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4 Posts
Update
The StarCraft II balance team has announced that the Oracle nerf/bug-fix will be temporarily rolled back.
Yesterday we released a patch that fixed a long-standing bug involving beam weapons. Though we believe this bug should eventually be addressed, we agree with the feedback that the change was sudden, especially with the upcoming IEM and WCS qualifiers. As a result, we’re going to revert this change today and reintroduce it at a later date.
The 4.8.1 patch for StarCraft II has been released, fixing a number of bugs while also affecting competitive balance. The patch notes are as follows (Blizzard post):
EDITOR- Doodad limit has been increased to 100,000.
- Added new objects in preparation for the next Team Liquid Map Contest.
BUG FIXES
Co-op Missions
- Zeratul
- Fixed an issue that caused Shieldguard’s Reflection Shield to prevent Hybrids from spawning on Part and Parcel.
- Units can now path between the Artifact Reserve and adjacent structures.
- Fixed an issue that caused Reflection Shield to cause Propagator clones to be friendly.
- The Robotics Bay for Fenix and Alarak will no longer use the default model.
Versus- Fixed an issue that prevented the fast warp-in visual effect from displaying when placing a Pylon.
- Fixed an issue that caused box-selecting a single Probe collecting gas to select two Probes.
- The Nexus will once again display an animation when it is constructing a Probe.
- Fixed an issue that caused units with beam attacks to deal more damage than intended.
- It is no longer possible for Ravens to cast Interference Matrix on a Disruptor’s Purification Nova.
- Automaton LE: The Tarsonis Bridge doodad will now display creep properly.
- Port Aleksander LE: Adjusted the terrain at the natural expansion to prevent a two-Pylon-and-Photon Cannon wall-in.
The Oracle has been significantly affected by the change (Void Rays and Sentries to a lesser degree), significantly slowing the pace at which it kills groups of low HP units. Reddit user nice__username provided a side-by-side comparison of Oracle firepower.
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Just call it a nerf Blizzard, please don't be dishonest.
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So what's the difference exactly ? Time between two attacks ?
also for ealsy games PvT and PvZ
defending Oracle with 4 marines
being able to early attack vs oracle openings as zergs
Would have loved to see if the queen defense vs 2 oracle makes a huge difference
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Well it is a step in the right direction but I think a Tempest nerf would be a higher priority.
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yeaaaaaaaaaah......... not really sure how this gets changed without anyone over there thinking it would have 0 impact D:
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Wow this affects sentries too? This is definitely impactful.
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Well guess that marks the end of SG opening in PVZ, I see it's time to return to my robo/twilight into dying to mass lings opening.
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Securing a third is going to be interesting in pvz.
However the oracle is a bit too punishing on untended mineral lines I think. We'll see how it goes.
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On January 11 2019 18:42 HolydaKing wrote:
Wow this affects sentries too? This is definitely impactful.
Sentries, void rays, carriers, and obviously oracles too. Not sure if there are any others
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This is a move in the right direction; a move toward balance, for sure.
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On January 11 2019 19:09 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2019 18:42 HolydaKing wrote:
Wow this affects sentries too? This is definitely impactful. Sentries, void rays, carriers, and obviously oracles too. Not sure if there are any others
How can it affect Carriers? Carriers have no beam attack?
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On January 11 2019 19:51 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2019 19:09 Durnuu wrote:On January 11 2019 18:42 HolydaKing wrote:
Wow this affects sentries too? This is definitely impactful. Sentries, void rays, carriers, and obviously oracles too. Not sure if there are any others How can it affect Carriers? Carriers have no beam attack?
Interceptors do.
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now they need need to nerf every other workers killers ( mines, banes drops and so on) but we all know they won't nerf anything exept protoss
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Bring back Oracles and Adepts two-shotting Marines already!!!
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doodads increased to 100k.
what does that mean for computers? increased demands to have 60fps?
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4713 Posts
Doodads are the small embellishments which can be added to maps for aesthetic reasons, like columns, trees, arches etc.
What the change means is that, up till now you had a much smaller cap on doodads. After this change you can put up to 100k on your map.
I don't think performance should be impacted unless a map maker really goes out of his way to add a lot of doodads, and even then I'm not sure.
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On January 11 2019 20:04 Psychobabas wrote:
Is the vid broken?
It doesn't load for me at least (chrome on ubuntu)
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Very cool comparison video, that's quite a big nerf to oracles.
But the 'bugged' version looks way cooler. New oracle pilot seems to have brain lag in his targeting.
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I have always hated units like oracle, that is, a unit that if you are not prepared (Hello Illidan) outright wins you the game. But as balance goes, I don't think this will change much, not in tvp at least. Currently the greatest offender is tempest.
I would really like they rework tempest into something else, it is not exiting unit, even with its all new powers since last patch.
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How long has the "issue" with Oracle existed? How big is the DPS change?
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i actually dont mind the change on the Oracle, but it significantly nerfs airtoss in general also!
its the same problem since WoL: toss is not flexible enough throuout a single game. the really big units are hard to get and are countered way too easy. this wouldnt be that big of a problem if gateway units were strong by any means other than pocketstrats or "overminerals-dump".
Colossi: yeah i just mass some anti air as soon as i spot them. after they are killed, the protoss ground army is way too weak.
Disruptor: i just run away with stim, or on creep.
Templar: move way too slow to guard them properly with your army if you pressure the enemy. Energy dependent.
Carrier: way too expensive, considering you need a critical mass, to even be able to hold your ground against mass Hydra/rines. terran and zerg both have the possibility to "Flash"-produce flying anto-air specialists, as soon as they get aware of carrier.
These Things didnt change for 9 (?) years now :D
So we will see protoss using all-in timings 90% till this games dies, because as soon as the enemy scouts your "special" tech, it is countered way too easy. (imho)
(inb4: i write this as a zerg main)
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On January 11 2019 18:48 yht9657 wrote:
Well guess that marks the end of SG opening in PVZ, I see it's time to return to my robo/twilight into dying to mass lings opening.
Always good to have a plan!
I don’t think this is going to be that big of a change, but rather a slight nudge.
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Cool, aesthetics and mecanics polished.. Maybe it s a double nerf for oracle so let s see if it s not too much for oracle..
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On January 11 2019 22:12 ScarPe wrote:
i actually dont mind the change on the Oracle, but it significantly nerfs airtoss in general also!
its the same problem since WoL: toss is not flexible enough throuout a single game. the really big units are hard to get and are countered way too easy. this wouldnt be that big of a problem if gateway units were strong by any means other than pocketstrats or "overminerals-dump".
Colossi: yeah i just mass some anti air as soon as i spot them. after they are killed, the protoss ground army is way too weak.
Disruptor: i just run away with stim, or on creep.
Templar: move way too slow to guard them properly with your army if you pressure the enemy. Energy dependent.
Carrier: way too expensive, considering you need a critical mass, to even be able to hold your ground against mass Hydra/rines. terran and zerg both have the possibility to "Flash"-produce flying anto-air specialists, as soon as they get aware of carrier.
These Things didnt change for 9 (?) years now :D
So we will see protoss using all-in timings 90% till this games dies, because as soon as the enemy scouts your "special" tech, it is countered way too easy. (imho)
(inb4: i write this as a zerg main)
Sure you do bro. A literal entire post protoss whine followed by (but i play zerg doe). Protoss been UP for 9 years u heard it here first.
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The issue is PvZ balance was severely impacted by this.
Oracles are the backbone of not dying to early Ling all-ins, and are instrumental in being able to safely take a third base. Sentry and voids being nerfed is absolute crap as well, but Toss is going to be limited to mostly 2 base all-ins in PvZ until this is revisited. Stargate opener is pretty crap now, I hope they fix this before WCS.
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Kinda sad that protoss needs the oracle to be dumb in able to survive and play pvz, the current iteration looks way more in line of what the unit should do harass wise.
It affecting the matchup blizzard will have to buff the cooldown though to get the bug's behavior on average.
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For those of you who don't know, they DIDN'T FIX the actual bug. They were trying to fix recently discovered bug that allowed you to do extra tick of damage with beam unit (e.g. oracle) if you re-target with different targeting type (On practice it allowed you to break through shield batteries like in this video demonstration https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/a77eud/shield_batteries_suck/). INSTEAD, they ruined the beam attack mechanic, that was working in a CONSISTENT manner, AS INTENDED by the original game designers since the inception for almost 9 years. I guess present team that works on SC2 has just found out that beam units attack in a different manner and thought it is the root of the problem, but instead all they needed was a fix of a re-targeting bug, not to mess with the beam attacks!!
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To all the mech terrans acting dismissive of this and saying it's a good change, this change would be akin to Blizzard going "Yeah we realized we were calculating the diameter of liberation zones on liberators wrong so we fixed the bug" and suddenly liberation zone only covers one or two mineral patches, while at the same time pretending it isn't a balance change. This hurts oracles quite a bit for worker harrass (which isn't as huge of a deal because they only work these days since most people know how to defend them), but from a defensive perspective, it's huge in PvZ and will have a substantial impact on the matchup.
I've seen zerg players respond by saying "just get a few sentries to forcefield or an extra oracle" but what they don't understand is that this third base harass is built into their builds so they can still hit with a hydra/ling/bane or roach/ravager timing at the same time, while protoss will be having to hold those builds off with delayed tech or a delayed economy due to having to spend extra gas to get extra units to secure a safe third.
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United Kingdom20316 Posts
On January 11 2019 21:10 Destructicon wrote:
Doodads are the small embellishments which can be added to maps for aesthetic reasons, like columns, trees, arches etc.
What the change means is that, up till now you had a much smaller cap on doodads. After this change you can put up to 100k on your map.
I don't think performance should be impacted unless a map maker really goes out of his way to add a lot of doodads, and even then I'm not sure.
Doodads do significantly affect performance, larger and more busy maps are more demanding. It's easy to make maps that run way worse than other maps and an increased cap will only make that easier
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oracle damage is still too high!
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Don't forget that this change also impacts the sentry and void ray.
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Well just a nerf but no buff somewhere else? Well this sucks.
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On January 12 2019 03:09 swissman777 wrote:
Well just a nerf but no buff somewhere else? Well this sucks.
Last patch, zerg got queen nerf, creep nerf, hydra nerf. With no compensation.
Oh wait, hydras and lings unburrow faster now..
There is a reason every damn matchup versus zerg air units are super oppressive.
Zerg badly needs a new unit that can attack air from ground at hatchery.
This is stupid that every game zerg is FORCED to play defensive with mass queens because its the only way to defend air and they got nerfed hard.
This means we can almost not put any pressure for first 6minutes of the game, leaving other races to be able to freely tech WHILE getting lots of economy, since they barely need any units, just a wall.
Even in ZvZ now mass mutas are SO oppressive and OP. Yet mutas almost do nothing against terran or protoss.
In ZvP, because mostly of how good archons are against mutas and lings, you can pretty much never go spire even if they dontt go stargate. Because if you do opponent can just kill you or keep you on super low economy.
In ZvT, with new BC build, you cant do netin exept mass queens and mass drones, else you will die to 2 bcs or fall incredibly behind. If you do any kind of roach pressure and fail to do incredibly dmg, you die. Because if you go for a early roach attack, you will have not enough defense to defend against 2 bcs, or not enough drones too even afford enough defense.
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accidentally double posted... it wont let me delete im very sorry.
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On January 11 2019 22:12 ScarPe wrote:
i actually dont mind the change on the Oracle, but it significantly nerfs airtoss in general also!
its the same problem since WoL: toss is not flexible enough throuout a single game. the really big units are hard to get and are countered way too easy. this wouldnt be that big of a problem if gateway units were strong by any means other than pocketstrats or "overminerals-dump".
Colossi: yeah i just mass some anti air as soon as i spot them. after they are killed, the protoss ground army is way too weak.
Disruptor: i just run away with stim, or on creep.
Templar: move way too slow to guard them properly with your army if you pressure the enemy. Energy dependent.
Carrier: way too expensive, considering you need a critical mass, to even be able to hold your ground against mass Hydra/rines. terran and zerg both have the possibility to "Flash"-produce flying anto-air specialists, as soon as they get aware of carrier.
These Things didnt change for 9 (?) years now :D
So we will see protoss using all-in timings 90% till this games dies, because as soon as the enemy scouts your "special" tech, it is countered way too easy. (imho)
(inb4: i write this as a zerg main)
As a Protoss main I heavily disagree with all of your points:
Colossi: Once the collossi are dead the Protoss army still destroys everything because the opponent had to invest so much into units that are useless against the ground army.
Disruptor: Yeah you run away - and then what? the cooldown gets just reset, you didn't gain anything.
Templar: No comment needed. Best unit in the game by far
Carrier: are you serious? massing Marines/Hydras against Carriers is a safe way to lose the game as Carriers murder them
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REVERTED 
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"This just in! Oracles have been functioning improperly this whole time and we were totally not balancing the game around their old dps."
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The discussion should stay open as they will "reintroduce it at a later date."
I wonder if they were trying to fix the oracle and voidray micro trick which if performed correctly would increase the damage. If performed incorrectly it could actually reduce damage or stop the attack. (This trick was basically a-moving and then right clicking on a specific unit or structure at a specific beat pattern with the goal of increasing damage output.) I think little tricks like this which increase the skill gap is a fun and innovative part of the game, similar to many aspects of Brood War play. This feels similar to when they changed the phoenix to attack while moving based on their interpretation of the community feedback and they totally dropped the ball on that one.
Late game PvZ is already looking pretty grim after the carrier nerf and if the oracles cannot properly defend a third, it seems P is going to revert to the days of 2-base all-ins as a standard PvZ game, which makes for an uninteresting e-sport to spectate and even less fun to play.
I would like to hear the thoughts of experienced players on this topic though.
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On January 11 2019 21:10 Destructicon wrote:
Doodads are the small embellishments which can be added to maps for aesthetic reasons, like columns, trees, arches etc.
What the change means is that, up till now you had a much smaller cap on doodads. After this change you can put up to 100k on your map.
I don't think performance should be impacted unless a map maker really goes out of his way to add a lot of doodads, and even then I'm not sure.
Doodads can have a significant impact on performance, but it depends very much on which doodads are being used. You could destroy performance by stacking a small number of very computationally expensive doodads in an area.
All that being said I don't think this makes much of a difference for melee maps which typically don't have relatively all that many doodads (a few thousands maybe). This is probably a bigger change for arcade stuff.
And the oracle nerf is huge, and unfortunately feels like yet another nerf for protoss that is better for zerg than terran (whereas all the Protoss buffs are better against terran than zerg).
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On January 12 2019 05:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2019 21:10 Destructicon wrote:
Doodads are the small embellishments which can be added to maps for aesthetic reasons, like columns, trees, arches etc.
What the change means is that, up till now you had a much smaller cap on doodads. After this change you can put up to 100k on your map.
I don't think performance should be impacted unless a map maker really goes out of his way to add a lot of doodads, and even then I'm not sure. Doodads can have a significant impact on performance, but it depends very much on which doodads are being used. You could destroy performance by stacking a small number of very computationally expensive doodads in an area. All that being said I don't think this makes much of a difference for melee maps which typically don't have relatively all that many doodads (a few thousands maybe). This is probably a bigger change for arcade stuff.
I imagine this is related to how some ladder maps can cause people with weaker computers to have framerate issues. For example, when I run a game on Stasis on my laptop, it averages about 10-15 FPS slower than on a less flashy looking map.
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Go to reddit guys, IT WAS A BUG, and not inteded to work the way it did. The problem is that in units that usea beams the last hit is free so if your target the terrain with them the beam will automatically assign damage to the next unit righ after destroying the first one, making the last hit and first hit of the next unit almost at the same time. This phenomenon does not happen with manually targeted units. And to add, did someone really complained about Dark Templar?, for real?.
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This may seem out of line with recent updates but is everyone ignoring the fact the BattleCruiser warp jump to "Unrevealled/seen" places on the map needs to be nerfed..? I mean its a standard item with unit, not even a upgrade like Yamoto Cannon and it's is way to OP.
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Wasn't the game balanced around this bug and shouldn't they complansate this with buffing damage/speed accordingly?
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Man, bummer. I was really hoping to gain some easy wins with mass ling floods. I feel like the bug is why mass oracles have been op against mass hydras for years.
Protoss would need another compensation, or would need to learn new builds.
I wish the game would be centered around ground units skirmishes more tho, in the zerg matchups at least its too air focused for T and P. Would be nice if players would trade units somewhat evenly in the early/mid game... like in broodwar 
Early bcs or banshes, early drops, early oracles and phoenixes. Its getting really annoying... now even ZvZ is almost always fast mutas.
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Jesus i keep double posting meaning to edit a post and quoting instead, idk why we cant delete our own posts.. sorry i give up ill stop posting im just polluting this forum at this point.
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Canada8989 Posts
On January 12 2019 09:10 Snakestyle11 wrote:
Jesus i keep double posting meaning to edit a post and quoting instead, idk why we cant delete our own posts.. sorry i give up ill stop posting im just polluting this forum at this point.
Wow, that double post. I hope you really feel bad about what you've done, you're lucky you didn't get insta ban.
+ Show Spoiler +Seriously tho it's all good, no one care. welcome to TL  And yes the "quote" and "edit" button are too close but I heard the TL staff are gonna fix it as soon as they finish the 2016 best games list
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Can someone explain to me why this is a "bug"?
Does the current attack mechanic of the Oracle contradict the advertised DPS or something?
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On January 12 2019 10:41 col_jung wrote:
Can someone explain to me why this is a "bug"?
Does the current attack mechanic of the Oracle contradict the advertised DPS or something?
The beam attacks ( oracles, sentries, void rays) currently ignore the attack cooldown on the first attack after they switch target ( i think). Which means in fights where they often switch target, they gain tremendus dps.
This is also why on paper hydras destroy oracles and void rays but in mass sometimes its completely one sided on the side of beam units ( many famous pvz offline mass oracle vs hydras had everyone confused)
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On January 12 2019 10:41 col_jung wrote:
Can someone explain to me why this is a "bug"?
Does the current attack mechanic of the Oracle contradict the advertised DPS or something?
Yes, Oracles have significantly higher than expected DPS against groups of units, especially lower health units like workers and lings.
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This nerf should be re applied after the upcoming tournament, but it should be compensated with both a Stalker buff and a Tempest nerf to make it less broken in TvT. Oracles are critical to Protoss securing bases and some form of map control against Zerg, so this heavy of a nerf (even if it is technically a bug fix) is going to really make securing a third a nightmare for Protoss. As a Zerg player, I'd say that in general, while Protoss air is almost unbeatable in high supply. the ground army feels incredibly weak.
I think this isbecause the Stalker more or less is useless and hilariously hard countered by mid game unit compositions like Roach/Hydra or MMM. I see a Protoss going for Stalkers early game and I already feel ahead, lings deal with them even with blink and Hydralisks of course murder them so badly. The Zealot is fine, the Sentry could also stand to probably be buffed up a bit but we'll stick with the Stalker.
It's probably time to just do an across the board nerf on Protoss air unit damage, but in return, I'd really appreciate it if Blizzard could make Protoss ground armies great again. The mass air thing is just so lame and it's just a testament to how sloppily the racial balance has been handled from the get go. I mean God what are we on, 2 or 3 Oracle redesigns, 2 or 3 Tempest redesigns, 3 or 4 Disruptor redesigns? I stand firm in my belief that Warp Gate had no place in the game to begin with, and that it's removal (although it's never EVER going to happen clearly if it hasn't happened now) or at least make it a mid game upgrade would make Protoss ground units far easier to balance.
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On January 11 2019 21:10 Destructicon wrote:
Doodads are the small embellishments which can be added to maps for aesthetic reasons, like columns, trees, arches etc.
What the change means is that, up till now you had a much smaller cap on doodads. After this change you can put up to 100k on your map.
I don't think performance should be impacted unless a map maker really goes out of his way to add a lot of doodads, and even then I'm not sure.
How many could you place before that?
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On January 12 2019 11:36 Snakestyle11 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2019 10:41 col_jung wrote:
Can someone explain to me why this is a "bug"?
Does the current attack mechanic of the Oracle contradict the advertised DPS or something? The beam attacks ( oracles, sentries, void rays) currently ignore the attack cooldown on the first attack after they switch target ( i think). Which means in fights where they often switch target, they gain tremendus dps. This is also why on paper hydras destroy oracles and void rays but in mass sometimes its completely one sided on the side of beam units ( many famous pvz offline mass oracle vs hydras had everyone confused)
Why did it have to take 3 pages for someone to actually explain the bug?
It's a shame that TL doesn't actively try to write about these things, which are as important as player storylines.
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On January 12 2019 17:16 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2019 11:36 Snakestyle11 wrote:On January 12 2019 10:41 col_jung wrote:
Can someone explain to me why this is a "bug"?
Does the current attack mechanic of the Oracle contradict the advertised DPS or something? The beam attacks ( oracles, sentries, void rays) currently ignore the attack cooldown on the first attack after they switch target ( i think). Which means in fights where they often switch target, they gain tremendus dps. This is also why on paper hydras destroy oracles and void rays but in mass sometimes its completely one sided on the side of beam units ( many famous pvz offline mass oracle vs hydras had everyone confused) Why did it have to take 3 pages for someone to actually explain the bug? It's a shame that TL doesn't actively try to write about these things, which are as important as player storylines.
There was a popular video explaining it a few weeks back.
Honestly I can't believe people are defending it. It gives the oracle a free attack when switching targets. It completely removes the attack delay between shots after killing a unit. That's not "Oh the unit was balanced around it", that's "The oracle has been a in a state of contention since it's release, and we've finally figured out *why*"
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On January 12 2019 20:37 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2019 17:16 opisska wrote:On January 12 2019 11:36 Snakestyle11 wrote:On January 12 2019 10:41 col_jung wrote:
Can someone explain to me why this is a "bug"?
Does the current attack mechanic of the Oracle contradict the advertised DPS or something? The beam attacks ( oracles, sentries, void rays) currently ignore the attack cooldown on the first attack after they switch target ( i think). Which means in fights where they often switch target, they gain tremendus dps. This is also why on paper hydras destroy oracles and void rays but in mass sometimes its completely one sided on the side of beam units ( many famous pvz offline mass oracle vs hydras had everyone confused) Why did it have to take 3 pages for someone to actually explain the bug? It's a shame that TL doesn't actively try to write about these things, which are as important as player storylines. There was a popular video explaining it a few weeks back. Honestly I can't believe people are defending it. It gives the oracle a free attack when switching targets. It completely removes the attack delay between shots after killing a unit. That's not "Oh the unit was balanced around it", that's "The oracle has been a in a state of contention since it's release, and we've finally figured out *why*"
No that is absolutely "it was balanced around it". The game isn't (only) balanced around the actual unit numbers in a vacuum, it is balanced around the actual unit performances seen in the games. Even if it means that the theoretical analysis of oracle vs X would have been off, the actual games we had played in the meantime were considered fine in relation to the oracle.
Now i would totally prefer an oracle which doesn't kill an entire worker line in seconds when there is nothign to defend it, but that's not the game sc2 is and has to be with current unit interactions and matchup blueprints.
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On January 12 2019 20:37 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2019 17:16 opisska wrote:On January 12 2019 11:36 Snakestyle11 wrote:On January 12 2019 10:41 col_jung wrote:
Can someone explain to me why this is a "bug"?
Does the current attack mechanic of the Oracle contradict the advertised DPS or something? The beam attacks ( oracles, sentries, void rays) currently ignore the attack cooldown on the first attack after they switch target ( i think). Which means in fights where they often switch target, they gain tremendus dps. This is also why on paper hydras destroy oracles and void rays but in mass sometimes its completely one sided on the side of beam units ( many famous pvz offline mass oracle vs hydras had everyone confused) Why did it have to take 3 pages for someone to actually explain the bug? It's a shame that TL doesn't actively try to write about these things, which are as important as player storylines. There was a popular video explaining it a few weeks back. Honestly I can't believe people are defending it. It gives the oracle a free attack when switching targets. It completely removes the attack delay between shots after killing a unit. That's not "Oh the unit was balanced around it", that's "The oracle has been a in a state of contention since it's release, and we've finally figured out *why*"
Except it actually was balanced around it because units are balanced based on how they perform in tournament settings. Who knows if the dps nerf that made Marines and SCVs take 3 shots to kill instead of 2 would have been necessary if the Oracle had not been bugged? Also, I figured the Starcraft community of all communities would understand bugs being part of balance, considering Brood War. I mean, I guess they should scrub that game clean of those game-changing bugs based on your logic. The game hasn't been balanced around those bugs, all of those units have just been in contention for years now. Now, you wouldn't disagree with this statement and contradict yourself, would you?
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Everyone here is talking about "Bug", but is it really?
Sure, the actual DPS dealt by units with beam attacks is a bit bigger depending on the HP of the target than the theoretical value calculated from the formula DPS = Damage / Cooldown. But these units don't become suddenly OP, because they were balanced on their actual performances in the game.
There is no any erratic behavior in the beam weapon mechanic (the case where you break through shield batteries is another separate bug not directly related to beam weapons) and if you look again at the video demonstration in the first post, doesn't old oracle weapon feel more natural in the sense that it actualy simulates constant beam, rather than new one? Don't you think original developers conceived it this way?
And lastly, let's take a look at the definition of "bug": an error in a computer program or system (according to Oxford dictionary). Thus, to know for sure we have to ask the guys who originaly worked on SC2 9 years ago whether it is "bug" or a feature of the beam weapon, because present team working on the game already discredited itself several times by being clueless about what actually is going on in the game.
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On January 13 2019 01:30 TheWildShooter wrote:
Everyone here is talking about "Bug", but is it really?
Yes because getting a free shot is an unintended consequence of the way beam weapons are programmed. There is no delay between shots on beam attacks when a beam kills a target which is not how attacks are meant to operate. Blizzard also listed it as a bug fix in the patch notes when they originally fixed it. It is a bug. Now, I think the real discussion is whether or not this bug makes the game better. Bugs can improve a product and I think that should be the determining factor in whether Blizzard should remove it.
Personally, I like the Oracle and I enjoy the bug. I am biased since I play Protoss, but the Oracle did look like a clunky, bad unit in those gifs for the short time the bug was fixed. The affect this has on PvZ balance is important because the Oracle is commonly used to help defend against ling floods, whether that be at the natural or at a constructing third base. If the bug is fixed, buffs will more than likely be necessary.
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On January 12 2019 15:55 jpg06051992 wrote:
This nerf should be re applied after the upcoming tournament, but it should be compensated with both a Stalker buff and a Tempest nerf to make it less broken in TvT. Oracles are critical to Protoss securing bases and some form of map control against Zerg, so this heavy of a nerf (even if it is technically a bug fix) is going to really make securing a third a nightmare for Protoss. As a Zerg player, I'd say that in general, while Protoss air is almost unbeatable in high supply. the ground army feels incredibly weak.
I think this isbecause the Stalker more or less is useless and hilariously hard countered by mid game unit compositions like Roach/Hydra or MMM. I see a Protoss going for Stalkers early game and I already feel ahead, lings deal with them even with blink and Hydralisks of course murder them so badly. The Zealot is fine, the Sentry could also stand to probably be buffed up a bit but we'll stick with the Stalker.
It's probably time to just do an across the board nerf on Protoss air unit damage, but in return, I'd really appreciate it if Blizzard could make Protoss ground armies great again. The mass air thing is just so lame and it's just a testament to how sloppily the racial balance has been handled from the get go. I mean God what are we on, 2 or 3 Oracle redesigns, 2 or 3 Tempest redesigns, 3 or 4 Disruptor redesigns? I stand firm in my belief that Warp Gate had no place in the game to begin with, and that it's removal (although it's never EVER going to happen clearly if it hasn't happened now) or at least make it a mid game upgrade would make Protoss ground units far easier to balance.
Buffing stalker means making mass blink stalkers great again and this is really a terrible idea to have an all rounded unit who dominates the field, 2015 pvz was cancer and made a lot of players leave the game.
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8751 Posts
On January 12 2019 08:45 KappaKingPrime wrote:
Wasn't the game balanced around this bug and shouldn't they complansate this with buffing damage/speed accordingly?
Yeah, I think they should make some attempt at compensation. I don't understand why they choose not to when it's clearly a significant balance issue. My first draft would be to increase attack speed so that it's slightly lower than it effectively was against low health units and slightly higher than it effectively was against high health units. It'd still be a nerf against low health units, which is what the oracle primarily attacks, but it wouldn't be as big of a nerf and at least there'd be some compensation against high health targets.
As for whether it's a bug, it's a bug if Blizzard says it is. They could have intended beam attacks to behave this way. It seems strange for them to come out 8.5 years after the game came out and say this was never intended but I guess it's possible they never noticed.
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On January 12 2019 15:55 jpg06051992 wrote:
This nerf should be re applied after the upcoming tournament, but it should be compensated with both a Stalker buff and a Tempest nerf to make it less broken in TvT. Oracles are critical to Protoss securing bases and some form of map control against Zerg, so this heavy of a nerf (even if it is technically a bug fix) is going to really make securing a third a nightmare for Protoss. As a Zerg player, I'd say that in general, while Protoss air is almost unbeatable in high supply. the ground army feels incredibly weak.
I think this isbecause the Stalker more or less is useless and hilariously hard countered by mid game unit compositions like Roach/Hydra or MMM. I see a Protoss going for Stalkers early game and I already feel ahead, lings deal with them even with blink and Hydralisks of course murder them so badly. The Zealot is fine, the Sentry could also stand to probably be buffed up a bit but we'll stick with the Stalker.
It's probably time to just do an across the board nerf on Protoss air unit damage, but in return, I'd really appreciate it if Blizzard could make Protoss ground armies great again. The mass air thing is just so lame and it's just a testament to how sloppily the racial balance has been handled from the get go. I mean God what are we on, 2 or 3 Oracle redesigns, 2 or 3 Tempest redesigns, 3 or 4 Disruptor redesigns? I stand firm in my belief that Warp Gate had no place in the game to begin with, and that it's removal (although it's never EVER going to happen clearly if it hasn't happened now) or at least make it a mid game upgrade would make Protoss ground units far easier to balance.
The issue with buffing the stalker is that if buffed more, it starts to rape terran in the early game too much. But then if it doesn't rape terran it sucks elsewhere .
Something no one has proposed is another lategame upgrade that could make the stalker more viable. Blizzard is quick to try out new upgrades for terran and zerg (raven, widow mine, medivac, lurker, ultralisk), I would be curious as to how useful a late game stalker upgrade would be. They already have played with some ideas in co-op.
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Just leave the oracle as it is. It doesnt really matter if its a bug or an intended feature that keeps the balance. Every balance change (to oracle or other units that interact with oracle or esle) that took place after the HoTs release was done according to oracle's actual in-game performance (bugged or not). It was in the game for so long that became a part of it (like TONS of similar stuff in BW).
You can't deny that just for the sake of "it wasn't inteneded by the developers". BW wasnt intended by blizzard to become an esport legend. While warhound was actually intended to be a part of the game. Let's bring it back!
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