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fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
June 28 2007 15:20 GMT
#21
This would mean you can't use your mouse at all while making the mother ship.

Left hand. | Right hand.
vdsa | nkl;
asdv | ;lkn
qq | pp

The final move will involve your entire left hand making a chopping motion on the left hand side of the keyboard:

[esc]
~
[tab]
[caps lock]
[shift]
[ctrl]

You would have to hit all these keys at once... like your making a karatie chop on your keyboard.

So basically mortal combat + starcraft?
Do you really want chat rooms?
intrigue
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-06-28 16:22:52
June 28 2007 16:07 GMT
#22
i really like innovation of the game but the intentional complication of controls seems extremely silly - how realistic (as much as possible in a fictional game set in the future in deep space with three races battling each other) is it to make the interface even more difficult to use?

part of starcraft's challenge is the mechanics, which is a disgustingly simple system with an already extremely high skill ceiling. handspeed and accuracy as it is now is a huge part of the game even for pros (exe, how many can successfully execute reaver/sair and skterran, or multitask like savior?) and this is just overstressing it - it'd be a huge turnoff when it automatically culls newbies by the masses. on the same note droves of good players will eventually master the keyboard patterns until they are nothing more than an annoyance: do you want to be watching a professional game come down very close, and instead of one player winning by mindfucking ingenuity, the other player just slips in some combination? yes, consistency is a part of skill and even 100% of skill in some games, but it should not matter to this degree in starcraft.

so while i do want to see challenging mechanics again in starcraft 2, i don't want a system that can directly interfere with other aspects of the game, or hog a player's priorities. keep it clean or make it cleaner as long as the endless potential stays.




you bring up a very interesting idea though which i think is pretty cool. taking away building by mouse will help a lot of people get closer to their potential by emphasizing keyboard usage. the downside would be a bit more unfriendliness towards beginners.

i have know a few people who i just wish could see me play first person, not because i'm amazing, but because their use of hotkeys is awful and really, really holds them back. the problem cascades too: too much reliance on the mouse means less free time (normally gained by efficient keyboard use) to be spent on other things, meaning a lower speed ceiling translating into worse multitask and micro/macro, which again translates into practice time wasted trying to fix these things instead of thinking about strategy and builds.

on another note i never really thought about it but yeah beyond hard dedicated practice koreans must really benefit from seeing each other play in person and being close with other gamers. while we have to type out our shit in [help] threads and make fpvods with commentaries, they can just meet up at a pcbang, watch, and ask questions!
Moderatorhttps://soundcloud.com/castlesmusic/sets/oak
intrigue
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
June 28 2007 16:27 GMT
#23
by the way what do you mean by toss hand positions? like 3d4d5d6d 1a2a3a 0p9p8p ttttttaaaahhhhhrrrriiiiii (for microing)?
Moderatorhttps://soundcloud.com/castlesmusic/sets/oak
useLess
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States4781 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-06-28 16:42:01
June 28 2007 16:40 GMT
#24
Also, this is a better (but different) Beatmania vid. Sound quality is a little better and has less pronounced clacking.


Moonlight Shadow
Navane
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Netherlands2748 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-06-28 16:47:00
June 28 2007 16:45 GMT
#25
On June 28 2007 19:47 MyLostTemple wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

Alright... as we all know, starcraft is a unique RTS in many ways. One of the ways starcraft has always seemed the most unique to me was in it's use of the keyboard. Have you ever watched other RTS games played live by top players? They don't use the keyboard a tenth as much as a Starcraft player does. We play an incredibly difficult mind game while our left hand glides over the keyboard with precision and and style. This makes Starcraft possibly the most difficult game ever created. We're hitting combos on our keyboard like it's street fighter, meanwhile out positioning our opponents like chess. But there's even more than this going on.

Have you ever noticed the patterns on your keyboard? Most of the starcraft i talk to who aren't koreans don't... Here are a few of my favorite keyboard combinations 4d5d6d7d8d9d0d (i've just made seven dragoons in half a second), 0p9p8o (two probes from my nexus and then an observer), 4z5z6z7t8t9t0t (three zeals, four temps... i'll prob morph one group into an archon ; ). I know exactly which fingers to use on which keys and it allows me to get big tasks out of the way more quickly so i can focus the rest of my energy on strategy. As most koreans do, and foreigners don't, you can practice these keyboard combinations even if your not playing starcraft... Just practice them in wordpad or something.

In my own mind... Starcraft has always reminded me of a game that Day[9] and me grew up playing together as children. Beatmania. We love this game btw.



This game has always struck me as remarkably similar to starcraft. Obviously he's not out thinking someone... but his hands are tapping the keys rapidly in a pattern. In starcraft we have a bigger controller and we play the entire thing with our left hand (because we're SO GOD DAMN SEXY! ; ). Mastering patterns with your left hand can greatly help increase your skill... I'll play another song i like to play when I'm doing some PvT fast nexus on Gaia. I named it 'Eschobars Nightmare' becuase i actually name all my builds after i write them out (nerd pride folks)... Here, i'll play it for you now:

0p0p0pbp0p0p0p0p0pbn
0pbg0pba0p0pbybg4z0p
9p9pbp4d5d6s0p9pbp4d <-- 6s is me making dragoon range.
5d0p9pbp0p9p4d5dbn0p
9p4d5dbp0p9pvrbgbg

there may be a few mistakes... that was just from memory, when i play it's easier to do because seeing my food/money/army helps me stay on top of the next few notes i have to play. There's also another branch i can easily transition into if i want to get my two gateways and robo before my second nexus. My music can take me to many places ;D

Originally i was opposed to MBS... you can see me ranting like a lunatic about it in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=All&topic_id=53602&show_part=
After thinking it over i think MBS will allow for more difficult patterns to master while playing the game. I want to see for myself first, but i think it will be good...

But i want more... i want more sexy things i can do with my keyboard. I want it to be a step up from starcraft! Here's my ideas.

Upgrades:

Why do we need one hotkey for an upgrade? That's too simple... i already know a basic combo i can do to upgrade out of three forges fast... everyone knows it. w [click] a [click] s [click]. Now i've upgraded out of three forges in a second. But wouldn't it be cooler if i had a special combination i had to do for just one upgrade? What if for my level one attack upgrade i had to do this combination on the keyboard:

wga <--- this combination would take three fingers, obviously you can do it quickly, but this would follow the basic keyboard pattern logic starcraft was based off of...

what about a level two weapons upgrade?

wgart <--- now it's four fingers instead of three. Better upgrades = harder combos.

What about level three?

wgart[space] <--- now i've used five fingers (thumb on space) to get a level three upgrade.

If a player does this combination wrong he is punished and has to start over again. We could do different cool patterns depending on the race and the upgrade.

But i want more still...
What about that mother ship? It seems like it could kick some ass. But if i find out the mother ship is easy to make (hotkeywise) i'm going to be pissed... What if i just have to hit 'm' on the keyboard... wtf? NO WAY! lets step it up. Okay this might be a little too crazy... but what if the mothership requires a big keyboard combination to produce? Here are some of my ideas.

If the mothership is SO powerful and can only be produced once... maybe we could make it a two hand keyboard combination to produce. you would have to hit these combinations at the same time, otherwise start over. This would mean you can't use your mouse at all while making the mother ship.

Left hand. | Right hand.
vdsa | nkl;
asdv | ;lkn
qq | pp

The final move will involve your entire left hand making a chopping motion on the left hand side of the keyboard:

[esc]
~
[tab]
[caps lock]
[shift]
[ctrl]

You would have to hit all these keys at once... like your making a karatie chop on your keyboard.

What do you guys think? This would be a totally new way to use the keyboard and pick up the intensity of the game on all fronts. This would also make SC2 revolutionary for stepping up the use of the keyboard for the sake of game play.

What do you guys think? Do you have any sexy keyboard combinations you think should be implemented?

Discuss!!^^



OMFG AWESOME!! but now sc2 will be even uncooler than it would have..

MyLostTemple; you should play this game called Darwinia. It's a rts/rtt, and you create units by making certain gestures with your mouse. Like, you hold alt, then draw a rocket, and you get a bazooka squad. You hold alt, then draw an arc, you get a grenade squad. Und so weiter. It adds sooo much fun to a game. I have to click to many icons in office allready. Therefore I use Opera :D

Edit: I also like very much how your song is in a 9/8 beat.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
June 28 2007 23:33 GMT
#26
This thread is a joke, right?
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
iSTime
Profile Joined November 2006
1579 Posts
June 29 2007 00:07 GMT
#27
This is probably the worst idea for starcraft I've ever heard.
www.infinityseven.net
Heen
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
Korea (South)2178 Posts
June 29 2007 00:21 GMT
#28
I just want probe hotkey to be e -_-;;
('''(G_G/'''')
HolyToss1911
Profile Joined May 2007
354 Posts
June 29 2007 00:36 GMT
#29
LAME new players will never want to learn how to play sc2 no new players = game will died slowly...
AcrossFiveJulys
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
United States3612 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-06-29 01:06:45
June 29 2007 01:04 GMT
#30
I agree that would be cool. It would be GREAT for a mod or something. But for the regular game, no thanks. New players don't want to deal with that crap, and good players would just get annoyed with it after awhile.
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
June 29 2007 02:41 GMT
#31
There is no idea in complicating the game controls until most players can perfectly control everything as it is. And with control perfectly, I mean always start new units exactly when the previous finished, dodge every lurker spine, move-shoot every goon-shot, perfect surrounds with your speedlings, almost instant irradiate clones with 12 science vessels etc. No player is even close to that perfect control, so I really don't see the point in complicating the interface further. Don't force the players to play two games at once.
Months
Profile Joined July 2005
United States356 Posts
June 29 2007 02:57 GMT
#32
you're a genius nick
aka jamel
Artosis *
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States2140 Posts
June 29 2007 03:19 GMT
#33
tasteless explained this to me in person back in march. i literally had him repeat it 3 or 4 times before i grasped the fullness of it. i suggest that everyone reads and rereads it several times because it is likely the most intelligent thing about sc that you have ever read.
Commentatorhttp://twitter.com/Artosis
PluS
Profile Joined January 2005
United States80 Posts
June 29 2007 04:18 GMT
#34
i bet that kid on that clip rapes at guitar hero xD
Go Fuck Yourself
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
June 29 2007 05:28 GMT
#35
On June 29 2007 12:19 Artosis3 wrote:
tasteless explained this to me in person back in march. i literally had him repeat it 3 or 4 times before i grasped the fullness of it. i suggest that everyone reads and rereads it several times because it is likely the most intelligent thing about sc that you have ever read.

I've read it twice and still don't like it.

He said it wasn't a joke but I really hope the mothership part was, having to hit esc and tab etc is just begging for someone to accidently close starcraft or minimize to desktop ;p

Anyway, as much as I'm against making the game easier to play, I'm also against making it artifically harder by implementing actions that serve absolutely no purpose.

I enjoy the rhytmn of pressing 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z because I'm producing zealots quickly not because I enjoy punching keys that do nothing.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
MyLostTemple *
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States2921 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-06-29 08:11:07
June 29 2007 08:09 GMT
#36
On June 29 2007 14:28 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2007 12:19 Artosis3 wrote:
tasteless explained this to me in person back in march. i literally had him repeat it 3 or 4 times before i grasped the fullness of it. i suggest that everyone reads and rereads it several times because it is likely the most intelligent thing about sc that you have ever read.

I've read it twice and still don't like it.

He said it wasn't a joke but I really hope the mothership part was, having to hit esc and tab etc is just begging for someone to accidentally close starcraft or minimize to desktop ;p

Anyway, as much as I'm against making the game easier to play, I'm also against making it artificially harder by implementing actions that serve absolutely no purpose.

I enjoy the rhythm of pressing 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z because I'm producing zealots quickly not because I enjoy punching keys that do nothing.


Obviously you could turn off the binding that would case the game to minimize (at least i think/hope you can lol!). If the risk of tabbing out isn't there the key combination would work fine and make the players hands look even sexier. If there is some strange key configuration that causes that and can't be avoided... just break the keys off and keep the motion there. We had to do that in the original starcraft anyways.

blizzard has already made the game easier on different fronts.... we can select as many units as we want now. We don't have to spam 1 [click] 2 [click] 3 [click] to move our troops out of a battle. Instead we select the whole group and retreat with one swift click. If you still want stuff to be doing with your hands this is room for something new.

If you enjoy the rhythm of making zealots i don't see why you wouldn't enjoy the rhythm of getting a level three upgrade for attack. Why do we have hit 'w' every time to get the weapons upgrade? over and over... it's dull and repetitive. Why not make the better upgrades more complex? It's just another pattern with your fingers. A different pattern. I want more patterns. 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z is a much more complex pattern than the upgrade pattern i showed you in the first post.

I know I would enjoy the motions required for higher units and upgrades since this game was built of basic hand patterns. I don't see how this is 'punching keys doing nothing.' The original sc was too focused on key patterns sheerly for unit production. MBS seems to keep this production rate at a more compact speed AND it uses more finger combos (like doubling and trippingly). So why not fill in the gaps with sexy combos for upgrades and other events occurring in the game?

If the mother ship is only made once i don't see why people wouldn't want some super elite action to create it. It would even be better as a spectator sport if we could get some shots of the players doing crazy motions with their hands. Why not give each of the races more unique patterns on the keyboard or motions with the mouse for unit production? That would make them more unique from each other and still keep starcraft like starcraft.
Follow me on twitter: CallMeTasteless
Dariush
Profile Joined April 2007
Romania330 Posts
June 29 2007 08:28 GMT
#37
On June 29 2007 08:33 FrozenArbiter wrote:
This thread is a joke, right?


I really really hope so :/

I haven't seen something like this even in bnet forums man.
bottomtier
Profile Joined June 2007
United States23 Posts
June 29 2007 11:43 GMT
#38
I had to register just to reply to this.

While button combinations of the nature suggested in this thread seem quite arbitrary, I think it might indeed foster a sort of pimpness. Of course, others have mentioned that clicking an icon on the GUI accomplishes the same thing with much less hassle. But let me explain how such a system might prove a boon for the dedicated gamer, if properly implemented.

Allow me to use Tekken as a specific example. Ever since T3, Mishimas have been able to do what is known as an EWGF. There is also an inferior version, a WGF. Both moves juggle, but the EWGF, in addition to having more eye candy (electricity!!1), gives mad frame advantage on block, is relatively faster, and recovers faster: all of these make mastering the EWGF fucking essential; if you can't do an EWGF, don't bother playing Tekken. Now both moves are performed basically by inputting a dragon punch motion, then pressing right punch. But whereas executing a WGF is easy, EWGF has much less room for sloppiness. The down to down-right motion must be done quickly, and right punch must be executed on or within two frames of inputting down-right. Considering that Tekken runs at 60fps, it may seem daunting that one has only a .033 second margin of error in input. While I can't be bothered to use proper Tekken notation, for the curious, check out the legend on tekken zaibatsu.

The previous paragraph probably appears really fucking tangential. However, there is a point I am attempting to make: good execution should be rewarded. Ergo, one can apply this philosophy to SC2. Besides good old b-n-b hotkeying, Blizzard could provide complex motions to do certain things, PROVIDED that there exists an incentive to doing so. A leet input might, for example, yield slightly faster build/research times. Or for spellcasters, extra mana upon spawning. The list goes on.

Hell, to throw something truly outlandish, one might hatch Zerg larva not by the standard method, but by doing combos of the nature provided in this thread. A Zerg "combo" in this case might reward the player with, say, less overall mineral/gas comsumption or quicker gestation, but if the player fucks up, well... imagine a pregnant woman getting drunk, whose offspring will most likely become some retarded fuckwad. You get the point.

To reiterate: as far as complex keyboard motions for the sake of, well, complex keyboard motions goes, I am whole-heartedly opposed to that. There is no need to make a game NEEDLESSLY complex.

But if one provides two choices: a easy way and a gosu way, with rewards for the latter, then the proposal entertained in the OP might become feasible.

Hooray for my first post. And most likely my last. Carry on.
Wizard
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Poland5055 Posts
June 29 2007 11:55 GMT
#39
On June 29 2007 08:33 FrozenArbiter wrote:
This thread is a joke, right?


I would hope so :S
sAviOr[gm] ~ want to watch good replays? read my blog: http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/wizard
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
June 29 2007 21:30 GMT
#40
Having these 'gosu combos' would kill the simplicity that everyone so loves in SC, it's very 'raw', nothing fancy -_-

I personally wouldn't play SC2 if I had to type in a combo of useless keys to get some 10% build time decrease..
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
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