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Die4Ever
United States17750 Posts
On March 02 2020 16:48 sneakyfox wrote: Interesting. Could you do the same count for Top4? And maybe also Top8? it wouldn't be easy unless you could find a single page that contains all that info this guy did some other stats though https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/fc67qz/spicy_stats_on_tournament_results_2019_2020/ ![[image loading]](https://preview.redd.it/05i86eenm6k41.png?width=1007&auto=webp&s=6eac6d359fb5dd148bd20a1782b17b6a7d1429a5) | ||
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sneakyfox
8218 Posts
On March 02 2020 17:07 Die4Ever wrote: it wouldn't be easy unless you could find a single page that contains all that info this guy did some other stats though https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/fc67qz/spicy_stats_on_tournament_results_2019_2020/ Thanks. I'm pretty sure a liquipedia template could be made for that. I'll try to ask someone from the mafia if they would create it. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany7441 Posts
On March 02 2020 18:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue now has to be included in a GOAT discussion right? Has to be in the top 10 / top 8 at this point. I guess all the more "recent" Zergs like Dark, Rogue and Serral have gained a few places | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On March 02 2020 18:23 Harris1st wrote: I guess all the more "recent" Zergs like Dark, Rogue and Serral have gained a few places "Gained a few places", the casters openly talk about how the two GOATs got knocked out in to RO4.... Such brazen BS, Serral and Maru regarded as equal GOATs while no mention of Inno…. I don't even like Inno and it makes me fume Edit: On the topic, yes Rogue has to be in the top 10 now, as weird as that sounds. I'm a Rogue fan but it still feels so wrong to have a player win the Championship go yeah I was planning to take it easy and not play so much since I don't really feel the passion for the game anymore but heh well, guess I won huh | ||
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DSK
England1110 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
On March 02 2020 19:04 Shuffleblade wrote: "Gained a few places", the casters openly talk about how the two GOATs got knocked out in to RO4.... Such brazen BS, Serral and Maru regarded as equal GOATs while no mention of Inno…. I don't even like Inno and it makes me fume Edit: On the topic, yes Rogue has to be in the top 10 now, as weird as that sounds. I'm a Rogue fan but it still feels so wrong to have a player win the Championship go yeah I was planning to take it easy and not play so much since I don't really feel the passion for the game anymore but heh well, guess I won huh Well, in some cases if people do care they tend to overdo shit. Maybe not caring enough and playing fun builds you actually like delivers more than overpracticing and overthinking stuff. I believe that's what was behind the success of Parting/sOs/Maru. They play how they like, not how the meta dictates(unless, of course, they're dictating the meta  ) | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7441 Posts
On March 02 2020 19:04 Shuffleblade wrote: "Gained a few places", the casters openly talk about how the two GOATs got knocked out in to RO4.... Such brazen BS, Serral and Maru regarded as equal GOATs while no mention of Inno…. I don't even like Inno and it makes me fume Edit: On the topic, yes Rogue has to be in the top 10 now, as weird as that sounds. I'm a Rogue fan but it still feels so wrong to have a player win the Championship go yeah I was planning to take it easy and not play so much since I don't really feel the passion for the game anymore but heh well, guess I won huh Let the caters hype a bit. After all, that is part of why we pay them  Maru and Serral do make for some good storylines IMO. Specially because they never meet | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On March 02 2020 19:26 Harris1st wrote: Let the caters hype a bit. After all, that is part of why we pay them Maru and Serral do make for some good storylines IMO. Specially because they never meet I understand what you mean but I strongly disagree. If the casters angle whoever advances as the strongest players ever that just makes SC2 seem cheap and fake. I would agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that it is these kinds of statements that shape the whole communities opinions. Not every SC2 fan will know the whole history of the game, not everyone will know the complete legacies of every player. The fact is the casters shape the communities perception to a big degree, if you believe majority vote/opinion decides who is the greatest and the commentators literally shape the public opinion..... Obviously ones or twice is not a problem but believe me if the commentators decided together they would call Maru/Serral the GOAT consequently for a year+ the community at large would think he is the GOAT even if they didn't before. I don't Think we should let the commentators shape the way we look at the players just because they themselves have an opinion and state it as a fact when it is actually very controversial. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
On March 02 2020 18:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue now has to be included in a GOAT discussion right? Has to be in the top 10 / top 8 at this point. I don't think I'd place him above any of Maru, Inno, Life, soO, Stats, Zest, sOs, Dark, Mvp Maybe 10th tied with Classic. He has a few big wins but isn't consistent (not a lot of ro4 finishes compared to other players) and had success mostly in a weaker era | ||
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ZugzwangSC
87 Posts
Thank you IEM for another massive tournament. 2021 will be even better once it officially carries the gravitas of the world championship. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4967 Posts
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midhigh
49 Posts
On March 02 2020 21:16 Charoisaur wrote: I don't think I'd place him above any of Maru, Inno, Life, soO, Stats, Zest, sOs, Dark, Mvp Maybe 10th tied with Classic. He has a few big wins but isn't consistent (not a lot of ro4 finishes compared to other players) and had success mostly in a weaker era Also I don't think you can place any of these players above Rogue without an argument. His peak was as high as the mentioned player, or even the highest ever below Serral's. I would take Rogues career any day of the week from your list, even he is not as talented as Maru or Dark. I don't want to get into balance discussion, so just based on the facts. Rogue has never lost a final, while winning 2 IEM Katowice, 1 WCS Global final and also a GSL. These are the most competitive tourneys. He performs when the stakes are the highest. That is also a very important quality/talent. So in my eyes, Dark, Stats, soO cannot be placed above Rogue just based on their performances when it matters the most. Zest and sOs are as inconsistent as Rogue, so they definitely cannot be higher, with similar results. Inno however has never won IEM Katowice or WCS Global Finals, but he can be comparable to Rogue in terms of achievements, but his peak was never that high as Maru's or Darks. We need to appreciate and enjoy his longevity, however this quality alone does not make him the GOAT. Mvp is in between Rogue and Inno in terms of achievements, peak and longevity, but most of his results came in a much different era. Maru is the most talented from the list i think, however he underperforms too many times to call him the GOAT. He is the Peyton Manning of the SC2, while Rogue is Tom Brady. Who must not be named career was too short to call him the GOAT. | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On March 02 2020 18:23 Harris1st wrote: I guess all the more "recent" Zergs like Dark, Rogue and Serral have gained a few places It is worth noting that both Dark and Rogue had success in HotS though obviously not as much as they have recently. That's in comparison to players who only really arrived during the, uh, most balanced period in SC2 history. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
On March 02 2020 23:57 midhigh wrote: So in my eyes, Dark, Stats, soO cannot be placed above Rogue just based on their performances when it matters the most. Interesting criteria. Let's agree to disagree here. | ||
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a7xEnsiferum
7 Posts
On March 02 2020 23:57 midhigh wrote: Sorry for my language but that comment is bullshit. First, all Serrals WCS are not worth much in terms of achievements. Id say winning 3 WCS is less impressive than winning 1 GSL. Also I don't think you can place any of these players above Rogue without an argument. His peak was as high as the mentioned player, or even the highest ever below Serral's. I would take Rogues career any day of the week from your list, even he is not as talented as Maru or Dark. I don't want to get into balance discussion, so just based on the facts. Rogue has never lost a final, while winning 2 IEM Katowice, 1 WCS Global final and also a GSL. These are the most competitive tourneys. He performs when the stakes are the highest. That is also a very important quality/talent. So in my eyes, Dark, Stats, soO cannot be placed above Rogue just based on their performances when it matters the most. Zest and sOs are as inconsistent as Rogue, so they definitely cannot be higher, with similar results. Inno however has never won IEM Katowice or WCS Global Finals, but he can be comparable to Rogue in terms of achievements, but his peak was never that high as Maru's or Darks. We need to appreciate and enjoy his longevity, however this quality alone does not make him the GOAT. Mvp is in between Rogue and Inno in terms of achievements, peak and longevity, but most of his results came in a much different era. Maru is the most talented from the list i think, however he underperforms too many times to call him the GOAT. He is the Peyton Manning of the SC2, while Rogue is Tom Brady. Who must not be named career was too short to call him the GOAT. Second, one of the most, if not the most important aspect to dermine the GOAT is to analyze how they performed through different eras, patches and meta. In that category, Maru is the undisputed GOAT. From his time in PRIME, hes been great. That is also why Inno cant be goat imo. He was always insane when Terrans were strong, but struggled when his race did. Serral and Rogue also only started to be great when Zerg were clearly overpowered (even Rogue said it) Lastly, your metaphor about football shows that either you are clueless about the NFL,or you are clueless about Maru. Maru has won again and again and again at the highest level (4 gsl in a row not enough), won Proleague (one of the most prestigious competition in Korea), SSL, OSL and many more. Peyton was a god in seasons, but only won the SuperBowl twice, and his win with Denver, even I could have won since the defense did all the job. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
On March 02 2020 23:57 midhigh wrote: Also I don't think you can place any of these players above Rogue without an argument. His peak was as high as the mentioned player, or even the highest ever below Serral's. I would take Rogues career any day of the week from your list, even he is not as talented as Maru or Dark. I don't want to get into balance discussion, so just based on the facts. Rogue has never lost a final, while winning 2 IEM Katowice, 1 WCS Global final and also a GSL. These are the most competitive tourneys. He performs when the stakes are the highest. That is also a very important quality/talent. So in my eyes, Dark, Stats, soO cannot be placed above Rogue just based on their performances when it matters the most. Zest and sOs are as inconsistent as Rogue, so they definitely cannot be higher, with similar results. Inno however has never won IEM Katowice or WCS Global Finals, but he can be comparable to Rogue in terms of achievements, but his peak was never that high as Maru's or Darks. We need to appreciate and enjoy his longevity, however this quality alone does not make him the GOAT. Mvp is in between Rogue and Inno in terms of achievements, peak and longevity, but most of his results came in a much different era. Maru is the most talented from the list i think, however he underperforms too many times to call him the GOAT. He is the Peyton Manning of the SC2, while Rogue is Tom Brady. Who must not be named career was too short to call him the GOAT. Rogue wins finals. Cool. But he struggles to get there. Check why everybody is worried about him at RO8 of Code S. Maybe then you understand. | ||
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Moonerz
United States469 Posts
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On March 03 2020 00:22 a7xEnsiferum wrote: Sorry for my language but that comment is bullshit. First, all Serrals WCS are not worth much in terms of achievements. Id say winning 3 WCS is less impressive than winning 1 GSL. Second, one of the most, if not the most important aspect to dermine the GOAT is to analyze how they performed through different eras, patches and meta. In that category, Maru is the undisputed GOAT. From his time in PRIME, hes been great. That is also why Inno cant be goat imo. He was always insane when Terrans were strong, but struggled when his race did. Serral and Rogue also only started to be great when Zerg were clearly overpowered (even Rogue said it) Lastly, your metaphor about football shows that either you are clueless about the NFL,or you are clueless about Maru. Maru has won again and again and again at the highest level (4 gsl in a row not enough), won Proleague (one of the most prestigious competition in Korea), SSL, OSL and many more. Peyton was a god in seasons, but only won the SuperBowl twice, and his win with Denver, even I could have won since the defense did all the job. sOs and Zest has similar result to Rogue and therefore they cant be above Rogue, but Rogue can be above them? What that doesnt't make any sense. Also saying their results are "similar" is too broad of a statement, Zest has many more trophies than Rogue, argueably just as valuable ones. Zest should be above them both if you ask me, if you want to say they have "similar" results please explain what you mean by that. While I agree Maru is the GOAT, he is not the undisputed GOAT, because that would mean there is no one else in the discussion, there is other players in the discussion and many posters disagree with Maru being the GOAT. You are underestimating Innovation a lot here, he is the clear number two after Maru and sure he mainly won Championships when terran was strong but he did not "struggle" when terran wasn't great, he struggled during those rare periods when terrans were noneexistent in RO8 and forward. SC2 is not filled with terran weak periods and terran strong periods, there are a lot of time when terran was just inbetween doing "okay" and Inno never delivered when the race was actually weak. Its the opposite of being only performing when the race is strong, he never delivered when the race was weak. Two very different things | ||
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parksonsc
175 Posts
He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's. | ||
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