On March 03 2020 01:38 parksonsc wrote: People are starting to underestimate Innovation just because he's not smashing everyone anymore. His peak was as high as anyone else if not above. Remember his style is macro oriented and positioning which has no weakness if executes perfectly, that's what he did in his peak. He made anyone else look surprisingly bad back then. He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's.
It is kinda funny, to say Zest is greater than Maru because he got his result during Kespa era. So your "greatest of all time player" is great because he got the result when it was the most competitive. Yet for some reason he has (up until this IEM) been a straight up average player for years.
So Marus result doesn't matter because he got them in a time when the competition was so easy that the greater player Zest failed to get any result at all. Seriously, if your Innovation and Zest were so much greater they would be the ones winning everything in this "easy" era, they are not.
The most competetive era is bullshit when judging results and GOATs. An equally bullshit argument would be if I tried to argue that any results after lotv doesn't matter. Hey WoL and HotS was the most competetive era, lotv dumbed down the economy, made creepspreading faster and easier, inject larva stackable, removed mules for terran ease (yes they reverted it pretty fast though) and made chronoboost crazy easy, protoss got recall and so on... Really the game was much too easy after lotv for the results to really count, pros that do well in lotv are simply less skilled than players that did well in wol and hots....
Its bullshit, any of these "most competetive era" arguments doesn't understand how winning works, only one player can win, only one player can be the best player. There are still a lot of players playing sc2.
You realize they are not the same age at all right? Some are past their prime and can still put up good results, some are in their prime. Younger INno would fare better today than actual INno, that’s for sure Maru still GOAT because 4 GSL in a row across patches is unprecedented and probably can’t be done again, even the zergs couldn’t do it on last year patch (+ his previous achievements of course)
I think we are of different opinions in regards to how important age is in sc2, you make it sounds players "not in their prime" meaning old generally are worse at the game than younger players. That simply isn't true, there are way too many of the "some are past their prime can still put up good result" for that to be true, Maru is basically the only korean player in "prime" years. Stats and Zest 27, Rogue and Innovation 26, Classic is 28, TY 25, Dark 24.
So basically all the best players in the world besides Maru and Serral are "past their prime", if age really mattered as much as you say it would be the other way around. There would two players above 22 and the rest would be young but that is not how the RO8 in GSL looks at all. Younger players are breaking through and improving but just being faster is not enough.
Don't forget what Stephano said, after making his comeback he failed to get any results and was asked if he had gotten rusty after a lengthy break. He just answered no, he puts much more effort into SC2 now than he ever did when he got his great success but cant seem to reach the same level because everyone have improved as such a fast pace.
Younger Inno wouldn't even get into RO32 current GSL, the level is much much higher than before, not because of there being more players but because the same players have continued to improve their game for years. For a progamer there are much more important skills than just youth and reaction time. Clutch factor, controlling nerves on the stage, planning longer series, making your own builds. Many things are built over years of training. Sure if Inno somehow could warp his current skills into his younger body he would be better but that is not possible. We cant invest many years into a craft and then still keep our youth.
Your logic has so many flaws. First of all you cannot compare skill level across different period. For exp: Mongol was one of the greatest empire in history and their calvary would easily be destroyed by any modern army if being put in today's world. Inno, Zest and Life were so great because they dominated in the most competitive era when there were so many champion contenders. If you take out any of Inno, Zest, Life on their prime, there were more than dozen of players who could win premier. Look at the current scene, who can win premier league beside the three strongest Zerg and possibly 1 Terran and 1 Protoss?
So you argue back then was the most competitive because you had 3 players "dominate" but now it's not competitive because you have ONLY 5 players "dominate".... wait what?
EDIT: Also, that metaphor... dude How about using chess as a metaphor or sth? Did Chess evolve in the last 10 years? Are the best Chess players 10 years ago still the best (minus any AI's obviously)?
How long have you been watching the game competitively mate? In Kespa era there were countless amount of players who could take series off the champion contenders and the top (Inno/Life/Zest) had to work so hard to maintain the positions, there was no back to back GSL champion and even the code A was still competitive. Team houses helped analyzing gameplay and finding counter to any player. The fact that they won that many titles over such that many strong players was truly impressive. Now, Rogue, Serral, Dark are the only ones that can win tourney, put they any where in the bracket you want and they'd still meet in the finals. The player pool is now tiny as hell. Chess is not comparable to Starcraft. This video game is about mechanic skill and biological peak just as it's about strategies.
So it's okay to compare Starcraft to the mongolian empire but not to chess. Ok cool
Honestly , the only point I can only give to Kespa era above now is the amount of practice and maybe motivation (for some players). On the other hand, maybe people like Inno are not motivated. But there are still a lot of players hungry. During Kespa they practised 12+ hours a day, yet we have Serral who does like 6+ hours of playing and still wins
We'll never find out I guess. We can only look forward to 3 more awesome years of Starcraft and hope that damn virus gets stopped soon
On March 03 2020 01:38 parksonsc wrote: People are starting to underestimate Innovation just because he's not smashing everyone anymore. His peak was as high as anyone else if not above. Remember his style is macro oriented and positioning which has no weakness if executes perfectly, that's what he did in his peak. He made anyone else look surprisingly bad back then. He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's.
It is kinda funny, to say Zest is greater than Maru because he got his result during Kespa era. So your "greatest of all time player" is great because he got the result when it was the most competitive. Yet for some reason he has (up until this IEM) been a straight up average player for years.
So Marus result doesn't matter because he got them in a time when the competition was so easy that the greater player Zest failed to get any result at all. Seriously, if your Innovation and Zest were so much greater they would be the ones winning everything in this "easy" era, they are not.
The most competetive era is bullshit when judging results and GOATs. An equally bullshit argument would be if I tried to argue that any results after lotv doesn't matter. Hey WoL and HotS was the most competetive era, lotv dumbed down the economy, made creepspreading faster and easier, inject larva stackable, removed mules for terran ease (yes they reverted it pretty fast though) and made chronoboost crazy easy, protoss got recall and so on... Really the game was much too easy after lotv for the results to really count, pros that do well in lotv are simply less skilled than players that did well in wol and hots....
Its bullshit, any of these "most competetive era" arguments doesn't understand how winning works, only one player can win, only one player can be the best player. There are still a lot of players playing sc2.
You realize they are not the same age at all right? Some are past their prime and can still put up good results, some are in their prime. Younger INno would fare better today than actual INno, that’s for sure Maru still GOAT because 4 GSL in a row across patches is unprecedented and probably can’t be done again, even the zergs couldn’t do it on last year patch (+ his previous achievements of course)
I think we are of different opinions in regards to how important age is in sc2, you make it sounds players "not in their prime" meaning old generally are worse at the game than younger players. That simply isn't true, there are way too many of the "some are past their prime can still put up good result" for that to be true, Maru is basically the only korean player in "prime" years. Stats and Zest 27, Rogue and Innovation 26, Classic is 28, TY 25, Dark 24.
So basically all the best players in the world besides Maru and Serral are "past their prime", if age really mattered as much as you say it would be the other way around. There would two players above 22 and the rest would be young but that is not how the RO8 in GSL looks at all. Younger players are breaking through and improving but just being faster is not enough.
Don't forget what Stephano said, after making his comeback he failed to get any results and was asked if he had gotten rusty after a lengthy break. He just answered no, he puts much more effort into SC2 now than he ever did when he got his great success but cant seem to reach the same level because everyone have improved as such a fast pace.
Younger Inno wouldn't even get into RO32 current GSL, the level is much much higher than before, not because of there being more players but because the same players have continued to improve their game for years. For a progamer there are much more important skills than just youth and reaction time. Clutch factor, controlling nerves on the stage, planning longer series, making your own builds. Many things are built over years of training. Sure if Inno somehow could warp his current skills into his younger body he would be better but that is not possible. We cant invest many years into a craft and then still keep our youth.
Your logic has so many flaws. First of all you cannot compare skill level across different period. For exp: Mongol was one of the greatest empire in history and their calvary would easily be destroyed by any modern army if being put in today's world. Inno, Zest and Life were so great because they dominated in the most competitive era when there were so many champion contenders. If you take out any of Inno, Zest, Life on their prime, there were more than dozen of players who could win premier. Look at the current scene, who can win premier league beside the three strongest Zerg and possibly 1 Terran and 1 Protoss?
So you argue back then was the most competitive because you had 3 players "dominate" but now it's not competitive because you have ONLY 5 players "dominate".... wait what?
EDIT: Also, that metaphor... dude How about using chess as a metaphor or sth? Did Chess evolve in the last 10 years? Are the best Chess players 10 years ago still the best (minus any AI's obviously)?
How long have you been watching the game competitively mate? In Kespa era there were countless amount of players who could take series off the champion contenders and the top (Inno/Life/Zest) had to work so hard to maintain the positions, there was no back to back GSL champion and even the code A was still competitive. Team houses helped analyzing gameplay and finding counter to any player. The fact that they won that many titles over such that many strong players was truly impressive. Now, Rogue, Serral, Dark are the only ones that can win tourney, put they any where in the bracket you want and they'd still meet in the finals. The player pool is now tiny as hell. Chess is not comparable to Starcraft. This video game is about mechanic skill and biological peak just as it's about strategies.
During Kespa they practised 12+ hours a day, yet we have Serral who does like 6+ hours of playing and still wins
On March 03 2020 01:38 parksonsc wrote: People are starting to underestimate Innovation just because he's not smashing everyone anymore. His peak was as high as anyone else if not above. Remember his style is macro oriented and positioning which has no weakness if executes perfectly, that's what he did in his peak. He made anyone else look surprisingly bad back then. He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's.
It is kinda funny, to say Zest is greater than Maru because he got his result during Kespa era. So your "greatest of all time player" is great because he got the result when it was the most competitive. Yet for some reason he has (up until this IEM) been a straight up average player for years.
So Marus result doesn't matter because he got them in a time when the competition was so easy that the greater player Zest failed to get any result at all. Seriously, if your Innovation and Zest were so much greater they would be the ones winning everything in this "easy" era, they are not.
The most competetive era is bullshit when judging results and GOATs. An equally bullshit argument would be if I tried to argue that any results after lotv doesn't matter. Hey WoL and HotS was the most competetive era, lotv dumbed down the economy, made creepspreading faster and easier, inject larva stackable, removed mules for terran ease (yes they reverted it pretty fast though) and made chronoboost crazy easy, protoss got recall and so on... Really the game was much too easy after lotv for the results to really count, pros that do well in lotv are simply less skilled than players that did well in wol and hots....
Its bullshit, any of these "most competetive era" arguments doesn't understand how winning works, only one player can win, only one player can be the best player. There are still a lot of players playing sc2.
You realize they are not the same age at all right? Some are past their prime and can still put up good results, some are in their prime. Younger INno would fare better today than actual INno, that’s for sure Maru still GOAT because 4 GSL in a row across patches is unprecedented and probably can’t be done again, even the zergs couldn’t do it on last year patch (+ his previous achievements of course)
I think we are of different opinions in regards to how important age is in sc2, you make it sounds players "not in their prime" meaning old generally are worse at the game than younger players. That simply isn't true, there are way too many of the "some are past their prime can still put up good result" for that to be true, Maru is basically the only korean player in "prime" years. Stats and Zest 27, Rogue and Innovation 26, Classic is 28, TY 25, Dark 24.
So basically all the best players in the world besides Maru and Serral are "past their prime", if age really mattered as much as you say it would be the other way around. There would two players above 22 and the rest would be young but that is not how the RO8 in GSL looks at all. Younger players are breaking through and improving but just being faster is not enough.
Don't forget what Stephano said, after making his comeback he failed to get any results and was asked if he had gotten rusty after a lengthy break. He just answered no, he puts much more effort into SC2 now than he ever did when he got his great success but cant seem to reach the same level because everyone have improved as such a fast pace.
Younger Inno wouldn't even get into RO32 current GSL, the level is much much higher than before, not because of there being more players but because the same players have continued to improve their game for years. For a progamer there are much more important skills than just youth and reaction time. Clutch factor, controlling nerves on the stage, planning longer series, making your own builds. Many things are built over years of training. Sure if Inno somehow could warp his current skills into his younger body he would be better but that is not possible. We cant invest many years into a craft and then still keep our youth.
Your logic has so many flaws. First of all you cannot compare skill level across different period. For exp: Mongol was one of the greatest empire in history and their calvary would easily be destroyed by any modern army if being put in today's world. Inno, Zest and Life were so great because they dominated in the most competitive era when there were so many champion contenders. If you take out any of Inno, Zest, Life on their prime, there were more than dozen of players who could win premier. Look at the current scene, who can win premier league beside the three strongest Zerg and possibly 1 Terran and 1 Protoss?
So you argue back then was the most competitive because you had 3 players "dominate" but now it's not competitive because you have ONLY 5 players "dominate".... wait what?
EDIT: Also, that metaphor... dude How about using chess as a metaphor or sth? Did Chess evolve in the last 10 years? Are the best Chess players 10 years ago still the best (minus any AI's obviously)?
How long have you been watching the game competitively mate? In Kespa era there were countless amount of players who could take series off the champion contenders and the top (Inno/Life/Zest) had to work so hard to maintain the positions, there was no back to back GSL champion and even the code A was still competitive. Team houses helped analyzing gameplay and finding counter to any player. The fact that they won that many titles over such that many strong players was truly impressive. Now, Rogue, Serral, Dark are the only ones that can win tourney, put they any where in the bracket you want and they'd still meet in the finals. The player pool is now tiny as hell. Chess is not comparable to Starcraft. This video game is about mechanic skill and biological peak just as it's about strategies.
So it's okay to compare Starcraft to the mongolian empire but not to chess. Ok cool
Honestly , the only point I can only give to Kespa era above now is the amount of practice and maybe motivation (for some players). On the other hand, maybe people like Inno are not motivated. But there are still a lot of players hungry. During Kespa they practised 12+ hours a day, yet we have Serral who does like 6+ hours of playing and still wins
We'll never find out I guess. We can only look forward to 3 more awesome years of Starcraft and hope that damn virus gets stopped soon
Can you source the 12 hours|?
From the few interviews/videos I saw it appears that KeSPA teams were not doing such things. They forced players to eat away from PC, to have some sport regime etc. But maybe it was just some teams/coaches(still remember the interview of the coach Park in EG). Practicing 12h a day isn't nowhere near healthy and doesn't seem fit for this teams.
It's a system that asks a lot of its players. Kim "Cure" Doh Wook explained that well, saying "The team house promotes 8.5 hours of practice a day, and I keep to that. Also, I do about 3 hours of additional practice on my own."
Maybe I can look up some more when I'm at home
EDIT: There are some video interviews about practice regiment but I can't watch them at work :/
It's a system that asks a lot of its players. Kim "Cure" Doh Wook explained that well, saying "The team house promotes 8.5 hours of practice a day, and I keep to that. Also, I do about 3 hours of additional practice on my own."
Maybe I can look up some more when I'm at home
EDIT: There are some video interviews about practice regiment but I can't watch them at work :/
Would be nice to source this, because I am under the impression what you cited - 8,5h of work , the rest is the players choice to be the bestest everest. BTW part of the practice was game analysis, strategy preparation and shit, so it wasn't just massing games. Not sure if Serral counts his thinking about the game as practice
It's a system that asks a lot of its players. Kim "Cure" Doh Wook explained that well, saying "The team house promotes 8.5 hours of practice a day, and I keep to that. Also, I do about 3 hours of additional practice on my own."
Maybe I can look up some more when I'm at home
EDIT: There are some video interviews about practice regiment but I can't watch them at work :/
Would be nice to source this, because I am under the impression what you cited - 8,5h of work , the rest is the players choice to be the bestest everest. BTW part of the practice was game analysis, strategy preparation and shit, so it wasn't just massing games. Not sure if Serral counts his thinking about the game as practice
I remember some Foreigners who went to Korea critisizing the Teamhouse practice regimen as not very efficient. To much time invested in pure practice, not enough breaks, not enough physical and psychological balance. But that may have changed over time.
It's a system that asks a lot of its players. Kim "Cure" Doh Wook explained that well, saying "The team house promotes 8.5 hours of practice a day, and I keep to that. Also, I do about 3 hours of additional practice on my own."
Maybe I can look up some more when I'm at home
EDIT: There are some video interviews about practice regiment but I can't watch them at work :/
Would be nice to source this, because I am under the impression what you cited - 8,5h of work , the rest is the players choice to be the bestest everest. BTW part of the practice was game analysis, strategy preparation and shit, so it wasn't just massing games. Not sure if Serral counts his thinking about the game as practice
I remember some Foreigners who went to Korea critisizing the Teamhouse practice regimen as not very efficient. To much time invested in pure practice, not enough breaks, not enough physical and psychological balance. But that may have changed over time.
That explains why those foreigners dominated the inefficiently practicing koreans in all those tournaments.
It's a system that asks a lot of its players. Kim "Cure" Doh Wook explained that well, saying "The team house promotes 8.5 hours of practice a day, and I keep to that. Also, I do about 3 hours of additional practice on my own."
Maybe I can look up some more when I'm at home
EDIT: There are some video interviews about practice regiment but I can't watch them at work :/
Would be nice to source this, because I am under the impression what you cited - 8,5h of work , the rest is the players choice to be the bestest everest. BTW part of the practice was game analysis, strategy preparation and shit, so it wasn't just massing games. Not sure if Serral counts his thinking about the game as practice
I remember some Foreigners who went to Korea critisizing the Teamhouse practice regimen as not very efficient. To much time invested in pure practice, not enough breaks, not enough physical and psychological balance. But that may have changed over time.
That explains why those foreigners dominated the inefficiently practicing koreans in all those tournaments.
Nah, that's because they're born in Korea. Check the region lock. It doesn't matter what skill you have, only what's your country of origin!
It's a system that asks a lot of its players. Kim "Cure" Doh Wook explained that well, saying "The team house promotes 8.5 hours of practice a day, and I keep to that. Also, I do about 3 hours of additional practice on my own."
Maybe I can look up some more when I'm at home
EDIT: There are some video interviews about practice regiment but I can't watch them at work :/
Would be nice to source this, because I am under the impression what you cited - 8,5h of work , the rest is the players choice to be the bestest everest. BTW part of the practice was game analysis, strategy preparation and shit, so it wasn't just massing games. Not sure if Serral counts his thinking about the game as practice
I remember some Foreigners who went to Korea critisizing the Teamhouse practice regimen as not very efficient. To much time invested in pure practice, not enough breaks, not enough physical and psychological balance. But that may have changed over time.
That explains why those foreigners dominated the inefficiently practicing koreans in all those tournaments.
They never said, that korean training environment were inefficient as a whole. Of course living in a team house, having social control to actual practice a lot, having team partners to do custom games with and to discuss strategies and buildorders and such is an huge advantage. Also having so many players in such a small region (compared to everywhere else) is a huge bonus factor, making this region very competetive. But this doesn't mean that there aren't details which were problematic and if changed could've made the practice even more efficient. Otherwise something like Byun winning GSL and WCS could never have happened. Also it would be hard to explain why Serral is/was able to compete with the Jinair guys. Taeja is another example - being competetive in your socalled "most competetive era" despite not being in team houses for a very long time. Problem with korean practive regimen was: it wasn't individually refined for each player with his individual needs and thus was bound to hinder some players from getting even better.
It's a system that asks a lot of its players. Kim "Cure" Doh Wook explained that well, saying "The team house promotes 8.5 hours of practice a day, and I keep to that. Also, I do about 3 hours of additional practice on my own."
Maybe I can look up some more when I'm at home
EDIT: There are some video interviews about practice regiment but I can't watch them at work :/
Would be nice to source this, because I am under the impression what you cited - 8,5h of work , the rest is the players choice to be the bestest everest. BTW part of the practice was game analysis, strategy preparation and shit, so it wasn't just massing games. Not sure if Serral counts his thinking about the game as practice
I remember some Foreigners who went to Korea critisizing the Teamhouse practice regimen as not very efficient. To much time invested in pure practice, not enough breaks, not enough physical and psychological balance. But that may have changed over time.
It's also a Starcraft thing apparently. There's an interview out there of Iloveoov when he became the coach of the Afreeca Freecs lol team after leaving SKT and he saw that the lol team didn't practice enough and he decided to sign more practice partner and change the way practice was structured to make his team put in more hours than anyone else. There was something along the lines of him saying that it was normal for Starcraft player to put in 10-11 hours everyday then more when there was an event coming up, but that his lol team normally only put in 8ish hours before he came. His philosophy was that players shouldn't think about anything else than the game
His team has pretty good success so apparently there's some truth to that.
Edit: Here's the quote: "You just told me that 13 hours of practice is impressive. My immediate reaction is "Isn't that the norm?"" iloveoov said when we discuss an anecdote of a former Starcraft II pro practicing upwards of 13 hours a day.
It's a system that asks a lot of its players. Kim "Cure" Doh Wook explained that well, saying "The team house promotes 8.5 hours of practice a day, and I keep to that. Also, I do about 3 hours of additional practice on my own."
Maybe I can look up some more when I'm at home
EDIT: There are some video interviews about practice regiment but I can't watch them at work :/
Would be nice to source this, because I am under the impression what you cited - 8,5h of work , the rest is the players choice to be the bestest everest. BTW part of the practice was game analysis, strategy preparation and shit, so it wasn't just massing games. Not sure if Serral counts his thinking about the game as practice
I remember some Foreigners who went to Korea critisizing the Teamhouse practice regimen as not very efficient. To much time invested in pure practice, not enough breaks, not enough physical and psychological balance. But that may have changed over time.
It's also a Starcraft thing apparently. There's an interview out there of Iloveoov when he became the coach of the Afreeca Freecs lol team after leaving SKT and he saw that the lol team didn't practice enough and he decided to sign more practice partner and change the way practice was structured to make his team put in more hours than anyone else. There was something along the lines of him saying that it was normal for Starcraft player to put in 10-11 hours everyday then more when there was an event coming up, but that his lol team normally only put in 8ish hours before he came. His philosophy was that players shouldn't think about anything else than the game
His team has pretty good success so apparently there's some truth to that.
Edit: Here's the quote: "You just told me that 13 hours of practice is impressive. My immediate reaction is "Isn't that the norm?"" iloveoov said when we discuss an anecdote of a former Starcraft II pro practicing upwards of 13 hours a day.
That's interesting. Bust still - it doesn't mean that more practice automatically is the best way to get better. It will help of course, but perhaps investing the time differently could've greater effect. Also while Afreeca Freecs are quite successful they aren't the top dogs of anything. Quite some nonkorean teams are more successful - but I don't know anything about their practice, of course.
On March 02 2020 01:47 Ej_ wrote: It is a very peculiar talent of Rogue to make every final he particilates in shit. And he wins them too!
It's like he saw what soO did and thought "Imagine that but winning" :D
Rogue is the exact opposite of soO, he seems to be working less than everyone else, stomp all of his final and he pretty much has no fans, and someday he's going to finally lose a final and everyone will be ecstatic lol.
Not if you've watch Rogue's sexyboi plays during ProLeague days. I still remember Wolf saying "Balls of Iron" when he went proxy hatch inside Classic (then SSL Champion) main at matchpoint in group decider match:
EPT
