EPTDoes the Raven limit or increase options? - Page 2
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washikie
United States752 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany7139 Posts
We can always go the BW way and instead of disabling 2-3 tanks of the enemy, do Matrix on your own units and send them in first. Usable for all 3 MU's AA Missile could be a bit slower to give a chance to react properly to it Usage against Zerg: Maybe switch auto turrets for Irradiate? | ||
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fastr
France902 Posts
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fastr
France902 Posts
My views have evolved a bit since then. The auto-turret is thankfully back in a more balanced form. I don't think the repair drone was an elegantly designed unit, but I think the current raven still lacks one defensive spell instead of three offensive ones. What hasn't changed is I still hate interference matrix and it seems I was right predicting that anti-armor missile is mostly useless except in TvT. So while I completely share your view regarding interference matrix, I don't think replacing it with the old PDD would be good for the game, nor reinstalling the old seeker missile. The problem with those two spells were that they were both too strong in their respective roles. PDD promoted turtling and stalemate gameplay. Seeker missile also promoted turtling (as a way to reach critical mass of ravens) and game-ending burst damage with little to no counter play (like what the disruptor has turned into in PvT). Those are bad for the games. Here is my idea of the 2020 Raven™: - Removed interference matrix and anti-armor missile abilities. - Added interference missile and plasma shield drone. - Interference missile: Deploys a Missile which activates after 2 seconds and pursues the target units, silences all affected units rendering them unable to use abilities for 9 seconds. Targets mechanical and psionic units. - Plasma shield drone: The raven drops a plasma shield drone at the target location. The drone deploys a plasma shield bubble giving +3 armor to all units inside the bubble for 15 seconds. Now here's why I suggest those two new abilities. Interference missile: This ability effectively combines and replace both interference matrix and anti-armor missile into a single offensive ability. Unlike the interference matrix, affected units can still attack but can no longer use abilities. This would make the raven stronger in PvT and useful against both HTs and disruptors (their damage is ability-based) but colossus and immortals wouldn't be affected by it. In TvZ, I believe this could provide very interesting late game interaction between spell casters, with ravens able to disable infestors or vipers, or maybe even swarmhosts. In TvT, it would be a direct nerf to ravens, which could no longer easily break siege tank lines by disabling them. On the other hand, one raven could disable many enemy ravens or BCs, potentially discouraging massing them in the late game. Plasma shield drone: This is basically a toned-down version of the PDD that would function as a static protoss guardian shield. Instead of negating a 100% of damage over a short period of time, this would allow to negate a sizable amount of damage when used defensively, but would be ineffective against an overwhelming army force. The ability could also be used offensively but with the added risk of getting your ravens exposed while setting the drones up. I'd love to hear people's thoughts. I think my proposal would fix a lot of problems with the current raven but I'm sure I've missed some unexpected consequences. | ||
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ilikeredheads
Canada1995 Posts
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On March 04 2020 16:39 fastr wrote: Two years ago I made this thread about the raven. At the time, I pleaded for the reintroduction of the auto-turret, buffing the repair drone instead of removing it, removing the interference matrix and reworking the anti-armor spell. My views have evolved a bit since then. The auto-turret is thankfully back in a more balanced form. I don't think the repair drone was an elegantly designed unit, but I think the current raven still lacks one defensive spell instead of three offensive ones. What hasn't changed is I still hate interference matrix and it seems I was right predicting that anti-armor missile is mostly useless except in TvT. So while I completely share your view regarding interference matrix, I don't think replacing it with the old PDD would be good for the game, nor reinstalling the old seeker missile. The problem with those two spells were that they were both too strong in their respective roles. PDD promoted turtling and stalemate gameplay. Seeker missile also promoted turtling (as a way to reach critical mass of ravens) and game-ending burst damage with little to no counter play (like what the disruptor has turned into in PvT). Those are bad for the games. Here is my idea of the 2020 Raven™: - Removed interference matrix and anti-armor missile abilities. - Added interference missile and plasma shield drone. - Interference missile: Deploys a Missile which activates after 2 seconds and pursues the target units, silences all affected units rendering them unable to use abilities for 9 seconds. Targets mechanical and psionic units. - Plasma shield drone: The raven drops a plasma shield drone at the target location. The drone deploys a plasma shield bubble giving +3 armor to all units inside the bubble for 15 seconds. Now here's why I suggest those two new abilities. Interference missile: This ability effectively combines and replace both interference matrix and anti-armor missile into a single offensive ability. Unlike the interference matrix, affected units can still attack but can no longer use abilities. This would make the raven stronger in PvT and useful against both HTs and disruptors (their damage is ability-based) but colossus and immortals wouldn't be affected by it. In TvZ, I believe this could provide very interesting late game interaction between spell casters, with ravens able to disable infestors or vipers, or maybe even swarmhosts. In TvT, it would be a direct nerf to ravens, which could no longer easily break siege tank lines by disabling them. On the other hand, one raven could disable many enemy ravens or BCs, potentially discouraging massing them in the late game. Plasma shield drone: This is basically a toned-down version of the PDD that would function as a static protoss guardian shield. Instead of negating a 100% of damage over a short period of time, this would allow to negate a sizable amount of damage when used defensively, but would be ineffective against an overwhelming army force. The ability could also be used offensively but with the added risk of getting your ravens exposed while setting the drones up. I'd love to hear people's thoughts. I think my proposal would fix a lot of problems with the current raven but I'm sure I've missed some unexpected consequences. Anti armor missile isn't useless, when I Watch progames it seems to be even more used that the matrix. Its really powerful against both protoss gateway units and zerg roach based compositions and are used against them. In regards to your proposed changes I could see the plasma shield work and be a cool spell, its basically a an improved static version of sentrys Guardian shield. The interference missile on the other hand..... Just what? It Actives after 2 secondsand then travel time on top of that? It literally useless against Everything, hey there viper in 3 seconds you cant use your abilities… What you just janked me and I am dead? Hey there infestor in..... ops my army is already fungled/neurlaed. Hey there templar, ops I have no energy left. Disruptor same thing, if you see your disruptor is about to get intereferences missiled you either go agro and trigger it Before the missile hit or you just back away. Since the terran need to wait at least 3 seconds for the missile to hit you cant just attack the moment you deploy it so the enemy can Always just back away unless its siege tanks, err yeah right its useless against tanks. Also you would see it used in TvT against other Ravens? Why no one would make ravens if they are useless, you would simply not have any ravens in TvT , if you got one you can intereference missile units that the enemy wont even have? Against BC they would be useless, if you deploy it when the BC is low they will just jump Before the missile hit, remember 3 second delay or if you hit it preemptively just take it if they think the BC can survive through the time it is intereference matrixed. The only way this would even be viable to use against things like vipers, templars, infestors and such is if the Raven gets insane range on it so it can easily stay beyond feedback/yank which have 9 range, it would need at least 10 range to make it even usable which is crazy. | ||
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Ryu3600
Canada469 Posts
Plasma shield drone: This is basically a toned-down version of the PDD that would function as a static protoss guardian shield. Instead of negating a 100% of damage over a short period of time, this would allow to negate a sizable amount of damage when used defensively, but would be ineffective against an overwhelming army force. The ability could also be used offensively but with the added risk of getting your ravens exposed while setting the drones up. While I did read this whole post and I did really enjoy reading it I think this part specifically stood out to me as possibly too strong. Imagine a hellbat raven push with this, even though it is a small bubble it wouldn't really be that useful outside of turtling against LB in small engagements or for very aggressive openers. I think the main issue the ravens always had is the way its damage from seeker missile happens. Storm can be cast instantly and does 80 damage however it's over 2 seconds and not instantly, Fungal Slows units and does its damage (50 I think?) over like 2 or 3 seconds. The Raven requires the units to be close to the missile (Which means if you retreat likelihood is you took damage from other units) before it goes off this is a cancer interaction similar to how in some games a protoss can kite you with colossi stalker, poke you with tempest and if you chase zone you out with disruptors. Perhaps lowering the amount done over a missile could work but I don't know how one would go about it and the more I do consider it I do think PDD would create and cause cancer games but my end goal is to ultimately make a raven that favors defensive play and adds late game utility and take away its role of being a must-make unit in matchups like TvT. | ||
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Ryu3600
Canada469 Posts
On March 04 2020 18:29 ilikeredheads wrote: I rather have defensive matrix over PDD. PDD doesn't work against units that instant fire, such as tanks, immortals, and colosuss. That is the point, you don't want to stop all damage just projectile damage. Interference matrix removes key units which is an issue. PDD however would only stop something like vikings/libs in TvT for a while (Negating some damage) but still allowing key units that players often need such as colossus, tanks, or immortals to still do their proper DPS. In late game it stops corruptors from just walking up and killing you or killing a viking army if you're too busy micromanaging say a bio army vs lingbane. Either way I don't think PDD and Seeker should ever both be in the game but I don't think 2017s raven was too great of an issue in the metagame. In proplay and my own personal games, it was really rare to see. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19322 Posts
Abilities: * Anti-Armor Missile * PDD * Defense Matrix - as mentioned in this thread, let's make TvT tanks matter again. D-Matrix could really boost the power of tanks in all matchups. Possibly Include: * SC2 campaign heal mech - As very expensive late game ability | ||
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freelifeffs
97 Posts
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
On March 05 2020 02:45 BisuDagger wrote: I'm all for a pure support version of the Raven: Abilities: * Anti-Armor Missile * PDD * Defense Matrix - as mentioned in this thread, let's make TvT tanks matter again. D-Matrix could really boost the power of tanks in all matchups. Possibly Include: * SC2 campaign heal mech - As very expensive late game ability I would love healing mech, that'd be so hot. A single raven in TvZ can wreck a mid game zerg Roach/Hydra deathball and buy the terran enough time to build up a critical mass of Mech or allow them to defend the near-max midgame crush from Z. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2656 Posts
On March 05 2020 05:08 freelifeffs wrote: while i agree with you that the matrix is unhealthy for the game, i disagree with your solutions. the PDD was absolute cancer. i would like to see a totally new spell to replace the matrix, one that is thought out better. This is a missconception from a previus era, early HotS PDD lasted 180 whole HotS seconds, 128 current seconds. Thats 2 WHOLE MINUTES. Considering it took a raven about 190 ingame seconds to gather 100 energy for another PDD. And had a mana regeneration of 1 to 1 in HotS seconds (the drone had 200 started energy and every proyectile it stopped costed 10 energy) So not only it lasted 2 whole minutes on the battlefield but after stopping its initial 20 shots it could gather energy to stopped another additional 18 shot and by the time the first PDD died the same raven would have enough energy for a second one. Compare that to post patch PDD, only lasted 20 seconds, 14 current seconds, it could only gather energy for 2 extra shots and it would take another whole 160 HotS seconds to gather enough energy for another PDD. | ||
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