant believe people actually think the level of competition is greater now
every single NA pro quit, and a couple newcomers are the only thing keeping the entire continent relevant
Serral is the best foreigner, no one else was as close to relevant. it's just a shame the korean scene is dead enough that new talent doesn't want to pick up the game anymore.
The level of play is higher, the level of competition is lower. When KeSPA joined we had like 48 top players, even Code S ro32 was stacked and RO16 was insane. nowadays? Yeah, players may be faster and better, but we have so few of them. FFS nowadays we don't even have Code S ro32 because we don't have the players for it... WITH FOREIGNERS IN IT. Same fall applies to the foreign scene, where we had like 20 top players now we have maybe 10. There's no accident every ro8 looks similar
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France12798 Posts
On August 05 2020 17:04 MockHamill wrote:
Messi is a much better player than Maradona just because he dominates in an era where fotboll is played in a much higher level compared to the 80s. Their level of talent may be the same but the actually skill level is not even close.
Same thing with Serral compared to everyone else.
WOL and HOTS heroes are no where near the current level of play.
You underestimate the previous games. And considering how strong zerg has been, how weakened Korea scene is...
Stephano is probably top 2 because he was able to go toe to toe with Koreans even training in Europe only, and dominated the shit out of other foreigners.
Remember his 60-2 run on ladder with one loss being a dc or something? He won a tournament shortly after.
Top 1 is Serral no doubt with the big BlizzCon win, dominance against other foreigners and best of his race at times.
Reynor only thrived in favorable era and is always in the shadows of Serral, but his 2nd place at BlizzCon is a nice achievement in spite of the huge bias towards zerg here. But I’d still put Naniwa, Snute, Neeb and even maybe Scarlett ahead of him. After him would be Special?
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My list:
1. Serral (There's no debate.)
2. Stephano (The one who made foreign fans believe. Late WoL zerg helped, but he was a pioneer in many ways.)
3. Neeb (He has had some slumps, but he's by far the best foreign P ever.)
4. Snute (The grinder.)
5. Nerchio (Look at esportsearnings. He was more succesful than ppl remember.)
6. Scarlett (Maybe a bit too high...but she's had great success over many years. Sadly, she's woefully inconsistent.)
7. Reynor (Best mechanical player of his generation.)
8. Special (He'd be higher on my list if he had won a big tournament. Best foreign T for me.)
9. Lilbow (insert practice meme here)
10. Naniwa (the true villain of SC2)
CNBC: Clem (skill wise he's outstanding, he needs a big win.), Thorzain (never forget the spoon), Jinro (2 nice GSL runs), Huk (pretty good in the first years of SC2), Mana (He's been here like...forever. And he's still capable of great runs.)
IdrA is hard to rank. His mindset was his biggest enemy.
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On August 05 2020 08:56 Totoro1 wrote:
I agree that Serral is obviously the best foreigner ever. I would add Huk and Jinro to the list of potential contenders for the podium because they are the only foreigners with Naniwa (especially Jinro, even if it was short-lived) that made me believe they could win Code S one day.
I completely agree. Jinro was the first foreigner to make a significantly deep run in a GSL. I don't put him on the same level as the foreigners that actually won major tournaments, but he definitely deserves a mention.
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No Jinro or HuK, they were really really good in their era 
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On August 05 2020 09:24 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2020 08:30 Zealously wrote:
I think the question of who is second best is far more interesting than who is the greatest foreigner of all time, to which the answer seems quite obviously "Serral". It's extremely telling that you could subtract any one, two, maybe even three, championships from his resume and it would still be supremely difficult to give the title to anyone else. I think there's a lot of merit to be given to Stephano and Neeb respectively for achieving things that were unheard of before them (competing reliably with the top brass in Stephano's case, winning a Korean championship in Neeb's) but Serral is beyond comparison. Also maybe Reynor? 2nd at Blizzcon is arguably more impressive than Neeb's korean victory.
That's very true. I'm not sure why Reynor slipped my mind in that line of thought, since he was part of the reason why I think the competition for second is so interesting.
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IdrA should absolutely be at least mentioned here. There's no reasonable argument for him to be above Serral, obviously, but honestly, considering his actual level of play, it was almost against the odds that he didn't win way more than he did. He was a serious favorite to win GSL Open Season 1, and I don't think that was at all an unreasonable idea at the time. He continued to be really dominant in the foreign scene for about a year, and a high level foreigner until his release from EG in 2013.
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While jinro's GSL runs are incredible (he also won a MLG in the same period) the peak of his 'skill' and him being competitive with other players only lasted 2-3 months. After that he dropped off really hard, and despite training quite hard couldn't ever even really compete with other foreigners during 2011, a time where foreigners weren't even that good at the game, let alone koreans.
So while his double GSL runs are an insane feat, he doesn't belong anywhere near any list of greatest foreigners of all time if you're talking about skill. Even during his achievements, skill-wise he wasn't really near the top. He way overperformed and made amazing runs - but does that warrant his name being thrown around in this discussion?
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On August 05 2020 19:58 Psychonian wrote:
IdrA should absolutely be at least mentioned here. There's no reasonable argument for him to be above Serral, obviously, but honestly, considering his actual level of play, it was almost against the odds that he didn't win way more than he did. He was a serious favorite to win GSL Open Season 1, and I don't think that was at all an unreasonable idea at the time. He continued to be really dominant in the foreign scene for about a year, and a high level foreigner until his release from EG in 2013.
Idra should get bonus points for being a dominant Zerg in a map pool with Steppes of War and Kulas Ravine. I think Stephano and Jinro weren't that good, they were heavily reliant on imbalance and became irrelevant players as soon as their races got nerfed.
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Idra is overrated in my opinion. He had good macro by WOL standards but apart from that he was not a very good player. I do not think he belongs on a top 10 list over foreigners.
Serral:
Macro 10/10
Micro 9/10
Decision making: 10/10
Mentality: 10/10
Idra:
Macro 8/10
Micro 6/10
Decision making: 4/10
Mentality: 2/10
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On August 05 2020 18:46 virpi wrote:
My list:
1. Serral (There's no debate.)
2. Stephano (The one who made foreign fans believe. Late WoL zerg helped, but he was a pioneer in many ways.)
3. Neeb (He has had some slumps, but he's by far the best foreign P ever.)
4. Snute (The grinder.)
5. Nerchio (Look at esportsearnings. He was more succesful than ppl remember.)
6. Scarlett (Maybe a bit too high...but she's had great success over many years. Sadly, she's woefully inconsistent.)
7. Reynor (Best mechanical player of his generation.)
8. Special (He'd be higher on my list if he had won a big tournament. Best foreign T for me.)
9. Lilbow (insert practice meme here)
10. Naniwa (the true villain of SC2)
CNBC: Clem (skill wise he's outstanding, he needs a big win.), Thorzain (never forget the spoon), Jinro (2 nice GSL runs), Huk (pretty good in the first years of SC2), Mana (He's been here like...forever. And he's still capable of great runs.)
IdrA is hard to rank. His mindset was his biggest enemy.
This is a good list to pull from, however I feel like Reynor gets unfair treatment here just because Serral, you know, exists. If Serral wasn't here we'd all be considering Reynor the current best foreigner, and one of the best foreigners of all time. Now he is so young he won't have the track-record of old timers like Nerchio, but it is hard for me to say that he isn't better than Nerchio. He competes at higher level, beats better opponents and earns higher placements than Nerchio.
Whether Scarlett and Neeb should be ahead of Reynor is much more difficult. They have both won titles versus the Koreans, whereas Reynor's trophies are inside the (stacked but still) EU region and he is one of the only players considered an even matchup vs Serral right now. I think places 3-5 can be split between Neeb, Scarlett and Reynor in any way. Depending on how much one values which trophy (and Scarlett's GSL presence), but they have not done what the two ahead of them have.
Ahead of them, Stephano changed the way everyone played and understood zerg. Serral has done the same, and has enough silverware that he probably has a biannual subscription to trophycabinet delivery service at this point.
Snute, Nerchio, Special all should be the next three players, taking positions 6-8. Again, depending on the exact weighting put on consistency versus peaks, GSL runs vs weekenders etc the internal ranking of this trio can vary. I'd want to rate Snute highest, but then I also think Special could be the best out of these three. Really difficult to say.
Naniwa, Huk, Idra and Thorzain go in here taking places 9-12. All of these players have some trophies and more bitterly ended deep tournament runs and they were some of the earliest foreign torchbearers.
Lilbow I may be biased against because his peak was in a time I wasn't too keen on starcraft. His highs weren't the highest, and his peak was shortlived. Maybe the argument used in putting him higher is that the competition was stronger then, but I cannot use that to justify rating him any higher. I'd actually rate Mana higher than Lilbow, just because of the longevity. He's been around since forever, and hopefully stays too. Not a championship contender vs the top players, but always capable of taking series against just about anyone if it is one of his good days.
Clem, Showtime, Heromarine, Bunny etc etc start from here taking positions 15+ All good players, likely better than some of the people ahead of them in this list, but not enough trophies to show for it.
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On August 05 2020 22:07 Oukka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2020 18:46 virpi wrote:
My list:
1. Serral (There's no debate.)
2. Stephano (The one who made foreign fans believe. Late WoL zerg helped, but he was a pioneer in many ways.)
3. Neeb (He has had some slumps, but he's by far the best foreign P ever.)
4. Snute (The grinder.)
5. Nerchio (Look at esportsearnings. He was more succesful than ppl remember.)
6. Scarlett (Maybe a bit too high...but she's had great success over many years. Sadly, she's woefully inconsistent.)
7. Reynor (Best mechanical player of his generation.)
8. Special (He'd be higher on my list if he had won a big tournament. Best foreign T for me.)
9. Lilbow (insert practice meme here)
10. Naniwa (the true villain of SC2)
CNBC: Clem (skill wise he's outstanding, he needs a big win.), Thorzain (never forget the spoon), Jinro (2 nice GSL runs), Huk (pretty good in the first years of SC2), Mana (He's been here like...forever. And he's still capable of great runs.)
IdrA is hard to rank. His mindset was his biggest enemy. This is a good list to pull from, however I feel like Reynor gets unfair treatment here just because Serral, you know, exists. If Serral wasn't here we'd all be considering Reynor the current best foreigner, and one of the best foreigners of all time. Now he is so young he won't have the track-record of old timers like Nerchio, but it is hard for me to say that he isn't better than Nerchio. He competes at higher level, beats better opponents and earns higher placements than Nerchio. Whether Scarlett and Neeb should be ahead of Reynor is much more difficult. They have both won titles versus the Koreans, whereas Reynor's trophies are inside the (stacked but still) EU region and he is one of the only players considered an even matchup vs Serral right now. I think places 3-5 can be split between Neeb, Scarlett and Reynor in any way. Depending on how much one values which trophy (and Scarlett's GSL presence), but they have not done what the two ahead of them have.
Right now Neeb >>>>>>>> Reynor in a greatest OF ALL TIME discussion.
Doesn't matter that Reynor is better than Neeb right now. It's a GOAT discussion, not a PR discussion
In a year or two, it's highly probable that Reynor > Neeb
Just my 2 cents
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On August 05 2020 20:51 MockHamill wrote:
Idra is overrated in my opinion. He had good macro by WOL standards but apart from that he was not a very good player. I do not think he belongs on a top 10 list over foreigners.
Serral:
Macro 10/10
Micro 9/10
Decision making: 10/10
Mentality: 10/10
Idra:
Macro 8/10
Micro 6/10
Decision making: 4/10
Mentality: 2/10
lol even if i accept your ratings you can not compare players across 2 different eras this way. Saying things like his macro and micro werent as good as serral is not an argument. Mvp, Fruitdealer, whoever you want to name, did not have as good macro or micro as Serral. They hadn't been playing the game for long enough for these skills to fully develop. To rate a player you have to compare them with players from the same era. So a 2010 idra can only be compared with 2010 players respectively.
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Northern Ireland25152 Posts
@Oukka largely agree, I’m not sure Scarlett is in the same conversation as Neeb and Reynor though.
Neeb and Reynor both have had periods stomping foreigners really consistently (the latter with Serral being the sole barrier to total dominance), and Neeb has a better Code S best and Reynor equals hers, with both of them being in Korea much less. Reynor has his Blizzcon silver too. Scarlett’s Pyeongchang win is obviously a rather impressive feather in her cap.
If we’re talking modern active players I’d say that generally people overrate the two long-term Korean-based players in Scarlett and Special and maybe underrate some of the Europeans like Showtime or Elazer slightly.
If I was to tier the vaguely modern era and not consider the previous expansions I guess I’d do it as this
Code Serral - Serral:
He’s smacked foreigners aside for a really long period and showed he’s an equal or indeed better than most Koreans.
Temporary Serral’s - Neeb, Reynor:
Players that have shown they can belong to Code Serral but haven’t sustained it. In Neeb’s case he’s shown it in the past and may yet get back there, in Reynor he’s shown it but the question is can it extend out into the future.
Best of the rest - a long list:
A whole bunch of top players who can beat anyone on their day and are generally consistent performers in foreign tournaments too, but one doesn’t really fancy their chances in taking out a bunch of top Koreans/Serral etc in a row in a bracket, or have other flaws like being inconsistent or predictable.
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On August 05 2020 07:26 ghos`t wrote:
IMO Snute and Lilbow should be on this list; Scarlett and Avilo should not.
Hahaha thanks for the reminder, I had almost forgotten of Lilbow :D
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1) No. Serral is not the GOAT of SC2.
2) This thread can't lead to anything good, so I'm closing it now.
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I've been watching SC2 since the beginning and there's no doubt in my mind it's Serral. No one has even come close as a a foreigner to the type of dominance this dude has had. Like someone else said, it's not even close. No one else has beat koreans as often as he has in high pressure situations.
That being said, I laughed so hard when I saw Avilo was the top voted. God damn it guys..... hahahaha
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On August 06 2020 01:08 AcrossFromTime wrote:
1) No. Serral is not the GOAT of SC2.
2) This thread can't lead to anything good, so I'm closing it now.
1) While I'd agree with you, if you are indeed a moderator, stating a hard personal opinion and then closing a thread seems like a weird way to moderate a forum.
2) Aside from the Serral love/hate, the second best foreigner thing is at least an interesting discussion.
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There is no doubt it's Serral.
I read that he "dominated foreigners" and was the "best of his race for certain times"; you must be joking.
Serral dominated Sc2, koreans included, harder than anyone has ever did; and no, he didn't do it while Zerg was overpowered. After that he was still arguably the best player in the world or at worst one of the best and his consistency is unmatched.
Neeb crushed foreigners pretty hard and took one historic victory on korean soil but he was never especially strong against korean themselves; Stephano, on the other hand, was both a revolutionary in style and a player who could consistently beat top koreans in tournaments. Koreans truly feared and respected him, he gets the second place.
Reynor has emerged in Serral's era and, when he is at his best, he seem to play at the same level Serral does; however, he is still missing a victory in one international tournament even if his second place at BlizzCon is obviously quite relevant.
Naniwa, Snute, Nerchio, Thorzain, Huk, Mana, Scarlett are all a step below that despite being able to win tournaments against koreans.
The new generation of foreigners is promising, I hope it will be able to surprise us.
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On August 05 2020 18:03 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2020 15:23 Let it Raine wrote:
i cant believe people actually think the level of competition is greater now
every single NA pro quit, and a couple newcomers are the only thing keeping the entire continent relevant
Serral is the best foreigner, no one else was as close to relevant. it's just a shame the korean scene is dead enough that new talent doesn't want to pick up the game anymore. The level of play is higher, the level of competition is lower. When KeSPA joined we had like 48 top players, even Code S ro32 was stacked and RO16 was insane. nowadays? Yeah, players may be faster and better, but we have so few of them. FFS nowadays we don't even have Code S ro32 because we don't have the players for it... WITH FOREIGNERS IN IT. Same fall applies to the foreign scene, where we had like 20 top players now we have maybe 10. There's no accident every ro8 looks similar
Agree with this
I tend to think of Stephano as #2
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On August 06 2020 01:08 AcrossFromTime wrote:
1) No. Serral is not the GOAT of SC2.
2) This thread can't lead to anything good, so I'm closing it now.
Are you now?
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On August 05 2020 18:46 virpi wrote:
My list:
1. Serral (There's no debate.)
2. Stephano (The one who made foreign fans believe. Late WoL zerg helped, but he was a pioneer in many ways.)
3. Neeb (He has had some slumps, but he's by far the best foreign P ever.)
4. Snute (The grinder.)
5. Nerchio (Look at esportsearnings. He was more succesful than ppl remember.)
6. Scarlett (Maybe a bit too high...but she's had great success over many years. Sadly, she's woefully inconsistent.)
7. Reynor (Best mechanical player of his generation.)
8. Special (He'd be higher on my list if he had won a big tournament. Best foreign T for me.)
9. Lilbow (insert practice meme here)
10. Naniwa (the true villain of SC2)
CNBC: Clem (skill wise he's outstanding, he needs a big win.), Thorzain (never forget the spoon), Jinro (2 nice GSL runs), Huk (pretty good in the first years of SC2), Mana (He's been here like...forever. And he's still capable of great runs.)
IdrA is hard to rank. His mindset was his biggest enemy.
That's a good list - I'd put only Naniwa higher (4th or 5th) and HuK instead of Lilbow.
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Also success in 2012-2015 against koreans should be valued WAY higher than success against koreans now for obvious reasons.
Still Serral is obviously 1st because his achievements are just way beyond anyone else on this list.
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Mexico2170 Posts
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely middle of the road player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a "patch zerg"? I understand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV.Is that part of it?
I can understand him winning in NA and EU against foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene?
How could he improve so much so fast compared to the rest of the scene? Honestl'y I've seen just his WCS games and a couple more here and there.
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On August 06 2020 03:16 Charoisaur wrote:
Also success in 2012-2015 against koreans should be valued WAY higher than success against koreans now for obvious reasons.
Still Serral is obviously 1st because his achievements are just way beyond anyone else on this list.
I disagree. While depth in Korea is a huge problem, the skill ceiling has not dropped for the top players. So beating Stats, Inno, Rogue, Cure, etc. now is definitely on par with beating Life, MVP, MMA, MC, Nestea or Rain was back in the day.
E: also, lol at some 7-post account having the power to declare this thread closed. Noped.
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France12798 Posts
To Phantom:
He was too young in WoL and HotS to really compete at the highest level, and had school (well you can still play a shit ton in high school but still), so LotV was when he could peak since he was old enough and soon finished high school.
He is strong mechanically but his greatest asset is to try to understand how to play the different situations perfectly.
Patch zerg doesn’t mean shit but zerg has been supremely strong for most of LotV and it helped him a ton.
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On August 06 2020 01:08 AcrossFromTime wrote:
1) No. Serral is not the GOAT of SC2.
2) This thread can't lead to anything good, so I'm closing it now.
I thought this forum was about GFOAT, not GOAT....
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On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a patch zerg? I undertand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV (who would have guessed that the xpac that punish you for staying in few bases, favored the race that can most easily expand). Is that part of it?
I can udnerstand him winning in NA and EU agaisn't foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene?
Serral was a student in WOL and HOTS, so he was only part time SC2 pro, which means he didn't put in as much effort in SC2 since he wanted to get an education.
After he graduated High school sometime in 2017, he burst out in the scene and achieved things no foreigners has ever done before (except Neeb who won the first KR Tournament in 2016). He won 4 WCS tournaments of one year; Won Blizzcon, and beat many top Koreans to do so.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a patch zerg? I undertand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV (who would have guessed that the xpac that punish you for staying in few bases, favored the race that can most easily expand). Is that part of it?
I can udnerstand him winning in NA and EU agaisn't foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene?
Do yourself a favor and watch his series vs Stats in 2018, both the GSL vs the World and Blizzcon one if you find couple of hours to spend. It kinda expresses our argument on how good Serral actually is at his peak.
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On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
It's a combination of all that. Serral is really good but the other things you said are also all true. Except Balance, his only big win that was really tainted by balance was his 2nd GSL vs the world title.
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On August 06 2020 03:31 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 03:16 Charoisaur wrote:
Also success in 2012-2015 against koreans should be valued WAY higher than success against koreans now for obvious reasons.
Still Serral is obviously 1st because his achievements are just way beyond anyone else on this list. I disagree. While depth in Korea is a huge problem, the skill ceiling has not dropped for the top players. So beating Stats, Inno, Rogue, Cure, etc. now is definitely on par with beating Life, MVP, MMA, MC, Nestea or Rain was back in the day. E: also, lol at some 7-post account having the power to declare this thread closed. Noped.
That's highly arguable. Rogue for example admits that he often has no motivation to practice at all and yet he remains one of the top dogs in the scene. I wouldn't put that on par with beating top koreans back when they were all practicing all day in Kespa houses.
E: also, lol at some 7-post account having the power to declare this thread closed. Noped.
that's copy-pasted from here https://tl.net/forum/closed-threads/561861-is-serral-the-goat-of-sc2?page=2
At first I thought it's a bot but his other posts seem legit.
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I guess it is obvious that Serral is number one, has it ever been the case that a foreigner is consistently deemed to be the favorite in every single match against Koreans?
At the same time, his success comes during what is possibly the twilight years of SC2. It is just not likely that the best of young, promising talent choose to pick up sc2. Also, throughout his success zerg has been in a good spot. Being dominant with a race unfavored by the meta makes for a more impressive feat and a better story (kind of like a Bisu or saviOr perhaps). Where would Serral be had he picked a different race? There has never been a consistently strong foreign terran. Is that race just off limits for foreigners?
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On August 06 2020 03:44 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a patch zerg? I undertand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV (who would have guessed that the xpac that punish you for staying in few bases, favored the race that can most easily expand). Is that part of it?
I can udnerstand him winning in NA and EU agaisn't foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene? Do yourself a favor and watch his series vs Stats in 2018, both the GSL vs the World and Blizzcon one if you find couple of hours to spend. It kinda expresses our argument on how good Serral actually is at his peak.
Also, watch g4 of Serral vs Rogue at BlizzCon and look at Rogue's face towards the end. Rogue said in the interviews that he was the strongest Zerg(or something like that).
People here are not mentioning that Serral won every offline series he played in nine months(lost one online), including the best streak against koreans ever.
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On August 06 2020 03:59 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 03:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a patch zerg? I undertand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV (who would have guessed that the xpac that punish you for staying in few bases, favored the race that can most easily expand). Is that part of it?
I can udnerstand him winning in NA and EU agaisn't foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene? Do yourself a favor and watch his series vs Stats in 2018, both the GSL vs the World and Blizzcon one if you find couple of hours to spend. It kinda expresses our argument on how good Serral actually is at his peak. People here are not mentioning that Serral won every offline series he played in nine months(lost one online), including the best streak against koreans ever.
Good that we have Xainon here who always mentions it at every opportunity.
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Mexico2170 Posts
Oh I didn't know he was that young. Yeah that definitely plays a big part of it.
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Just a reminder, that TL voting has been used multiple times for huge prize pool tournements.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 05 2020 20:51 MockHamill wrote:
Idra is overrated in my opinion. He had good macro by WOL standards but apart from that he was not a very good player. I do not think he belongs on a top 10 list over foreigners.
Serral:
Macro 10/10
Micro 9/10
Decision making: 10/10
Mentality: 10/10
Idra:
Macro 8/10
Micro 6/10
Decision making: 4/10
Mentality: 2/10
lol, you're totally off. Just rewatch some Day9 dailies about Idra. he was the best macro player. That's why he insisted to play macro games... micro 6/10? You do realize he's like the only foreigner who was on the KeSPA team, right? some fanboys.
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France12798 Posts
IdrA was good-ish but had no real deep run in the GSL and was rapidly outshined in foreign tournaments by Stephano so there is no reason to talk about him if even Jinro doesn't make the cut. ThorZain on the other hand had really solid results. LucifroN was also one of the most talented terran players but unfortunately peaked during broodlord infestor, so his results didn't even match those of his lesser talented (imo) brother VortiX.
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On August 06 2020 03:59 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 03:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a patch zerg? I undertand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV (who would have guessed that the xpac that punish you for staying in few bases, favored the race that can most easily expand). Is that part of it?
I can udnerstand him winning in NA and EU agaisn't foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene? Do yourself a favor and watch his series vs Stats in 2018, both the GSL vs the World and Blizzcon one if you find couple of hours to spend. It kinda expresses our argument on how good Serral actually is at his peak. People here are not mentioning that Serral won every offline series he played in nine months(lost one online), including the best streak against koreans ever.
Serral has some really incredible acheivements that people in this thread have pointed out, but winning every series for nine months is considerably less impressive than it sounds when you realise he only entered two big tournaments (that included koreans) during that time.
How many players have won two big tournaments in a row? Quite a few.
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On August 06 2020 03:55 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 03:31 Acrofales wrote:On August 06 2020 03:16 Charoisaur wrote:
Also success in 2012-2015 against koreans should be valued WAY higher than success against koreans now for obvious reasons.
Still Serral is obviously 1st because his achievements are just way beyond anyone else on this list. I disagree. While depth in Korea is a huge problem, the skill ceiling has not dropped for the top players. So beating Stats, Inno, Rogue, Cure, etc. now is definitely on par with beating Life, MVP, MMA, MC, Nestea or Rain was back in the day. E: also, lol at some 7-post account having the power to declare this thread closed. Noped. That's highly arguable. Rogue for example admits that he often has no motivation to practice at all and yet he remains one of the top dogs in the scene. I wouldn't put that on par with beating top koreans back when they were all practicing all day in Kespa houses. Show nested quote +
E: also, lol at some 7-post account having the power to declare this thread closed. Noped.
that's copy-pasted from here https://tl.net/forum/closed-threads/561861-is-serral-the-goat-of-sc2?page=2 At first I thought it's a bot but his other posts seem legit.
Individual really talented players sometimes not practicing yet still performing is not something unique to nowadays. MC (and infamously among foreigners, Stephano) also decided to just not practice for long stretches. On the other side of the spectrum, there's players who just grind grind grind. I haven't read many interviews from 2015/16, but do you think Rogue is a significantly different person now compared to then? And there are other players who aren't exactly known for their practice regime, although of course being under a strict contract and living in a team house probably heeped on both contractual and peer pressure to practice even if you didn't feel it.
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On August 06 2020 04:32 Poopi wrote:
IdrA was good-ish but had no real deep run in the GSL and was rapidly outshined in foreign tournaments by Stephano so there is no reason to talk about him if even Jinro doesn't make the cut. ThorZain on the other hand had really solid results. LucifroN was also one of the most talented terran players but unfortunately peaked during broodlord infestor, so his results didn't even match those of his lesser talented (imo) brother VortiX.
ro8 gsl defeating people like genius and nada is not good enough for you?
also when Stephano became the best foreigner this was not the same IdrA as 2010/2011. He was hating the game and considering retiring. Despite this in the 2012 world championship he still 2-0d Stephano and 2-0d RorO. Both were arguably at their peak.
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On August 06 2020 04:45 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 03:59 Xain0n wrote:On August 06 2020 03:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a patch zerg? I undertand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV (who would have guessed that the xpac that punish you for staying in few bases, favored the race that can most easily expand). Is that part of it?
I can udnerstand him winning in NA and EU agaisn't foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene? Do yourself a favor and watch his series vs Stats in 2018, both the GSL vs the World and Blizzcon one if you find couple of hours to spend. It kinda expresses our argument on how good Serral actually is at his peak. People here are not mentioning that Serral won every offline series he played in nine months(lost one online), including the best streak against koreans ever. Serral has some really incredible acheivements that people in this thread have pointed out, but winning every series for nine months is considerably less impressive than it sounds when you realise he only entered two big tournaments (that included koreans) during that time. How many players have won two big tournaments in a row? Quite a few.
Won 7 premier tournaments in 12 months. Nice try tho.
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On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a "patch zerg"? I understand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV.Is that part of it?
I can understand him winning in NA and EU against foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene?
How could he improve so much so fast compared to the rest of the scene? Honestl'y I've seen just his WCS games and a couple more here and there.
weird that youre a writer if youve been gone so long ... "relatively well" the guy has like 12 premier tournament wins (im not sure what the actual count is anymore but itd be about that).
Edit: confirmed it is 12 premier wins. Also 5 silver so 17 finals. Which is part of why he is GOAT contender status. He has consistently made the best in Korea look like chumps and all Koreans respect him as the one to beat these days.
As others have said he was young in Hots. He broke out end of 2017 and went on the most dominant run in sc2 ever in 2018, lkind of into 2019 too , although lots of people like to point out one or two losses there and say he was awful im 2019 lol. He has been highest rank on aligulac for over 2 years, reynor has very recently passed him though.
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Northern Ireland25152 Posts
On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a "patch zerg"? I understand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV.Is that part of it?
I can understand him winning in NA and EU against foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene?
How could he improve so much so fast compared to the rest of the scene? Honestl'y I've seen just his WCS games and a couple more here and there.
I too took a break and Serral was also new on me too, so enjoy discovering him and his chops!
I’d say he’s the most relentlessly consistent player I’ve seen. Doesn’t mean to say the outright best.
His mechanics are phenomenal, his game sense, scouting and reads and strategy in game are phenomenal, and he plays Zerg, the best race for a good defensive macro player with great mechanics.
Really bloody good player all round! Aside from tournament game’s I’d recommend just searching ‘Serral’ stream on YouTube there’s some good FPVoDs where he commentates too if you wanted to check that out.
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On August 06 2020 03:31 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 03:16 Charoisaur wrote:
Also success in 2012-2015 against koreans should be valued WAY higher than success against koreans now for obvious reasons.
Still Serral is obviously 1st because his achievements are just way beyond anyone else on this list. I disagree. While depth in Korea is a huge problem, the skill ceiling has not dropped for the top players. So beating Stats, Inno, Rogue, Cure, etc. now is definitely on par with beating Life, MVP, MMA, MC, Nestea or Rain was back in the day. E: also, lol at some 7-post account having the power to declare this thread closed. Noped.
I think this is a pretty bad take lol. The players aren't worse than their former selves. But imagine a scenario where Kespa continues and is still going, all the current players you mentioned would be far better today due to coaching and practice regimes (not to mention financial incentive).
Also something I think is missing from this conversation is the fact that what separated Koreans from foreigners previously wasn't the nationality, being Korean doesn't imbue you with SC powers, but the infrastructure. I don't think its a coincidence that once the infrastructure playing field has been leveled that now you see more foreigners competing with and beating Koreans.
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On August 06 2020 05:28 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 04:45 Fango wrote:On August 06 2020 03:59 Xain0n wrote:On August 06 2020 03:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a patch zerg? I undertand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV (who would have guessed that the xpac that punish you for staying in few bases, favored the race that can most easily expand). Is that part of it?
I can udnerstand him winning in NA and EU agaisn't foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene? Do yourself a favor and watch his series vs Stats in 2018, both the GSL vs the World and Blizzcon one if you find couple of hours to spend. It kinda expresses our argument on how good Serral actually is at his peak. People here are not mentioning that Serral won every offline series he played in nine months(lost one online), including the best streak against koreans ever. Serral has some really incredible acheivements that people in this thread have pointed out, but winning every series for nine months is considerably less impressive than it sounds when you realise he only entered two big tournaments (that included koreans) during that time. How many players have won two big tournaments in a row? Quite a few. Won 7 premier tournaments in 12 months. Nice try tho.
How many of them had a single korean player in?
Winning tournaments against other foreigners is a perfectly fine metric for comparing someone to those other foreigners (one of the reasons why Serral is unanimously considered the best of them). Not so much for comparing someone to koreans. Dare I say they're entirely irrelevant in that conversation
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On August 06 2020 01:08 AcrossFromTime wrote:
1) No. Serral is not the GOAT of SC2.
2) This thread can't lead to anything good, so I'm closing it now.
Still waiting mate, do you need help finding the right button?
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1. Adding Avilo to gain Clickbait views to your thread is quite smart.
2. Except for Neeb, who never won an non-NA tournament after Protoss was nerfed hard for a couple of patches, no one has ever dominated foreign tournaments like Serral has.
3. He and 1 other zerg (Reynor, his only rival) have dominated the foreign scene even AFTER some major nerfs to their race (Serrals Domination began in 2018 before the nydus buffs and while the carrier was still considered OP)
3. Several Koreans pros have said repeatedly that Serral is the best player and that they are scared of playing him or want to play him because he is the best in the past (Interviews in the 2nd HSC 2018 eg.) This has never been the case before for any Korean player.
4. He won 2 GSL vs the Worlds (2018+2019). Even tho this is not completly comparable to a full GSL season, his brackets were still extremely tough by names in the korean scene (stats, dark, innovation, TY, trap). This was done after a lot of his builds were known due to his foreign games and he did not use any "special builds" like Zest in IEM katowice 2019.
5. "This is not the highest skill era and koreans are not trying so Serrals wins are meaningless"
1) this is diminished because we are discussing the best FOREIGNER of all time. which he would be without the
Koreans "slacking"
2) Koreans are cleary still trying and most of the best players are still trying. This may not be the most competitive
korean era but our favorite korean heroes have obv. learned from the past. 2015/6 does not compare to current
year skillwise.
Disclaimer: I am not a big Serral fan and I like Reynors playstyle better and I was a big Stephano fan in the past. Pretending like he is not the foreign goat is [......] <---insert favorite diminishing word here. For years foreigners only dreamt of anyone coming close to winning Blizzcon. Special vs Elazer 2017 in semis wasnt nearly as impactful as his win in 2018. Of course it was a big accomplishment but a full korean bracket is very different from meeting a foreigner in RO8.
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She is the only player to be among the top for the entire SC2 lifetime
Haven't read every post but I have to nitpick here and state that she wasn't part of the pro scene for the first year of WOL.
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I don't think Stephano deserves to be called a patch zerg. His main problem since 2013 has been European ZvZ, whether it is Snute and Nechio or Elazer and Serral. He nas been pretty good at non-mirror match-ups even in "retirement", but ZvZ has been his downfall.
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Edit: Responding to Fango here
Well, he won HSC right after GSLvW and Blizzcon, so thats 3 in in a row, no? And that was against a lot of Koreans, no? Are you seriously making the "Foreigner never plays Koreans" argument for Serral? He has an insane win rate against them and has played them tons since 2017. Not trying to stroke Serral here, but hearing this old talking point just triggers me.
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I summon thee Nakajin!
Make thy poll for GFOAT. It has to be answered!
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 06 2020 05:28 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 04:45 Fango wrote:On August 06 2020 03:59 Xain0n wrote:On August 06 2020 03:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a patch zerg? I undertand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV (who would have guessed that the xpac that punish you for staying in few bases, favored the race that can most easily expand). Is that part of it?
I can udnerstand him winning in NA and EU agaisn't foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene? Do yourself a favor and watch his series vs Stats in 2018, both the GSL vs the World and Blizzcon one if you find couple of hours to spend. It kinda expresses our argument on how good Serral actually is at his peak. People here are not mentioning that Serral won every offline series he played in nine months(lost one online), including the best streak against koreans ever. Serral has some really incredible acheivements that people in this thread have pointed out, but winning every series for nine months is considerably less impressive than it sounds when you realise he only entered two big tournaments (that included koreans) during that time. How many players have won two big tournaments in a row? Quite a few. Won 7 premier tournaments in 12 months. Nice try tho.
In 3 years won 1 WC title. IN the same time span ROgue won 3. While ROgue didn't win every series he has better achievements, IMO that's the point they're trying to make.
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Nooooo. We are doomed!
On August 06 2020 17:07 deacon.frost wrote:
In 3 years won 1 WC title. IN the same time span ROgue won 3. While ROgue didn't win every series he has better achievements, IMO that's the point they're trying to make.
Cheery picking again?
If you see 3 titles for Rogue, I see 4 titles for Serral ....
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On August 06 2020 17:10 Harris1st wrote:Nooooo. We are doomed! Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 17:07 deacon.frost wrote:
In 3 years won 1 WC title. IN the same time span ROgue won 3. While ROgue didn't win every series he has better achievements, IMO that's the point they're trying to make. Cheery picking again? If you see 3 titles for Rogue, I see 4 titles for Serral ....
It s not even relevant here, if Serral or Rogue is the better Player.
It s about greatest foreigner and that is without a doubt Serral.
Edit: holy shit, didn t look at the actual Poll since the first day this was posted, wth is happening here?
I was just ignoring that Avilo was even an opotion, as it s some kind of realy unapropriated joke. But Thausands of people voting for one of the worst persons in recent SC2 history? What is wrong with you? I don t care if it s a meme, I just think it s not apropriate..
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the number of votes in a short space of time is impressive
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Lol. Would one of TL.net's greatest give a short explanation where the avilo votes come from? I'm curious if this is like an Elazer level Youtube stunt or if TL.net people really love trolling that much
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I don't think comparing results straight up is fair measure here. While its true that protoss contenders haven't won much, neither have korean protosses outside of blink era. Last normal GSL win for protoss is from 2017.
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On August 06 2020 18:16 Harris1st wrote:
Lol. Would one of TL.net's greatest give a short explanation where the avilo votes come from? I'm curious if this is like an Elazer level Youtube stunt or if TL.net people really love trolling that much
Don't need to be logged in, so I suspect it isn't actually 3000 people, but rather Avilo running a bot, or maybe a random troll.
Internet polls are total shit. More news at 11.
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On August 06 2020 18:40 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 18:16 Harris1st wrote:
Lol. Would one of TL.net's greatest give a short explanation where the avilo votes come from? I'm curious if this is like an Elazer level Youtube stunt or if TL.net people really love trolling that much Don't need to be logged in, so I suspect it isn't actually 3000 people, but rather Avilo running a bot, or maybe a random troll. Internet polls are total shit. More news at 11.
But why? 
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Northern Ireland25152 Posts
On August 06 2020 18:40 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 18:16 Harris1st wrote:
Lol. Would one of TL.net's greatest give a short explanation where the avilo votes come from? I'm curious if this is like an Elazer level Youtube stunt or if TL.net people really love trolling that much Don't need to be logged in, so I suspect it isn't actually 3000 people, but rather Avilo running a bot, or maybe a random troll. Internet polls are total shit. More news at 11.
Boaty McBoatface confirmed the SC2 GOAT.
I don’t really mind Avilo being a meme option on account of the OP, judging from the thread/my other SC buddies plenty are unaware of his behaviour outside of being a huge balance whiner.
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Lol... nice hypocrisy to keep this thread open.
The same arguments used to compare Serral to koreans are being used to compare other foreigners to Serral.
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On August 05 2020 15:23 Let it Raine wrote:
i cant believe people actually think the level of competition is greater now
every single NA pro quit, and a couple newcomers are the only thing keeping the entire continent relevant
Serral is the best foreigner, no one else was as close to relevant. it's just a shame the korean scene is dead enough that new talent doesn't want to pick up the game anymore.
The competition is much higher now and it’s not to be challenged. I agree that if all the Koreans had not quit, Serral might not be the best. There were hundreds and hundreds of Koreans that could be grandmaster on all servers if they were to come back RIGHT NOW. Korean scene used to be heavily saturated in Wol which makes Stephano and Naniwas reign very impressive.
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I'm torn between Ptitdrogo for his memes or Rotterdam because he's the one who participated to the most tournaments
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I always vote for the joke option on principle. Avilo is a scumbag but he isn't the one who made the poll.
Anywas, what I can see from this thread is that people tend to overrate the earliest like Idra and Jinro and the most recent results, though Serral is indeniably impressive. My assessment is, there is no greatest foreigner. There were great foreigners, but none that can be said for of all time. Stephano possibly for revolutionising 2 whole matchups for the Koreans, which nobody else has done.
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Get avilo's name out of there please... guy is a suspected woman abuser, banned from various events, needs help for his mental health issues, etc.. And of course it completely ruins the poll.
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I actually think prize money is a good way to rank players, especially if you compare foreigner vs foreigner.
1. Serral: $845,095
11. Neeb $508,479
27. Stephano $295,661
35. Reynor $248,770
113. IdrA $64,643
In other words no non-korean is even close to Serral. Neeb is second, 11th in overall prize money. I included Reynor, Stephano och Idra for comparison.
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EPT
