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On August 06 2020 03:31 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 03:16 Charoisaur wrote:
Also success in 2012-2015 against koreans should be valued WAY higher than success against koreans now for obvious reasons.
Still Serral is obviously 1st because his achievements are just way beyond anyone else on this list. I disagree. While depth in Korea is a huge problem, the skill ceiling has not dropped for the top players. So beating Stats, Inno, Rogue, Cure, etc. now is definitely on par with beating Life, MVP, MMA, MC, Nestea or Rain was back in the day. E: also, lol at some 7-post account having the power to declare this thread closed. Noped.
I think this is a pretty bad take lol. The players aren't worse than their former selves. But imagine a scenario where Kespa continues and is still going, all the current players you mentioned would be far better today due to coaching and practice regimes (not to mention financial incentive).
Also something I think is missing from this conversation is the fact that what separated Koreans from foreigners previously wasn't the nationality, being Korean doesn't imbue you with SC powers, but the infrastructure. I don't think its a coincidence that once the infrastructure playing field has been leveled that now you see more foreigners competing with and beating Koreans.
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On August 06 2020 05:28 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 04:45 Fango wrote:On August 06 2020 03:59 Xain0n wrote:On August 06 2020 03:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a patch zerg? I undertand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV (who would have guessed that the xpac that punish you for staying in few bases, favored the race that can most easily expand). Is that part of it?
I can udnerstand him winning in NA and EU agaisn't foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene? Do yourself a favor and watch his series vs Stats in 2018, both the GSL vs the World and Blizzcon one if you find couple of hours to spend. It kinda expresses our argument on how good Serral actually is at his peak. People here are not mentioning that Serral won every offline series he played in nine months(lost one online), including the best streak against koreans ever. Serral has some really incredible acheivements that people in this thread have pointed out, but winning every series for nine months is considerably less impressive than it sounds when you realise he only entered two big tournaments (that included koreans) during that time. How many players have won two big tournaments in a row? Quite a few. Won 7 premier tournaments in 12 months. Nice try tho.
How many of them had a single korean player in?
Winning tournaments against other foreigners is a perfectly fine metric for comparing someone to those other foreigners (one of the reasons why Serral is unanimously considered the best of them). Not so much for comparing someone to koreans. Dare I say they're entirely irrelevant in that conversation
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On August 06 2020 01:08 AcrossFromTime wrote:
1) No. Serral is not the GOAT of SC2.
2) This thread can't lead to anything good, so I'm closing it now.
Still waiting mate, do you need help finding the right button?
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1. Adding Avilo to gain Clickbait views to your thread is quite smart.
2. Except for Neeb, who never won an non-NA tournament after Protoss was nerfed hard for a couple of patches, no one has ever dominated foreign tournaments like Serral has.
3. He and 1 other zerg (Reynor, his only rival) have dominated the foreign scene even AFTER some major nerfs to their race (Serrals Domination began in 2018 before the nydus buffs and while the carrier was still considered OP)
3. Several Koreans pros have said repeatedly that Serral is the best player and that they are scared of playing him or want to play him because he is the best in the past (Interviews in the 2nd HSC 2018 eg.) This has never been the case before for any Korean player.
4. He won 2 GSL vs the Worlds (2018+2019). Even tho this is not completly comparable to a full GSL season, his brackets were still extremely tough by names in the korean scene (stats, dark, innovation, TY, trap). This was done after a lot of his builds were known due to his foreign games and he did not use any "special builds" like Zest in IEM katowice 2019.
5. "This is not the highest skill era and koreans are not trying so Serrals wins are meaningless"
1) this is diminished because we are discussing the best FOREIGNER of all time. which he would be without the
Koreans "slacking"
2) Koreans are cleary still trying and most of the best players are still trying. This may not be the most competitive
korean era but our favorite korean heroes have obv. learned from the past. 2015/6 does not compare to current
year skillwise.
Disclaimer: I am not a big Serral fan and I like Reynors playstyle better and I was a big Stephano fan in the past. Pretending like he is not the foreign goat is [......] <---insert favorite diminishing word here. For years foreigners only dreamt of anyone coming close to winning Blizzcon. Special vs Elazer 2017 in semis wasnt nearly as impactful as his win in 2018. Of course it was a big accomplishment but a full korean bracket is very different from meeting a foreigner in RO8.
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She is the only player to be among the top for the entire SC2 lifetime
Haven't read every post but I have to nitpick here and state that she wasn't part of the pro scene for the first year of WOL.
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I don't think Stephano deserves to be called a patch zerg. His main problem since 2013 has been European ZvZ, whether it is Snute and Nechio or Elazer and Serral. He nas been pretty good at non-mirror match-ups even in "retirement", but ZvZ has been his downfall.
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Edit: Responding to Fango here
Well, he won HSC right after GSLvW and Blizzcon, so thats 3 in in a row, no? And that was against a lot of Koreans, no? Are you seriously making the "Foreigner never plays Koreans" argument for Serral? He has an insane win rate against them and has played them tons since 2017. Not trying to stroke Serral here, but hearing this old talking point just triggers me.
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I summon thee Nakajin!
Make thy poll for GFOAT. It has to be answered!
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 06 2020 05:28 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 04:45 Fango wrote:On August 06 2020 03:59 Xain0n wrote:On August 06 2020 03:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 06 2020 03:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Could you guys explain Serral to me? I've played from WoL to Lotv but took a break after LotV came out.
From what I know of Serral, he was a nobody, an absolutely worse than mediocre player from WoL to HosT. No one would bet anything for him and he didn't win anything.
Even in LotV he had only ok results. Then suddenly, from nowhere, he wins the WCS and the qualifier tournaments leading up to that.
Is he a patch zerg? I undertand some people might get angry with that question, he being the foreigner hope and the only one to win a WCS, but is he really that good?
Zerg has been doing great all LotV (who would have guessed that the xpac that punish you for staying in few bases, favored the race that can most easily expand). Is that part of it?
I can udnerstand him winning in NA and EU agaisn't foreigners, and he AFAIK hasn't played ever in the GSL. But then there is the world championship which he won, and since then it seems he has continued to do relatively well.
There's also the fact that since the fall of KeSPA a lot of Korean pros have retired or stopped practicing as hard as they used to.
So for those who were actualyl there in 2018 (I think it was 2018?) Is Serral really that good? or was his WCS win a combination of playing against foreigners, koreans practicing less, balance, and getting into a good level skill wise to win matches where others couldn't.
Is he a macro zerg? is he a cheeser like SoS? What's his story really? Is he really as good as TL thinks he is since people here are calling him GOAT contender? Or is he the product of being a good player in a decadent scene? Do yourself a favor and watch his series vs Stats in 2018, both the GSL vs the World and Blizzcon one if you find couple of hours to spend. It kinda expresses our argument on how good Serral actually is at his peak. People here are not mentioning that Serral won every offline series he played in nine months(lost one online), including the best streak against koreans ever. Serral has some really incredible acheivements that people in this thread have pointed out, but winning every series for nine months is considerably less impressive than it sounds when you realise he only entered two big tournaments (that included koreans) during that time. How many players have won two big tournaments in a row? Quite a few. Won 7 premier tournaments in 12 months. Nice try tho.
In 3 years won 1 WC title. IN the same time span ROgue won 3. While ROgue didn't win every series he has better achievements, IMO that's the point they're trying to make.
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Nooooo. We are doomed!
On August 06 2020 17:07 deacon.frost wrote:
In 3 years won 1 WC title. IN the same time span ROgue won 3. While ROgue didn't win every series he has better achievements, IMO that's the point they're trying to make.
Cheery picking again?
If you see 3 titles for Rogue, I see 4 titles for Serral ....
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On August 06 2020 17:10 Harris1st wrote:Nooooo. We are doomed! Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 17:07 deacon.frost wrote:
In 3 years won 1 WC title. IN the same time span ROgue won 3. While ROgue didn't win every series he has better achievements, IMO that's the point they're trying to make. Cheery picking again? If you see 3 titles for Rogue, I see 4 titles for Serral ....
It s not even relevant here, if Serral or Rogue is the better Player.
It s about greatest foreigner and that is without a doubt Serral.
Edit: holy shit, didn t look at the actual Poll since the first day this was posted, wth is happening here?
I was just ignoring that Avilo was even an opotion, as it s some kind of realy unapropriated joke. But Thausands of people voting for one of the worst persons in recent SC2 history? What is wrong with you? I don t care if it s a meme, I just think it s not apropriate..
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the number of votes in a short space of time is impressive
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Lol. Would one of TL.net's greatest give a short explanation where the avilo votes come from? I'm curious if this is like an Elazer level Youtube stunt or if TL.net people really love trolling that much
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I don't think comparing results straight up is fair measure here. While its true that protoss contenders haven't won much, neither have korean protosses outside of blink era. Last normal GSL win for protoss is from 2017.
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On August 06 2020 18:16 Harris1st wrote:
Lol. Would one of TL.net's greatest give a short explanation where the avilo votes come from? I'm curious if this is like an Elazer level Youtube stunt or if TL.net people really love trolling that much
Don't need to be logged in, so I suspect it isn't actually 3000 people, but rather Avilo running a bot, or maybe a random troll.
Internet polls are total shit. More news at 11.
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On August 06 2020 18:40 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 18:16 Harris1st wrote:
Lol. Would one of TL.net's greatest give a short explanation where the avilo votes come from? I'm curious if this is like an Elazer level Youtube stunt or if TL.net people really love trolling that much Don't need to be logged in, so I suspect it isn't actually 3000 people, but rather Avilo running a bot, or maybe a random troll. Internet polls are total shit. More news at 11.
But why? 
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Northern Ireland25250 Posts
On August 06 2020 18:40 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 18:16 Harris1st wrote:
Lol. Would one of TL.net's greatest give a short explanation where the avilo votes come from? I'm curious if this is like an Elazer level Youtube stunt or if TL.net people really love trolling that much Don't need to be logged in, so I suspect it isn't actually 3000 people, but rather Avilo running a bot, or maybe a random troll. Internet polls are total shit. More news at 11.
Boaty McBoatface confirmed the SC2 GOAT.
I don’t really mind Avilo being a meme option on account of the OP, judging from the thread/my other SC buddies plenty are unaware of his behaviour outside of being a huge balance whiner.
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Lol... nice hypocrisy to keep this thread open.
The same arguments used to compare Serral to koreans are being used to compare other foreigners to Serral.
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On August 05 2020 15:23 Let it Raine wrote:
i cant believe people actually think the level of competition is greater now
every single NA pro quit, and a couple newcomers are the only thing keeping the entire continent relevant
Serral is the best foreigner, no one else was as close to relevant. it's just a shame the korean scene is dead enough that new talent doesn't want to pick up the game anymore.
The competition is much higher now and it’s not to be challenged. I agree that if all the Koreans had not quit, Serral might not be the best. There were hundreds and hundreds of Koreans that could be grandmaster on all servers if they were to come back RIGHT NOW. Korean scene used to be heavily saturated in Wol which makes Stephano and Naniwas reign very impressive.
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EPT
