On July 05 2007 15:13 [X]Ken~D wrote: Genghis, Shadyk, Clockwork and Soomighty? Impressive list, that's like the Boxer, Nal-ra, SAvior of MVC2. Sadly I never got good at MVC2 due to the lack of competition and quarters . IMO it had the deepest strategy for a fighting game, and that's coming from a 3rd Strike player.
On July 05 2007 12:27 BalloonFight wrote: I think this is an extremely interesting concept, but I'm not sure how much it would appeal to the mainstream players.
Also off topic, I'm 1-0 lifetime vs SooMighty.
it already appeals to mainstream Korea. keep in mind Koreans are the only ones who are using the keyboards more efficiently than us.
why wouldn't it appeal to everyone everywhere?
you beat soomighty!? NICE^^ The best mvc2 players I've beaten are LightingStorm from KC and BigRex from Saint Louis. Those were the only places i ever traveled to for mvc2 tournaments : )
who do you play as?
i like Cable (anti air assist) Sentinel (ground assist) captain commando (anti air assist)
I usually use either matrix, Storm/Sent/Cyclops, thrax, Storm/Sent/Capcom, or some type of mag team for fun. I also like using strider/doom (which i think is the team Day uses)
Fun story, the first time I played clockw0rk, aka best S/D player, I of course had to pick strider/doom/sent, the team he popularized, to play him. He looked at me and said nice team. lol Then we played like 20 games in a row, me winning 3 -_-.
The best players I've beaten are kind of the old school marvel players, like Genghis, Shadyk, clockwork and soomighty. But I have beaten Potter once, but hes just sick good and it was basically all luck.
If I fly out to WCG finals in Seattle, I want to play you and Day.
YOUR ON!
I was wondering if anyone would ever notice where Day's other nickname is from (Strider Doom). Did you know that Clockw0rk used to play Starcraft all the time? he used to 2;2 with Zizou21, another tl.net user and also another mvc2 player. I know a few other SC players who were big mvc2 players.
Haha, didn't know clock played SC. I know he was REALLY into FF11 for a long ass time, hell I bet he still is.
On July 05 2007 15:13 [X]Ken~D wrote: Genghis, Shadyk, Clockwork and Soomighty? Impressive list, that's like the Boxer, Nal-ra, SAvior of MVC2. Sadly I never got good at MVC2 due to the lack of competition and quarters . IMO it had the deepest strategy for a fighting game, and that's coming from a 3rd Strike player.
Why do you people even like Starcraft to begin with? :o... This is basically the only RTS with a complex interface and that's what makes it so good.
I would think it is more the strategy, tactical micro and/or large scale battles than the button mashing
Yeah, I was never better than those players, but I could at least hang out with their skill level. Sadly I've never played Justin Wong, who I consider the Boxer of marvel. ;p
Also, imo, the best marvel player I've ever played is Bagnus. Only hardcore mvc2 people will know who he is, heh.
Fun fact, clockwork has the best omega red out of anyone. You'd think thats a joke, but its not.
How is the user interface in Starcraft complex? It simply gives you two options for most actions, a mouse click or a keyboard click. Plus there is the addition of the 0-9 control groups but that's not that complex either. Hot keys are simply used to speed up your macro while you micro. They are not there for us to play combo games with the keyboard. It just happened that as the skill level in Starcraft progressed there became common patterns or combos of hot key usage that players determined was the fastest and best way to play. But the intent of hot keys and control groups is definitely NOT to create combos or anything like that; it is just used for multitasking purposes to speed up your game and to help you control large armies with the control groups.
This idea really does go against what Starcraft is about. When the new game comes out why don't you simply become one of the pioneers that figures out the best combos of hotkeys to use if you like doing this sort of thing so much. There is no point in making a hot key any more than one letter or it's not even a fucking hot key anymore. Starcraft is not about using the keyboard to do fancy combos at all. You do have to do "combos" or hot key patterns (although these are by no means universal, players get to choose whatever pattern suits them best) if you want to be good at the game but that's just a byproduct of the progression of skill.
I think it's pretty clear Blizzard was not trying to make Starcraft a game where the keyboard had any preeminence over any other aspect in the game. It's simply there to help multitasking and speed up the game. Obviously the better you are at using the keyboard the faster you can play and the better you can multitask and the better player you will be. Ironically you want to use the keyboard to slow down gameplay. Especially with the penalities; this will just slow down game play even more, and you are essentially completely changing the function of the keyboard. In short, this idea is a complete disaster.
edit- I repeated myself a bit but you get the point.
On July 05 2007 15:32 boghat wrote: How is the user interface in Starcraft complex? It simply gives you two options for most actions, a mouse click or a keyboard click. Plus there is the addition of the 0-9 control groups but that's not that complex either. Hot keys are simply used to speed up your macro while you micro. They are not there for us to play combo games with the keyboard. It just happened that as the skill level in Starcraft progressed there became common patterns or combos of hot key usage that players determined was the fastest and best way to play. But the intent of hot keys and control groups is definitely NOT to create combos or anything like that; it is just used for multitasking purposes to speed up your game and to help you control large armies with the control groups.
This idea really does go against what Starcraft is about. When the new game comes out why don't you simply become one of the pioneers that figures out the best combos of hotkeys to use if you like doing this sort of thing so much. There is no point in making a hot key any more than one letter or it's not even a fucking hot key anymore. Starcraft is not about using the keyboard to do fancy combos at all. You do have to do "combos" or hot key patterns (although these are by no means universal, players get to choose whatever pattern suits them best) if you want to be good at the game but that's just a byproduct of the progression of skill.
I think it's pretty clear Blizzard was not trying to make Starcraft a game where the keyboard had any preeminence over any other aspect in the game. It's simply there to help multitasking and speed up the game. Obviously the better you are at using the keyboard the faster you can play and the better you can multitask and the better player you will be. Ironically you want to use the keyboard to slow down gameplay. Especially with the penalities; this will just slow down game play even more, and you are essentially completely changing the function of the keyboard. In short, this idea is a complete disaster.
edit- I repeated myself a bit but you get the point.
I'm not trying to be rude but i don't think your getting my point. You might as well call your argument the 'Starcraft Intelligent Design Argument'
I think there's A LOT that sc uses that Blizzard never intended. Like the keyboard mastering that we're talking about here... micro is another example of a feature that i'm sure Blizzard never dreamed could be utilized in such a manner. Is it really important what blizzard intended?... or is it important to see what the game became after the entire world, and especially korea, began to play it? Obviously Starcraft is a whole new game now. By taking one piece of a big picture we can see that part of this game is about mastering simple combos to macro faster. There is also little room for hotkey variation unlike what your saying. How many different starting numbers can you possibly hotkey your gateways or hatcheries too? Eventually your going to have 4 to 0 filled up one way or another. You can't hotkey attacking groups too differently either, you have to use 1a2a3a early.
I'm not trying to make Starcraft into a keyboard dominant game. I'm trying to explain that the keyboard is a big part of this game. I don't even want the keyboard to be AS BIG of a part of the game in Sc2. I just want the keyboard to be new and interesting. The unit production combos will be simpler in sc2. So why not have a few other simple combos for upgrades and other things? As far as i understand Sc2 will have slower unit production, so you wont have to be keyboarding like a mad man to keep up.
penalties was an idea brought up by someone else that i found interesting. However i could see this going either way. There are so many ways someone could implement a feature like that... it would be a whole other discussion.
Has anyone seen Lisu's face? I google image searched it and i couldn't find anything. That one handed Beatmania video is supposedly the best Beatmania player in the world (Lisu). Don't you find it odd that the names of the best P player and the names of the best Beatmania player are so similar? If they're not the same person... it's at least a reference.
On July 05 2007 15:32 boghat wrote: How is the user interface in Starcraft complex? It simply gives you two options for most actions, a mouse click or a keyboard click. Plus there is the addition of the 0-9 control groups but that's not that complex either. Hot keys are simply used to speed up your macro while you micro. They are not there for us to play combo games with the keyboard. It just happened that as the skill level in Starcraft progressed there became common patterns or combos of hot key usage that players determined was the fastest and best way to play. But the intent of hot keys and control groups is definitely NOT to create combos or anything like that; it is just used for multitasking purposes to speed up your game and to help you control large armies with the control groups.
This idea really does go against what Starcraft is about. When the new game comes out why don't you simply become one of the pioneers that figures out the best combos of hotkeys to use if you like doing this sort of thing so much. There is no point in making a hot key any more than one letter or it's not even a fucking hot key anymore. Starcraft is not about using the keyboard to do fancy combos at all. You do have to do "combos" or hot key patterns (although these are by no means universal, players get to choose whatever pattern suits them best) if you want to be good at the game but that's just a byproduct of the progression of skill.
I think it's pretty clear Blizzard was not trying to make Starcraft a game where the keyboard had any preeminence over any other aspect in the game. It's simply there to help multitasking and speed up the game. Obviously the better you are at using the keyboard the faster you can play and the better you can multitask and the better player you will be. Ironically you want to use the keyboard to slow down gameplay. Especially with the penalities; this will just slow down game play even more, and you are essentially completely changing the function of the keyboard. In short, this idea is a complete disaster.
edit- I repeated myself a bit but you get the point.
I'm not trying to be rude but i don't think your getting my point. You might as well call your argument the 'Starcraft Intelligent Design Argument'
I think there's A LOT that sc uses that Blizzard never intended.
Obviously Blizzard never thought people would play this game so much that skill would get this high. So they didn't foresee just what kind of micro was possible with control groups or what kind of blazing macro you could get using hotkeys. However Blizzard did intend for these things to be used, they just didn't foresee them being mastered so well. I don't know how much Blizzard foresaw combos being used so much but they at least knew it was theoretically possible, they put the controls for them in the game afterall. They probably didn't expect people to be making 'songs' out of the combos but they knew the hotkeys and control groups would be very useful for skilled players. Something Blizzard definitely didn't intend though was to make you do random combos on the keyboard to produce things simply for the sake of using the keyboard, but...
On July 05 2007 22:36 MyLostTemple wrote:
I'm not trying to make Starcraft into a keyboard dominant game. I'm trying to explain that the keyboard is a big part of this game. I don't even want the keyboard to be AS BIG of a part of the game in Sc2. I just want the keyboard to be new and interesting. The unit production combos will be simpler in sc2. So why not have a few other simple combos for upgrades and other things? As far as i understand Sc2 will have slower unit production, so you wont have to be keyboarding like a mad man to keep up.
...I definitely agree with you the keyboard is a big part of the game, I never denied that. I simply want the keyboard to be used for practical things, not random combos. Now I understand your fear that unit production combos will be much simpler and unit production slower in sc2 but I don't know how justified that really is considering we haven't seen or learned much yet; I'm guessing it's because of multiple building selection and new methods of production like the Protoss one we saw (although I haven't been following the new mechanics of sc2 too closely so I don't know really know if your concerns are that justified or not; that may be).
In my post I was just assuming that the really skilled players are still going to have to use hotkeys and combos as much as in sc1 to be the best. It might be initially easier for noobs to be good (which is a good thing) but I'm assuming (and hoping) that to be highly skilled you will still have to utilize the keyboard as much as in sc1.
Because even if macro combos are going to be simpler this surely means you can use control groups and hotkeys to micro better. You could probably do some crazy micro stuff with control groups and spells if you didn't need to focus so much on macro. It seems to me you could probably figure out some crazy micro combos to maximize battles. I can see why you'd want to add in random keyboard combos if you think the keyboard is going to be used less but I don't see why you have much reason to think it will be.
Although in the end I agree with you that Blizzard never thought keyboard mastering was going to be such a big part of the game. But that could also mean that when sc1 was made there wasn't supposed to be such a huge emphasis on the keyboard but there did become after the skill level increased. So perhaps therefore even if there initially appears to not be as much of a emphasis on the keyboard for sc2 most likely the best players will still eventually use the keyboard as much as they do now, and this will be part of what makes them the best.
TBH, as a guy infatuated with fighting games (don't take that wrong :/ ), I reside more with the camp that advocates combining simple shit to create complex manuevers. Bringing up Tekken again and referencing a previous poster, Mishimas have to master vital movement techniques, one of which is wavedashing. This is essentially repeated crouch dashing: f~n~d~d/f~n, f~n~... repeatedly. There is also what is known as BDC, aka backdash cancel: b,b~d/b, b,b~d/b ad infinitum. Both sound simple to do, huh? After all, it's just random shit you do with your joystick. By that premise, I suppose Asians like to masturbate A LOT:
Why were Mishimas sooooooo good in TTT? By combining these techniques, you practically CONTROL your opponent by 1. spacing and 2. the sickest mixups known to man. An aside, Koreans loved TTT then. I've been to the most ghetto and varied arcades in Busan, yet they all share one thing in common: EVERY fucking arcade has TTT. I suppose there was reason why: mastering the game was just so worthwhile and fulfilling.
Are such motions made needlessly complex like snk supers? No. What kind of self-respecting fighting game player does not know how to do a dragon punch? Or tap backwards twice? But such simple motions now become intricate, gosu mosaics of skill. There was EFFICIENCY, and PRECISION: the things one does when he micros and macros in SC. Manipulating the most mundane tasks to do great things. It's like improvising in jazz.
By golly though, a game shouldn't be dumbed down to hell. There's a reason you don't use macros (different sense of the word) in fighting games. I'd be fucking PISSED if some asshole pressed some buttons and suddenly did like 293874829374982x mag resets. Of course, the fact that mag still can is worrisome :/ but at least the player should be competent enough to execute it. Hence "just frames" in fighting games, for example. What if Daigo only needed to tap forward once to parry all of Chun's SA2? Actually, that's a bad hypothetical example: it's fucking INANE just to imagine the idea.
Now I'm no RTS player. Hell, I haven't even touched BW since, iono, way back fucking when (that'll change with SC2 ) Shit, I play source too much for my own good. But a balance between simplicity and complexity ought to be achieved, as paradoxical as it sounds. Tapping a key and instantly getting an army is stupid. FORCING a player to, I dunno, type out the konami code in less than a millisecond is also stupid. Which leads to another thing that ought to be addressed...
A game should not be so artificially made complex or dumbed down. Why did Koreans, for the most part, stop playing T4 when it originally came out? They "fixed" (i.e. removed) BDC, but removing the things which make a game BEAUTIFUL is plain idiotic. (Actually, T4 sucked for other reasons *COUGH*JFLS*COUGH* but that's irrelevant) Arbitrariness destroys a game.
I've mentioned before that the OP's concept indeed seemed arbitrary. It still does (and so does my previous ideas, lol). So how does one implement such 'gosu combos' while still making it NATURAL? As natural as infinites in marvel? As natural as corner lockdowns in sf? As natural as the original SC?
Let me attempt an example. The OP griped about one button upgrades. Why not allow the option to upgrade individual classes of units, at a lower price but obviously requiring more keyboard use? Say you don't intend to use, iono, the muta morphs. Then you can upgrade the muta while ignoring its derivatives, and apply the goodies where they count as opposed to a blanket upgrade. Does a scourge really need an armor upgrade? Probably not, so don't.
Perhaps the ability to "micro your macro" can be a solution. I dunno. But I've talked enough. To reference that same earlier poster, I agree the player should control the game, not vice versa. Can the OP's notion and that previous statement reconcile? Hopefully.
To conclude, this is a little demonstration from 3s, for the truly attentive:
I can't do that option select shit fast enough lol
I don't know if this is reasonable, or if it has already been discussed yet in this thread or others, but I'll still put it out there.
What if we could have another set of control groups? Not another place on the keyboard, but pressing say.... the `/~ key would switch to the 2nd set. So you have 1 and 2 sets, for a total of.... 20 control groups? Just throwing it out there. it could open up possibilities. The macro bar and the micro bar? lol now it's sounding stupid :/
On July 07 2007 23:44 SayaSP wrote: I don't know if this is reasonable, or if it has already been discussed yet in this thread or others, but I'll still put it out there.
What if we could have another set of control groups? Not another place on the keyboard, but pressing say.... the `/~ key would switch to the 2nd set. So you have 1 and 2 sets, for a total of.... 20 control groups? Just throwing it out there. it could open up possibilities. The macro bar and the micro bar? lol now it's sounding stupid :/
doesn't sound stupid at all! I think more of the tl.net community should engage new interface ideas rather than cast them away. i actually broke my ~ key off so i always knew if i was hitting my 1 key. Honestly, I don't see why they didn't use the f# keys so we could assign more control groups either.
I really think we need to throughly discuss the interface of RTS games for the future of Starcraft 2. There is so much that has not yet been tangled with on the RTS front in regards to interface. If you have other ideas you should share them. That goes for everyone on this forum too!
I like your idea sayaSP, it's quite interesting. There may be a problem though... if players can use the ~ key to cycle through groups this could case two diffrent methods of playing. This, in a sense, could cause a similar problem to the 'too much clicking' problem most foreigners have a habit of doing. Something like this could teach some players to use the ~ key too much and they would never learn other hotkey patterns required to master the game.
Prophecy1: prehaps you would like to elaborate on what your thinking. You probably still have your windows keys on your computer don't you? =[ Some people still never learned how to play this game. Too bad. I guess the best i could ask of you is to keep your dog shit attitude out of this forum since i doubt you have any clue what your talking about. Keep clicking on your gateways newbie ; )
On July 09 2007 11:58 FrozenArbiter wrote: Isn't he saying pressing ~ would make pressing one 1 select control group 11, not 1, 2 would select 12 etc..?
Anyway, I still have my windows key T_T I like my keyboard looking neat.
YOU STILL HAVE YOUR WINDOWS KEYS ON YOUR KEYBOARD?
How can you possibly access the right shift key w/ your thumb!? How do you not tab yourself out of the game if your using the right ctrl key!? BREAK THEM OFF NOW!
I don't use the right shift or ctrl key haha, I key the 0 with my mouse hand since I only use it for my nexus and then gateway, so it's only used twice in a game for me. Same with 9 pretty much, starting nex, first exp, gate, then I keep my gate keys until the game is over unless something exceptional happens.
On July 09 2007 12:35 FrozenArbiter wrote: I don't use the right shift or ctrl key haha, I key the 0 with my mouse hand since I only use it for my nexus and then gateway, so it's only used twice in a game for me. Same with 9 pretty much, starting nex, first exp, gate, then I keep my gate keys until the game is over unless something exceptional happens.
Why not? You want gateways keyed 99% of the time so I leave the gates keyed until I need those keys for units, but you never have 10 groups of units as toss so 9 and 0 stay as gateways until they are either destroyed or something exceptional happens in the game.
Besides, I'm pretty sure I've seen pros take their hands off the mouse to key. Hm, wasn't it yellow who used to use 2 hands when macroing (ages ago tho and I'm pretty sure he changed), I think he said so in an interview.
In fact I'm pretty sure I just saw nal_ra use his right hand to key his expo nexus while taking a break from fighting vs oversky's hydras, in his about starcraft game vs him.
Yes he used 2 hands to macro while his right hand was above the numeric pad. With this way he could make units rather fast at least faster than 1 handers.
Btw tasteless, tbh it's not really a big deal to have the windows key near the ctrl or alt key even with the right ctrl / win / alt key thing. I mean i've played worth more than dozens thousand of game and i've pressed it like what ? 50 times maybe ? That was when i wasn't really used to macro as i do now. Also keep in mind that not every keyboard are the same. If i remember correctly korean keyboards do not have the right ctrl and for some europeans keyboard (like mine) there's another buton instead of the windows key, which doesn't fuck up the game at all (near the right ctrl). I don't really want to put off the window key since i use it here and there (or every so and then dunno which one to use correct me if i'm wrong >_<)
However i do like you idea about making combos for faster upgrades or faster building units, but wouldn't that piss the beginners off since they could not have played sc at all, let's say every now and then (hey maybe that was the CORRECT one ?) ?
Last but not least, that'd fuck up the players which are used to hit butons really hard. They'd have to change their keyboard at least 1 time per year. Wouldn't it be ridiculous ? Well it doesn't matter for me because i don't tap it hard at all but i don't think everyone are like me. :p
EPT
. IMO it had the deepest strategy for a fighting game, and that's coming from a 3rd Strike player.
