Is The Game Too Fast?

On October 10 2018 12:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Blizzard should revert the clock change so it goes back to display Blizzard time. If it displayed 16 minutes rather than 11 minutes there would be a lot less complaining.

On October 10 2018 12:54 geokilla wrote:

Lol I don't think the clock time has anything to do with it. It's just the pace of the game increased dramatically.

On October 10 2018 13:19 halomonian wrote:
The thing is, its not too fast. It is too definitive. In broodwar, it takes ages to finish off an opponent when you both go for macro games. In SC2, once the pendulum swings one way, its not coming back so easily, since you have perfect control and at the top level its rare for players to commit fuckups that would add up to costing someone the game. My simple balance idea would be to introduce the miss % from low to high ground. I would also like to see how sc2 behaves with limited unit selection and building, since managing a ton of stuff and having it go wrong constantly is one of the major comeback mechanics in BW for example

On October 10 2018 20:27 seom wrote:
to avoid confusion it is important to differentiate between the mechanical game speed required for multitasking, controlling units etc and the game speed referred to in the op.

it sounds like op is referring to the overall flow of the game (early + mid game being played out too quickly) rather than apm.

On October 10 2018 20:59 SCHRECKEN111 wrote:
and what if fun means fast game which gives you adrenaline ? If you prefer slow games, play civilisation. I know it`s hard and challenging game but If you achieve sth in SC2 you feel that this is an achievement .I remember when I went to platin few months ago - It really boost my self-confidence - it improved my self-image - i felt better in real life exactly because it`s fast and demanding and not for everyone - it`s exclusive game for smart people who like competition and excitement.

On October 10 2018 20:27 seom wrote:
to avoid confusion it is important to differentiate between the mechanical game speed required for multitasking, controlling units etc and the game speed referred to in the op.

it sounds like op is referring to the overall flow of the game (early + mid game being played out too quickly) rather than apm.

On October 10 2018 20:21 SCHRECKEN111 wrote:
Dude, i`m 39 (probably one of the oldest sc2 player ) and I manage without a problem with the current speed. I find the game more exciting now than it was in the time of Hots. If I can have 160 average apm in my age you can reach this level also - and it allows me to play platin league - even if I can play 5-6 matches a week because of the work.
So cheer up and practice

On October 11 2018 00:19 Hannibaal wrote:
It is, but it needs to be very fast, SC2 offers too many facilities to the player, I mean the automining, multiple building selection, the ease of using spells, a move units, armies that can be put into a single control group, F2 key, etc. , etc. If you want a more leisurely game, without so much Terrible Damage and with longer battles and with more micro battles, it would be necessary to eliminate the automining and maybe also the MBS, that will not happen at this point, it would be like taking out a new game, but It's sad, that's what Blizzard should have done in 2010.

And I forgot, macromechanic (mules, injects, chrono) are also part of the problem, they trigger the economy and take players to the late game too early, and that with so many design flaws is a problem, the late game of SC2 is the worst of this game, deathball against deathball, zergs with vision of more than half of the map.... is stupid, trash.

On October 10 2018 20:21 SCHRECKEN111 wrote:
Dude, i`m 39 (probably one of the oldest sc2 player ) and I manage without a problem with the current speed. I find the game more exciting now than it was in the time of Hots. If I can have 160 average apm in my age you can reach this level also - and it allows me to play platin league - even if I can play 5-6 matches a week because of the work.
So cheer up and practice

On October 10 2018 12:41 geokilla wrote:
Case in point, Rogue and aLive are playing right now in the Ballistix Brawl. At 11 minutes into the game, we have Rogue on 6 bases with complete map control, covering 2/3 to 3/4 of the map in creep, and already on Hive tech building out Broodlords and Ultralisks.

On October 11 2018 17:38 fronkschnonk wrote:

You're missing the point. A really failed proxyrax will also let you be behind but in LOTV a scouted proxy isn't automatically failed proxy anymore. Look at Maru's Games vs TY: he was mostly scouted quite early but he managed to deal damage to TY while still macroing behind his harassment. He almost always had more workers than TY after his harassment - not because of killing so much workers but because TY had to produce army units instead of workers.

On October 11 2018 17:38 fronkschnonk wrote:
You're missing the point. A really failed proxyrax will also let you be behind but in LOTV a scouted proxy isn't automatically failed proxy anymore. Look at Maru's Games vs TY: he was mostly scouted quite early but he managed to deal damage to TY while still macroing behind his harassment. He almost always had more workers than TY after his harassment - not because of killing so much workers but because TY had to produce army units instead of workers.

On October 12 2018 23:02 brickrd wrote:
making the game slower would just weaken harassment and revert the spirit of the game to heart of the swarm where even people who LIKED the game made fun of every macro game being a long deathball buildup

this is just another in a long line of reachy "grass is greener..." ideas people come up with because they're anxious about how challenging this game is. the real solution to that is for people to behave in a more civilized way on ladder

On October 12 2018 23:40 SHODAN wrote:


first, you completely missed my point. second, there is nothing special about Maru's APM (~300-330). it's what he does with his actions that set him apart from the rest.

my point is this: Maru has reached the micro skill ceiling. we are never going to see next-level splits or next level marine shuffling on the current game speed. there is only so much fine unit movements a human can do when the game is this fast.

if the game was slowed down 5%, Maru would be even more godlike than he already is, because of his superior micro mechanics.

here's an example of an imaginary game: Zest somehow survives Maru's early and mid-game aggression. Zest defends with robo units and is slightly ahead of Maru in terms of army quality. Maru has lots of MMM, but no high-tech units like liberators / ghosts. Zest has colossus, disruptors, storm, etc etc.

on the current game speed, Maru is 100% dead.

slow the game down 5%, maybe... just maybe there would be enough delay between all those splash attacks that Maru could out-micro Zest. the battle would last a few more seconds than usual. in that time, he could split his bio better, kite bio better, dodge stalker shots with hot pick-ups.

On October 12 2018 22:31 fronkschnonk wrote:

But where comes the notion from that 2 proxy rax has to be seen as an all-in? You're confusing being agressive with doing an all-in. It's not that Maru does outright win his games with his proxies. They give him an advantage and therefore they aren't allins but harassment.

On October 12 2018 22:34 StarscreamG1 wrote:
If they change the pathing, the game speed would not be a problem. It would decrease de "one hit" gg.

On October 11 2018 17:38 fronkschnonk wrote:

You're missing the point. A really failed proxyrax will also let you be behind but in LOTV a scouted proxy isn't automatically failed proxy anymore. Look at Maru's Games vs TY: he was mostly scouted quite early but he managed to deal damage to TY while still macroing behind his harassment. He almost always had more workers than TY after his harassment - not because of killing so much workers but because TY had to produce army units instead of workers.

On October 13 2018 04:31 SHODAN wrote:


I edited my previous post to explain what I mean. is sc2 the only rts you watch / play? the player with the best micro almost always wins in wc3. the player with the best micro very often wins in brood war. the player with the best micro only sometimes wins in sc2. that's the way it is. I think players with superior micro should win more often, and slowing the game down might be a good way of doing that.

if you go from playing sc2 to wc3, it seems sluggish at first... but once you get into the swing of things, your apm picks up to sc2 levels. you will be microing like crazy. every grunt has a different command, not just A-move. every unit needs babysitting. that's what I mean by squeezing more out of sc2 units. if the game is slower, it would become realistic to stim / shuffle forward 1 marine to eat a tank shot... more realistic to perform show-stopping unit control. with the current game speed, this "sick micro" unit interaction is kinda rare... even at pro korean level. it's sad because micro is the one thing that makes the crowd go crazy.

easier / less punishing? I don't agree. slower game speed, more micro potential = more difficult, more punishing for the less skilled player. sometimes the less skilled player can win the game through sheer numbers... how many times have you heard "wellllllllllll, it's just a number game at this point. yep, just waiting for him to tap out."

why do you think there is never any incredible comebacks in sc2? because the game is too fast for that! in wc3 / brood war, you can take more damage and still have a chance to win if you have patience and superior micro. I'm not saying to slow the game down to wc3 levels, but even a slight decrease might improve the game.

On October 14 2018 00:13 Charoisaur wrote:

Only that at he pro level nobody ever just amoves during a fight.

On October 14 2018 00:13 Charoisaur wrote:

Only that at he pro level nobody ever just amoves during a fight.

On October 14 2018 06:32 A.Alm wrote:
I think the battles are too fast. Everything dies so fast and the come-back potential is very small.

On October 13 2018 06:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I am no wc3 expert, but afaik wc3 is more micro focused mainly due to the hero system and them actively punishing you if you go above a certain supply.
Both bw and sc2 are macro focused because there is no hero unit which has top priority, building more army usually just wins you the game. Now is bw more micro focused than sc2? No i don't think so, it's rather more macro focused. Why? Because you need more input and focus to macro compared to sc2, you need to spend more time macroing. You might prefer the micro you do in bw though, that's another topic entirely

On October 14 2018 14:47 Vindicare605 wrote:
I'm not saying that I agree nor do I disagree with the idea that the game is too fast right now, but I'm just pointing out that LoTV is a lot more successful in both balance and overall enjoyment of gameplay than HoTS was BECAUSE the game got sped up, BECAUSE the bases mine out so much faster.

On October 14 2018 19:11 nanaoei wrote:
play your games in fast speed as opposed to faster.
you'll see very quickly players--unless they are training to become the very best--adapt themselves to play at the slower speed, rather than to increase the effectiveness of their skills on faster.
in other words, they become lazy and take the relative ease for granted.
you should know that in all walks of life, people are like this.

a slower speed allows for multitasking with lesser skill rather than to directly expand upon it.
believe it or not if you trained enough you could control the hellion runby with reaper, and the banshee harass, while adding 2 rax and expo+depots+workers+engi bays, all to the degree that you wish and without missing an essential beat.
because most people will never do this, it's assumed the strategy or overall maneuver is overall bad (until proven otherwise in televised games) or the game is too fast to allow you to do it adeptly.
when does the player take direct responsibility for something like that? because it's easier than you think.
no skill is obtained by stumbling into it. you could organically achieve something close by keeping an open mind and practicing the motions, but until you work at it, why is it the game's flaw and not your own?
why is it not worth your time to change how you essentially play, for the better?

because all it takes is an integer switch to completely alter your view on something, or to make it more enjoyable, more easy for you?
maybe the game is much harder than it needs to be and focuses less on the nature of strategy than you would like.

but the game is fast and you can also play fast.
there are so many opportunities where you make mistakes and easily make up for them by focusing on the strategy aspect of the game. so many of these situations occur during a game and you probably don't even notice or give that credit.

a huge problem with starcraft communities at the beginning was that they were so focused on discussing the nitty gritty of why balance is so bad currently, instead of figuring out how to play it out.
in other words, complaining more than just playing and understanding that a few little opinions voiced on a forum isn't going to change a single thing with how you'll play tomorrow.
when all it really came down to--and the only thing you can truly depend on happening--is using your head. practice.

On October 14 2018 20:30 Drfilip wrote:

While a lot of what you are saying is reasonable, it isn't quite true.
Any player that make a living of playing well will not get lazy. The professionals will not lower their APM because the speed of the game slows down. You said this as well.
Average Joe would initially enjoy the slower speed, but will also aim to win. This will also keep the APM of average Joe up. This is opposed to what you said.
The only players that will play lazily are the ones who find joy in the game without the need to win. I believe they are a minority. They will ahppily accept the lower game speed. This agrees with what you said.

The vast majority of the players will still keep their APM and play quickly with the reduced game speed.

Regarding your other point, the possibility to improve, I can say that I am physically inhibited from playing faster. My body is unable to use movements that are distinct enough while being faster. I have tried improving for about 15 years, playing different games. The only improvement is my understanding and what my priorities are.
This limitation has nothing to do with me using my off hand, since I'm ambidextrious. I have no neurological issues. I am an average human.
I am playing in platinum league, the "above average league", and I often face diamond players. I would very much like to be able to do more multitasking, but the game is too fast for me. If the game were to be slower on ladder, I would find more joy in playing the ladder. I assume that I am not alone in this.

On October 14 2018 00:03 virpi wrote:

Different people enjoy different things. Personally, I really love playing and watching LOTV. It is a very deep strategic game, but of course you need the ability to execute a lot of commands in a short span of time. Watching high level BW is even more seizure inducing than SC2, because players have to be even faster to keep up.

On October 15 2018 03:46 Kaz1 wrote:
The change in the starting worker count made the beginning extremely uncomfortable to play.

I do not play regularly enough any more to know the maps by heart. I feel like I have no time to even look around the map before my attention is required to not bork the beginning. The later stages of the game are fine in speed. This hasn't changed much in a long time. I played broodwar, and both previous iterations of SC2. I have played like 50 games total of LotV simply due to the worker change.

The enjoyment of starcraft, in particular, was that you start from virtually nothing, and built up to very high degrees of complexity in decision making and execution. Now you start with a fire under your ass, with no time to consider anything. It feels like there is virtually no early to mid game at all. You get a cannon rush or a 12 pool now and then, but they are much more manageable with less scouting. Scouting seems to mainly be for what the brief midgame will be. But still, there seems to be much less variance over time of what is sucessful (that is probably just me).

This is the 3rd? total rebalance, and they have done virtually nothing with the economy. Just farted around with whether or not the mineral stacks are the same size to force more expansion, or to slightly mediate it. It is simply not enjoyable to me.

On October 15 2018 03:46 Kaz1 wrote:
The change in the starting worker count made the beginning extremely uncomfortable to play.

I do not play regularly enough any more to know the maps by heart. I feel like I have no time to even look around the map before my attention is required to not bork the beginning. The later stages of the game are fine in speed. This hasn't changed much in a long time. I played broodwar, and both previous iterations of SC2. I have played like 50 games total of LotV simply due to the worker change.

The enjoyment of starcraft, in particular, was that you start from virtually nothing, and built up to very high degrees of complexity in decision making and execution. Now you start with a fire under your ass, with no time to consider anything. It feels like there is virtually no early to mid game at all. You get a cannon rush or a 12 pool now and then, but they are much more manageable with less scouting. Scouting seems to mainly be for what the brief midgame will be. But still, there seems to be much less variance over time of what is sucessful (that is probably just me).

This is the 3rd? total rebalance, and they have done virtually nothing with the economy. Just farted around with whether or not the mineral stacks are the same size to force more expansion, or to slightly mediate it. It is simply not enjoyable to me.