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It's sad to know keen is going to military service soon too, but great games by him,gg
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I was a fool for doubting Dark. He was clutch today.
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A lot of fun and exciting matches in this group considering it was designed to be the weakest group with one clear favourite. All the series were close and good.
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Yesterday was epic, in terms of the games and the length. Ended at 11:59 Korean time Tasteless loved that.
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Fantasy is playing so well. Was really hoping for him to advance, but alas that last game wasn't meant to be. Hoping that he stays motivated and make it far in the next tournament he enters.
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On August 29 2019 11:09 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 10:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 29 2019 10:37 BisuDagger wrote:On August 29 2019 10:21 Alejandrisha wrote:On August 29 2019 08:24 BisuDagger wrote:
This was a great day of Starcraft and the casters were awesome too.
I am really sad about Fantasy's losses to dark though. It is become really irritating to see Terrans grab massive leads to lose to the late game Zerg death ball. Dark played out of his mind, but it still felt hopefulness for Fantasy once the dream composition hit. I dont usually look forward to patches, but I am not sure the emp buff was enough to make late game enjoyable for viewers rooting for a Terran player.
I wonder if the raven had emp and the ghost had anti armor missiles would be a good exchange of spells.
i think you have to accept the fact that fantasy just isn't that good. as an sc2 pro he is pretty much a t2 terran. and by that i mean he is better than every terran in the world besides like 10 of them xD Keen had the same problem as Fantasy. And many other User and have the same problem against Serral. Playing a perfect game as a Terran player sometimes isn't good enough. It's hard to make sense of it because in most cases Serral really plays brilliantly and makes almost zero mistakes in the late game. But after watching so many TvZs end the same way, after a certain point in the game you just writing the last 20 minutes of the game off as a death animation. I'm not arguing there isn't a way to do it right, but no Terran player, including Maru, has solved this puzzle yet and as a viewer you start to question wether Terran has the tools available to actually solve late game TvZ. EMP - with upgrade to early to tell What we see consistently fail: Nukes - hardly does anything except zone and delay Mass viking - bombed/fungaled/Infested Mass Thor - spend to much time fighting broodlings to hit air Battlefield - NP to kill each other Today: Thor+lib+viking+ghots: Keen's game basically was this and it looked very promising. I am staying hopeful that this build can be reproduced. I'd love to see some discussion around other option. What compositions are out there we haven't seen yet. I don’t think there’s really A solution, purely because theoretical compositions are just way, way too hard to control. It’s already hard to control 3/4 units with differing characteristics without anything ground based being blocked by broodlings. Maru demolished Reynor at WCG with a combo of really heavy libs, sieging to nuke infested Terrans and sending BCs in to the fray on top of it. Haven’t seen it since, it looked interesting for sure. Reynor is in my view relatively bad for his calibre at lategame vT though so it might have been so successful because of that. As for changes I think you could see some improvement with stuff that would be innocuous to other interactions. Thors with a smaller model and space occupied wouldn’t be stuck as badly, Vikings that were slightly faster or accelerated quicker would give Terrans more options IMO What if massive units could crush broodlings in the same manner that they crush forcefields. Thors would still have to take damage to get near broodlords, but it would solve mobility issues without changing the model size.
I think that maybe the real solution is making massive units unable to be neuraled and possibly make massive units so its unable to be viper pulled but that might be a stretch to do both,but motherships getting pulled is pretty dumb, thors can fight broodlords, ghosts can zone infestors, it's all there, but the big engage and losing half your army to mindcontrol is rough.
I actually like vipers much more then infestors as a unit in late game armys because you dint really mass them, I wish infestors got removed in LOTV.
I like the idea of walking over broodlings but I think the pathing issue is what makes broodlords so great it's kind of their whole reason zerg stops some bullshit low tier cheap units, it makes the other player forced into late game but with infestors it's way to strong. You actually can outrage broodlords and shift command the them with the thors while the hellbats clear the broodlings on Amove, the main problem is when you fight, unless you emp every infestor that's is borrowed you lose due to the mind control.
It's actually a really hard job to do it all while controlling a army, I feel like zerg is close to being terrible without infestor's but I'm not sure I just wish that you couldnt neural an entire mech army because you missed a scan or your raven got sniped, investors just punish so much.
I'm not trying to balance whine I am actually at 100percent win ratio against zerg this season since the buff but I just think that for these top players they always seem to die if the zerg has his infestors and broodlords, and I dont think making thors a more Amove unit is the solution, I think it comes down to making the engage a little harder from the zergs engage, maybe nerf the fuck out of infestors but buff the vipers I'm not sure
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 29 2019 15:11 Conut wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 11:09 BisuDagger wrote:On August 29 2019 10:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 29 2019 10:37 BisuDagger wrote:On August 29 2019 10:21 Alejandrisha wrote:On August 29 2019 08:24 BisuDagger wrote:
This was a great day of Starcraft and the casters were awesome too.
I am really sad about Fantasy's losses to dark though. It is become really irritating to see Terrans grab massive leads to lose to the late game Zerg death ball. Dark played out of his mind, but it still felt hopefulness for Fantasy once the dream composition hit. I dont usually look forward to patches, but I am not sure the emp buff was enough to make late game enjoyable for viewers rooting for a Terran player.
I wonder if the raven had emp and the ghost had anti armor missiles would be a good exchange of spells.
i think you have to accept the fact that fantasy just isn't that good. as an sc2 pro he is pretty much a t2 terran. and by that i mean he is better than every terran in the world besides like 10 of them xD Keen had the same problem as Fantasy. And many other User and have the same problem against Serral. Playing a perfect game as a Terran player sometimes isn't good enough. It's hard to make sense of it because in most cases Serral really plays brilliantly and makes almost zero mistakes in the late game. But after watching so many TvZs end the same way, after a certain point in the game you just writing the last 20 minutes of the game off as a death animation. I'm not arguing there isn't a way to do it right, but no Terran player, including Maru, has solved this puzzle yet and as a viewer you start to question wether Terran has the tools available to actually solve late game TvZ. EMP - with upgrade to early to tell What we see consistently fail: Nukes - hardly does anything except zone and delay Mass viking - bombed/fungaled/Infested Mass Thor - spend to much time fighting broodlings to hit air Battlefield - NP to kill each other Today: Thor+lib+viking+ghots: Keen's game basically was this and it looked very promising. I am staying hopeful that this build can be reproduced. I'd love to see some discussion around other option. What compositions are out there we haven't seen yet. I don’t think there’s really A solution, purely because theoretical compositions are just way, way too hard to control. It’s already hard to control 3/4 units with differing characteristics without anything ground based being blocked by broodlings. Maru demolished Reynor at WCG with a combo of really heavy libs, sieging to nuke infested Terrans and sending BCs in to the fray on top of it. Haven’t seen it since, it looked interesting for sure. Reynor is in my view relatively bad for his calibre at lategame vT though so it might have been so successful because of that. As for changes I think you could see some improvement with stuff that would be innocuous to other interactions. Thors with a smaller model and space occupied wouldn’t be stuck as badly, Vikings that were slightly faster or accelerated quicker would give Terrans more options IMO What if massive units could crush broodlings in the same manner that they crush forcefields. Thors would still have to take damage to get near broodlords, but it would solve mobility issues without changing the model size. I think that maybe the real solution is making massive units unable to be neuraled and possibly make massive units so its unable to be viper pulled but that might be a stretch to do both,but motherships getting pulled is pretty dumb, thors can fight broodlords, ghosts can zone infestors, it's all there, but the big engage and losing half your army to mindcontrol is rough. I actually like vipers much more then infestors as a unit in late game armys because you dint really mass them, I wish infestors got removed in LOTV. I like the idea of walking over broodlings but I think the pathing issue is what makes broodlords so great it's kind of their whole reason zerg stops some bullshit low tier cheap units, it makes the other player forced into late game but with infestors it's way to strong. You actually can outrage broodlords and shift command the them with the thors while the hellbats clear the broodlings on Amove, the main problem is when you fight, unless you emp every infestor that's is borrowed you lose due to the mind control. It's actually a really hard job to do it all while controlling a army, I feel like zerg is close to being terrible without infestor's but I'm not sure I just wish that you couldnt neural an entire mech army because you missed a scan or your raven got sniped, investors just punish so much. I'm not trying to balance whine I am actually at 100percent win ratio against zerg this season since the buff but I just think that for these top players they always seem to die if the zerg has his infestors and broodlords, and I dont think making thors a more Amove unit is the solution, I think it comes down to making the engage a little harder from the zergs engage, maybe nerf the fuck out of infestors but buff the vipers I'm not sure
Yeah, no neural nor pull on the massive units. What can go wrong? Oh, I know, air toss 
Edit - BTW if you manually target BL they have bigger range than Thors. I believe it's 11 vs 12, not sure about the numbers. But BL when manually targetted have bigger range than Thors.
Edit 2: I just check the other thread, it's 13 range for BL if you attack a unit instead of a-moving
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On August 29 2019 08:24 BisuDagger wrote:
This was a great day of Starcraft and the casters were awesome too.
I am really sad about Fantasy's losses to dark though. It is become really irritating to see Terrans grab massive leads to lose to the late game Zerg death ball. Dark played out of his mind, but it still felt hopefulness for Fantasy once the dream composition hit. I dont usually look forward to patches, but I am not sure the emp buff was enough to make late game enjoyable for viewers rooting for a Terran player.
I wonder if the raven had emp and the ghost had anti armor missiles would be a good exchange of spells.
To be fair I think the most irritating thing in the Dark - Fanta series was the latter not taking advantage of his (massive) leads; Him losing the 2nd game was entirely his own fault. That said I am wary of BL/fester as well. It's hard not to be.
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BL/Infestor was absolutely ridiculous before the patch. Afterwards, who knows. Dark showed that it's definitely still very strong, but maybe it's beatable now. We saw lots of Ghosts with mech yesterday, maybe Ghost/BC will become a thing?
Just theorycrafting, but BCs get hardcountered by Infestors and Corruptors, both of which Ghosts counter. Throw in a few Medivacs and you can run away from Ling/Bane that counters Ghosts while the BCs go to town. Maybe add some Liberators and Vikings as stopgaps or staying power. As the game goes later and later, the potential burst damage for massed Ghost/BC gets really high.
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I'm very happy for KeeN. He'll probably get stomped in the ro8 but reaching it is great in itself. Tenacity! And hey, Ryung came REALLY far a while back so why not him.
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I support Wombat's idea around spore mobility. Maybe it should just cost something, minerals or gas, to reburrow them. That would go towards countering the economic advantage snowball granted by free Z units over long games. Also, it would make strategies like Fantasy's attempted multipronging more viable.
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Losing KeeN is bad for Code S
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On August 29 2019 15:11 Conut wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 11:09 BisuDagger wrote:On August 29 2019 10:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 29 2019 10:37 BisuDagger wrote:On August 29 2019 10:21 Alejandrisha wrote:On August 29 2019 08:24 BisuDagger wrote:
This was a great day of Starcraft and the casters were awesome too.
I am really sad about Fantasy's losses to dark though. It is become really irritating to see Terrans grab massive leads to lose to the late game Zerg death ball. Dark played out of his mind, but it still felt hopefulness for Fantasy once the dream composition hit. I dont usually look forward to patches, but I am not sure the emp buff was enough to make late game enjoyable for viewers rooting for a Terran player.
I wonder if the raven had emp and the ghost had anti armor missiles would be a good exchange of spells.
i think you have to accept the fact that fantasy just isn't that good. as an sc2 pro he is pretty much a t2 terran. and by that i mean he is better than every terran in the world besides like 10 of them xD Keen had the same problem as Fantasy. And many other User and have the same problem against Serral. Playing a perfect game as a Terran player sometimes isn't good enough. It's hard to make sense of it because in most cases Serral really plays brilliantly and makes almost zero mistakes in the late game. But after watching so many TvZs end the same way, after a certain point in the game you just writing the last 20 minutes of the game off as a death animation. I'm not arguing there isn't a way to do it right, but no Terran player, including Maru, has solved this puzzle yet and as a viewer you start to question wether Terran has the tools available to actually solve late game TvZ. EMP - with upgrade to early to tell What we see consistently fail: Nukes - hardly does anything except zone and delay Mass viking - bombed/fungaled/Infested Mass Thor - spend to much time fighting broodlings to hit air Battlefield - NP to kill each other Today: Thor+lib+viking+ghots: Keen's game basically was this and it looked very promising. I am staying hopeful that this build can be reproduced. I'd love to see some discussion around other option. What compositions are out there we haven't seen yet. I don’t think there’s really A solution, purely because theoretical compositions are just way, way too hard to control. It’s already hard to control 3/4 units with differing characteristics without anything ground based being blocked by broodlings. Maru demolished Reynor at WCG with a combo of really heavy libs, sieging to nuke infested Terrans and sending BCs in to the fray on top of it. Haven’t seen it since, it looked interesting for sure. Reynor is in my view relatively bad for his calibre at lategame vT though so it might have been so successful because of that. As for changes I think you could see some improvement with stuff that would be innocuous to other interactions. Thors with a smaller model and space occupied wouldn’t be stuck as badly, Vikings that were slightly faster or accelerated quicker would give Terrans more options IMO What if massive units could crush broodlings in the same manner that they crush forcefields. Thors would still have to take damage to get near broodlords, but it would solve mobility issues without changing the model size. I'm not trying to balance whine I am actually at 100percent win ratio against zerg this season since the buff but I just think that for these top players they always seem to die if the zerg has his infestors and broodlords, and I dont think making thors a more Amove unit is the solution, I think it comes down to making the engage a little harder from the zergs engage, maybe nerf the fuck out of infestors but buff the vipers I'm not sure
Maybe reduce the range of neural by 1 or even 2 to make the infestor have to take more risks to land a good neural. For example if neural range was at least 3 lower than a raven’s detection range than using a raven to sweep in front of BCs would be feasible and that’s less intense and more sustainable than having to scan every half screen of movement. You could make it up to the Zerg by giving queens +1 range on their anti air attack ; )
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On August 29 2019 08:24 BisuDagger wrote:
I wonder if the raven had emp and the ghost had anti armor missiles would be a good exchange of spells.
The implications of this for TvP would be pretty terrifying considering you generally have a raven way faster than a ghost. Imagine Terran's 2 base pushes on low unit counts and now you EMP their sentries. Not to mention ravens would then be the counter to robo and templar play (though the interaction raven-templar is more favorable for the HT because the raven is an easier target) while ghosts would simply be universally worse.
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Bisutopia19231 Posts
On August 30 2019 04:53 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 08:24 BisuDagger wrote:
I wonder if the raven had emp and the ghost had anti armor missiles would be a good exchange of spells.
The implications of this for TvP would be pretty terrifying considering you generally have a raven way faster than a ghost. Imagine Terran's 2 base pushes on low unit counts and now you EMP their sentries. Not to mention ravens would then be the counter to robo and templar play (though the interaction raven-templar is more favorable for the HT because the raven is an easier target) while ghosts would simply be universally worse.
I think the energy cost would have to be higher or emp would have to be an upgrade on the raven for those reasons. But in late game it would balance out.
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On August 30 2019 05:01 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2019 04:53 Elentos wrote:On August 29 2019 08:24 BisuDagger wrote:
I wonder if the raven had emp and the ghost had anti armor missiles would be a good exchange of spells.
The implications of this for TvP would be pretty terrifying considering you generally have a raven way faster than a ghost. Imagine Terran's 2 base pushes on low unit counts and now you EMP their sentries. Not to mention ravens would then be the counter to robo and templar play (though the interaction raven-templar is more favorable for the HT because the raven is an easier target) while ghosts would simply be universally worse. I think the energy cost would have to be higher or emp would have to be an upgrade on the raven for those reasons. But in late game it would balance out.
I dunno I think that's just pretty cumbersome. It's a tech lab starport unit with high gas cost. To get the amount of ravens you need to have the ability to EMP everything would take a really long time. And as I said just giving the raven that much focus is something I dislike. Every match-up develops (devolves?) into a massive air battle in the late game. I'd rather not put even more focus on the flying spellcaster. I think ghosts are in a good place.
If anything ravens could be toned down because they dominate TvT to the point build variety is impaired by them.
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On August 29 2019 16:28 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 15:11 Conut wrote:On August 29 2019 11:09 BisuDagger wrote:On August 29 2019 10:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 29 2019 10:37 BisuDagger wrote:On August 29 2019 10:21 Alejandrisha wrote:On August 29 2019 08:24 BisuDagger wrote:
This was a great day of Starcraft and the casters were awesome too.
I am really sad about Fantasy's losses to dark though. It is become really irritating to see Terrans grab massive leads to lose to the late game Zerg death ball. Dark played out of his mind, but it still felt hopefulness for Fantasy once the dream composition hit. I dont usually look forward to patches, but I am not sure the emp buff was enough to make late game enjoyable for viewers rooting for a Terran player.
I wonder if the raven had emp and the ghost had anti armor missiles would be a good exchange of spells.
i think you have to accept the fact that fantasy just isn't that good. as an sc2 pro he is pretty much a t2 terran. and by that i mean he is better than every terran in the world besides like 10 of them xD Keen had the same problem as Fantasy. And many other User and have the same problem against Serral. Playing a perfect game as a Terran player sometimes isn't good enough. It's hard to make sense of it because in most cases Serral really plays brilliantly and makes almost zero mistakes in the late game. But after watching so many TvZs end the same way, after a certain point in the game you just writing the last 20 minutes of the game off as a death animation. I'm not arguing there isn't a way to do it right, but no Terran player, including Maru, has solved this puzzle yet and as a viewer you start to question wether Terran has the tools available to actually solve late game TvZ. EMP - with upgrade to early to tell What we see consistently fail: Nukes - hardly does anything except zone and delay Mass viking - bombed/fungaled/Infested Mass Thor - spend to much time fighting broodlings to hit air Battlefield - NP to kill each other Today: Thor+lib+viking+ghots: Keen's game basically was this and it looked very promising. I am staying hopeful that this build can be reproduced. I'd love to see some discussion around other option. What compositions are out there we haven't seen yet. I don’t think there’s really A solution, purely because theoretical compositions are just way, way too hard to control. It’s already hard to control 3/4 units with differing characteristics without anything ground based being blocked by broodlings. Maru demolished Reynor at WCG with a combo of really heavy libs, sieging to nuke infested Terrans and sending BCs in to the fray on top of it. Haven’t seen it since, it looked interesting for sure. Reynor is in my view relatively bad for his calibre at lategame vT though so it might have been so successful because of that. As for changes I think you could see some improvement with stuff that would be innocuous to other interactions. Thors with a smaller model and space occupied wouldn’t be stuck as badly, Vikings that were slightly faster or accelerated quicker would give Terrans more options IMO What if massive units could crush broodlings in the same manner that they crush forcefields. Thors would still have to take damage to get near broodlords, but it would solve mobility issues without changing the model size. I think that maybe the real solution is making massive units unable to be neuraled and possibly make massive units so its unable to be viper pulled but that might be a stretch to do both,but motherships getting pulled is pretty dumb, thors can fight broodlords, ghosts can zone infestors, it's all there, but the big engage and losing half your army to mindcontrol is rough. I actually like vipers much more then infestors as a unit in late game armys because you dint really mass them, I wish infestors got removed in LOTV. I like the idea of walking over broodlings but I think the pathing issue is what makes broodlords so great it's kind of their whole reason zerg stops some bullshit low tier cheap units, it makes the other player forced into late game but with infestors it's way to strong. You actually can outrage broodlords and shift command the them with the thors while the hellbats clear the broodlings on Amove, the main problem is when you fight, unless you emp every infestor that's is borrowed you lose due to the mind control. It's actually a really hard job to do it all while controlling a army, I feel like zerg is close to being terrible without infestor's but I'm not sure I just wish that you couldnt neural an entire mech army because you missed a scan or your raven got sniped, investors just punish so much. I'm not trying to balance whine I am actually at 100percent win ratio against zerg this season since the buff but I just think that for these top players they always seem to die if the zerg has his infestors and broodlords, and I dont think making thors a more Amove unit is the solution, I think it comes down to making the engage a little harder from the zergs engage, maybe nerf the fuck out of infestors but buff the vipers I'm not sure Yeah, no neural nor pull on the massive units. What can go wrong? Oh, I know, air toss Edit - BTW if you manually target BL they have bigger range than Thors. I believe it's 11 vs 12, not sure about the numbers. But BL when manually targetted have bigger range than Thors. Edit 2: I just check the other thread, it's 13 range for BL if you attack a unit instead of a-moving
One or the other should be there but both is kinda insane
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Despite everyone crying about Zerg, I think Fantasy threw by letting Zerg just macro up after that dmg. He has a pretty big kill window between 9.30 and 11 minutes, but instead he sits back and lets Dark go to late game. Pretty stupid.
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On August 29 2019 10:37 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 10:21 Alejandrisha wrote:On August 29 2019 08:24 BisuDagger wrote:
This was a great day of Starcraft and the casters were awesome too.
I am really sad about Fantasy's losses to dark though. It is become really irritating to see Terrans grab massive leads to lose to the late game Zerg death ball. Dark played out of his mind, but it still felt hopefulness for Fantasy once the dream composition hit. I dont usually look forward to patches, but I am not sure the emp buff was enough to make late game enjoyable for viewers rooting for a Terran player.
I wonder if the raven had emp and the ghost had anti armor missiles would be a good exchange of spells.
i think you have to accept the fact that fantasy just isn't that good. as an sc2 pro he is pretty much a t2 terran. and by that i mean he is better than every terran in the world besides like 10 of them xD Keen had the same problem as Fantasy. And many other User and have the same problem against Serral. Playing a perfect game as a Terran player sometimes isn't good enough. It's hard to make sense of it because in most cases Serral really plays brilliantly and makes almost zero mistakes in the late game. But after watching so many TvZs end the same way, after a certain point in the game you just writing the last 20 minutes of the game off as a death animation. I'm not arguing there isn't a way to do it right, but no Terran player, including Maru, has solved this puzzle yet and as a viewer you start to question wether Terran has the tools available to actually solve late game TvZ. EMP - with upgrade to early to tell What we see consistently fail: Nukes - hardly does anything except zone and delay Mass viking - bombed/fungaled/Infested Mass Thor - spend to much time fighting broodlings to hit air Battlefield - NP to kill each other Today: Thor+lib+viking+ghots: Keen's game basically was this and it looked very promising. I am staying hopeful that this build can be reproduced. I'd love to see some discussion around other option. What compositions are out there we haven't seen yet.
I strongly disagree with this.
Top zerg players often lose to Terran players in the lategame.
Including Serral, who lost to Innovation and Gumiho in the late game.
Maru usually wins in the lategame vs Zerg too (see his games vs scarlett in 2019. the WESG one on king's cove scarlett technically won thanks to some weird chinese tournament rule, but maru should have at worst tied. then there was the GSL qualifier one)
Dark lost to Keen in the lategame just now.
Time beat soO in the lategame in GSL vs the World
Heromarine beat elazer's lategame WCS summer
Heromarine vs reynor (i think he did it a couple of times vs reynor, the one i remember was wcs winter though)
special vs reynor in gsl vs the world
these are off the top of my head
Terran lategame is favored over Zerg lategame imo.
It's protoss lategame that is helpless vs Zerg lategame (and tbh protsoss lategame is helpless vs a fleet of BCs too)
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For anybody who didnt watch.. check out soul vs reynor from the wcs fall eu qualifiers. Soul goes up 2 - 0 on Reynor..who is argueably a top 3 zerg in the world (for comparison..soul would be lucky to make the top 10 terran list). He ends up losing the series 3 to 2 but wins a couple of late game scenarios with mass BC liberator ghost. The new emp makes it possible to send 2 cloaked ghosts onto creep...send bcs to a corner base to snipe and then emp 15 infestors walking to defend w those 2 ghosts .port ur bcs onto them and win the game. This happened multiple times in the series. Lets wait and watch this now in Maru and TYs hands b4 we go talking about "not enough" please and thanks.
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EPT
