The Serral vs Reynor rivalry that swallowed up the 2019 WCS Circuit concluded with the Finnish Phenom getting a modicum of revenge, avenging two prior finals losses with a 4-1 victory over the upstart Italian in the finals of WCS Fall. In the end, the 2019 season saw Reynor and Serral win two Circuit titles a piece, with Reynor winning WCS Winter: Europe and WCS Summer, while Serral lifted the trophy at WCS Spring and Fall (Neeb was the only other Circuit champion, winning WCS Winter: Americas).
The initial focus of WCS Fall centered on the mad dash to qualify for the WCS Global Finals, with players fighting bitterly over every single point. But once the dust settled there, all attention shifted to the third WCS Circuit finals collision between Reynor and Serral in 2019 (fourth, including WCS Montreal 2018). Reynor reached the finals with an impressive 14-2 map score, toppling the likes of ShoWTimE, Elazer, and SpeCial. He was only outdone by Serral, who recorded a perfect 14-0 map score en route to the finals, including a 3-0 sweep against North American despot Neeb at the penultimate stage.
Reynor snagged the first point of the finals after winning a thrilling elimination race on Acropolis. Serral appeared to take a mid-game lead after he countered Reynor's Mutalisk tech with Corruptors, but he committed the ever-so-common folly of over-producing the dedicated anti-air unit. Reynor's deft transition into a Hydralisk-Lurker army proved to be the game-winning masterstroke, rendering Serral incapable of direct engagements and putting him at a fatal disadvantage in the ensuing base trade.
Unfortunately for Reynor, that promising start would be his best showing of the finals. While he came agonizingly close to breaking Serral with a speedling flood in game two, Serral managed to survive and tie-up the series at 1-1. From there on, Serral looked to be in imperious form. 1-1 became 2-1 after Serral held off Reynor's mid-game Mutas and then extracted a GG with a decisive, Hydra-Roach counter-attack. Serral's fury continued in game four, with Serral snowballing a small, early-game lead into a mid-game victory with a Nydus Worm aided Roach finisher. Finally, Serral capped the series off with another Nydus-Roach attack, capitalizing on a brief window of army size and upgrade superiority to finish Reynor off for good.
With the WCS Fall title, Serral won $20,000 in prize money, his sixth WCS Circuit championship, and tenth premiere title* of his career. The victory also locked down his position as the #1 Circuit seed headed into the Global Finals—enough to give him a 'referee's decision' claim to be the king of the 2019 Circuit, even if Reynor equaled his number of Circuit titles and defeated him in two-out-of-three finals matches (more on that below).
*By Liquipedia classification
The Global Finals Race Goes Cold
The much-anticipated competition to finish within the top eight of the WCS points standings ended up being rather staid, with no contenders able to break through the points cutoff. WCS Fall merely caused a minor rankings shuffle within the previous top eight, without any clear winner but perhaps with one loser: #5 ranked TIME who is guaranteed to be seeded into Serral's group at the Global Finals.
A Worthy Battle For the Circuit Crown
Here's the final tally for Serral and Reynor at the end of the 2019 WCS Circuit. Both players won two championships a piece, with Serral taking Spring and Fall while Reynor took Winter/EU and Summer. Serral swept all three EU Challenger tournaments, while Reynor finished top 8, runner-up, and runner-up. Serral put up an overall WCS Circuit record (offline + online) of 43–4 in matches and 118–32 on map score. Meanwhile, Reynor went 43–7 in matches and 106–47 in maps.
In overall head to head, Serral prevailed 4–3 in matches with a 20–12 map score. In offline matches only, the two tied 2–2 with Serral having a 12–9 map score lead. In FINALS only, Reynor led 2–1, while the two players tied 9–9 in map score.
The verdict? You'd be totally insane to say Reynor has been a better player than Serral so far in 2019. But if you said he was the better player on JUST the Circuit alone? ... We'd say you're still insane, but we'll give you a nicer cell in the asylum.
I came to tl.net in the morning to finish watching the WCS, PUT MY HAND IN THE MIDDLE of the screen to not see spoilers. Yet I got to the read the spoiler on the left right away! Later found out the spoiler button got unchecked for no reason, even though I never touched it.
Ooh boy. Are we going to have another heated 300 post conversation about how Serral isnt even that good because he hasn't beaten fruitdealer yet and his tournament wins don't even matter? "B-b-but he isnt korean.... only korean players can be good, me almost korean, because I only watch korean starcraft, me better than non korean people"
On September 09 2019 13:01 RandomPlayer wrote: I came to tl.net in the morning to finish watching the WCS, PUT MY HAND IN THE MIDDLE of the screen to not see spoilers (even though I have spoilers disabled in settings). Yet I got to the read the spoiler on the left right away! 10 years and you make the same mistakes all over again, terrible site.
10 years passws and you still do not click the Hide Spoilers box, smh
On September 09 2019 13:01 RandomPlayer wrote: I came to tl.net in the morning to finish watching the WCS, PUT MY HAND IN THE MIDDLE of the screen to not see spoilers (even though I have spoilers disabled in settings). Yet I got to the read the spoiler on the left right away! 10 years and you make the same mistakes all over again, terrible site.
Was it a spoiler though? Think about it for a second.
Did you honestly believe, in your heart-of-hearts, that there'd be someone else but Serral? 😁
On September 09 2019 13:01 RandomPlayer wrote: I came to tl.net in the morning to finish watching the WCS, PUT MY HAND IN THE MIDDLE of the screen to not see spoilers. Yet I got to the read the spoiler on the left right away! Later found out the spoiler button got unchecked for no reason, even though I never touched it.
On September 09 2019 13:01 RandomPlayer wrote: I came to tl.net in the morning to finish watching the WCS, PUT MY HAND IN THE MIDDLE of the screen to not see spoilers. Yet I got to the read the spoiler on the left right away! Later found out the spoiler button got unchecked for no reason, even though I never touched it.
Wait this is a brilliant feature. I saw it just goes to the homepage and has the checkbox checked. Honest question: do you think making non-logged-in/first-time users go default to there would be a better idea? I don't know that the checkbox is in the most visible place, and it may cut down on the spoiler posts (a tad) and make us seem more "passersby-friendly" while not really impacting existing users.
Idk, I check TL pretty religiously nowadays (and don't mind spoilers), but I didn't know about that link! I'm still amazed at how simple but smart it is to have it haha, well done
Crazy for one player to be so dominant for so long. 10 premier victories, and handful more 2nds and semis, in the space of 18 months. Hail the King of SC2.
On September 09 2019 13:01 RandomPlayer wrote: I came to tl.net in the morning to finish watching the WCS, PUT MY HAND IN THE MIDDLE of the screen to not see spoilers. Yet I got to the read the spoiler on the left right away! Later found out the spoiler button got unchecked for no reason, even though I never touched it.
Wait this is a brilliant feature. I saw it just goes to the homepage and has the checkbox checked. Honest question: do you think making non-logged-in/first-time users go default to there would be a better idea? I don't know that the checkbox is in the most visible place, and it may cut down on the spoiler posts (a tad) and make us seem more "passersby-friendly" while not really impacting existing users.
Idk, I check TL pretty religiously nowadays (and don't mind spoilers), but I didn't know about that link! I'm still amazed at how simple but smart it is to have it haha, well done
We're of the (highly controversial) opinion that spoiler-free demands are in the vast minority, which is why we elect to present spoilers. You're right that the auto-nospoiler link could be more prominent, let me have a think about how we can do better with that.
On September 09 2019 13:25 Dave4 wrote: Crazy for one player to be so dominant for so long. 10 premier victories, and handful more 2nds and semis, in the space of 18 months. Hail the King of SC2.
If only there was a word for someone who was this dominant for this long, perhaps starting with a "b"...
On September 09 2019 13:01 RandomPlayer wrote: I came to tl.net in the morning to finish watching the WCS, PUT MY HAND IN THE MIDDLE of the screen to not see spoilers. Yet I got to the read the spoiler on the left right away! Later found out the spoiler button got unchecked for no reason, even though I never touched it.
Wait this is a brilliant feature. I saw it just goes to the homepage and has the checkbox checked. Honest question: do you think making non-logged-in/first-time users go default to there would be a better idea? I don't know that the checkbox is in the most visible place, and it may cut down on the spoiler posts (a tad) and make us seem more "passersby-friendly" while not really impacting existing users.
Idk, I check TL pretty religiously nowadays (and don't mind spoilers), but I didn't know about that link! I'm still amazed at how simple but smart it is to have it haha, well done
We're of the (highly controversial) opinion that spoiler-free demands are in the vast minority, which is why we elect to present spoilers. You're right that the auto-nospoiler link could be more prominent, let me have a think about how we can do better with that.
Thank you for the link, I will use it going forward.
P.S. Serral is getting even more dominant, he is becoming Flash of sc2.
On September 09 2019 13:25 Dave4 wrote: Crazy for one player to be so dominant for so long. 10 premier victories, and handful more 2nds and semis, in the space of 18 months. Hail the King of SC2.
If only there was a word for someone who was this dominant for this long, perhaps starting with a "b"...
On September 09 2019 13:01 RandomPlayer wrote: I came to tl.net in the morning to finish watching the WCS, PUT MY HAND IN THE MIDDLE of the screen to not see spoilers. Yet I got to the read the spoiler on the left right away! Later found out the spoiler button got unchecked for no reason, even though I never touched it.
Wait this is a brilliant feature. I saw it just goes to the homepage and has the checkbox checked. Honest question: do you think making non-logged-in/first-time users go default to there would be a better idea? I don't know that the checkbox is in the most visible place, and it may cut down on the spoiler posts (a tad) and make us seem more "passersby-friendly" while not really impacting existing users.
Idk, I check TL pretty religiously nowadays (and don't mind spoilers), but I didn't know about that link! I'm still amazed at how simple but smart it is to have it haha, well done
We're of the (highly controversial) opinion that spoiler-free demands are in the vast minority, which is why we elect to present spoilers. You're right that the auto-nospoiler link could be more prominent, let me have a think about how we can do better with that.
Thank you for the link, I will use it going forward.
P.S. Serral is getting even more dominant, he is becoming Flash of sc2.
Only problem is that Flash is Flash because his wins were against the best of the best, over and over again. I think it's fair to say that Serral is the best in the world right now, though there may be some mild uncertainty. But Flash? Serral might wind up being that kind of figure, but you really can't compare WCS wins to Korean Kespa-era bw star leagues. These things are not even remotely close, imo.
On September 09 2019 14:41 showstealer1829 wrote: Another Circuit Event. Another Tournament where we could have got Serral and Reynor to toss a coin 7 times and not wasted 3 days
You’re right, let’s do that next time. Oh, and GSL vs the world does also not need to be played, let us give the trophy to Serral and not waste our time. BlizzCon ... ?
When its time to build a base onto the plot of land in Pornainen, Serral shouldn't underestimate the size of his silverware treasury room. Note that it shouldn't be placed near or over a point where community sponsored ultra fast internet cable connects to the base for minimizing possible magnetic interference caused by shit tons of metal piled up there. For giving better impression on all that glimmer the treasury of the base, the room could be placed on a southern side of the future castle, with big windows. That way we mere mortals crawling on a creep could get dazzled from glitter by the sun-induced immense reflection coming from the God-King's citadel.
Executive people there in municipality of Pornainen at least understand something about marketing. Now, next, some architecture company could help Serral, and plan the house. Spire must be high, and creep spread shall not be obstructed at the surroundings.
A golf course extension with few extra holes could also start directly from backyards (from the edge of the creep), that way the God-King won't have to invest for ling speed when annual Serral Open is played. Just pick up the baggy and...
On September 09 2019 14:41 showstealer1829 wrote: Another Circuit Event. Another Tournament where we could have got Serral and Reynor to toss a coin 7 times and not wasted 3 days
You’re right, let’s do that next time. Oh, and GSL vs the world does also not need to be played, let us give the trophy to Serral and not waste our time. BlizzCon ... ?
Considering they've successfully killed the Korean scene thanks to the Region Lock. Sure
It's incredible how Serral is able to perform on such a high level for what, 18 months? While staying in europe. I thought his skill would eventually decrease since theres no one good enough to challenge him but somehow he still manages to beat basically everyone else. Including the Koreans.
That first game of Reynor vs Serral was mind blowing, SpeCial played amazing this tournament sad to see he failed to get to the finals.
Having the best player in the world slaughtering underdogs over and over is surprisingly enough getting a bit stale. Looking forward to Blizzcon to see if someone can topple this giant.
On September 09 2019 16:01 Shuffleblade wrote: That first game of Reynor vs Serral was mind blowing, SpeCial played amazing this tournament sad to see he failed to get to the finals.
Having the best player in the world slaughtering underdogs over and over is surprisingly enough getting a bit stale. Looking forward to Blizzcon to see if someone can topple this giant.
While being self-admitted shameless Serral fan-boy, I agree. At this point it would be much more interesting if Serral would get always placed in the hard side of brackets with top Koreans (as we know if his opponent isn't Top 20 Korean player, Reynor, or Neeb no matter what he does, doesn't really count and is just mundane ), forced to play extra games in group stages without any short cuts, using -1 map handicap while victory condition for him is BO5 while others enjoy BO3 luxury.
Serral's preparation time must be minimized also, and good way to do that is to force him play ladder during pauses in a tournament.
All of these extra victory conditions would ensure that:
1) Level of competition will be enough good 2) Accumulating sample - against Top Koreans - would pile up more faster 3) Making his real clutch-factor and skill level more easily visible 4) Minimize amount of whining (all kinds of) 5) In eventual and probable cases of still winning regardless, castrate all possible excuses against the value of the win 6) Get faster big enough sample for next balance patch 7) Activate tl.net forums with interesting discussions 8) Recommend his move to Korea and GSL to enjoy luxury of preparation time, that doesn't apparently improve his chances to crack his opponents while same time can be used for that against Serral 9) Increase the likelihood Serral will be someday in a distant future ranked #1 in tl.net, hopefully before he retires or SC2 gets shut down by Blizzard 10) Other things not fully thought out yet, but certainly making things more interesting
SC2 World Champion shouldn't ever apologize to anybody how good he is, or what matchups he have to play. It all should be arranged that way there are no room for excuses, in way that even the most hard boiled Korean elitist would agree its undisputed.
The victory also locked down his position as the #1 Circuit seed headed into the Global Finals—enough to give him a 'referee's decision' claim to be the king of the 2019 Circuit, even if Reynor equaled his number of Circuit titles and defeated him in two-out-of-three finals matches
That's a bit odd to call it a "referee's decision" like it's only a technical #1 win, because WCS Spring featured a semi-final clash between the two where Serral demolished Reynor 3-0. Serral would have been ahead as #1 seed if that happened in the finals too, because of superior results in every global tournament this year, and in WCS Challenger since Serral won all of those.
I'd call it a shared throne, considering that Serral hasn't lost to anyone in WCS since Winter 2018 besides Reynor, and Reynor hasn't lost to anyone besides Serral in WCS since his debut one year ago. But if you have to pick just one, Serral is the clear winner, with "only counting WCS finals" being the single unique factor he's behind in.
On September 09 2019 14:41 showstealer1829 wrote: Another Circuit Event. Another Tournament where we could have got Serral and Reynor to toss a coin 7 times and not wasted 3 days
You may not like/care if a ZvZ but if you watched the finals you will definitely notice a skill/mind difference and apart from great game one all the rest were one sided. So NO, no coin toss can be done because of Serral. The right metaphor would be to just give him the trophy Beforehand. Looking at latest tournaments it seems like:
Reynor is almost (still beatable) a level above anyone but Serral (foreigner scene) Serral is a level above Reynor
On September 09 2019 16:37 Neemi wrote: I'd call it a shared throne, considering that Serral hasn't lost to anyone in WCS since Winter 2018 besides Reynor, and Reynor hasn't lost to anyone besides Serral in WCS since his debut one year ago. But if you have to pick just one, Serral is the clear winner, with "only counting WCS finals" being the single unique factor he's behind in.
Maybe in WCS, but I'd like to remind you the Qlash tournament in Italy, and while Reynor ultimatedly prevailed, Drogo defeated on the winner bracket and gave him a really hard time.
Poor performance by zerg race in this tournament: 2 random players in the semis. Why zerg talents like Lambo and Scarlett allowed that to happen? Disappointed!
On September 09 2019 16:37 Neemi wrote: I'd call it a shared throne, considering that Serral hasn't lost to anyone in WCS since Winter 2018 besides Reynor, and Reynor hasn't lost to anyone besides Serral in WCS since his debut one year ago. But if you have to pick just one, Serral is the clear winner, with "only counting WCS finals" being the single unique factor he's behind in.
Maybe in WCS, but I'd like to remind you the Qlash tournament in Italy, and while Reynor ultimatedly prevailed, Drogo defeated on the winner bracket and gave him a really hard time.
Absolutely, Reynor also lost pretty decisively to SpeCial in GSL vs. The World recently, he's definitely mortal outside of WCS.
I don't claim that Serral is the one while recognizing that for the status there must be some minimum achievements on Korean soil accompanied due historical reasons. (back-to-back GSL vs The World can be just ignored, nil, doesn't count)
But it also seems to me that 'Bonjwa' -category is empty. Analogy would be the last two decades as its been like waiting of Jesus' next coming (while writing this already sandbacked, delayed, and move-goal-posted some 2000+ years by those who wait most eagerly, winks winks).
If in some utmostly unimaginable scenario SC2 will be played still after two millenia, all future Bonjwa canditates are likely shot down using Serral as excuse.
Whole word is just ideal state of potential in an imagination. When happening before our own eyes, we are still blinded by that ideal.
[Disclaimer: religious analogy is just for pointing out certain things about human history and psyche: next coming of J. was originally imminent - so has been the ideal of Bonjwa - always coming, never actualizing]
On September 09 2019 17:17 UnLarva wrote: About that Bonjwa -status.
I don't claim that Serral is the one while recognizing that for the status there must be some minimum achievements on Korean soil accompanied due historical reasons. (back-to-back GSL vs The World can be just ignored, nil, doesn't count)
But it also seems to me that 'Bonjwa' -category is empty. Analogy would be the last two decades as its been like waiting of Jesus' next coming (while writing this already sandbacked, delayed, and move-goal-posted some 2000+ years by those who wait most eagerly, winks winks).
If in some utmostly unimaginable scenario SC2 will be played still after two millenia, all future Bonjwa canditates are likely shot down using Serral as excuse.
Whole word is just ideal state of potential in an imagination. When happening before our own eyes, we are still blinded by that ideal.
[Disclaimer: religious analogy is just for pointing out certain things about human history and psyche: next coming of J. was originally imminent - so has been the ideal of Bonjwa - always coming, never actualizing]
Someone should really break down the results of the 5 BW Bonjwas (BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, sAviOr, Flash) and figure out it was really fair not to award that title to anyone in SC2. MVP, Life, Maru, Serral and others have had very good results over a long time too.
On September 09 2019 17:17 UnLarva wrote: About that Bonjwa -status.
I don't claim that Serral is the one while recognizing that for the status there must be some minimum achievements on Korean soil accompanied due historical reasons. (back-to-back GSL vs The World can be just ignored, nil, doesn't count)
But it also seems to me that 'Bonjwa' -category is empty. Analogy would be the last two decades as its been like waiting of Jesus' next coming (while writing this already sandbacked, delayed, and move-goal-posted some 2000+ years by those who wait most eagerly, winks winks).
If in some utmostly unimaginable scenario SC2 will be played still after two millenia, all future Bonjwa canditates are likely shot down using Serral as excuse.
Whole word is just ideal state of potential in an imagination. When happening before our own eyes, we are still blinded by that ideal.
[Disclaimer: religious analogy is just for pointing out certain things about human history and psyche: next coming of J. was originally imminent - so has been the ideal of Bonjwa - always coming, never actualizing]
Someone should really break down the results of the 5 BW Bonjwas (BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, sAviOr, Flash) and figure out it was really fair not to award that title to anyone in SC2. MVP, Life, Maru, Serral and others have had very good results over a long time too.
I don't think there's anyone in SC2 who has had a bonjwa-esque run. In 2002 season, Nada won 3/3 MSL and 1/3 OSL (he won the OSL in 2003 but it started in 2002). That's 4 out of 6 of the most important tournaments. From November 2003 to November 2004, iloveoov won 3 MSLs in a row as well as an OSL (along with OSL semi). That's also 4 out of 6 of the Starleagues within that time period. Flash is the most impressive. He was in all 6 Starleague finals in 2010 and won 4 of them (he also won WCG). There's probably no SC2 player who had a run that was close to any of these three.
Boxer won 2 OSL, OSL final, and WCG in 2001 (there was only one MSL in 2001). So he won 2/4 Starleagues and was in 3/4 finals. Savior was in 4 MSL finals in a row (won 3 of them) and then made an OSL finals the season after his streak of MSL finals
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
For comparison, I look at Maru and Serral's peaks (I think they are the highest and I don't know much about WoL so I excluded Mvp). In 2018, Maru won 4/9 of the premier tournaments (3 out of 5 among GSL, IEM WC, Blizzcon) he was in for 2018. Serral won 7/9. If you exclude WCS Circuit and HSC, he won 2/4 (1/2 among IEM WC and Blizzcon). It's hard to compare things to Brood War because they didn't have much else besides MSL and OSL, which were very prestigious. However, in SC2 there are many tournaments, some more prestigious than others.
The thing is, I think Serral and Maru both came close to Boxer and Savior's runs in 2018 but that very fact means neither can be bonjwa, as a bonjwa is supposed to have no rival near him. That is the main reason why Jaedong was not considered a bonjwa in 2009. To give an example, I think you'd have to do something ridiculous like win Blizzcon, 1-2 GSL, IEM WC to be equivalent to a Brood War bonjwa.
Note: I should've mentioned other smaller tournaments that the older bonjwas won but I decided not to because I think what I said was already enough and I know very little about the obscure tournaments.
On September 09 2019 17:42 Zeon0 wrote: We should absolutely start another Serral = Bonjwa discussion
Haha. Trying to point out irrelevance of whole "discussion" as the term itself have no meaning.
Instead, 'Serral' is used like an adjective or noun to describe something far above and beyond a field; "Blah blah you're like Serral", "Serralishque", "Serral-like"...
People get 'Serraled' if they got overran decisively.
These usages are starting to cover also other fields of life than just esports.
We don't need that word 'Bonjwa' anymore in practice, as several intended, and implicitly included (but seldom clarified) meanings of the word actually appear already much better in usage of variously suffixed Serral-words.
At this point I'm just getting bored of the Serral domination. I'm never going to dispute how good the guy is and he plays some incredibly entertaining games but it just feels like eh, Serral won another premier tournament.
On September 09 2019 16:37 Neemi wrote: I'd call it a shared throne, considering that Serral hasn't lost to anyone in WCS since Winter 2018 besides Reynor, and Reynor hasn't lost to anyone besides Serral in WCS since his debut one year ago. But if you have to pick just one, Serral is the clear winner, with "only counting WCS finals" being the single unique factor he's behind in.
Maybe in WCS, but I'd like to remind you the Qlash tournament in Italy, and while Reynor ultimatedly prevailed, Drogo defeated on the winner bracket and gave him a really hard time.
It's weird, in other tournaments, Reynor seems vulnerable even against foreigners but in wcs only Serral can stop him.
On September 09 2019 17:17 UnLarva wrote: About that Bonjwa -status.
I don't claim that Serral is the one while recognizing that for the status there must be some minimum achievements on Korean soil accompanied due historical reasons. (back-to-back GSL vs The World can be just ignored, nil, doesn't count)
But it also seems to me that 'Bonjwa' -category is empty. Analogy would be the last two decades as its been like waiting of Jesus' next coming (while writing this already sandbacked, delayed, and move-goal-posted some 2000+ years by those who wait most eagerly, winks winks).
If in some utmostly unimaginable scenario SC2 will be played still after two millenia, all future Bonjwa canditates are likely shot down using Serral as excuse.
Whole word is just ideal state of potential in an imagination. When happening before our own eyes, we are still blinded by that ideal.
[Disclaimer: religious analogy is just for pointing out certain things about human history and psyche: next coming of J. was originally imminent - so has been the ideal of Bonjwa - always coming, never actualizing]
Someone should really break down the results of the 5 BW Bonjwas (BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, sAviOr, Flash) and figure out it was really fair not to award that title to anyone in SC2. MVP, Life, Maru, Serral and others have had very good results over a long time too.
I don't think there's anyone in SC2 who has had a bonjwa-esque run. In 2002 season, Nada won 3/3 MSL and 1/3 OSL (he won the OSL in 2003 but it started in 2002). That's 4 out of 6 of the most important tournaments. From November 2003 to November 2004, iloveoov won 3 MSLs in a row as well as an OSL (along with OSL semi). That's also 4 out of 6 of the Starleagues within that time period. Flash is the most impressive. He was in all 6 Starleague finals in 2010 and won 4 of them (he also won WCG). There's probably no SC2 player who had a run that was close to any of these three.
Boxer won 2 OSL, OSL final, and WCG in 2001 (there was only one MSL in 2001). So he won 2/4 Starleagues and was in 3/4 finals. Savior was in 4 MSL finals in a row (won 3 of them) and then made an OSL finals the season after his streak of MSL finals
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
For comparison, I look at Maru and Serral's peaks (I think they are the highest and I don't know much about WoL so I excluded Mvp). In 2018, Maru won 4/9 of the premier tournaments (3 out of 5 among GSL, IEM WC, Blizzcon) he was in for 2018. Serral won 7/9. If you exclude WCS Circuit and HSC, he won 2/4 (1/2 among IEM WC and Blizzcon). It's hard to compare things to Brood War because they didn't have much else besides MSL and OSL, which were very prestigious. However, in SC2 there are many tournaments, some more prestigious than others.
The thing is, I think Serral and Maru both came close to Boxer and Savior's runs in 2018 but that very fact means neither can be bonjwa, as a bonjwa is supposed to have no rival near him. That is the main reason why Jaedong was not considered a bonjwa in 2009. To give an example, I think you'd have to do something ridiculous like win Blizzcon, 1-2 GSL, IEM WC to be equivalent to a Brood War bonjwa.
Note: I should've mentioned other smaller tournaments that the older bonjwas won but I decided not to because I think what I said was already enough and I know very little about the obscure tournaments.
Career winrate has nothing to with being Bonjwa(the earlier Bonjwas in Brood War had time to grow old and weaker so that their overall win ratio considerably declined); in any of case, just to name three, Byun had a 71% career winrate(only 59% offline) while Serral has 69% overall(67.5% offline) and Inno 67.5%(64%): comparable with those of the BW players you listed. Only one between Serral and Maru could theorically be bonjwa(as it was the case of Flash over Jaedong), but having two players that dominant doesn't imply that none of them could be.
To my understanding, being a Bonjwa isn't necessarily restricted to a one year run but simply to certain period of absolute domination which could be shorter or(very rarely) longer; Serral, Life, Maru, Rogue, Mvp, TaeJa all had periods of bonjwaesque domination over Sc2, of which Serral's is statistically the most dominant(if we look at his streak of his 6 Premier titles) or the most prolonged(20 months to win 10 Premier tournaments out of the 17 he participated in; note that Serral can steal beat TaeJa's 11 Premier titles out of 33 obtained in 24 months).
The main point is that Brood War had a single scene with a well established hierarchy in tournaments, making it way easier to understand who the best player was, and Bonjwa is a title tied to unanimous recognition. Serral's problem(as well as TaeJa's and, to a certain extent, even Life's before him) is that this won't happen unless he wins Code S, since part of the community will keep ignoring his WCS titles.
If we look at numbers and titles alone, Serral is a de facto Bonjwa(undefeated in series for over ten months, best offline streak ever and best streak against koreans, against whom Serral holds a 80%+ win ratio in series since the start of 2018; on less than 50 matches, a size comparable to the games Dark will play against koreans in 2019, but against opponents of very high average ranking: roughly 15, worse being 67, which means he only faced the hardest competition).
On September 09 2019 17:17 UnLarva wrote: About that Bonjwa -status.
I don't claim that Serral is the one while recognizing that for the status there must be some minimum achievements on Korean soil accompanied due historical reasons. (back-to-back GSL vs The World can be just ignored, nil, doesn't count)
But it also seems to me that 'Bonjwa' -category is empty. Analogy would be the last two decades as its been like waiting of Jesus' next coming (while writing this already sandbacked, delayed, and move-goal-posted some 2000+ years by those who wait most eagerly, winks winks).
If in some utmostly unimaginable scenario SC2 will be played still after two millenia, all future Bonjwa canditates are likely shot down using Serral as excuse.
Whole word is just ideal state of potential in an imagination. When happening before our own eyes, we are still blinded by that ideal.
[Disclaimer: religious analogy is just for pointing out certain things about human history and psyche: next coming of J. was originally imminent - so has been the ideal of Bonjwa - always coming, never actualizing]
Someone should really break down the results of the 5 BW Bonjwas (BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, sAviOr, Flash) and figure out it was really fair not to award that title to anyone in SC2. MVP, Life, Maru, Serral and others have had very good results over a long time too.
I don't think there's anyone in SC2 who has had a bonjwa-esque run. In 2002 season, Nada won 3/3 MSL and 1/3 OSL (he won the OSL in 2003 but it started in 2002). That's 4 out of 6 of the most important tournaments. From November 2003 to November 2004, iloveoov won 3 MSLs in a row as well as an OSL (along with OSL semi). That's also 4 out of 6 of the Starleagues within that time period. Flash is the most impressive. He was in all 6 Starleague finals in 2010 and won 4 of them (he also won WCG). There's probably no SC2 player who had a run that was close to any of these three.
Boxer won 2 OSL, OSL final, and WCG in 2001 (there was only one MSL in 2001). So he won 2/4 Starleagues and was in 3/4 finals. Savior was in 4 MSL finals in a row (won 3 of them) and then made an OSL finals the season after his streak of MSL finals
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
For comparison, I look at Maru and Serral's peaks (I think they are the highest and I don't know much about WoL so I excluded Mvp). In 2018, Maru won 4/9 of the premier tournaments (3 out of 5 among GSL, IEM WC, Blizzcon) he was in for 2018. Serral won 7/9. If you exclude WCS Circuit and HSC, he won 2/4 (1/2 among IEM WC and Blizzcon). It's hard to compare things to Brood War because they didn't have much else besides MSL and OSL, which were very prestigious. However, in SC2 there are many tournaments, some more prestigious than others.
The thing is, I think Serral and Maru both came close to Boxer and Savior's runs in 2018 but that very fact means neither can be bonjwa, as a bonjwa is supposed to have no rival near him. That is the main reason why Jaedong was not considered a bonjwa in 2009. To give an example, I think you'd have to do something ridiculous like win Blizzcon, 1-2 GSL, IEM WC to be equivalent to a Brood War bonjwa.
Note: I should've mentioned other smaller tournaments that the older bonjwas won but I decided not to because I think what I said was already enough and I know very little about the obscure tournaments.
Career winrate has nothing to with being Bonjwa(the earlier Bonjwas in Brood War had time to grow old and weaker so that their overall win ratio considerably declined); in any of case, just to name three, Byun had a 71% career winrate(only 59% offline) while Serral has 69% overall(67.5% offline) and Inno 67.5%(64%): comparable with those of the BW players you listed. Only one between Serral and Maru could theorically be bonjwa(as it was the case of Flash over Jaedong), but having two players that dominant doesn't imply that none of them could be.
To my understanding, being a Bonjwa isn't necessarily restricted to a one year run but simply to certain period of absolute domination which could be shorter or(very rarely) longer; Serral, Life, Maru, Rogue, Mvp, TaeJa all had periods of bonjwaesque domination over Sc2, of which Serral's is statistically the most dominant(if we look at his streak of his 6 Premier titles) or the most prolonged(20 months to win 10 Premier tournaments out of the 17 he participated in).
I only used career winrate to illustrate how SC2 players are generally less dominant than Brood War players. The Broodwar players I listed had years with like 70% winrate or higher (Flash had multiple years of mid 70% winrate while Jaedong had multiple years of 70% winrate). That their lifetime winrate is better than the greatest SC2 player's peak-year winrates I think shows Brood War players dominate harder than SC2 players.
The reason why Serral and Maru can't be bonjwa is because they dominated over same time period. Flash and Jaedong's peaks were almost a year apart (Jaedong in 2009, Flash in 2010) and thus had only a little overlap. Even though Serral has been playing amazingly for 20 months, I'd argue he was only undisputed best player for a couple of them whereas most bonjwas were clearly the best player throughout most of their peak..I'll admit that it's likely no other SC2 player has consistently stayed in the top for so long while winning many tournaments (Stats and Dark have been around as consistent but they don't win that many tournaments).
Ultimately, I don't think it's reasonable to impose Brood War's definition of bonjwa on SC2 because it's a lot harder to dominate in SC2. That doesn't make Serral and Maru worse than the BW greats, of course. They are obviously among the greatest SC2 players.
The victory also locked down his position as the #1 Circuit seed headed into the Global Finals—enough to give him a 'referee's decision' claim to be the king of the 2019 Circuit, even if Reynor equaled his number of Circuit titles and defeated him in two-out-of-three finals matches
That's a bit odd to call it a "referee's decision" like it's only a technical #1 win, because WCS Spring featured a semi-final clash between the two where Serral demolished Reynor 3-0. Serral would have been ahead as #1 seed if that happened in the finals too, because of superior results in every global tournament this year, and in WCS Challenger since Serral won all of those.
I'd call it a shared throne, considering that Serral hasn't lost to anyone in WCS since Winter 2018 besides Reynor, and Reynor hasn't lost to anyone besides Serral in WCS since his debut one year ago. But if you have to pick just one, Serral is the clear winner, with "only counting WCS finals" being the single unique factor he's behind in.
"The reason why Serral and Maru can't be bonjwa is because they dominated over same time period." - Anc13nt
I agree with that notion but I do not agree how that notion is used (not least in these boards are argued, nothing against your chain of argumentation particularly).
Bonjwa must dominate (doesn't imply 100% win rate, which is absurdity in frameworks of SC2) over his entire field of competition against considerably lengthy period of time (implying directly also that happens during his/hers career peak). However if it can be argued that Serral cannot be considered Bonjwa because he doesn't participate the league with all best players participating i.e. GSL, that same argument can be directly applied to GSL as a whole and all GSL players as well (they miss there Reynor, Neeb too, not only Serral).
That's symmetric. We must compare rates of extra GSL and extra Circuit dominance over the whole top SC2 scene.
How long? Against whom exactly? Must a future SC2 bonjwa dominate over whom and to what degree to be considered as such?
A random result between Maru and Serral in a random tournament cannot decide that properly in current world of SC2 environment. Maru winning Blizzcon alone wouldn't make him a bonjwa, exactly because we must use same arguments and apply them equally to all.
The problem with the Serral = Bonjwa discussion is that his domination mostly encompasses tournaments from which the rest of the best players in the world are barred. "But you can't blame Serral because koreans aren't allowed in most tournaments", no I am not blaming Serral but its not about apointing blame its about answering the question if Serral has unquestionably dominated the top level of professional starcraft 2 for a long period of time.
No one can do that while dodging most of the highest level of starcraft 2 tournaments, it just isn't possible, Serral not competing in GSL pretty much disqualifies him from the Bonjwa discussion.
On September 09 2019 18:45 Anc13nt wrote: Serral won 7/9. If you exclude WCS Circuit and HSC, he won 2/4 (1/2 among IEM WC and Blizzcon).
That is misleading, removing GSL and super tournaments just because he didn't participate in those tournaments only skew the discussion. A Bonjwa doesn't win the tournaments he competes in, he wins the biggest most competetive tournaments. I'm not saying Serrals wcs wins doesn't matter (which I've said before and changed my mind about) but when we are discussing being bonjwa or not we are entering a whole other discussion.
In 2018 Serral won 2/8 of the most prestigious tournaments and Maru won 3/8. The three remaning champions are Rogue, Stats and Classic.
I have said it before and I will say it again, looking forward to blizzcon and hoping for a protoss buff or zerg nerf coming.
I'm delighted that Serral has already the company established in his name. According to Suomen Yritysrekisteri (Finnish registry of companies/corporations) https://suomenyritysrekisteri.fi/yrityshaku/serral/
Serral Oy ('Serral Ltd')
Since 2018. "Education, and supporting activities"
Google: Serral Oy
Going to be lot more easier to get control over assets and competing meta, and fighting over brands.
(not bothering to pay for official registry information behind the paywall. Note that information posted here now is perfectly, and freely available for everybody)
€: he would be the 2nd sc2 bonjwa if Life didn't throw one game for money.
FTFY
Well he got condemned for trowing 2 game actualy vs Terminator and Dream, and the bet on some of his other games got cancelled because of strange line mouvment if I remember right.
On September 09 2019 17:42 Zeon0 wrote: We should absolutely start another Serral = Bonjwa discussion
Haha. Trying to point out irrelevance of whole "discussion" as the term itself have no meaning.
Instead, 'Serral' is used like an adjective or noun to describe something far above and beyond a field; "Blah blah you're like Serral", "Serralishque", "Serral-like"...
People get 'Serraled' if they got overran decisively.
These usages are starting to cover also other fields of life than just esports.
We don't need that word 'Bonjwa' anymore in practice, as several intended, and implicitly included (but seldom clarified) meanings of the word actually appear already much better in usage of variously suffixed Serral-words.
Haha this is nice, I like it.
So going full Serral is basically the opposite of going full foreigner. Or Serralish control the opposite of NA control
On September 09 2019 20:51 UnLarva wrote: "The reason why Serral and Maru can't be bonjwa is because they dominated over same time period." - Anc13nt
I agree with that notion but I do not agree how that notion is used (not least in these boards are argued, nothing against your chain of argumentation particularly).
Bonjwa must dominate (doesn't imply 100% win rate, which is absurdity in frameworks of SC2) over his entire field of competition against considerably lengthy period of time (implying directly also that happens during his/hers career peak). However if it can be argued that Serral cannot be considered Bonjwa because he doesn't participate the league with all best players participating i.e. GSL, that same argument can be directly applied to GSL as a whole and all GSL players as well (they miss there Reynor, Neeb too, not only Serral).
That's symmetric. We must compare rates of extra GSL and extra Circuit dominance over the whole top SC2 scene.
How long? Against whom exactly? Must a future SC2 bonjwa dominate over whom and to what degree to be considered as such?
A random result between Maru and Serral in a random tournament cannot decide that properly in current world of SC2 environment. Maru winning Blizzcon alone wouldn't make him a bonjwa, exactly because we must use same arguments and apply them equally to all.
Lift the lock already!
In regards to 2019 you might have a point, that several foreigners are on par with the world class koreans. For 2018 look at GSL vs the world and Blizzcon, look at the results, the brackets and tell me that the top 10 players in the world had more than one foreigner (Serral).
Serral dominating the foreign scene in 2018 does not even register for a bonjwa discussion, it is his 2019 results that does that. Sadly the reason Serral is dominating "the world" argueably this year is because the level of play in korea has deteriorated. Look at the GSL vs world results in 2019 and compare it to 2018, it is evident foreigners are stronger compared to koreans than in previous years and therefore Serrals domination of the wcs circuit means more.
On September 09 2019 17:17 UnLarva wrote: About that Bonjwa -status.
I don't claim that Serral is the one while recognizing that for the status there must be some minimum achievements on Korean soil accompanied due historical reasons. (back-to-back GSL vs The World can be just ignored, nil, doesn't count)
But it also seems to me that 'Bonjwa' -category is empty. Analogy would be the last two decades as its been like waiting of Jesus' next coming (while writing this already sandbacked, delayed, and move-goal-posted some 2000+ years by those who wait most eagerly, winks winks).
If in some utmostly unimaginable scenario SC2 will be played still after two millenia, all future Bonjwa canditates are likely shot down using Serral as excuse.
Whole word is just ideal state of potential in an imagination. When happening before our own eyes, we are still blinded by that ideal.
[Disclaimer: religious analogy is just for pointing out certain things about human history and psyche: next coming of J. was originally imminent - so has been the ideal of Bonjwa - always coming, never actualizing]
Someone should really break down the results of the 5 BW Bonjwas (BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, sAviOr, Flash) and figure out it was really fair not to award that title to anyone in SC2. MVP, Life, Maru, Serral and others have had very good results over a long time too.
I don't think there's anyone in SC2 who has had a bonjwa-esque run. In 2002 season, Nada won 3/3 MSL and 1/3 OSL (he won the OSL in 2003 but it started in 2002). That's 4 out of 6 of the most important tournaments. From November 2003 to November 2004, iloveoov won 3 MSLs in a row as well as an OSL (along with OSL semi). That's also 4 out of 6 of the Starleagues within that time period. Flash is the most impressive. He was in all 6 Starleague finals in 2010 and won 4 of them (he also won WCG). There's probably no SC2 player who had a run that was close to any of these three.
Boxer won 2 OSL, OSL final, and WCG in 2001 (there was only one MSL in 2001). So he won 2/4 Starleagues and was in 3/4 finals. Savior was in 4 MSL finals in a row (won 3 of them) and then made an OSL finals the season after his streak of MSL finals
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
For comparison, I look at Maru and Serral's peaks (I think they are the highest and I don't know much about WoL so I excluded Mvp). In 2018, Maru won 4/9 of the premier tournaments (3 out of 5 among GSL, IEM WC, Blizzcon) he was in for 2018. Serral won 7/9. If you exclude WCS Circuit and HSC, he won 2/4 (1/2 among IEM WC and Blizzcon). It's hard to compare things to Brood War because they didn't have much else besides MSL and OSL, which were very prestigious. However, in SC2 there are many tournaments, some more prestigious than others.
The thing is, I think Serral and Maru both came close to Boxer and Savior's runs in 2018 but that very fact means neither can be bonjwa, as a bonjwa is supposed to have no rival near him. That is the main reason why Jaedong was not considered a bonjwa in 2009. To give an example, I think you'd have to do something ridiculous like win Blizzcon, 1-2 GSL, IEM WC to be equivalent to a Brood War bonjwa.
Note: I should've mentioned other smaller tournaments that the older bonjwas won but I decided not to because I think what I said was already enough and I know very little about the obscure tournaments.
Career winrate has nothing to with being Bonjwa(the earlier Bonjwas in Brood War had time to grow old and weaker so that their overall win ratio considerably declined); in any of case, just to name three, Byun had a 71% career winrate(only 59% offline) while Serral has 69% overall(67.5% offline) and Inno 67.5%(64%): comparable with those of the BW players you listed. Only one between Serral and Maru could theorically be bonjwa(as it was the case of Flash over Jaedong), but having two players that dominant doesn't imply that none of them could be.
To my understanding, being a Bonjwa isn't necessarily restricted to a one year run but simply to certain period of absolute domination which could be shorter or(very rarely) longer; Serral, Life, Maru, Rogue, Mvp, TaeJa all had periods of bonjwaesque domination over Sc2, of which Serral's is statistically the most dominant(if we look at his streak of his 6 Premier titles) or the most prolonged(20 months to win 10 Premier tournaments out of the 17 he participated in).
I only used career winrate to illustrate how SC2 players are generally less dominant than Brood War players. The Broodwar players I listed had years with like 70% winrate or higher (Flash had multiple years of mid 70% winrate while Jaedong had multiple years of 70% winrate). That their lifetime winrate is better than the greatest SC2 player's peak-year winrates I think shows Brood War players dominate harder than SC2 players.
The reason why Serral and Maru can't be bonjwa is because they dominated over same time period. Flash and Jaedong's peaks were almost a year apart (Jaedong in 2009, Flash in 2010) and thus had only a little overlap. Even though Serral has been playing amazingly for 20 months, I'd argue he was only undisputed best player for a couple of them whereas most bonjwas were clearly the best player throughout most of their peak..I'll admit that it's likely no other SC2 player has consistently stayed in the top for so long while winning many tournaments (Stats and Dark have been around as consistent but they don't win that many tournaments).
Ultimately, I don't think it's reasonable to impose Brood War's definition of bonjwa on SC2 because it's a lot harder to dominate in SC2. That doesn't make Serral and Maru worse than the BW greats, of course. They are obviously among the greatest SC2 players.
Instead of trying to call Serral a Bonjwa, why don't we just make "Serral" the SC2 equivalent of Bonjwa? I think that'll let the old fans leave their favorite term retired while making clear that Serral has done something completely unprecedented on the SC2 scene.
On September 09 2019 20:51 UnLarva wrote: "The reason why Serral and Maru can't be bonjwa is because they dominated over same time period." - Anc13nt
I agree with that notion but I do not agree how that notion is used (not least in these boards are argued, nothing against your chain of argumentation particularly).
Bonjwa must dominate (doesn't imply 100% win rate, which is absurdity in frameworks of SC2) over his entire field of competition against considerably lengthy period of time (implying directly also that happens during his/hers career peak). However if it can be argued that Serral cannot be considered Bonjwa because he doesn't participate the league with all best players participating i.e. GSL, that same argument can be directly applied to GSL as a whole and all GSL players as well (they miss there Reynor, Neeb too, not only Serral).
That's symmetric. We must compare rates of extra GSL and extra Circuit dominance over the whole top SC2 scene.
How long? Against whom exactly? Must a future SC2 bonjwa dominate over whom and to what degree to be considered as such?
A random result between Maru and Serral in a random tournament cannot decide that properly in current world of SC2 environment. Maru winning Blizzcon alone wouldn't make him a bonjwa, exactly because we must use same arguments and apply them equally to all.
Lift the lock already!
In regards to 2019 you might have a point, that several foreigners are on par with the world class koreans. For 2018 look at GSL vs the world and Blizzcon, look at the results, the brackets and tell me that the top 10 players in the world had more than one foreigner (Serral).
Serral dominating the foreign scene in 2018 does not even register for a bonjwa discussion, it is his 2019 results that does that. Sadly the reason Serral is dominating "the world" argueably this year is because the level of play in korea has deteriorated. Look at the GSL vs world results in 2019 and compare it to 2018, it is evident foreigners are stronger compared to koreans than in previous years and therefore Serrals domination of the wcs circuit means more.
Yeah. Hardest to quantify is exactly that immeasurable rate of which Serral's 2018 transcended the whole foreign scene, how his performance broke some mental blocks (particularly in Europe), and possibly forging some new (particularly in Korea). These kind of entanglements are hard to measure when they are happening and they usually become more transparent and easier to evaluate more time goes by.
"Little Serral was there in 2011..." - The host about Serral's win in WCS Fall at Montreal (More accurate, longer quote would be appreciated if someone even bother anymore)
On September 09 2019 21:17 Shuffleblade wrote: The problem with the Serral = Bonjwa discussion is that his domination mostly encompasses tournaments from which the rest of the best players in the world are barred. "But you can't blame Serral because koreans aren't allowed in most tournaments", no I am not blaming Serral but its not about apointing blame its about answering the question if Serral has unquestionably dominated the top level of professional starcraft 2 for a long period of time.
No one can do that while dodging most of the highest level of starcraft 2 tournaments, it just isn't possible, Serral not competing in GSL pretty much disqualifies him from the Bonjwa discussion.
On September 09 2019 18:45 Anc13nt wrote: Serral won 7/9. If you exclude WCS Circuit and HSC, he won 2/4 (1/2 among IEM WC and Blizzcon).
That is misleading, removing GSL and super tournaments just because he didn't participate in those tournaments only skew the discussion. A Bonjwa doesn't win the tournaments he competes in, he wins the biggest most competetive tournaments. I'm not saying Serrals wcs wins doesn't matter (which I've said before and changed my mind about) but when we are discussing being bonjwa or not we are entering a whole other discussion.
In 2018 Serral won 2/8 of the most prestigious tournaments and Maru won 3/8. The three remaning champions are Rogue, Stats and Classic.
I have said it before and I will say it again, looking forward to blizzcon and hoping for a protoss buff or zerg nerf coming.
I largely agree with your comment. The fact that Serral doesn't participate in GSL makes it much harder for him.whereas Maru not participating in WCS doesn't hurt him much. But in any case, the fact that top SC2 players don't participate in all the premiers in SC2 makes it pretty hard to compare tournament runs to BW, since it mainly goes against players like Serral..It's basically impossible to dominate the whole scene as a foreigner in the sense of winning enough of the hardest tournaments. Another reason why one shouldn't use bonjwa for SC2 players.
Edit: The other problem is that Maru probably will never be bonjwa either because there will always be the question of what would happen if Serral played in GSL.
The reason i think serral is at bonjwa status is that there are games i watch of his where i think, wow nobody in the world could do anything vs this. He makes other pro players look like complete novices. I don't care that he doesn't play GSL, but it's important to know he does also make those same koreans look awful just like the europeans. The recent GSL vs the world once again proved to me he can make koreans look like novices, hes just that next level up that i think nobody else is on. not even maru. When i think of that i then do think, bonjwa
Serral is not a bonjwa yet. I don't think his circuit premier titles are meaningless, but they aren't worth as much as his Blizzcon and GSL vs the world premier titles. Honestly, HSC is probably worth more than a WCS Circuit win even if liquipedia doesn't. Still Serral's only in his third year of full time play and seems to be ever improving, so I think he'll earn that title in due time.
It's not about if Serral is a bonjwa anymore, he's beyond that now. He's the GOAT of SC2 and it still feels like he's new to the scene. It's absolutely insane, I haven't seen anything like this ever. I didn't watch SC:BW anymore when Flash hit the scene, but it is talked about that JaeDong is a rival of his, right? how can he be so dominant and still have a rival like JaeDong, I think people are so stuck in the past they cannot see what magic is actually happening before our eyes.
Not saying Serral>Flash, but Flash is also above bonjwa status, some of the bonjwas of BW achievement lists are pretty weak, lets be real.
Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic
On September 09 2019 22:49 ejozl wrote: It's not about if Serral is a bonjwa anymore, he's beyond that now. He's the GOAT of SC2 and it still feels like he's new to the scene. It's absolutely insane, I haven't seen anything like this ever. I didn't watch SC:BW anymore when Flash hit the scene, but it is talked about that JaeDong is a rival of his, right? how can he be so dominant and still have a rival like JaeDong, I think people are so stuck in the past they cannot see what magic is actually happening before our eyes.
Not saying Serral>Flash, but Flash is also above bonjwa status, some of the bonjwas of BW achievement lists are pretty weak, lets be real.
On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote: Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic
On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote: Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic
But can we argue about him being GOAT?
We summon you, oh mighty Nakajin! Deliver us thy GOAT survey for thee year 2020
On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote: Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic
But can we argue about him being GOAT?
It's still a little early for that, Serral needs another World Championship, a Code S or a significant amount of lesser Premier tournaments to enter the GOAT discussion; he's very close to top 5 now, in my opinion.
On September 09 2019 22:59 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote: Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic
But can we argue about him being GOAT?
We summon you, oh mighty Nakajin! Deliver us thy GOAT survey for thee year 2020
lol, do it yourself =P
Reynor is actually a worthy rival of Serral, I think that what he is doing is absolutely insane but its not like he doesn't have rivals. Both Stats and Reynor have traded series with him.
On September 09 2019 22:59 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote: Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic
But can we argue about him being GOAT?
We summon you, oh mighty Nakajin! Deliver us thy GOAT survey for thee year 2020
lol, do it yourself =P
Reynor is actually a worthy rival of Serral, I think that what he is doing is absolutely insane but its not like he doesn't have rivals. Both Stats and Reynor have traded series with him.
Serral has rivals in head to head: Stats, Reynor, Innovation, probably Maru(soO and Neeb maybe not anymore). When it comes to achievements, only Maru can come close(in 2018, especially; if we add 2019, not so much).
On September 09 2019 22:59 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote: Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic
But can we argue about him being GOAT?
We summon you, oh mighty Nakajin! Deliver us thy GOAT survey for thee year 2020
lol, do it yourself =P
Reynor is actually a worthy rival of Serral, I think that what he is doing is absolutely insane but its not like he doesn't have rivals. Both Stats and Reynor have traded series with him.
Serral has rivals in head to head: Stats, Reynor, Innovation, probably Maru(soO and Neeb maybe not anymore). When it comes to achievements, only Maru can come close(in 2018, especially; if we add 2019, not so much).
Ops O_O Thanks for the warning Harris1st
Even though I even got a friendly warning :p
Anyway, will be fun to see how the rest of tournaments this year turns out. Just because its been very predictable so far doesn't mean it will stay that way.
On September 09 2019 22:59 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote: Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic
But can we argue about him being GOAT?
We summon you, oh mighty Nakajin! Deliver us thy GOAT survey for thee year 2020
lol, do it yourself =P
Reynor is actually a worthy rival of Serral, I think that what he is doing is absolutely insane but its not like he doesn't have rivals. Both Stats and Reynor have traded series with him.
Serral has rivals in head to head: Stats, Reynor, Innovation, probably Maru(soO and Neeb maybe not anymore). When it comes to achievements, only Maru can come close(in 2018, especially; if we add 2019, not so much).
You're right, not saying bws definition of bonjwa should be the same as SC2 but it feels like some posters are saying Jaedong wasn't a bonjwa because he had a rival and that bonjwa meant that you stood alone at the top. All the while talking about Serral as if he doesn't have any rivals, he does have rivals. Not when it comes to results in 2019 that is true but its not enough to win the most, you are supposed to win and never lose during a certain period of your reign.
Serral is definitely the most dominat player we have ever had, a true genius at the game but if we are going to steal the bonjwas term from bw.... I don't think we can call him bonjwa at this point.
Dangerous road you are travelling there mate Big red banhammer is circling above
On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote: Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic
But can we argue about him being GOAT?
That much I have to reluctantly allow as long as you don't get into personal insults against each other
Also I asked Serral how he feels about his PR placements solely to meme some of you regulars, and obviously, he gave me a polite, generic response (basically 'whatever')
Serral is the best player in the world (partly helped because zerg is pretty strong) and people should admit as much. But he definitely is not close to being the goat, he doesn't have the quality of success for that. This statement is based on WCS being not worth nearly as much as events which allow most of the best players in the world to compete. While the "bonjwa" talk is not allowed because wax is very opinionated about it, i think that argument would make more sense overall.
On September 10 2019 01:14 The_Red_Viper wrote: Serral is the best player in the world (partly helped because zerg is pretty strong) and people should admit as much. But he definitely is not close to being the goat, he doesn't have the quality of success for that. This statement is based on WCS being not worth nearly as much as events which allow most of the best players in the world to compete. While the "bonjwa" talk is not allowed because wax is very opinionated about it, i think that argument would make more sense overall.
Go start a new thread about relegislating its use in SC2! I'll enjoy the devolution into circular bickering and eventual closure, like every other time it's happened :'(
So like any topic serral is part of you mean? It's always the same discussion, always the same "bickering" there as well regardless of any "bonjwa talk". You just don't like that topic, that's all
On September 10 2019 01:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: So like any topic serral is part of you mean? It's always the same discussion, always the same "bickering" there as well regardless of any "bonjwa talk". You just don't like that topic, that's all
The discussion may be similar but Serral keeps winning. His list of achievements, victories against koreans included, keeps increasing over time and his placement on a GOAT list gets higher; thus said, I agree with you: Serral is closer to be a Bonjwa(last words I'll say about that Wax, I apologize, I just had to reply) than he is to be GOAT at the moment.
On September 10 2019 01:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: So like any topic serral is part of you mean? It's always the same discussion, always the same "bickering" there as well regardless of any "bonjwa talk". You just don't like that topic, that's all
The discussion may be similar but Serral keeps winning. His list of achievements, victories against koreans included, keeps increasing over time and his placement on a GOAT list gets higher; thus said, I agree with you: Serral is closer to be a Bonjwa(last words I'll say about that Wax, don't worry, I just had to reply) than he is to be GOAT at the moment.
This was purely based on wax's argument that the topic which shall not be named introduces "bickering" which in the end has to be closed, i think it is fair to say that any serral topic introduces a very similar discussion regardless. That's all!
Obviously i agree that additional achievements help to make an argument for a placing on this imaginary goat list. Another wcs win in particular doesn't seem to help a lot though, at least that is how i see it.
On September 10 2019 01:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: So like any topic serral is part of you mean? It's always the same discussion, always the same "bickering" there as well regardless of any "bonjwa talk". You just don't like that topic, that's all
I find 'bonjwa' talk to be qualitatively different, from years of observing TL.net forum debating in the post-savior years
On September 09 2019 22:59 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote: Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic
But can we argue about him being GOAT?
That much I have to reluctantly allow as long as you don't get into personal insults against each other
Also I asked Serral how he feels about his PR placements solely to meme some of you regulars, and obviously, he gave me a polite, generic response (basically 'whatever')
LMAO!
I can hear it, I can hear it!
Did that "polite and generic" answer just happen to be something along lines like:
On September 09 2019 22:59 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote: Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic
But can we argue about him being GOAT?
We summon you, oh mighty Nakajin! Deliver us thy GOAT survey for thee year 2020
I have heard your command and I am already drawing the bracket. Next survey is gonna be better and bigger than the last, get ready for the round of 1028 match up between Teffel and ActionJesus
The gap this tournament really solidified for me is not the gap between Serral, Reynor and the rest which was already pretty apparent, but the gap between the top 8 and the rest. It's pretty crazy that Drogo, uThermal, Lambo etc couldn't even make the slightest dent in the top 8. I guess Stephano did beat TIME, but that was basically the only upset?
On September 10 2019 03:48 ZigguratOfUr wrote: The gap this tournament really solidified for me is not the gap between Serral, Reynor and the rest which was already pretty apparent, but the gap between the top 8 and the rest. It's pretty crazy that Drogo, uThermal, Lambo etc couldn't even make the slightest dent in the top 8. I guess Stephano did beat TIME, but that was basically the only upset?
On September 09 2019 22:59 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote: Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic
But can we argue about him being GOAT?
That much I have to reluctantly allow as long as you don't get into personal insults against each other
Also I asked Serral how he feels about his PR placements solely to meme some of you regulars, and obviously, he gave me a polite, generic response (basically 'whatever')
I look forward to reading the interview, please send Serral my warmest regards and congratulations for his success.
On September 09 2019 22:59 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote: Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic
But can we argue about him being GOAT?
We summon you, oh mighty Nakajin! Deliver us thy GOAT survey for thee year 2020
I have heard your command and I am already drawing the bracket. Next survey is gonna be better and bigger than the last, get ready for the round of 1028 match up between Teffel and ActionJesus
Respectfully I think once was enough. Also knockout bracket is a suboptimal format for such a ranking.
On September 09 2019 22:59 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote: Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic
But can we argue about him being GOAT?
We summon you, oh mighty Nakajin! Deliver us thy GOAT survey for thee year 2020
I have heard your command and I am already drawing the bracket. Next survey is gonna be better and bigger than the last, get ready for the round of 1028 match up between Teffel and ActionJesus
Respectfully I think once was enough. Also knockout bracket is a suboptimal format for such a ranking.
Lol no worry I'm not doing that again anytime soon
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
On September 09 2019 22:59 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote: Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic
But can we argue about him being GOAT?
We summon you, oh mighty Nakajin! Deliver us thy GOAT survey for thee year 2020
I have heard your command and I am already drawing the bracket. Next survey is gonna be better and bigger than the last, get ready for the round of 1028 match up between Teffel and ActionJesus
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
ByuN is the one with the best ever winrate I think: 71.20% all time with a 73% in LOTV with a match wintate above 80%, thrashing chinese online tournament was the way to go.
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
ByuN is the one with the best ever winrate I think: 71.20% all time with a 73% in LOTV with a match wintate above 80%, thrashing chinese online tournament was the way to go.
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.
How do you get that? Seems to me that all the big career Koreans have offline winrates against Koreans above 60%. Adding to your list: Stats, Maru, Mvp, Taeja, PartinG, and herO are all above 60%.
Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present.
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.
Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present.
It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%.
Maru (recent 6 months period):
Maru during his reign of domination:
Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only:
Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date.
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.
Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present.
It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%.
Maru (recent 6 months period):
Maru during his reign of domination:
Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only:
Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date.
You noticed we were talking career numbers, or you just ignored it on purpose?
Addendum: Oh, I should've included the data below that portion of the screen, which shows the match %, which would favor Serral by an even more massive margin.
Oddly, if you change the search filter to Country: non-Koreans, Serral would still win slightly in match %, but is 6% behind in game % than Maru vs foreigners. My hypothesis is that since the only tournaments where Koreans get to play foreigners are really big ones, with massive prize pools, the motivation to win is significant bigger. Since they don't know how foreigners play, they'd rely more on their skill and use mostly reliable/safe strategies to win rather than take risks, as they might vs each other. Foreigners are more familiar with how Serral plays, and they're all gunning for him, so Serral does have that bit of a "disadvantage" that Koreans don't. However, Serral adapts well to their countermeasures, so he still wins out in match %.
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.
Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present.
It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%.
Maru (recent 6 months period):
Maru during his reign of domination:
Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only:
Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date.
You noticed we were talking career numbers, or you just ignored it on purpose?
The person I was replying to stated what he thought Inno's games % vs Korean IS. Keyword: IS. So, I used the most recent record. If you want, you can move the calendar as far back as you like, and post the percentages that include the beginning of his career. No need to get defensive about it.
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.
Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present.
It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%.
Maru (recent 6 months period):
Maru during his reign of domination:
Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only:
Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date.
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.
Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present.
It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%.
Maru (recent 6 months period):
Maru during his reign of domination:
Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only:
Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date.
You noticed we were talking career numbers, or you just ignored it on purpose?
The person I was replying to stated what he thought Inno's games % vs Korean IS. Keyword: IS. So, I used the most recent record. If you want, you can move the calendar as far back as you like, and post the percentages that include the beginning of his career. No need to get defensive about it.
Go back and read the text you yourself quoted once more.
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.
Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present.
It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%.
Maru (recent 6 months period):
Maru during his reign of domination:
Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only:
Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date.
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.
Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present.
It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%.
Maru (recent 6 months period):
Maru during his reign of domination:
Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only:
Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date.
You noticed we were talking career numbers, or you just ignored it on purpose?
The person I was replying to stated what he thought Inno's games % vs Korean IS. Keyword: IS. So, I used the most recent record. If you want, you can move the calendar as far back as you like, and post the percentages that include the beginning of his career. No need to get defensive about it.
Go back and read the text you yourself quoted once more.
Sorry, I stand corrected. Entering in the calendar date for the beginning of Innovation's career (July 2012), I get 64.69%, and 62.39% vs S. Korea. Still very good, and close to your % stated.
In regards to 2019 you might have a point, that several foreigners are on par with the world class koreans. For 2018 look at GSL vs the world and Blizzcon, look at the results, the brackets and tell me that the top 10 players in the world had more than one foreigner (Serral).
Serral dominating the foreign scene in 2018 does not even register for a bonjwa discussion, it is his 2019 results that does that. Sadly the reason Serral is dominating "the world" argueably this year is because the level of play in korea has deteriorated. Look at the GSL vs world results in 2019 and compare it to 2018, it is evident foreigners are stronger compared to koreans than in previous years and therefore Serrals domination of the wcs circuit means more.
...strange argumentation imho... - smells like korean-biased
"...the level of play in korea has deteriorated..." - why don't you assume, the EU scene or the foreign scene has become immensly better?
usually the alltogether skill level would increase over time and shifting meta, maybe the foreign skill level just increased faster?
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.
Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present.
It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%.
Maru (recent 6 months period):
Maru during his reign of domination:
Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only:
Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date.
We are talking about career win rates.
On September 10 2019 21:20 tigon_ridge wrote:
On September 10 2019 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 10 2019 20:57 tigon_ridge wrote:
On September 10 2019 17:38 sneakyfox wrote:
On September 10 2019 10:10 Anc13nt wrote:
On September 10 2019 08:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 10 2019 07:51 Jeremy Reimer wrote:
On September 09 2019 18:45 Anc13nt wrote:
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.
Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present.
It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%.
Maru (recent 6 months period):
Maru during his reign of domination:
Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only:
Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date.
You noticed we were talking career numbers, or you just ignored it on purpose?
The person I was replying to stated what he thought Inno's games % vs Korean IS. Keyword: IS. So, I used the most recent record. If you want, you can move the calendar as far back as you like, and post the percentages that include the beginning of his career. No need to get defensive about it.
Go back and read the text you yourself quoted once more.
Sorry, I stand corrected. Entering in the calendar date for the beginning of Innovation's career (July 2012), I get 64.69%, and 62.39% vs S. Korea. Still very good, and close to your % stated.
Fair enough.
I don't understand why several of us are getting different results on aligulac though.
In regards to 2019 you might have a point, that several foreigners are on par with the world class koreans. For 2018 look at GSL vs the world and Blizzcon, look at the results, the brackets and tell me that the top 10 players in the world had more than one foreigner (Serral).
Serral dominating the foreign scene in 2018 does not even register for a bonjwa discussion, it is his 2019 results that does that. Sadly the reason Serral is dominating "the world" argueably this year is because the level of play in korea has deteriorated. Look at the GSL vs world results in 2019 and compare it to 2018, it is evident foreigners are stronger compared to koreans than in previous years and therefore Serrals domination of the wcs circuit means more.
...strange argumentation imho... - smells like korean-biased
"...the level of play in korea has deteriorated..." - why don't you assume, the EU scene or the foreign scene has become immensly better?
usually the alltogether skill level would increase over time and shifting meta, maybe the foreign skill level just increased faster?
Serral himself said that they got lucky in this year GSLvTW. So how much is he right?
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.
Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present.
It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%.
Maru (recent 6 months period):
Maru during his reign of domination:
Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only:
Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date.
We are talking about career win rates.
On September 10 2019 21:20 tigon_ridge wrote:
On September 10 2019 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 10 2019 20:57 tigon_ridge wrote:
On September 10 2019 17:38 sneakyfox wrote:
On September 10 2019 10:10 Anc13nt wrote:
On September 10 2019 08:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 10 2019 07:51 Jeremy Reimer wrote: [quote]
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.
Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present.
It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%.
Maru (recent 6 months period):
Maru during his reign of domination:
Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only:
Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date.
You noticed we were talking career numbers, or you just ignored it on purpose?
The person I was replying to stated what he thought Inno's games % vs Korean IS. Keyword: IS. So, I used the most recent record. If you want, you can move the calendar as far back as you like, and post the percentages that include the beginning of his career. No need to get defensive about it.
Go back and read the text you yourself quoted once more.
Sorry, I stand corrected. Entering in the calendar date for the beginning of Innovation's career (July 2012), I get 64.69%, and 62.39% vs S. Korea. Still very good, and close to your % stated.
Fair enough.
I don't understand why several of us are getting different results on aligulac though.
I was posting all offline matches, not just Koreans. That's why my numbers were different. And probably not from the start of WoL which shouldn't affect that much considering I wasn't picking the top WoL players anyway.
That's how I got that insane Inno numbers. And let's be fair - many of the games come from Proleague(that's why Taeja's number of games is so low) (edit> to be fair, the KeSPA giants havem ost of the games from vsKoreans, only minimal numbers from foreign games, unless they're Taeja )
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.
Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present.
It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%.
Maru (recent 6 months period):
Maru during his reign of domination:
Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only:
Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date.
We are talking about career win rates.
On September 10 2019 21:20 tigon_ridge wrote:
On September 10 2019 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 10 2019 20:57 tigon_ridge wrote:
On September 10 2019 17:38 sneakyfox wrote:
On September 10 2019 10:10 Anc13nt wrote:
On September 10 2019 08:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 10 2019 07:51 Jeremy Reimer wrote: [quote]
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.
Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.
If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.
offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)
Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse)
Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.
Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.
BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)
if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.
Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present.
It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%.
Maru (recent 6 months period):
Maru during his reign of domination:
Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only:
Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date.
You noticed we were talking career numbers, or you just ignored it on purpose?
The person I was replying to stated what he thought Inno's games % vs Korean IS. Keyword: IS. So, I used the most recent record. If you want, you can move the calendar as far back as you like, and post the percentages that include the beginning of his career. No need to get defensive about it.
Go back and read the text you yourself quoted once more.
Sorry, I stand corrected. Entering in the calendar date for the beginning of Innovation's career (July 2012), I get 64.69%, and 62.39% vs S. Korea. Still very good, and close to your % stated.
Fair enough.
I don't understand why several of us are getting different results on aligulac though.
Everyone of us can even quote and copy-paste their page (by the site option) they are looking at.
Linking that same page (you're looking at) is another option (by what ever browser). Come on!
If predictive power of the mathematical formula has 1% error, I personally take that site over these boards, no matter how many "qualitative" remarks may appear (they do).
..been watching sc pretty much since the start. Serral IS the best player i think ive seen at this game. Would love to see him do a terran/toss switch and see if he could do the same and just cement legendary status as the best player of Starcraft.
EPT
Serral vs 
), forced to play extra games in group stages without any short cuts, using -1 map handicap while victory condition for him is BO5 while others enjoy BO3 luxury.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/cT3Fimc.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ljUG1vx.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ETeIBjY.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/FzZSy3L.png)
