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Austria24416 Posts
On June 23 2018 05:33 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2018 04:28 Olli wrote:On June 23 2018 03:57 Charoisaur wrote:On June 22 2018 02:38 Olli wrote:On June 22 2018 02:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 22 2018 01:48 Olli wrote:On June 22 2018 01:20 Fango wrote:On June 22 2018 00:59 Olli wrote:On June 22 2018 00:46 Fango wrote:On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final,  Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now. I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver). In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017. How did Maru do in 2016? He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017. Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17. They really don't though, but hey maybe if you add the Game Land Invitational it could be close  Along with a Ro8 at BlizzCon? Yeah I don't see how what Maru did 2016-17 was any better than Zest's results after his peak in early 2016. Not that that is the point, though. Nobody in 16-17 considered Maru anywhere near a championship challenger, which for a player if his caliber qualifies as a slump. A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak doesn't change that. "A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak" LOL how was Proleague incredibly weak? If Proleague was incredibly weak then GSL was incredibly weak as well. Because a lot of good people were either not playing SC2 seriously (Rogue, herO for example), others were simply not good at LotV yet (Classic for example), the overall level of play in Proleague was awful as people knew it was ending and teams would be disbanding, a lot of good players had already retired. Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive. Zest's HSC runs actually had more games against really good players - GSL champion Gumiho, Solar, ByuN, soon-to-be IEM champion Scarlett, SSL champion Stats. All Bo5+. I will take that over Bo1s against people like Blaze, Losira, etc. and a handful of good players in Bo1s every day. As for GSL, it wasn't as weak, because bad players get eliminated, you know? That doesn't happen in PL. "Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive." holy shit, you must be joking at this point... He took out Dear, INno, TY x3, Stats x2, Dark, Zest, Solar, Gumiho, aLive, Classic, ByuL, Bunny x2, Myungsik, Leenock, and Losira. That includes almost the entire top 10 of WCS Korea (minus ByuN). You simply cannot downplay proleague because of the supposed level of play, and then assume HSCs mean anything at all. HSC is not a serious premier event. No high level player prepares specifically for it, or for the opponents there. Players in proleague would be crying or dancing out of their seats after matches because it was an event of great importance, it was literally their job to perform there. Many times teams even forced players to practice for SPL over individual leagues. I doubt the top players even care that much if they win or lose there, so to put it's ridiculous for fans to give it the same weighting as proleague or starleagues. To value HSC highly is to value the minor LANs and online cups highly. The fact that Zest won HSC while failing to qualify for a GSL is not something worth highlighting.
The impressive names here are Zest, TY, Stats, Dark, Dear and Solar. That's exactly what I said. A handful of good players in Bo1s. Everyone else was bad.
I've been to four HSCs. If you think the Koreans don't take it seriously you're wrong. They go straight home after their matches and spend the entire event practicing until they're eliminated. Plus the level of play was much higher than it was in 2016 for reasons I have highlighted multiple times.
Anyway, you are still completely, 100% missing the point. Some guy tried to argue that Maru didn't go through a slump comparable to Zest's. Well, after his Proleague run Maru did literally nothing for the rest of 2016. And then did very little in 2017 too. He did a bit better than Zest in 2017, but also did very significantly worse in 2016. To suggest the two arent comparable is absurd.
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Maru will give him a game or two with the 5rax build
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Their trajectories are comparable.
Maru was at the top of the world in early 2015, Zest early 2016, then became weaker and weaker with poor performance at Blizzcon, like Zest, to finish 24th in the WCS ranking the year after and 20th for Zest.
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can anyone tell me what their respective winrates are in premier finals.
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On June 23 2018 05:54 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2018 05:33 Fango wrote:On June 23 2018 04:28 Olli wrote:On June 23 2018 03:57 Charoisaur wrote:On June 22 2018 02:38 Olli wrote:On June 22 2018 02:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 22 2018 01:48 Olli wrote:On June 22 2018 01:20 Fango wrote:On June 22 2018 00:59 Olli wrote:On June 22 2018 00:46 Fango wrote:
[quote]
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017. How did Maru do in 2016? He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017. Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17. They really don't though, but hey maybe if you add the Game Land Invitational it could be close Along with a Ro8 at BlizzCon? Yeah I don't see how what Maru did 2016-17 was any better than Zest's results after his peak in early 2016. Not that that is the point, though. Nobody in 16-17 considered Maru anywhere near a championship challenger, which for a player if his caliber qualifies as a slump. A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak doesn't change that. "A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak" LOL how was Proleague incredibly weak? If Proleague was incredibly weak then GSL was incredibly weak as well. Because a lot of good people were either not playing SC2 seriously (Rogue, herO for example), others were simply not good at LotV yet (Classic for example), the overall level of play in Proleague was awful as people knew it was ending and teams would be disbanding, a lot of good players had already retired. Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive. Zest's HSC runs actually had more games against really good players - GSL champion Gumiho, Solar, ByuN, soon-to-be IEM champion Scarlett, SSL champion Stats. All Bo5+. I will take that over Bo1s against people like Blaze, Losira, etc. and a handful of good players in Bo1s every day. As for GSL, it wasn't as weak, because bad players get eliminated, you know? That doesn't happen in PL. "Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive." holy shit, you must be joking at this point... He took out Dear, INno, TY x3, Stats x2, Dark, Zest, Solar, Gumiho, aLive, Classic, ByuL, Bunny x2, Myungsik, Leenock, and Losira. That includes almost the entire top 10 of WCS Korea (minus ByuN). You simply cannot downplay proleague because of the supposed level of play, and then assume HSCs mean anything at all. HSC is not a serious premier event. No high level player prepares specifically for it, or for the opponents there. Players in proleague would be crying or dancing out of their seats after matches because it was an event of great importance, it was literally their job to perform there. Many times teams even forced players to practice for SPL over individual leagues. I doubt the top players even care that much if they win or lose there, so to put it's ridiculous for fans to give it the same weighting as proleague or starleagues. To value HSC highly is to value the minor LANs and online cups highly. The fact that Zest won HSC while failing to qualify for a GSL is not something worth highlighting. The impressive names here are Zest, TY, Stats, Dark, Dear and Solar. That's exactly what I said. A handful of good players in Bo1s. Everyone else was bad. I've been to four HSCs. If you think the Koreans don't take it seriously you're wrong. They go straight home after their matches and spend the entire event practicing until they're eliminated. Plus the level of play was much higher than it was in 2016 for reasons I have highlighted multiple times. Anyway, you are still completely, 100% missing the point. Some guy tried to argue that Maru didn't go through a slump comparable to Zest's. Well, after his Proleague run Maru did literally nothing for the rest of 2016. And then did very little in 2017 too. He did a bit better than Zest in 2017, but also did very significantly worse in 2016. To suggest the two arent comparable is absurd.
Even if you don't seem to consider Proleague to be important, the players definitely did and that's what counts. For them it was just as important as a Starleague and having the best run in SC2 history is certainly not "nothing".
It's easily as impressive as winning a GSL.
Also Classic, aLive, Gumiho and Inno were certainly not bad lol.
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Just popped in to say my boy Maru is absolutely going to roll over Zest just like he did in the previous season finals vs Stats, and the most recent Protoss victim Classic (who's PvT just so happens to be much much better/convincing than Zests).
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INno was REALLY bad in 2016, so he tried mass cyclones builds with Dream.
aLive and Gumiho were nothing more than Leenock this year, so i dont think itwas a remarkable performance to beat them in a bo1.
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The UFC altered the starting time of their event so it comes on at 8 AM EST right after the GSL event is over.
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On June 23 2018 09:38 DieuCure wrote:INno was REALLY bad in 2016, so he tried mass cyclones builds with Dream. aLive and Gumiho were nothing more than Leenock this year, so i dont think itwas a remarkable performance to beat them in a bo1.
aLive was really strong early 2016, one of the best terrans. Gumiho had good Proleague results and a GSL ro8 and Inno was also good in Proleague
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As great as it is to see Zest playing at a high level again, I think he's still a step behind Maru. 4-1 to the terran.
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Zest has great killer instincts and Protoss's strength vs T may have carried him against an overly passive Ty, but he does not have the multi-tasking or macro to withstand Maru's mid-late game aggression. (Does any other korean protoss consistently float 2k+ minerals with idle warpgates as much as Zest?)
Sure, he will pick up 1 or 2 bullshit wins with early game damage, but I don't see how he could possibly win 4 games given Maru's current form.
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On June 23 2018 09:36 Togekiss wrote:
Just popped in to say my boy Maru is absolutely going to roll over Zest just like he did in the previous season finals vs Stats, and the most recent Protoss victim Classic (who's PvT just so happens to be much much better/convincing than Zests).
Classic's PvT is more convincing than Zest's because Zest plays in a lot more tournaments and thus has more opportunities to lose. Zest is undefeated in offline series in 2018 against South Korean Terrans like Classic was prior to his semi-final loss.
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Austria24416 Posts
On June 23 2018 09:14 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2018 05:54 Olli wrote:On June 23 2018 05:33 Fango wrote:On June 23 2018 04:28 Olli wrote:On June 23 2018 03:57 Charoisaur wrote:On June 22 2018 02:38 Olli wrote:On June 22 2018 02:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 22 2018 01:48 Olli wrote:On June 22 2018 01:20 Fango wrote:On June 22 2018 00:59 Olli wrote:
[quote]
How did Maru do in 2016? He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017. Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17. They really don't though, but hey maybe if you add the Game Land Invitational it could be close Along with a Ro8 at BlizzCon? Yeah I don't see how what Maru did 2016-17 was any better than Zest's results after his peak in early 2016. Not that that is the point, though. Nobody in 16-17 considered Maru anywhere near a championship challenger, which for a player if his caliber qualifies as a slump. A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak doesn't change that. "A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak" LOL how was Proleague incredibly weak? If Proleague was incredibly weak then GSL was incredibly weak as well. Because a lot of good people were either not playing SC2 seriously (Rogue, herO for example), others were simply not good at LotV yet (Classic for example), the overall level of play in Proleague was awful as people knew it was ending and teams would be disbanding, a lot of good players had already retired. Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive. Zest's HSC runs actually had more games against really good players - GSL champion Gumiho, Solar, ByuN, soon-to-be IEM champion Scarlett, SSL champion Stats. All Bo5+. I will take that over Bo1s against people like Blaze, Losira, etc. and a handful of good players in Bo1s every day. As for GSL, it wasn't as weak, because bad players get eliminated, you know? That doesn't happen in PL. "Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive." holy shit, you must be joking at this point... He took out Dear, INno, TY x3, Stats x2, Dark, Zest, Solar, Gumiho, aLive, Classic, ByuL, Bunny x2, Myungsik, Leenock, and Losira. That includes almost the entire top 10 of WCS Korea (minus ByuN). You simply cannot downplay proleague because of the supposed level of play, and then assume HSCs mean anything at all. HSC is not a serious premier event. No high level player prepares specifically for it, or for the opponents there. Players in proleague would be crying or dancing out of their seats after matches because it was an event of great importance, it was literally their job to perform there. Many times teams even forced players to practice for SPL over individual leagues. I doubt the top players even care that much if they win or lose there, so to put it's ridiculous for fans to give it the same weighting as proleague or starleagues. To value HSC highly is to value the minor LANs and online cups highly. The fact that Zest won HSC while failing to qualify for a GSL is not something worth highlighting. The impressive names here are Zest, TY, Stats, Dark, Dear and Solar. That's exactly what I said. A handful of good players in Bo1s. Everyone else was bad. I've been to four HSCs. If you think the Koreans don't take it seriously you're wrong. They go straight home after their matches and spend the entire event practicing until they're eliminated. Plus the level of play was much higher than it was in 2016 for reasons I have highlighted multiple times. Anyway, you are still completely, 100% missing the point. Some guy tried to argue that Maru didn't go through a slump comparable to Zest's. Well, after his Proleague run Maru did literally nothing for the rest of 2016. And then did very little in 2017 too. He did a bit better than Zest in 2017, but also did very significantly worse in 2016. To suggest the two arent comparable is absurd. Even if you don't seem to consider Proleague to be important, the players definitely did and that's what counts. For them it was just as important as a Starleague and having the best run in SC2 history is certainly not "nothing". It's easily as impressive as winning a GSL. Also Classic, aLive, Gumiho and Inno were certainly not bad lol.
The fact that you think beating INnoVation in 2016 means anything tells me what I need to know.
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Well, Maru and Zest will settle the issue in person soon enough.
Seriously, all the dick-measuring-by-proxy can get really tedious around here. I'm guilty of it myself, to be fair, but I stopped as of 2018. It's really not that hard to stop flinging shit on the internet. Small steps, people.
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Osaka27093 Posts
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Can someone give me the total game-time of this finals?
Was it like 35 minutes? less?
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On June 23 2018 18:35 Geo.Rion wrote:
Can someone give me the total game-time of this finals?
Was it like 35 minutes? less?
Game 1: 11:21
Game 2: 7:47
Game 3: 3:44
Game 4: 10:05
Total: 32 minutes and 57 seconds
I play 2 ladder games for that long LOL.
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Korea (South)227 Posts
Yeah, Zest didn't even seem to have a slight hold on the games apart from the last one, and even then Maru just steamrolled his way to victory.
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EPT
