Records aren’t meant to stand forever, but some just seem out of reach.
NesTea’s undefeated run through the fourth edition of Code S was one of the most noteworthy moments in StarCraft II's early history. He may have swept InCa in the finals a season before, but not dropping a map throughout the entire tournament easily topped his first Code S championship run. We ooh’d and ahh’d as he capped his dominating performance by trouncing Losira, a matchup that was lopsided from start to finish. But, as is the nature of things, the significance of NesTea’s achievement was only fully appreciated in posterity. We were so enthused with our new RTS and its bright future, the magnitude of that particular evening was lost amid jubilance.
To this day NesTea’s back to back titles are unmatched. Time eroded the significance of his other accomplishments while NesTea’s presence was eclipsed by the new guard. His rival Mvp had a trophy made just for him to celebrate a possible fifth GSL victory; INnoVation staked his ownership on Season 3 while Dear, Zest and Life walked the Royal Road; soO became the new standard in Zerg resilience with his six finals appearances. Yet GSL proved too harsh a landscape for anyone to replicate his championship defense. Balance and map pools ensured a longstanding volatility that hindered all but the most talented; maintaining form was a tricky endeavor that no one could preserve long-term. Add in the hypercompetitiveness of the Korean scene, and the prospect of back-to-back wins started looking like an insurmountable obstacle. Since NesTea a champion has surrendered their throne 23 consecutive times to another. Only now is an end in sight.
Seven years have passed since NesTea's back-to-back championships, but Maru is one match away from restoring the tradition. For one of the most lauded players in the history of StarCraft II, it was a long time coming. His victory in GSL last season was a belated confirmation of his genius. He may have been the best Terran throughout the majority of Heart of the Swarm, but the GSL championship forever eluded him. The early days of LotV robbed him of that distinction too as he looked far less formidable during the first two years of the expansions. Underwhelming performances and inexplicable losses meant Maru never got within shouting distance of the finals. Only in early 2018 did his brilliance shine through.
It was easy to admire Maru. He was always dynamic and cunning, reckless and daring. Eight years into a career with very humble beginnings, these attributes still define him. Yet we’ve witnessed an entirely different Maru this year. As ruthless and incisive as ever, there’s been a methodical element to his play we’ve never seen before. His mastery of the late game when it comes to unit control and strategy far exceeds that he exhibited earlier in his career. Although his play was still rough around the edges, IEM Katowice was our first hint of this new, improved version.
Having endured a 1093 day spell without a title, Maru is rapidly building a legacy to rival that of any to play the game. His play polished to a mirror sheen, he recently became the first and only player to win an OSL, SSL and GSL. A second consecutive GSL title would elevate him to rarified heights. He may not be able to replicate Nestea’s unbeaten Code S campaign—and in this day and age, who can?—but his 31-6 mark in offline matches since the beginning of last season outstrips NesTea’s 13-4 run that saw him win back to back titles. There were doubters aplenty when he lost to KeeN to kick off Code S this year, but Maru has dispelled all concerns since.
He’s done so through adaptability as much as brute force. His TvP has been impeccable over the past six months, and he showcased an astute command of the dreaded ghost-raven late game army. He’s excelled in every aspect of the matchup: an unmatched tactician in the early stages of TvP, an iron-fisted ruler of the mid-game, and a behemoth in the late game (pre-raven nerf). changing his tactics to fit the meta as well as the opponent. People have been able to waylay Maru but none have stopped him in his tracks. The aforementioned loss against KeeN was short lived as he bounced back to defeat him and advance from the group. He has similarly claimed revenge against Dear, Rogue and Classic for losses earlier in the year on the way to his second straight final.
Maru enters the match as the clear favorite. Where Zest has been adequate, enduring more than impressing, Maru has been exemplary. He’s far and away the best player in the world, displaying stellar form during a period in which other contenders have chronically fallen short. If defeating Stats in the Season 1 finals confirmed his status, what would winning a second consecutive final tell us? Should he defeat Zest, there’s no doubt we’ll be asking if the three-peat is possible.
If Nestea really did create the universe, he did so with this moment in mind: when a prodigy turned titan would finally inherit his legacy. NesTea and Maru are both essential figures in the history of StarCraft II. Though Maru is different in that his tale is still being written. The highest earning player the game has ever seen, Maru will enter the final looking to add another trophy to his cabinet. Beyond that, a place beside one of the game’s greatest legends and pioneers is four GG’s away. It’s been a long time coming, but even this record could not go unmatched forever.
Had this piece been written a few weeks ago, no player in StarCraft II would have personified that phrase more than Zest, with every aspect that saying entails. What a mighty player Zest was during his peaks in 2014 and 2016. History is easily forgotten as StarCraft II continues to live and breathe, new champions arise and seemingly set new standards, only to fade away and themselves become history. But Zest, despite a prolonged period of mediocrity, has edged his name in stone in a way only a handful of players have, and now looks to add to an already wonderful career.
Think back to 2014. Zest, a player of little accomplishments, became a triple champion of Korean tournaments, equaling the record set by Mvp, then still the uncontested greatest player ever. That record remains unbroken, albeit now also met by INnoVation. There was hardly a moment in 2014 when Zest was not commonly considered the best player in the world. He played an integral role in KT Rolster’s Proleague victory and reached the quarterfinals of every tournament he entered—until BlizzCon, where he lost a close series to the eventual champion, Life.
Think back to 2016. Zest laid down one of the most dominant and impressive GSL runs we have seen. Dropping a grand total of three maps all tournament, he dispatched of TaeJa, Journey, Cure, soO, TaeJa again, Dear, and TY in emphatic fashion. Those names may seem less impressive from today’s perspective, but consider that, at the time, Dear was the best not-Zest-Protoss in the world, soO was second only to Dark as Zergs went, and TY was far and away the best Terran—Cure was considered the second best. With that GSL victory, Zest equaled MC’s record for most GSL championships of any Protoss in SCII.
Then came the fall. KT Rolster, alongside every other Proleague team bar Jin Air Green Wings, disbanded their SCII roster and left Zest stranded. That radical change in environment appeared to hit Zest harder than most other Korean professionals, something he has since alluded to in interviews. Zest’s status in the community meant that while he flew under the radar of the everyday GSL spectator who saw little of him in 2017 but early eliminations or even failure to qualify altogether, he remained a name of interest to the ‘hardcore’ community, the selected few who also follow the various online circuits Zest still played in. What they saw appeared in stark contrast to his GSL and SSL failures. And failures they were. Eliminated in the Ro32 of Code S twice, two last place finishes in SSL Premier and Challenger, first round elimination from GSL Super Tournament, not even qualified for GSL Season 3.
There were always small sparks of hope for his fans. HomeStory Cup may not be considered an impressive tournament to win, given the feeling of passive intoxication it invokes in anyone watching even from halfway across the globe, but it is a tournament that has good players. A tournament that Zest won back-to-back, ensuring his record of winning at least one offline tournament per year since his big breakout moment in 2014 remains secure even if he fails to win this GSL. GuMiho, uThermal, ByuN, Scarlett, Stats, and Solar are opponents worthy of respect and Zest defeated them in HSC playoffs. With his latest HSC win, Zest became the record holder for most Protoss tournament wins at seven—ahead of MC, sOs, herO, PartinG, et cetera.
But more disappointment was soon to follow as Zest crashed out of another GSL Super Tournament in the opening round, and failed to advance past the group stage of IEM Katowice. HomeStory Cup seemed like just another blip on the radar, not unlike the dozens of online victories he amassed in his time out of the spotlight of the Korean and international circuits.
This season of GSL started no differently. Trap topped his Ro32 group while Zest ground out two rather unconvincing series against SortOf. Maru topped his Ro16 group as Zest lost to Solar in his opening match. But it was then that fortunes turned for no apparent reason. Zest bounced back to make short work of Patience and Solar to advance to the quarterfinals, where he removed Dear from the GSL as though he should never have been there in the first place. TY, who eliminated much stronger opponents in Dark, Trap and GuMiho, might have lost to Zest by a much steeper margin if not for an unscouted proxy, a failed proxy void-ray all in, and a lucky scout on Zest’s planned immortal/prism all-in that the Protoss was forced to abandon, setting him behind. Every game that played out ‘normally’, Zest dominated.
Think back on Zest’s career. Remember what names we used to mention in the same breath as Zest? Mvp, INnoVation, Life, MC. All names commonly dropped in debates about the greatest ever players to touch StarCraft II. Zest is one of them. He is one of the greatest players to ever take up a mouse and compete in this game. Think back on their careers. How many times did Mvp bounce back from injury to win yet another title? How many times did Life come back from periods of mediocrity to return to his peak? How many times did MC surprise us with awesome showings when we had long counted him out? How many times did INnoVation bounce back to claim more titles? Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
That is what champions do. Their class, their experience and their will to succeed allow them to climb out of the deepest holes and return to glory. The mighty may fall, but they rise again. A two time GSL champion, an IEM World Champion, a KeSPA Cup and Proleague champion, the most successful Protoss in SCII’s history, Zest exemplifies that class like only a handful others. Should we really be surprised if he wins another GSL?
great articles! well researched, great recaps of sc2 history...
Sad that i won't make it to korea to watch this finals... already went for Maru vs Stats which was sadly so one-sided. Also sad that I was the first person in line for a ticket and they gave me literally the worst seat in the studio...
I trust Zest will make this epic... if he wins this, he will prove a true champion, standing alone... No KT coach or team to make a claim on such a win.
Great article. Very enjoyable read. I'm so exited for the finals and while I thought the story of Zest was cool, I'd much rather see another Maru victory! Crossing fingers.
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Great reads; I think at this point the bias-toned writing in the section for Maru is completely justified, you can't deny the fact that he's the favorite here.
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
They really don't though, but hey maybe if you add the Game Land Invitational it could be close
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
greater. everyone knows HSC is the best tournament to win
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
They really don't though, but hey maybe if you add the Game Land Invitational it could be close
Along with a Ro8 at BlizzCon? Yeah I don't see how what Maru did 2016-17 was any better than Zest's results after his peak in early 2016.
Not that that is the point, though. Nobody in 16-17 considered Maru anywhere near a championship challenger, which for a player if his caliber qualifies as a slump. A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak doesn't change that.
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
They really don't though, but hey maybe if you add the Game Land Invitational it could be close
Along with a Ro8 at BlizzCon? Yeah I don't see how what Maru did 2016-17 was any better than Zest's results after his peak in early 2016.
Not that that is the point, though. Nobody in 16-17 considered Maru anywhere near a championship challenger, which for a player if his caliber qualifies as a slump. A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak doesn't change that.
Proleague was weak enough for results there to be disregarded but HSCs still count?
Both Zest and Maru did amazing things in 2016, it was 2017 where they both slumped. And out of the two, Maru did legions better. Zest went 1-9 in SSL and either lost in GSL ro32 or the qualifiers. Maru went 5-4 both seasons in SSL iirc and made GSL ro4 and ro8. HSCs are cool but they aren't on the same level as actual premier events.
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
This HAS to be a joke, right?
Maru had a Proleague run and then did nothing all year. Zest did FAR more in 2016, then both did very little of note in 2017, but Zest won two tournaments while Maru's best result was a second place at WESG that, in terms of quality, is actually worse than a HSC.
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
This HAS to be a joke, right?
Maru had a Proleague run and then did nothing all year. Zest did FAR more in 2016, then both did very little of note in 2017, but Zest won two tournaments while Maru's best result was a second place at WESG that, in terms of quality, is actually worse than a HSC.
So yeah.
Proleague is waaaaaaaaaaaaay more significant than HSC for skill assessment.
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
This HAS to be a joke, right?
Maru had a Proleague run and then did nothing all year. Zest did FAR more in 2016, then both did very little of note in 2017, but Zest won two tournaments while Maru's best result was a second place at WESG that, in terms of quality, is actually worse than a HSC.
So yeah.
Proleague is waaaaaaaaaaaaay more significant than HSC for skill assessment.
Zest won a GSL when Maru had his Proleague streak. His HSCs came after while Maru posted nothing.
pretty odd how people get hung up on a single sentence ^^ maru did basically nothing in individual tournaments in 2016 and even if he had gone 30-0 in proleague, he wouldve still been slumping. while hsc is certainly not a particularly prestigious tournament (and for good reasons), zest still beat solar 4-1, byun 4-2, gumiho 3-2, stats 3-0 over the course of his two finals runs. thats still very respectable and should at least allow the comparison that was made here. way to get upset over nothing ;P
i enjoyed the article and am looking forward to the finals, gogo maru!!
No matter how I slice it, I can't see Zest winning this. A game or two, sure, but not the whole series. Maru is just too strong, too fast, and too damn good at Starcraft.
Zest can go for macro and get wrecked like Classic. Zest can go for cheese and hope he's crazier than sOs (he isn't). Zest can, and undoubtedly will, pull out all the stops, practice his fingers off, play his heart out, and resort to every dirty trick in the Great Book of Protoss Bullshit, but Maru is four games away from making Starcraft history and claiming his spot among the legends of old.
This is Maru's era, Maru's moment, and Maru's trophy.
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
This HAS to be a joke, right?
Maru had a Proleague run and then did nothing all year. Zest did FAR more in 2016, then both did very little of note in 2017, but Zest won two tournaments while Maru's best result was a second place at WESG that, in terms of quality, is actually worse than a HSC.
So yeah.
Proleague is waaaaaaaaaaaaay more significant than HSC for skill assessment.
Zest won a GSL when Maru had his Proleague streak. His HSCs came after while Maru posted nothing.
Maru didn't post nothing. He made GSL ro4 and ro8 while Zest struggled to even qualify. He also posted good results in SSL while Zest went 1-9. WeSG second place is decent as well when you consider it had all the best foreigners and a korean qualifier.
Zest is my favourate player of all time but acting like Maru did anywhere near as bad last year is factually wrong. Maru was posting average to solid results in all the events he entered. Zest on LAN was a trainwreck. And even he himself doesn't consider HSC to be a real championship, I didn't think anyone did until now.
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
This HAS to be a joke, right?
Maru had a Proleague run and then did nothing all year. Zest did FAR more in 2016, then both did very little of note in 2017, but Zest won two tournaments while Maru's best result was a second place at WESG that, in terms of quality, is actually worse than a HSC.
So yeah.
Proleague is waaaaaaaaaaaaay more significant than HSC for skill assessment.
Zest won a GSL when Maru had his Proleague streak. His HSCs came after while Maru posted nothing.
Maru didn't post nothing. He made GSL ro4 and ro8 while Zest struggled to even qualify. He also posted good results in SSL while Zest went 1-9. WeSG second place is decent as well when you consider it had all the best foreigners and a korean qualifier.
Zest is my favourate player of all time but acting like Maru did anywhere near as bad last year is factually wrong. Maru was posting average to solid results in all the events he entered. Zest on LAN was a trainwreck. And even he himself doesn't consider HSC to be a real championship, I didn't think anyone did until now.
How dare you besmirch the legendary HSC. Winning 3x HSCs is what makes Taeja the undisputed GOAT.
In China,we call Zest "Anyfin Can Happen"(The 10mana card of Paladin inHearthstone,it is translated into "Dead is back") or "King is back" I hope Zest can retake our GSL from Jinair's hold.
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
This HAS to be a joke, right?
Maru had a Proleague run and then did nothing all year. Zest did FAR more in 2016, then both did very little of note in 2017, but Zest won two tournaments while Maru's best result was a second place at WESG that, in terms of quality, is actually worse than a HSC.
So yeah.
Proleague is waaaaaaaaaaaaay more significant than HSC for skill assessment.
Zest won a GSL when Maru had his Proleague streak. His HSCs came after while Maru posted nothing.
Maru didn't post nothing. He made GSL ro4 and ro8 while Zest struggled to even qualify. He also posted good results in SSL while Zest went 1-9. WeSG second place is decent as well when you consider it had all the best foreigners and a korean qualifier.
Zest is my favourate player of all time but acting like Maru did anywhere near as bad last year is factually wrong. Maru was posting average to solid results in all the events he entered. Zest on LAN was a trainwreck. And even he himself doesn't consider HSC to be a real championship, I didn't think anyone did until now.
Both players now are very different from what we used to watch in the past. Maru finally seems like a complete universal player and literally has no weak spots. Zest is not that huge macro player who used to predict in long games the moves and builds of his opponents. I think now at least he brought back finally his excellent execution style which is the only weapon that can use against Maru. I am a bit heartbroken because two of my favorite players didn't make it to the final in the Ro4. After what I saw against Classic, I can't imagine how anyone can beat Maru right now, but Zest is one of the best ever players in preparing for a specific matches. Let's hope the match will be epic because whoever wins, it will be a historical victory. Go Zest!
That was a stellar write up. I've only been following sc2 pro scene since early 2017 so I didn't know the history at all about maru and zest. I think Maru is the better part but zest has been surprising me all season, I'm cheering for zest and my bold prediction is 4-3 zest. Thanks for the sick write up!
I think Zest will have to be at his very best, and he'll have to have solid stuff prepared - but not the stuff Classic did. Swift kill moves, no proxy gateway into wonky transition stuff. Immortal/prism, SG/adept all in, that kinda thing. But I also think he stands a good chance in standard macro games if he doesn't take damage early. Patience almost 2-0'd Maru, including a SG/charge game that he should absolutely have won. Zest owns that build and if he gets into a similar spot he won't lose.
At the same time he has to have practiced responses to the various proxy nonsense that Maru loves. His defense against TY's wasn't good enough and Maru won't hesitate to throw them out if he smells any sort of weakness to them.
It's an uphill battle for Zest, but by no means impossible.
On June 22 2018 17:38 Olli wrote: I think Zest will have to be at his very best, and he'll have to have solid stuff prepared - but not the stuff Classic did. Swift kill moves, no proxy gateway into wonky transition stuff. Immortal/prism, SG/adept all in, that kinda thing. But I also think he stands a good chance in standard macro games if he doesn't take damage early. Patience almost 2-0'd Maru, including a SG/charge game that he should absolutely have won. Zest owns that build and if he gets into a similar spot he won't lose.
At the same time he has to have practiced responses to the various proxy nonsense that Maru loves. His defense against TY's wasn't good enough and Maru won't hesitate to throw them out if he smells any sort of weakness to them.
It's an uphill battle for Zest, but by no means impossible.
Mmm, yeah, baby, Oil is ready. And Olli is ready too, to blow up because of sweet love to Zest. Mmmm. It's good when you desire and it's so cool when you have feelings. Right?
1) I liked how clever Zest was with mixing in all-ins/aggressive builds against TY
2) Maru isn't as greedy as TY, but he has that 'great Terran' gene of making needlessly risky greed plays. I'm going to laugh when he auto loses a game because he places a CC directly at his natural or third in a situation where he could easily have just floated it.
On June 22 2018 22:08 Waxangel wrote: I like Zest to take 1~2 maps
1) I liked how clever Zest was with mixing in all-ins/aggressive builds against TY
2) Maru isn't as greedy as TY, but he has that 'great Terran' gene of making needlessly risky greed plays. I'm going to laugh when he auto loses a game because he places a CC directly at his natural or third in a situation where he could easily have just floated it.
Maru's play in recent times--his accurate reading of his opponents in preparation, his game sense, and his remarkable jump in "realism" (knowing what he can get away with and not thinking he can push it farther on the strengths of his micro alone)--leads me to think that this is unlikely to be how Maru goes down without some sOs-squared levels of trickery. But you never know, maybe he'll suddenly channel his old mentor MKP.
On June 22 2018 22:08 Waxangel wrote: I like Zest to take 1~2 maps
1) I liked how clever Zest was with mixing in all-ins/aggressive builds against TY
2) Maru isn't as greedy as TY, but he has that 'great Terran' gene of making needlessly risky greed plays. I'm going to laugh when he auto loses a game because he places a CC directly at his natural or third in a situation where he could easily have just floated it.
Maru's play in recent times--his accurate reading of his opponents in preparation, his game sense, and his remarkable jump in "realism" (knowing what he can get away with and not thinking he can push it farther on the strengths of his micro alone)--leads me to think that this is unlikely to be how Maru goes down without some sOs-squared levels of trickery. But you never know, maybe he'll suddenly channel his old mentor MKP.
People forget just how dominant Zest was back in 2014/2016.
He was so good that people thought that was the highest level of skill anyone could achieve in SC2. I still remember some of his games from back then where he just oozed of class and was just way above everyone at that time. Sort of like how Lebron James dominates everyone in the NBA.
Maru have been good at times and definitely this year, but i just don't get the same feeling of domination that i got when seeing Zest back in his prime.
No one dominates harder than Zest when he's in good form. But he hasn't exactly been in that form for a while.
Still though, counting him out completely isn't called for. If the Kingslayer was ever to return, it would be to take the throne from the reigning champ.
Maru 4-2 Zest, a nice safe prediction. The only real danger I see for Maru is if he lets arrogance get to him and slacks off.
Odd proxies and sharp timings will probably get Zest one win apiece, but I see macro games and his own aggression going Maru's way. He showed his mastery against Gateway/Storm in the semis, he made his name with Colossus snipes (against stronger Colossi, no less), and his entire multipronged micro-heavy style counters Disruptors cold. With sOs to help him out, I can't see Maru going on tilt from crazy cheese. Add all that to his own proxy craziness and Maru has literally all the bases covered.
Zest has a chance, of course, but it's an terribly slim chance. Peak Zest might be slightly favored against current Maru but current Zest is far from his best. As it stands now, Maru is stronger than TY while Zest is weaker than Classic–and Maru trounced Classic while Zest barely scraped by TY. As long as Maru keeps his cool and plays like the Maru we know and love, this trophy is his to lose.
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
They really don't though, but hey maybe if you add the Game Land Invitational it could be close
Along with a Ro8 at BlizzCon? Yeah I don't see how what Maru did 2016-17 was any better than Zest's results after his peak in early 2016.
Not that that is the point, though. Nobody in 16-17 considered Maru anywhere near a championship challenger, which for a player if his caliber qualifies as a slump. A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak doesn't change that.
"A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak" LOL how was Proleague incredibly weak? If Proleague was incredibly weak then GSL was incredibly weak as well.
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
They really don't though, but hey maybe if you add the Game Land Invitational it could be close
Along with a Ro8 at BlizzCon? Yeah I don't see how what Maru did 2016-17 was any better than Zest's results after his peak in early 2016.
Not that that is the point, though. Nobody in 16-17 considered Maru anywhere near a championship challenger, which for a player if his caliber qualifies as a slump. A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak doesn't change that.
"A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak" LOL how was Proleague incredibly weak? If Proleague was incredibly weak then GSL was incredibly weak as well.
Because a lot of good people were either not playing SC2 seriously (Rogue, herO for example), others were simply not good at LotV yet (Classic for example), the overall level of play in Proleague was awful as people knew it was ending and teams would be disbanding, a lot of good players had already retired. Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive. Zest's HSC runs actually had more games against really good players - GSL champion Gumiho, Solar, ByuN, soon-to-be IEM champion Scarlett, SSL champion Stats. All Bo5+.
I will take that over Bo1s against people like Blaze, Losira, etc. and a handful of good players in Bo1s every day.
As for GSL, it wasn't as weak, because bad players get eliminated, you know? That doesn't happen in PL.
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
They really don't though, but hey maybe if you add the Game Land Invitational it could be close
Along with a Ro8 at BlizzCon? Yeah I don't see how what Maru did 2016-17 was any better than Zest's results after his peak in early 2016.
Not that that is the point, though. Nobody in 16-17 considered Maru anywhere near a championship challenger, which for a player if his caliber qualifies as a slump. A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak doesn't change that.
"A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak" LOL how was Proleague incredibly weak? If Proleague was incredibly weak then GSL was incredibly weak as well.
Because a lot of good people were either not playing SC2 seriously (Rogue, herO for example), others were simply not good at LotV yet (Classic for example), the overall level of play in Proleague was awful as people knew it was ending and teams would be disbanding, a lot of good players had already retired. Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive. Zest's HSC runs actually had more games against really good players - GSL champion Gumiho, Solar, ByuN, soon-to-be IEM champion Scarlett, SSL champion Stats. All Bo5+.
I will take that over Bo1s against people like Blaze, Losira, etc. and a handful of good players in Bo1s every day.
As for GSL, it wasn't as weak, because bad players get eliminated, you know? That doesn't happen in PL.
"Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive." holy shit, you must be joking at this point...
He took out Dear, INno, TY x3, Stats x2, Dark, Zest, Solar, Gumiho, aLive, Classic, ByuL, Bunny x2, Myungsik, Leenock, and Losira. That includes almost the entire top 10 of WCS Korea (minus ByuN).
You simply cannot downplay proleague because of the supposed level of play, and then assume HSCs mean anything at all. HSC is not a serious premier event. No high level player prepares specifically for it, or for the opponents there. Players in proleague would be crying or dancing out of their seats after matches because it was an event of great importance, it was literally their job to perform there. Many times teams even forced players to practice for SPL over individual leagues.
I doubt the top players even care that much if they win or lose there, so to put it's ridiculous for fans to give it the same weighting as proleague or starleagues. To value HSC highly is to value the minor LANs and online cups highly. The fact that Zest won HSC while failing to qualify for a GSL is not something worth highlighting.
On June 21 2018 22:27 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Zest’s very opponent in this GSL final, Maru, has gone through a similarly deep slump as Zest, and look at him now.
I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
They really don't though, but hey maybe if you add the Game Land Invitational it could be close
Along with a Ro8 at BlizzCon? Yeah I don't see how what Maru did 2016-17 was any better than Zest's results after his peak in early 2016.
Not that that is the point, though. Nobody in 16-17 considered Maru anywhere near a championship challenger, which for a player if his caliber qualifies as a slump. A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak doesn't change that.
"A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak" LOL how was Proleague incredibly weak? If Proleague was incredibly weak then GSL was incredibly weak as well.
Because a lot of good people were either not playing SC2 seriously (Rogue, herO for example), others were simply not good at LotV yet (Classic for example), the overall level of play in Proleague was awful as people knew it was ending and teams would be disbanding, a lot of good players had already retired. Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive. Zest's HSC runs actually had more games against really good players - GSL champion Gumiho, Solar, ByuN, soon-to-be IEM champion Scarlett, SSL champion Stats. All Bo5+.
I will take that over Bo1s against people like Blaze, Losira, etc. and a handful of good players in Bo1s every day.
As for GSL, it wasn't as weak, because bad players get eliminated, you know? That doesn't happen in PL.
"Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive." holy shit, you must be joking at this point...
He took out Dear, INno, TY x3, Stats x2, Dark, Zest, Solar, Gumiho, aLive, Classic, ByuL, Bunny x2, Myungsik, Leenock, and Losira. That includes almost the entire top 10 of WCS Korea (minus ByuN).
You simply cannot downplay proleague because of the supposed level of play, and then assume HSCs mean anything at all. HSC is not a serious premier event. No high level player prepares specifically for it, or for the opponents there. Players in proleague would be crying or dancing out of their seats after matches because it was an event of great importance, it was literally their job to perform there. Many times teams even forced players to practice for SPL over individual leagues.
I doubt the top players even care that much if they win or lose there, so to put it's ridiculous for fans to give it the same weighting as proleague or starleagues. To value HSC highly is to value the minor LANs and online cups highly. The fact that Zest won HSC while failing to qualify for a GSL is not something worth highlighting.
The impressive names here are Zest, TY, Stats, Dark, Dear and Solar. That's exactly what I said. A handful of good players in Bo1s. Everyone else was bad.
I've been to four HSCs. If you think the Koreans don't take it seriously you're wrong. They go straight home after their matches and spend the entire event practicing until they're eliminated. Plus the level of play was much higher than it was in 2016 for reasons I have highlighted multiple times.
Anyway, you are still completely, 100% missing the point. Some guy tried to argue that Maru didn't go through a slump comparable to Zest's. Well, after his Proleague run Maru did literally nothing for the rest of 2016. And then did very little in 2017 too. He did a bit better than Zest in 2017, but also did very significantly worse in 2016. To suggest the two arent comparable is absurd.
Maru was at the top of the world in early 2015, Zest early 2016, then became weaker and weaker with poor performance at Blizzcon, like Zest, to finish 24th in the WCS ranking the year after and 20th for Zest.
On June 22 2018 00:46 Fango wrote: [quote] I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
They really don't though, but hey maybe if you add the Game Land Invitational it could be close
Along with a Ro8 at BlizzCon? Yeah I don't see how what Maru did 2016-17 was any better than Zest's results after his peak in early 2016.
Not that that is the point, though. Nobody in 16-17 considered Maru anywhere near a championship challenger, which for a player if his caliber qualifies as a slump. A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak doesn't change that.
"A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak" LOL how was Proleague incredibly weak? If Proleague was incredibly weak then GSL was incredibly weak as well.
Because a lot of good people were either not playing SC2 seriously (Rogue, herO for example), others were simply not good at LotV yet (Classic for example), the overall level of play in Proleague was awful as people knew it was ending and teams would be disbanding, a lot of good players had already retired. Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive. Zest's HSC runs actually had more games against really good players - GSL champion Gumiho, Solar, ByuN, soon-to-be IEM champion Scarlett, SSL champion Stats. All Bo5+.
I will take that over Bo1s against people like Blaze, Losira, etc. and a handful of good players in Bo1s every day.
As for GSL, it wasn't as weak, because bad players get eliminated, you know? That doesn't happen in PL.
"Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive." holy shit, you must be joking at this point...
He took out Dear, INno, TY x3, Stats x2, Dark, Zest, Solar, Gumiho, aLive, Classic, ByuL, Bunny x2, Myungsik, Leenock, and Losira. That includes almost the entire top 10 of WCS Korea (minus ByuN).
You simply cannot downplay proleague because of the supposed level of play, and then assume HSCs mean anything at all. HSC is not a serious premier event. No high level player prepares specifically for it, or for the opponents there. Players in proleague would be crying or dancing out of their seats after matches because it was an event of great importance, it was literally their job to perform there. Many times teams even forced players to practice for SPL over individual leagues.
I doubt the top players even care that much if they win or lose there, so to put it's ridiculous for fans to give it the same weighting as proleague or starleagues. To value HSC highly is to value the minor LANs and online cups highly. The fact that Zest won HSC while failing to qualify for a GSL is not something worth highlighting.
The impressive names here are Zest, TY, Stats, Dark, Dear and Solar. That's exactly what I said. A handful of good players in Bo1s. Everyone else was bad.
I've been to four HSCs. If you think the Koreans don't take it seriously you're wrong. They go straight home after their matches and spend the entire event practicing until they're eliminated. Plus the level of play was much higher than it was in 2016 for reasons I have highlighted multiple times.
Anyway, you are still completely, 100% missing the point. Some guy tried to argue that Maru didn't go through a slump comparable to Zest's. Well, after his Proleague run Maru did literally nothing for the rest of 2016. And then did very little in 2017 too. He did a bit better than Zest in 2017, but also did very significantly worse in 2016. To suggest the two arent comparable is absurd.
Even if you don't seem to consider Proleague to be important, the players definitely did and that's what counts. For them it was just as important as a Starleague and having the best run in SC2 history is certainly not "nothing". It's easily as impressive as winning a GSL. Also Classic, aLive, Gumiho and Inno were certainly not bad lol.
Just popped in to say my boy Maru is absolutely going to roll over Zest just like he did in the previous season finals vs Stats, and the most recent Protoss victim Classic (who's PvT just so happens to be much much better/convincing than Zests).
Zest has great killer instincts and Protoss's strength vs T may have carried him against an overly passive Ty, but he does not have the multi-tasking or macro to withstand Maru's mid-late game aggression. (Does any other korean protoss consistently float 2k+ minerals with idle warpgates as much as Zest?)
Sure, he will pick up 1 or 2 bullshit wins with early game damage, but I don't see how he could possibly win 4 games given Maru's current form.
On June 23 2018 09:36 Togekiss wrote: Just popped in to say my boy Maru is absolutely going to roll over Zest just like he did in the previous season finals vs Stats, and the most recent Protoss victim Classic (who's PvT just so happens to be much much better/convincing than Zests).
Classic's PvT is more convincing than Zest's because Zest plays in a lot more tournaments and thus has more opportunities to lose. Zest is undefeated in offline series in 2018 against South Korean Terrans like Classic was prior to his semi-final loss.
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
They really don't though, but hey maybe if you add the Game Land Invitational it could be close
Along with a Ro8 at BlizzCon? Yeah I don't see how what Maru did 2016-17 was any better than Zest's results after his peak in early 2016.
Not that that is the point, though. Nobody in 16-17 considered Maru anywhere near a championship challenger, which for a player if his caliber qualifies as a slump. A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak doesn't change that.
"A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak" LOL how was Proleague incredibly weak? If Proleague was incredibly weak then GSL was incredibly weak as well.
Because a lot of good people were either not playing SC2 seriously (Rogue, herO for example), others were simply not good at LotV yet (Classic for example), the overall level of play in Proleague was awful as people knew it was ending and teams would be disbanding, a lot of good players had already retired. Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive. Zest's HSC runs actually had more games against really good players - GSL champion Gumiho, Solar, ByuN, soon-to-be IEM champion Scarlett, SSL champion Stats. All Bo5+.
I will take that over Bo1s against people like Blaze, Losira, etc. and a handful of good players in Bo1s every day.
As for GSL, it wasn't as weak, because bad players get eliminated, you know? That doesn't happen in PL.
"Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive." holy shit, you must be joking at this point...
He took out Dear, INno, TY x3, Stats x2, Dark, Zest, Solar, Gumiho, aLive, Classic, ByuL, Bunny x2, Myungsik, Leenock, and Losira. That includes almost the entire top 10 of WCS Korea (minus ByuN).
You simply cannot downplay proleague because of the supposed level of play, and then assume HSCs mean anything at all. HSC is not a serious premier event. No high level player prepares specifically for it, or for the opponents there. Players in proleague would be crying or dancing out of their seats after matches because it was an event of great importance, it was literally their job to perform there. Many times teams even forced players to practice for SPL over individual leagues.
I doubt the top players even care that much if they win or lose there, so to put it's ridiculous for fans to give it the same weighting as proleague or starleagues. To value HSC highly is to value the minor LANs and online cups highly. The fact that Zest won HSC while failing to qualify for a GSL is not something worth highlighting.
The impressive names here are Zest, TY, Stats, Dark, Dear and Solar. That's exactly what I said. A handful of good players in Bo1s. Everyone else was bad.
I've been to four HSCs. If you think the Koreans don't take it seriously you're wrong. They go straight home after their matches and spend the entire event practicing until they're eliminated. Plus the level of play was much higher than it was in 2016 for reasons I have highlighted multiple times.
Anyway, you are still completely, 100% missing the point. Some guy tried to argue that Maru didn't go through a slump comparable to Zest's. Well, after his Proleague run Maru did literally nothing for the rest of 2016. And then did very little in 2017 too. He did a bit better than Zest in 2017, but also did very significantly worse in 2016. To suggest the two arent comparable is absurd.
Even if you don't seem to consider Proleague to be important, the players definitely did and that's what counts. For them it was just as important as a Starleague and having the best run in SC2 history is certainly not "nothing". It's easily as impressive as winning a GSL. Also Classic, aLive, Gumiho and Inno were certainly not bad lol.
The fact that you think beating INnoVation in 2016 means anything tells me what I need to know.
Well, Maru and Zest will settle the issue in person soon enough.
Seriously, all the dick-measuring-by-proxy can get really tedious around here. I'm guilty of it myself, to be fair, but I stopped as of 2018. It's really not that hard to stop flinging shit on the internet. Small steps, people.
On June 22 2018 13:34 zealotstim wrote: Anyone who expects a 4-0 is seriously underestimating of of these players.
Now the 4-0 for Maru that many expected happened though, I don't think it was a bold prediction.
It is 4-0 in prediction and in reality but I don't think the writer expected this kind of "4-0". It took 33 mins for Maru to get this 4-0. Normally, with that amount of time, we should be at 2-0 max in GSL Final.
On June 23 2018 19:02 Vutalisk wrote:It took 33 mins for Maru to get this 4-0. Normally, with that amount of time, we should be at 2-0 max in GSL Final.
There should be a deal where if a final is shorter than 1h:30 (production reels and all) they'll also stream a caster FFA or dare the 3rd or 4th placed players to cheese the champion for a 2% part of his winnings; all in good fun that is.
On June 22 2018 00:46 Fango wrote: [quote] I don't think Maru is that great an example here. 2017 was his worst year since wol, but he still had respectable results (gsl ro4/8, wesg silver).
In comparison, Zest last year was borderline irrelevent in premier events. And while his current form is undeniably much better, he doesn't appear to be rivaling his peaks of the past. The only recovery similar to Zest potentially winning GSL would be INno's transition from 2016 > 2017.
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
They really don't though, but hey maybe if you add the Game Land Invitational it could be close
Along with a Ro8 at BlizzCon? Yeah I don't see how what Maru did 2016-17 was any better than Zest's results after his peak in early 2016.
Not that that is the point, though. Nobody in 16-17 considered Maru anywhere near a championship challenger, which for a player if his caliber qualifies as a slump. A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak doesn't change that.
"A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak" LOL how was Proleague incredibly weak? If Proleague was incredibly weak then GSL was incredibly weak as well.
Because a lot of good people were either not playing SC2 seriously (Rogue, herO for example), others were simply not good at LotV yet (Classic for example), the overall level of play in Proleague was awful as people knew it was ending and teams would be disbanding, a lot of good players had already retired. Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive. Zest's HSC runs actually had more games against really good players - GSL champion Gumiho, Solar, ByuN, soon-to-be IEM champion Scarlett, SSL champion Stats. All Bo5+.
I will take that over Bo1s against people like Blaze, Losira, etc. and a handful of good players in Bo1s every day.
As for GSL, it wasn't as weak, because bad players get eliminated, you know? That doesn't happen in PL.
"Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive." holy shit, you must be joking at this point...
He took out Dear, INno, TY x3, Stats x2, Dark, Zest, Solar, Gumiho, aLive, Classic, ByuL, Bunny x2, Myungsik, Leenock, and Losira. That includes almost the entire top 10 of WCS Korea (minus ByuN).
You simply cannot downplay proleague because of the supposed level of play, and then assume HSCs mean anything at all. HSC is not a serious premier event. No high level player prepares specifically for it, or for the opponents there. Players in proleague would be crying or dancing out of their seats after matches because it was an event of great importance, it was literally their job to perform there. Many times teams even forced players to practice for SPL over individual leagues.
I doubt the top players even care that much if they win or lose there, so to put it's ridiculous for fans to give it the same weighting as proleague or starleagues. To value HSC highly is to value the minor LANs and online cups highly. The fact that Zest won HSC while failing to qualify for a GSL is not something worth highlighting.
The impressive names here are Zest, TY, Stats, Dark, Dear and Solar. That's exactly what I said. A handful of good players in Bo1s. Everyone else was bad.
I've been to four HSCs. If you think the Koreans don't take it seriously you're wrong. They go straight home after their matches and spend the entire event practicing until they're eliminated. Plus the level of play was much higher than it was in 2016 for reasons I have highlighted multiple times.
Anyway, you are still completely, 100% missing the point. Some guy tried to argue that Maru didn't go through a slump comparable to Zest's. Well, after his Proleague run Maru did literally nothing for the rest of 2016. And then did very little in 2017 too. He did a bit better than Zest in 2017, but also did very significantly worse in 2016. To suggest the two arent comparable is absurd.
The impressive names are literally every good player in korea minus ByuN. You can't call Gumiho, aLive, Classic, Myungsik etc bad when they were making ro8/ro4 in starleagues. And even INno was good in proleague.
As far as the original point goes, I think Zest and Maru both had amazing 2016s. Zest winning GSL and Maru having the best proleague run ever. In fact in terms of map score they were similar, 19-3 and 22-4. And in terms of opponents Maru played more maps against elite players.
However neither did anything amazing in 2017, it was a slump year for both of them. And Maru did better in every korean tournament. To me (and I would assume the players), those are the events that really matter. 5-4 in SSL and ro4 in GSL, those are good results. Zest went 1-9 in SSL and his peak was GSL ro32, that is significantly worse. I love HSC, but it can't make up for lacking results in real championships.
On June 23 2018 10:03 JimmyJRaynor wrote: The UFC altered the starting time of their event so it comes on at 8 AM EST right after the GSL event is over.
Its was short because Maru chose fast strategies and didnt let Zest reach mid game with aoe. If it was a 0-4 with macro games would have it been any better for zest? No.
On June 24 2018 03:20 Shathe wrote: Its was short because Maru chose fast strategies and didnt let Zest reach mid game with aoe. If it was a 0-4 with macro games would have it been any better for zest? No.
Are you serious? This is Maru. He is known for dropping left and right. At this high-level of TvP, either side will try to attack no matter what. No one will turtle at home. If they can't kill each other off then it will carry on to mid/late game. I mean game was mid-game, Zest had disruptors.
On June 24 2018 03:20 Shathe wrote: Its was short because Maru chose fast strategies and didnt let Zest reach mid game with aoe. If it was a 0-4 with macro games would have it been any better for zest? No.
Are you serious? This is Maru. He is known for dropping left and right. At this high-level of TvP, either side will try to attack no matter what. No one will turtle at home. If they can't kill each other off then it will carry on to mid/late game. I mean game was mid-game, Zest had disruptors.
Maru's game is to stop them before the storms come out. He was successful in all that.
EPT
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