The WCS Circuit welcomed a new king as Reynor defeated Serral 4-2 in the grand finals of WCS Summer to end the Finnish Phenom's streak of major WCS Circuit championships at five. In lifting the trophy, the seventeen-year-old Italian Zerg avenged his 3-4 loss to Serral at 2018's WCS Montreal—a tournament where he could have won his first major title if he had not erred and allowed Serral to pull off an impossible comeback in game six. It seemed like Reynor would eventually get his due when he defeated Serral 4-3 in the finals of the trimmed-down 2019 WCS Winter: Europe tournament, but Serral's decisive 3-0 sweep of Reynor in the semis of last month's WCS Spring suggested that the Finn still reigned supreme in full-scale WCS Circuit events.
Indeed, the first three-and-a-half games made it look like Serral would easily put the upstart in his place. Having shown composure far beyond his age in the past, Reynor made the uncharacteristic error of forgetting Roach speed in both games one and three, which Serral ruthlessly punished for two easy victories (Reynor managed to take game two after fending off a two-base all-in from Serral). Serral looked like he was well on his way to a 3-1 series lead midway through game four, building a daunting late-game advantage with cunning counter-attacks and Nydus tactics. However, it only ended up setting the table for Reynor to repay Serral's incredible comeback from WCS Montreal with one of his own. With just one thing on his side—a larger 200/200 army due to having his Drones whittled away by Serral—Reynor gathered his forces and took Serral down with a desperation haymaker. "I tried the YOLO move, F2 A-move, and it worked." said a laughing Reynor in his post-finals interview.
The comeback seemed to swing all of the momentum in Reynor's favor, with Serral being the one looking uncharacteristically sloppy afterward. Game five went Reynor's way after Serral forced a disastrous Roach-Ravager vs Roach-Ravager fight into his opponent's awaiting army. Then, Reynor closed out the series in game six, with his handful of mid-game Mutalisks giving him just enough of an advantage to overwhelm Serral with a follow-up Roach-Ravager attack.
With his first WCS Circuit title (two, if including the ambiguously stationed WCS Winter: Europe), Reynor won $20,000 in prize money and a direct seed to the WCS Global Finals for his first place finish ([view WCS standings]). And, if anyone had previous balked at such an inexperienced youngster being dubbed the rival of the most dominant player in WCS Circuit history, then Reynor now seems to have fully earned that designation.
Serral's Streak Broken
For Serral, the loss marked the end of an unprecedented run of success that began in January of 2018 at WCS Leipzig. After defeating ShoWTimE to win his first WCS Circuit title, Serral went on to win four more for a consecutive total of five, blowing past Neeb's previous best of 3-of-4 titles in WCS 2017. Starting in WCS Leipzig 2018 and up until his loss to Reynor, Serral had won thirty-five consecutive matches in offline, combined-region WCS Circuit championships (excluding WCS Winter: Europe) with a total map record of 98-25.
In hindsight, the end of Serral's reign was portended at WCS Montreal 2018, and not just by his close call against Reynor in the finals. Lambo and Scarlett also took Serral to full-length series in the playoffs (Bo5's), and even the North American underdog JonSnow managed to steal a map. Although Protoss and Terran pros seemed resigned to losing against Serral, the top Zergs of the Circuit seemed to have a puncher's chance—something Reynor proved correct at WCS Europe: Winter.
Outside the few minutes after winning the 2018 WCS Global finals, Serral had always been understated and restrained in victory. In defeat, he was very much the same. After scratching his head and offering Reynor a congratulatory handshake, Serral left the stage. His subsequent Tweet suggested he was not especially perturbed: "Not this time, a bit sad about game 4 and 5 which I pucked up but otherwise a fine series."
Reynor's Path
With top Protoss players such as ShoWTimE and Neeb drawn into Serral's side of the bracket, WCS Summer became an opportunity for Reynor to reaffirm his ZvT chops. After taking out MarineLorD and uThermal in the group stage, Reynor took an impressive 3-1 victory over WCS Spring runner-up SpeCial in the quarterfinals. His come-from-behind victory on King's Cove was particularly notable, where he withstood constant pressure from SpeCial before finally assembling a late-game composition that could deal with the Terran's mech army. In the semis, Reynor defeated top EU Terran HeRoMaRinE, making up for an 0-3 loss at HomeStory Cup 19. Oddly enough, the tightest margin of victory for Reynor was a 3-2 against Nerchio in the round-of-sixteen, a point that the acerbic Polish Zerg was quick to point out after the grand finals.
The next offline event on the WCS Circuit will be ASUS ROG 2019 (August 1-3), with Reynor, Serral, and many of the top Circuit players competing alongside a handful of WCS Korea players. After that, GSL vs. The World is set to follow on August 15-18. The final WCS Circuit championship of the year will take place in Montreal during September 6-8 at WCS Fall.
Very impressive performance by Reynor. I just assumed Serral would stomp everyone again but Reynor gets another up on Serral. I was hoping Special would get further but shit happens.
On July 15 2019 12:11 RealityTheGreat wrote: So why Serral all-in?
To add variety and unpredictability I guess, the idea was good.
ZvZ involving Serral are always at least very tense, although nothing is better than Reynor internalizing Alphastar's teachings and winning the game pretending ramps just don't exist.
Congratulations to Reynor. It's good that Serral's streak broke, but I would have liked it be done by a Terran or Protoss and that the finals would have been little more tighter to make it clearer that others are catching up and not just Serral slumping. I hope and kind of expect that we get this top 8 to GSL vs The World. Maybe Elazer is replaced by Lambo or Scarlett.
As I keep saying every WCS might as well just be Reynor and Serral flipping a coin 7 times. At least then we wouldn't waste three days to see the same result. But hey, the same two guys in the WCS finals every time isn't the problem. Let's all nerf Protoss out of the game instead
On July 15 2019 16:11 MockHamill wrote: I do not play Zerg so I am not sure, but to me it looked like Serral played better than Reynor, but lost?
Am I missing something, or is that correct?
Following just my impression, it felt like Reynor was most of time little bit more reactive and concentrating to micro than Serral, while Serral had generally better 'plans' and macro-game. Regardless, Reynor kicked Serral's arse so beautiful it didn't leave much questions or room for speculations who was better this time.
First time for long time I felt there was some kind mental collapse on Serral's side, that then accumulated faster than Serral managed get grip again to his game.
However, if assuming 1000 games series between these two zergs I still consider Serral better when insane volatility of ZvZ is rendered out from results, maybe 400-600 for Serral.
However, Reynor is clearly done a lot of work with studies on Serral's game (probably more than anybody else due his personal experiences and past matches), so it isn't exactly surprise he was the guy to decrypt Serral. Reynor's composure looked much more relaxed than Serral's, even after he noticed his idiot mistakes with roach speed. Without those mistakes it could've been even more clear win for Reynor.
In ZvP and ZvT match Serral is still ahead Reynor.
Furhermore, sometimes I feel Serral GG too easily nowdays in situations that could be recoverable, particularly during mid-end games inwhich he would benefit from his skill. Almost like he would use energy saving tactics too often for avoiding over-lengthy macro games when actively trying go to those kind games would highly likely give better result for him (as we've seen already).
Maybe that wasn't good strategy against Reynor in his mind, but there should never exist reasons to drop games by pre-mature GGs in any BO7 Grand Finals.
This is good! Gives Serral a reason to keep improving and not just sitting pretty on his throne
To the games:
Serral had a bit of an IdrA GG timing that one game. He does that from time to time, but mostly when it's the first game of a series and he doesn't want to fight a lenghty game from a losing position.
Game 4 was crazy, definitely have to rewatch this. Felt like Serral wasn't using his Vipers and Lurkers correctly.
Serral eating more biles in this series than in the whole 2018 is a bit strange too. Seemed a bit tired while Reynor was full in the flow. Really well played by Reynor, congratz on making Blizzcon and winning this clutch series!
I think the suggestion to include Serral in Top 10/20 for the best player all the time is still questionable. Whoever do not bother to play in code s type of tournament for whatever reason, must be excluded from this placing unless all Koreans have chance to play at foreign scene tournament. Serral benefited much by not engaging with a tone of Koreans in the long-span weeks of ro16-ro32. During this span of weeks, his opponents may study to overthrow him out of brackets since they knew the brackets at least a week before just like what happenned to Innovation recently or Maru in the last season of Code S.
When many of Sc2 fans criticize Rogue heavily since he kept losing after he won IEM & Blizzcon, there was a question mark whether he was worth of been placed as one of the best player all the time. The only the title that he miss is Code S. Let say, he won Code S but suddenly he start crumbling again. He looked unbeatable in some instance of time, but looked unimpressed in some other time. Do he still count as the best player of all-the time? Why the similar treatment not imposed to Serral? Serral didn't win the IEM, but Rogue did afterwards.
On July 15 2019 19:08 swarminfestor wrote: I think the suggestion to include Serral in Top 10/20 for the best player all the time is still questionable. Whoever do not bother to play in code s type of tournament for whatever reason, must be excluded from this placing unless all Koreans have chance to play at foreign scene tournament. Serral benefited much by not engaging with a tone of Koreans in the long-span weeks of ro16-ro32. During this span of weeks, his opponents may study to overthrow him out of brackets since they knew the brackets at least a week before just like what happenned to Innovation recently or Maru in the last season of Code S.
When many of Sc2 fans criticize Rogue heavily since he kept losing after he won IEM & Blizzcon, there was a question mark whether he was worth of been placed as one of the best player all the time. The only the title that he miss is Code S. Let say, he won Code S but suddenly he start crumbling again. He looked unbeatable in some instance of time, but looked unimpressed in some other time. Do he still count as the best player of all-the time? Why the similar treatment not imposed to Serral? Serral didn't win the IEM, but Rogue did afterwards.
Serral is way more consistent than Rogue, he translated from winning every tournament to losing finals(which itself is a good result, many great players have more silvers than titles) while hasn't reached another one yet and recently entered a severe slump(advancing to ro16 in Code S probably means he is back, tho).
Everyone is already trying to study Serral in order to beat him, there is no risk he gets unnoticed; thus said, I think most of us want to see him play in Code S and we can just hope he decides to try.
However, excluding Serral from a GOAT list because he didn't play GSL seems arbitrary, he plays WCS Circuit, he is not korean after all; also, not playing a tournament is surely not worse than repeatedly losing relatively early in said tournament(like Rogue did).
On July 15 2019 19:08 swarminfestor wrote: I think the suggestion to include Serral in Top 10/20 for the best player all the time is still questionable. Whoever do not bother to play in code s type of tournament for whatever reason, must be excluded from this placing unless all Koreans have chance to play at foreign scene tournament. Serral benefited much by not engaging with a tone of Koreans in the long-span weeks of ro16-ro32. During this span of weeks, his opponents may study to overthrow him out of brackets since they knew the brackets at least a week before just like what happenned to Innovation recently or Maru in the last season of Code S.
When many of Sc2 fans criticize Rogue heavily since he kept losing after he won IEM & Blizzcon, there was a question mark whether he was worth of been placed as one of the best player all the time. The only the title that he miss is Code S. Let say, he won Code S but suddenly he start crumbling again. He looked unbeatable in some instance of time, but looked unimpressed in some other time. Do he still count as the best player of all-the time? Why the similar treatment not imposed to Serral? Serral didn't win the IEM, but Rogue did afterwards.
I don't think this reasoning has any sense. Maybe it could have before GSL vs the World 2018. After that Serral has been in the radar of every top progamer. If any of them, especially the Koreans, that have historically been extremely good at studying their opponent, has not studied its gameplay (and to be clear i do not think that anyone of the blizzcon 2018 finalists or IEM 2019 and WESG 2019 participant has not studied Serral) that's their fault. The fact is that Serral mantains an insane winrate against top koreans from gls vs the world 2018. Furthermore, Koreans have always been very proud of their supremacy, so it is almost sure that they actively prepare to take him down.
I feel like Serral's lategame was worse than usual in this series. Usually he is really scary when he hits his first max and is great at roach burrow play and multi prong attacks but he wasn't really able to showcase that very much this time. That said, grats to Reynor, he has cemented himself as a very strong player, comparable the level of some top Koreans. I kind of hope the next finals won't be another ZvZ between them but they always make great finals so it wouldn't be so bad either.
Sad for Serral but 2nd place is great too, considering he can reach it this often. Some too early ggs though now, especially the one vs ShoWTimE. Congrats to Reynor for finally taking home a WCS trophy, I'm eager to see him at Global Finals.
King Artur almost had Reynor too, that would've probably meant Heromarine in the grand finals. The skill level at the top seems extremely close, I don't think Reynor and Serral are way above the rest.
Shame about the finals, but other than that a decently interesting tournament
On July 16 2019 00:46 Musicus wrote: King Artur almost had Reynor too, that would've probably meant Heromarine in the grand finals. The skill level at the top seems extremely close, I don't think Reynor and Serral are way above the rest.
On July 16 2019 00:46 Musicus wrote: King Artur almost had Reynor too, that would've probably meant Heromarine in the grand finals. The skill level at the top seems extremely close, I don't think Reynor and Serral are way above the rest.
Zergs must overrule Europe first, only after then they can inject an idea to wider foreign and Korean audiences: Toss must be obliterated. With all costs.
Finally, someday in a dark future people will really pick a winning race.
We all can celebrate the Victory Day, when Protoss race was wiped out, and an era and the phase of the real game that will finally begin.
Xel'naga will balance the struggle, and keep Protoss cemetaries tidy and beautiful.
The reason Reynor is the one who threatens Serral the most is because he's confident against him. The other foreigners are shitting their pants when they play vs Serral and do way more mistakes than usual (looking at you Neeb and Showtime). Reynor doesn't fear him and it shows. skill-wise I don't think the other top foreigners are that much worse than Reynor.
On July 16 2019 03:49 Charoisaur wrote: The reason Reynor is the one who threatens Serral the most is because he's confident against him. The other foreigners are shitting their pants when they play vs Serral and do way more mistakes than usual (looking at you Neeb and Showtime). Reynor doesn't fear him and it shows. skill-wise I don't think the other top foreigners are that much worse than Reynor.
How comes then that Reynor reaches finals that often? He does so by regularly beating the players are basically as skilled as he is his; top european Terran don't fear Reynor and consider him just another good player but facts point towards the opposite direction.
So Neeb is afraid of Serral? He is still ahead in their head to head and was on a 5-0(2-0) streak before yesterday... To threaten Serral you need enough skill to beat him consistently, attitude plays a role for sure but I think it's not pivotal as you are implying.
On July 16 2019 03:49 Charoisaur wrote: The reason Reynor is the one who threatens Serral the most is because he's confident against him. The other foreigners are shitting their pants when they play vs Serral and do way more mistakes than usual (looking at you Neeb and Showtime). Reynor doesn't fear him and it shows. skill-wise I don't think the other top foreigners are that much worse than Reynor.
How comes then that Reynor reaches finals that often? He does so by regularly beating the players are basically as skilled as he is his; top european Terran don't fear Reynor and consider him just another good player but facts point towards the opposite direction.
but he also loses often to other players. HSC 0-3 to Heromarine, WESG lost to Neeb, IEM got eliminated by Creator, WCS spring qualifier lost to uthermal, HSC XVIII lost to Cure. not bad at all, but he doesn't seem to be a step above the other top europeans except for his matches against Serral.
On July 15 2019 17:41 HsDLTitich wrote: Still thinking about the F2 A-move yolo moment in game 4
I still don't understand what went through his mind: "I just lost my hive and third, time to kill him". Forza Italia! :D
Well, at that point, Reynor knew there was no way he could win a macro game any more, because of the various moderate-loss engagements that would happen. Basically, imagine that Reynor and Serrel continue to skirmish in this scenario. Both players lose 40 food of army, back off, and remax. Serrel can remax on good units, hive tech units, etc. Reynor is forced to re-max on whatever units he still has buildings for, while also spending resources to tech back up to Hive if he wants to re-max on good units. There's no route to victory for Reynor there.
Reynor's only chance is a single decisive engagement that he wins by a large amount, fought at Serrel's base, where he can immediately follow it up by taking out multiple hatches and cutting off reinforcements. At this moment, both are at 200 food - Reynor actually has about 30 more army supply since he lost 30 drones and rebuilt them as roaches or something - and this is the only time for the rest of the game that Reynor will be on even footing with Serrel, so he tried to force a decisive engagement, succeeded, knocked out Serrels' hatches and such, and won the game.
On July 16 2019 03:49 Charoisaur wrote: The reason Reynor is the one who threatens Serral the most is because he's confident against him. The other foreigners are shitting their pants when they play vs Serral and do way more mistakes than usual (looking at you Neeb and Showtime). Reynor doesn't fear him and it shows. skill-wise I don't think the other top foreigners are that much worse than Reynor.
How comes then that Reynor reaches finals that often? He does so by regularly beating the players are basically as skilled as he is his; top european Terran don't fear Reynor and consider him just another good player but facts point towards the opposite direction.
but he also loses often to other players. HSC 0-3 to Heromarine, WESG lost to Neeb, IEM got eliminated by Creator, WCS spring qualifier lost to uthermal, HSC XVIII lost to Cure. not bad at all, but he doesn't seem to be a step above the other top europeans except for his matches against Serral.
Reynor is not one unreachable juggernaut the way Serral is, he plays minor tournaments and he loses way more often; I would say Reynor is a primus inter pares, his WCS results are the best if we exclude Serral.
On July 16 2019 03:49 Charoisaur wrote: The reason Reynor is the one who threatens Serral the most is because he's confident against him. The other foreigners are shitting their pants when they play vs Serral and do way more mistakes than usual (looking at you Neeb and Showtime). Reynor doesn't fear him and it shows. skill-wise I don't think the other top foreigners are that much worse than Reynor.
How comes then that Reynor reaches finals that often? He does so by regularly beating the players are basically as skilled as he is his; top european Terran don't fear Reynor and consider him just another good player but facts point towards the opposite direction.
but he also loses often to other players. HSC 0-3 to Heromarine, WESG lost to Neeb, IEM got eliminated by Creator, WCS spring qualifier lost to uthermal, HSC XVIII lost to Cure. not bad at all, but he doesn't seem to be a step above the other top europeans except for his matches against Serral.
Reynor is not one unreachable juggernaut the way Serral is, he plays minor tournaments and he loses way more often; I would say Reynor is a primus inter pares, his WCS results are the best if we exclude Serral.
Neeb won 3/4 WCS 2017 i'd still rank him higher than reynor in wcs.
On July 16 2019 03:49 Charoisaur wrote: The reason Reynor is the one who threatens Serral the most is because he's confident against him. The other foreigners are shitting their pants when they play vs Serral and do way more mistakes than usual (looking at you Neeb and Showtime). Reynor doesn't fear him and it shows. skill-wise I don't think the other top foreigners are that much worse than Reynor.
How comes then that Reynor reaches finals that often? He does so by regularly beating the players are basically as skilled as he is his; top european Terran don't fear Reynor and consider him just another good player but facts point towards the opposite direction.
but he also loses often to other players. HSC 0-3 to Heromarine, WESG lost to Neeb, IEM got eliminated by Creator, WCS spring qualifier lost to uthermal, HSC XVIII lost to Cure. not bad at all, but he doesn't seem to be a step above the other top europeans except for his matches against Serral.
Reynor is not one unreachable juggernaut the way Serral is, he plays minor tournaments and he loses way more often; I would say Reynor is a primus inter pares, his WCS results are the best if we exclude Serral.
Neeb won 3/4 WCS 2017 i'd still rank him higher than reynor in wcs.
I meant only since Reynor started playing WCS. He could not even play in 2017!
On July 15 2019 17:41 HsDLTitich wrote: Still thinking about the F2 A-move yolo moment in game 4
I still don't understand what went through his mind: "I just lost my hive and third, time to kill him". Forza Italia! :D
Well, at that point, Reynor knew there was no way he could win a macro game any more, because of the various moderate-loss engagements that would happen. Basically, imagine that Reynor and Serrel continue to skirmish in this scenario. Both players lose 40 food of army, back off, and remax. Serrel can remax on good units, hive tech units, etc. Reynor is forced to re-max on whatever units he still has buildings for, while also spending resources to tech back up to Hive if he wants to re-max on good units. There's no route to victory for Reynor there.
Reynor's only chance is a single decisive engagement that he wins by a large amount, fought at Serrel's base, where he can immediately follow it up by taking out multiple hatches and cutting off reinforcements. At this moment, both are at 200 food - Reynor actually has about 30 more army supply since he lost 30 drones and rebuilt them as roaches or something - and this is the only time for the rest of the game that Reynor will be on even footing with Serrel, so he tried to force a decisive engagement, succeeded, knocked out Serrels' hatches and such, and won the game.
Totally. I'm admiring the mental fortitude of being in that situation and going for it, instead of giving up on that game (as it happened to Serral vs Showtime for example).
Does anyone else stop to think about how EU friendly the Circuit path is this year?
Now don’t misunderstand me here EU has proven that they have the most top tier players outside Korea... but they also could go to most of these events.
Circuit points this year are all being earned in the EU region with the exception of Montreal: Katowice, Kiev x2 and throw in a surprise stop in Finland with two months’ notice. It’s nearly impossible for non-EU players that don’t have deep pocketed sponsors to play in these tournaments, so while I think the best players are in fact winning, the format feels very rigged for them. 👀
On July 15 2019 17:41 HsDLTitich wrote: Still thinking about the F2 A-move yolo moment in game 4
I still don't understand what went through his mind: "I just lost my hive and third, time to kill him". Forza Italia! :D
Well, at that point, Reynor knew there was no way he could win a macro game any more, because of the various moderate-loss engagements that would happen. Basically, imagine that Reynor and Serrel continue to skirmish in this scenario. Both players lose 40 food of army, back off, and remax. Serrel can remax on good units, hive tech units, etc. Reynor is forced to re-max on whatever units he still has buildings for, while also spending resources to tech back up to Hive if he wants to re-max on good units. There's no route to victory for Reynor there.
Reynor's only chance is a single decisive engagement that he wins by a large amount, fought at Serrel's base, where he can immediately follow it up by taking out multiple hatches and cutting off reinforcements. At this moment, both are at 200 food - Reynor actually has about 30 more army supply since he lost 30 drones and rebuilt them as roaches or something - and this is the only time for the rest of the game that Reynor will be on even footing with Serrel, so he tried to force a decisive engagement, succeeded, knocked out Serrels' hatches and such, and won the game.
Totally. I'm admiring the mental fortitude of being in that situation and going for it, instead of giving up on that game (as it happened to Serral vs Showtime for example).
Why would he give up though? He had bigger army and some remnants of economy. It was enough to do a 1.5 of a push. This is the classic issue of a person who harasses but doesn't kill. If you do it when there's no bank - that's great. if your enemy has a bank you risk he fills the missing workers by units and at that point you're facing an army that's bigger than yours. Your only way to win then is to defend perfectly. I'm quite surprised that so many people were surprised, this is IMO very common for Protoss players in PvT who play defensively. When they go - fuck this, f2, victory awaits. It's similarish to "oh, you just killed my 2 bases and lost an army for that, how about I destroy you instead of rebuilding my bases?"
that game 4.. such a strange twist never thought serral was even capable of losing a game like that first trophy ceremony that made me smile since innovation smelling his 2nd place flowers. serral great sportsman, reynor so likable.
On July 15 2019 17:41 HsDLTitich wrote: Still thinking about the F2 A-move yolo moment in game 4
I still don't understand what went through his mind: "I just lost my hive and third, time to kill him". Forza Italia! :D
Well, at that point, Reynor knew there was no way he could win a macro game any more, because of the various moderate-loss engagements that would happen. Basically, imagine that Reynor and Serrel continue to skirmish in this scenario. Both players lose 40 food of army, back off, and remax. Serrel can remax on good units, hive tech units, etc. Reynor is forced to re-max on whatever units he still has buildings for, while also spending resources to tech back up to Hive if he wants to re-max on good units. There's no route to victory for Reynor there.
Reynor's only chance is a single decisive engagement that he wins by a large amount, fought at Serrel's base, where he can immediately follow it up by taking out multiple hatches and cutting off reinforcements. At this moment, both are at 200 food - Reynor actually has about 30 more army supply since he lost 30 drones and rebuilt them as roaches or something - and this is the only time for the rest of the game that Reynor will be on even footing with Serrel, so he tried to force a decisive engagement, succeeded, knocked out Serrels' hatches and such, and won the game.
Totally. I'm admiring the mental fortitude of being in that situation and going for it, instead of giving up on that game (as it happened to Serral vs Showtime for example).
Why would he give up though? He had bigger army and some remnants of economy. It was enough to do a 1.5 of a push. This is the classic issue of a person who harasses but doesn't kill. If you do it when there's no bank - that's great. if your enemy has a bank you risk he fills the missing workers by units and at that point you're facing an army that's bigger than yours. Your only way to win then is to defend perfectly. I'm quite surprised that so many people were surprised, this is IMO very common for Protoss players in PvT who play defensively. When they go - fuck this, f2, victory awaits. It's similarish to "oh, you just killed my 2 bases and lost an army for that, how about I destroy you instead of rebuilding my bases?"
Why would Serral give up on game 1 vs Showtime? He still did.
On July 15 2019 17:41 HsDLTitich wrote: Still thinking about the F2 A-move yolo moment in game 4
I still don't understand what went through his mind: "I just lost my hive and third, time to kill him". Forza Italia! :D
Well, at that point, Reynor knew there was no way he could win a macro game any more, because of the various moderate-loss engagements that would happen. Basically, imagine that Reynor and Serrel continue to skirmish in this scenario. Both players lose 40 food of army, back off, and remax. Serrel can remax on good units, hive tech units, etc. Reynor is forced to re-max on whatever units he still has buildings for, while also spending resources to tech back up to Hive if he wants to re-max on good units. There's no route to victory for Reynor there.
Reynor's only chance is a single decisive engagement that he wins by a large amount, fought at Serrel's base, where he can immediately follow it up by taking out multiple hatches and cutting off reinforcements. At this moment, both are at 200 food - Reynor actually has about 30 more army supply since he lost 30 drones and rebuilt them as roaches or something - and this is the only time for the rest of the game that Reynor will be on even footing with Serrel, so he tried to force a decisive engagement, succeeded, knocked out Serrels' hatches and such, and won the game.
Totally. I'm admiring the mental fortitude of being in that situation and going for it, instead of giving up on that game (as it happened to Serral vs Showtime for example).
Why would he give up though? He had bigger army and some remnants of economy. It was enough to do a 1.5 of a push. This is the classic issue of a person who harasses but doesn't kill. If you do it when there's no bank - that's great. if your enemy has a bank you risk he fills the missing workers by units and at that point you're facing an army that's bigger than yours. Your only way to win then is to defend perfectly. I'm quite surprised that so many people were surprised, this is IMO very common for Protoss players in PvT who play defensively. When they go - fuck this, f2, victory awaits. It's similarish to "oh, you just killed my 2 bases and lost an army for that, how about I destroy you instead of rebuilding my bases?"
Why would Serral give up on game 1 vs Showtime? He still did.
Maybe he was sure he would win anyway
The viewer numbers are a bit disappointing. Sure it's summer and a lot of people have better things to do (what the hell is even better than watching Starcraft all day??!!?? ) Still, the stops last year are even or above. I thought overall numbers would go up/ be higher this year
On July 16 2019 03:02 UnLarva wrote: Zergs must overrule Europe first, only after then they can inject an idea to wider foreign and Korean audiences: Toss must be obliterated. With all costs.
Finally, someday in a dark future people will really pick a winning race.
We all can celebrate the Victory Day, when Protoss race was wiped out, and an era and the phase of the real game that will finally begin.
Xel'naga will balance the struggle, and keep Protoss cemetaries tidy and beautiful.
4th race requested.
Zergs don't need to overrule Europe for Toss to be wiped from the game. The Blizzard balance team are managing that just fine on their own
On July 16 2019 03:02 UnLarva wrote: Zergs must overrule Europe first, only after then they can inject an idea to wider foreign and Korean audiences: Toss must be obliterated. With all costs.
Finally, someday in a dark future people will really pick a winning race.
We all can celebrate the Victory Day, when Protoss race was wiped out, and an era and the phase of the real game that will finally begin.
Xel'naga will balance the struggle, and keep Protoss cemetaries tidy and beautiful.
4th race requested.
Zergs don't need to overrule Europe for Toss to be wiped from the game. The Blizzard balance team are managing that just fine on their own
And how do you propose to fix Korea then? Where Protoss is fine... hmm, I wonder.
On July 15 2019 17:41 HsDLTitich wrote: Still thinking about the F2 A-move yolo moment in game 4
I still don't understand what went through his mind: "I just lost my hive and third, time to kill him". Forza Italia! :D
Well, at that point, Reynor knew there was no way he could win a macro game any more, because of the various moderate-loss engagements that would happen. Basically, imagine that Reynor and Serrel continue to skirmish in this scenario. Both players lose 40 food of army, back off, and remax. Serrel can remax on good units, hive tech units, etc. Reynor is forced to re-max on whatever units he still has buildings for, while also spending resources to tech back up to Hive if he wants to re-max on good units. There's no route to victory for Reynor there.
Reynor's only chance is a single decisive engagement that he wins by a large amount, fought at Serrel's base, where he can immediately follow it up by taking out multiple hatches and cutting off reinforcements. At this moment, both are at 200 food - Reynor actually has about 30 more army supply since he lost 30 drones and rebuilt them as roaches or something - and this is the only time for the rest of the game that Reynor will be on even footing with Serrel, so he tried to force a decisive engagement, succeeded, knocked out Serrels' hatches and such, and won the game.
Totally. I'm admiring the mental fortitude of being in that situation and going for it, instead of giving up on that game (as it happened to Serral vs Showtime for example).
Why would he give up though? He had bigger army and some remnants of economy. It was enough to do a 1.5 of a push. This is the classic issue of a person who harasses but doesn't kill. If you do it when there's no bank - that's great. if your enemy has a bank you risk he fills the missing workers by units and at that point you're facing an army that's bigger than yours. Your only way to win then is to defend perfectly. I'm quite surprised that so many people were surprised, this is IMO very common for Protoss players in PvT who play defensively. When they go - fuck this, f2, victory awaits. It's similarish to "oh, you just killed my 2 bases and lost an army for that, how about I destroy you instead of rebuilding my bases?"
God....I think im going to agree Deacon on something.....
But yeah, I didnt understand the "Wow, he decides to attack !!11"- commentary at all. Even few minutes before that I said to myself, that if Reynor decides attack now he is prolly going to win it. He was already up in army supply and his army also looked more scary and bigger than Serrals. In addition when Serral decided to harass, his army at home was even smaller than that. Serral should have made 10 spines and added that supply to his army as soon as he realized that Reynor isnt defending his harass at all. There wasnt any other logical decision than to attack in Reynors case; His eco was pretty much destroyed, he managed to make more army from lost drones.
Otherwise it was a nice tournament. Serral looked bit "tired" and even bored, which was bit concerning. He seems to get more frustrated easily and the GG against Showtime actually looked more like "Well Im gonna beat you anyways"-type of call, which definetly isnt good. The whole year has been bit of that same too. It seems that the last hunger to win has been absent from his play, and that affects his whole gameplay. The only time he looked as sharp as last year was the WCS Spring, where the payback for Raynor- theme seemed to bring back the Old Night King, we all have been used to seeing. It almost seems that he needs some extra motivation to bring the best out of him. Dont get me wrong, his play is still very, very good, but it seems to be missing a bit. And a bit can be a huge factor when facing the best of the best.
Like others here said, Reynors advantage over others is mostly the fact that he isnt afraid to go toe to toe vs Serral and the little race advantage that he is zerg which gives him bit more surprise advantages compared to other races. Serral cant just go on autopilot-mode against him anymore which in addition tends to make even his game more erratic. Have to hope Serral gets his mojo back in the end of the year, where he confronts the Koreans again. Hopefully they can bring the motivation up to his gold standards again.
On July 16 2019 03:49 Charoisaur wrote: The reason Reynor is the one who threatens Serral the most is because he's confident against him. The other foreigners are shitting their pants when they play vs Serral and do way more mistakes than usual (looking at you Neeb and Showtime). Reynor doesn't fear him and it shows. skill-wise I don't think the other top foreigners are that much worse than Reynor.
How comes then that Reynor reaches finals that often? He does so by regularly beating the players are basically as skilled as he is his; top european Terran don't fear Reynor and consider him just another good player but facts point towards the opposite direction.
but he also loses often to other players. HSC 0-3 to Heromarine, WESG lost to Neeb, IEM got eliminated by Creator, WCS spring qualifier lost to uthermal, HSC XVIII lost to Cure. not bad at all, but he doesn't seem to be a step above the other top europeans except for his matches against Serral.
Reynor is not one unreachable juggernaut the way Serral is, he plays minor tournaments and he loses way more often; I would say Reynor is a primus inter pares, his WCS results are the best if we exclude Serral.
So Reynor is Eli Manning when he faces Serral (Tom Brady) in the Super Bowl.
On July 15 2019 17:41 HsDLTitich wrote: Still thinking about the F2 A-move yolo moment in game 4
I still don't understand what went through his mind: "I just lost my hive and third, time to kill him". Forza Italia! :D
Well, at that point, Reynor knew there was no way he could win a macro game any more, because of the various moderate-loss engagements that would happen. Basically, imagine that Reynor and Serrel continue to skirmish in this scenario. Both players lose 40 food of army, back off, and remax. Serrel can remax on good units, hive tech units, etc. Reynor is forced to re-max on whatever units he still has buildings for, while also spending resources to tech back up to Hive if he wants to re-max on good units. There's no route to victory for Reynor there.
Reynor's only chance is a single decisive engagement that he wins by a large amount, fought at Serrel's base, where he can immediately follow it up by taking out multiple hatches and cutting off reinforcements. At this moment, both are at 200 food - Reynor actually has about 30 more army supply since he lost 30 drones and rebuilt them as roaches or something - and this is the only time for the rest of the game that Reynor will be on even footing with Serrel, so he tried to force a decisive engagement, succeeded, knocked out Serrels' hatches and such, and won the game.
Totally. I'm admiring the mental fortitude of being in that situation and going for it, instead of giving up on that game (as it happened to Serral vs Showtime for example).
Why would he give up though? He had bigger army and some remnants of economy. It was enough to do a 1.5 of a push. This is the classic issue of a person who harasses but doesn't kill. If you do it when there's no bank - that's great. if your enemy has a bank you risk he fills the missing workers by units and at that point you're facing an army that's bigger than yours. Your only way to win then is to defend perfectly. I'm quite surprised that so many people were surprised, this is IMO very common for Protoss players in PvT who play defensively. When they go - fuck this, f2, victory awaits. It's similarish to "oh, you just killed my 2 bases and lost an army for that, how about I destroy you instead of rebuilding my bases?"
God....I think im going to agree Deacon on something.....
But yeah, I didnt understand the "Wow, he decides to attack !!11"- commentary at all. Even few minutes before that I said to myself, that if Reynor decides attack now he is prolly going to win it. He was already up in army supply and his army also looked more scary and bigger than Serrals. In addition when Serral decided to harass, his army at home was even smaller than that. Serral should have made 10 spines and added that supply to his army as soon as he realized that Reynor isnt defending his harass at all. There wasnt any other logical decision than to attack in Reynors case; His eco was pretty much destroyed, he managed to make more army from lost drones.
Otherwise it was a nice tournament. Serral looked bit "tired" and even bored, which was bit concerning. He seems to get more frustrated easily and the GG against Showtime actually looked more like "Well Im gonna beat you anyways"-type of call, which definetly isnt good. The whole year has been bit of that same too. It seems that the last hunger to win has been absent from his play, and that affects his whole gameplay. The only time he looked as sharp as last year was the WCS Spring, where the payback for Raynor- theme seemed to bring back the Old Night King, we all have been used to seeing. It almost seems that he needs some extra motivation to bring the best out of him. Dont get me wrong, his play is still very, very good, but it seems to be missing a bit. And a bit can be a huge factor when facing the best of the best.
Like others here said, Reynors advantage over others is mostly the fact that he isnt afraid to go toe to toe vs Serral and the little race advantage that he is zerg which gives him bit more surprise advantages compared to other races. Serral cant just go on autopilot-mode against him anymore which in addition tends to make even his game more erratic. Have to hope Serral gets his mojo back in the end of the year, where he confronts the Koreans again. Hopefully they can bring the motivation up to his gold standards again.
I think it was a great decision from him to not remake drones and just fill up the supply with army units but yeah, the decision to attack at the end was the only logical decision in his position.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/qnXgUpm.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/XzXhjLH.png)
