EPTNow, honestly everything is a blur. However, I will say that the speed increase has in my opinion has aided on the growth spurt in foreigners to improve, as mechanically a lot of them were not as crisp and efficient as their Korean counterparts, which is and has been a good thing.
Is The Game Too Fast? - Page 2
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DSK
England1110 Posts
Now, honestly everything is a blur. However, I will say that the speed increase has in my opinion has aided on the growth spurt in foreigners to improve, as mechanically a lot of them were not as crisp and efficient as their Korean counterparts, which is and has been a good thing. | ||
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jeputera
30 Posts
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On October 10 2018 23:38 jeputera wrote: There was a great TL post when they changed the starting working count about how the build diversity decreased with 12 workers. I couldn't find it, but its a great read if someone can link. Point being, i think that in some way the game plays faster because they are few opening moves. We know everything that happens in the first 7 minutes of any PvZ right now, and i think that makes the game a lot less enjoyable. As the possibilities for countering what your opponent is doing have decreased in the early game, the early game becomes streamlined and repetitive. You probably mean this article | ||
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Hannibaal
41 Posts
And I forgot, macromechanic (mules, injects, chrono) are also part of the problem, they trigger the economy and take players to the late game too early, and that with so many design flaws is a problem, the late game of SC2 is the worst of this game, deathball against deathball, zergs with vision of more than half of the map.... is stupid, trash. | ||
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jeputera
30 Posts
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SCHWARZENEGGER
206 Posts
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BlackLilium
Poland426 Posts
On October 11 2018 00:19 Hannibaal wrote: It is, but it needs to be very fast, SC2 offers too many facilities to the player, I mean the automining, multiple building selection, the ease of using spells, a move units, armies that can be put into a single control group, F2 key, etc. , etc. If you want a more leisurely game, without so much Terrible Damage and with longer battles and with more micro battles, it would be necessary to eliminate the automining and maybe also the MBS, that will not happen at this point, it would be like taking out a new game, but It's sad, that's what Blizzard should have done in 2010. And I forgot, macromechanic (mules, injects, chrono) are also part of the problem, they trigger the economy and take players to the late game too early, and that with so many design flaws is a problem, the late game of SC2 is the worst of this game, deathball against deathball, zergs with vision of more than half of the map.... is stupid, trash. I strongly disagree with this! A game should be about battling your opponent, movement, tactics and not about battling a clunky interface! Is there really no way to slow down the ramping up of the game without making the game interface harder to use? Reduce starting worker count? Reduce mining speed? Maybe introduce the, now probably forgotten, idea of decreasing mining efficiency in saturated bases? Maybe give units overall more HP? Reduce overall their movement speed? | ||
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blunderfulguy
United States1415 Posts
But, I imagine trying to do that and keep the game balanced in any way would be a nightmarish gauntlet to go through even for a team of designers/developers and might not yield any results worth that effort. For now I'll only seriously ask for Auto Turret to be removed once and for all, that'd be good enough for me. | ||
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Haukinger
Germany131 Posts
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RandomOnlyTheHumanLf
58 Posts
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fluidrone
France1478 Posts
On October 10 2018 20:21 SCHRECKEN111 wrote: Dude, i`m 39 (probably one of the oldest sc2 player  ) and I manage without a problem with the current speed. I find the game more exciting now than it was in the time of Hots. If I can have 160 average apm in my age you can reach this level also - and it allows me to play platin league - even if I can play 5-6 matches a week because of the work. So cheer up and practice 44 <3 and again, i like that speed, just think i'd like the slow version too  edit: just in case that was addressed to me somehow  | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
I wish we could somehow extend the midgame a bit because ultra late game tends to result in big boring air deathballs in all matchups right now. One thought I had is what if expansions cost 100 more minerals for evrey race, this might slow the game down in that players would have a harder time reaching full 2 base saturation and third bases would come slower. But we still don't have the mostly useless wait time in hots and wol. It might encourage more tech heavy openings. But maybe such a change would just tip the game to far to one base builds. And we would get wol 2.0. Honestly although I do have some gripes about the effects of 12 worker start I think it's overall good for the game since waiting 4-5 minutes pointlessly in most of my games was always a sore point for me. | ||
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blanca12
3 Posts
User was banned for this post. | ||
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Rodya
546 Posts
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
On October 10 2018 12:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Blizzard should revert the clock change so it goes back to display Blizzard time. If it displayed 16 minutes rather than 11 minutes there would be a lot less complaining.  On October 11 2018 10:01 blanca12 wrote: Blizzard should revert the clock change so it goes back to display Blizzard time. If it displayed 16 minutes rather than 11 minutes there would be a lot less complaining. Hmmmm... Bot that copies posts or unobservant user who coincidentally used the exact same wording... All their posts are copies | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On October 10 2018 12:41 geokilla wrote: Case in point, Rogue and aLive are playing right now in the Ballistix Brawl. At 11 minutes into the game, we have Rogue on 6 bases with complete map control, covering 2/3 to 3/4 of the map in creep, and already on Hive tech building out Broodlords and Ultralisks. Found nothing wrong. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
the reason why they are able to abuse and dominate games against lesser players is because they see wide holes in base defense, meanwhile you should have more units to threaten with. pretty much their mechanical skill and knowhow (macro) and their readiness to pounce on holes and positioning equates to a really lopsided game which in turn forces you to play a particular way with your skillset. the creativity you're describing in hots midgame still exists, but it requires more of you in LotV because you have more income to spend and money do things with your units. you are required to expand and the game is centered around taking and holding 3 bases, then onto the transition to higher tech with a fresh 4th base. this phase of the game takes at least 7 minutes which in the past used to take more than 11, or it never occurred due to circumstances like having to attack or defend and not worrying about mining out for the vast majority of the game. i understand that with less experiences or with more stubborn players that the smallest harass can detract heavily from what they need to do throughout the game. the oracle for example seems like a terrible unit because it does so much damage for such little commitment. it just seems annoying; in some ways it is like a form of cheese. yet if you watch someone better handle the same controls, they will take little to no damage from that same unit---because they are ready and they understand the timing of it. in this example, that would be around 3:30. there is counter play to it, and it's rather easy. it would prevent what would be an easy loss to being unprepared, or being overly prepared. one of those things is scouting. would you rather lose an overlord (100 minerals) to scout whether they start stargate or not, or to lose 3 drones in opportunity cost (+225 minerals) automatically because you don't want to learn the timing of using that scouting overlord? or because you accept that it's simply something you can't control? same with terran, potentially lose 50/50 in the reaper as you control and milk use out of it (while doing everything back at home), or see exactly the starting tech of the protoss or if there are missing pylons that could otherwise hide it? the way you play now may seem stale and set in stone, but it is pretty negligent to say it was any better in any other version of the game, including in SCBW. there are invariables to the early game for those versions that you're simply not being honest about. i'm talking about the way lower level players tend to play. if you're the type that doesn't cheese, the early game goes the exact same way every game. i say that being someone who did this over the course of thousands of games, feeling safe to do so. 2-rax with stim opening, for example, every single game. sometimes it outright killed because the guy had less stuff than you and they have no reprieve. that is not an additional option the game is missing. that responsibility of doing game-ending damage is now shifted into later build order timings or multiple unit harassment (all while macroing the necessary amount of units to end the game with). the way the game was being played for the most part was simply a robot check, and going through the motions. that's not a dynamic early game. that was a quo in the game where your scouting worker could see everything it needed to see, basically for free. the risk of dying to a game-ending unit without having played at least 3m of the game was very low. the same exists now with the above examples in scouting, except they are still optional so long as you respect the early game options from the other player (proxies included). a lot of the situations described in this thread simply shouldn't happen in a real game with other people. either there is a huge skill disparity (pro and complete amateur, high master to diamond) that allows it to happen, or a lack of knowhow. teching straight to broodlord and ultras without taking any damage to slow it down? what? maxing at 9-11m without once again slowing each other down or taking engagements? this simply doesn't happen unless both players decide to NR10 or some shit; both players are happy with just letting the other player sit and mutually do what they want. in short, it's the playstyle that they chose to have, not what they try to expand with having more than one set of units in a control group, scouting, and abusing one another. i think this is why most people prefer to watch than to play. and while the OP did initially start with the idea that the speed of the game has to do with pacing and losing early game portions of being slow, it does end up having to do with a player's speed and adeptness to do everything they need to do. going through a game not touching anyone, not doing meaningful harass or doing sharp builds is like going years throughout adulthood never touching another person emotionally and physically, then settling on the first person you share those experiences with and complaining when they were not the one. | ||
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Less_Du_Et
United States18 Posts
Take for example the good old 2 rax - In WOL and HOTS; a failed 2 rax meant you were behind (as it should be). The aggressor took a risk, and it did not pay off (either due to good defence or poor execution of the aggression). In LOTV; a failed 2 rax, as Maru and a few others have shown time and time again, can transition into a macro game. The aggressor in this case is NOT punished of the failed aggression. This is because the window to punish is smaller in LOTV. In some cases, less than 30 seconds or a minute - barely enough time to get across the map. Having to go from doing an all-in off 6 workers is a lot more "all-in" than doing it off 12 workers. ie. The 7th worker increase resource collection by ~17% whereas the 13th worker increase resource collection by 8%. This is huge. So the advantage a defending player has from defending a rush in LOTV is a LOT less than what they would have had in HOTS or WOL. | ||
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Aunvilgodess
954 Posts
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