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So I'm just wondering why do people care if Scalett/NoRegreT are allowed to play and qualify if they are doing the same thing TRUE is doing they legit live there all year. 0_0
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On December 28 2017 06:09 SNSeigifried wrote:
So I'm just wondering why do people care if Scalett/NoRegreT are allowed to play and qualify if they are doing the same thing TRUE is doing they legit live there all year. 0_0
Because they still participate in WCS events, which all the Koreans cannot. By staying in Korea as foreigners, they can play in both the GSL and still fly out and play in foreign events as well–the exact situation that Koreans are explicitly forbidden to do via region-locking. I do not know whether Blizzard intended this loophole to be present in the region-lock, but the situation as it stands is such that foreigners can and do participate in every tournament while Koreans cannot, simply by virtue of nationality.
It is an irrefutable fact that the current system is unfair (when considered in a vacuum). The question is whether or not it is justified (by historical precedent, skill differential, etc, etc). At its root, the concept is basically the same as affirmative action, with all the same controversy therein.
EDIT: Well, at least Scarlett, Major, etc do this. I haven't heard of Noregret in any of the WCS events so I'm not sure what he does.
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On December 28 2017 05:10 RCCar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2017 04:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 03:15 deacon.frost wrote:
I will write it. I'm salty AF because 3 foreigners took places for 3 ro32 material Koreans WHO CANNOT ATTEND ABROAD to try their luck there.
I don't care how. I'm just pissed. No matter the fact that Maru and $O$ made it. Sure they can. Just obtain a visa in any of the WCS regions and live there. For the longest time, that's what foreigners had to do to be the best and survive in the SC2 environment. Foreigners would come and train in Korea. So when the Korean opportunities are more limited, they should have to make the effort to go to a WCS region and live there and see if they can succeed. Honestly, if they can't make it here, I seriously doubt they would do that well in any other region. Getting a visa isn't that easy... you can't just be like "Well hop on a flight to America where you know no english and have no connections whatsoever- no visa? Just get it"
They don't have to get a visa to America; they can get a visa to anywhere in Europe or any other WCS region.
See, people expected this of foreigners a couple years ago in WoL and HotS. Everyone knew that if you wanted to do well, you trained in Korea. Regardless of the difficulties of doing this, these were the expectations. Right now, the foreigners who qualified for the GSL are currently living there, and many have lived there for several months.
Therefore, I see nothing wrong if this is what is expected of potential Korean players who want more opportunities outside the GSL. By its nature, the GSL is region locked by the fact that you have to live there for the duration of when you compete. So if you want an "easier" region (America or Europe or SEA), then you should live there.
And the thing is, my opinion may seem harsh, but unregionlocking WCS would do nothing to the amateur Korean players, as the people who would qualify are those who already do well in the GSL.
EDIT: the only way this would be "fair" is if Blizzard let amateur Koreans compete in the WCS but continued to disallow the top Koreans.
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On December 28 2017 06:29 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2017 05:10 RCCar wrote:On December 28 2017 04:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 03:15 deacon.frost wrote:
I will write it. I'm salty AF because 3 foreigners took places for 3 ro32 material Koreans WHO CANNOT ATTEND ABROAD to try their luck there.
I don't care how. I'm just pissed. No matter the fact that Maru and $O$ made it. Sure they can. Just obtain a visa in any of the WCS regions and live there. For the longest time, that's what foreigners had to do to be the best and survive in the SC2 environment. Foreigners would come and train in Korea. So when the Korean opportunities are more limited, they should have to make the effort to go to a WCS region and live there and see if they can succeed. Honestly, if they can't make it here, I seriously doubt they would do that well in any other region. Getting a visa isn't that easy... you can't just be like "Well hop on a flight to America where you know no english and have no connections whatsoever- no visa? Just get it" They don't have to get a visa to America; they can get a visa to anywhere in Europe or any other WCS region. See, people expected this of foreigners a couple years ago in WoL and HotS. Everyone knew that if you wanted to do well, you trained in Korea. Regardless of the difficulties of doing this, these were the expectations. Right now, the foreigners who qualified for the GSL are currently living there, and many have lived there for several months. Therefore, I see nothing wrong if this is what is expected of potential Korean players who want more opportunities outside the GSL. By its nature, the GSL is region locked by the fact that you have to live there for the duration of when you compete. So if you want an "easier" region (America or Europe or SEA), then you should live there. And the thing is, my opinion may seem harsh, but unregionlocking WCS would do nothing to the amateur Korean players, as the people who would qualify are those who already do well in the GSL. EDIT: the only way this would be "fair" is if Blizzard let amateur Koreans compete in the WCS but continued to disallow the top Koreans.
That might indeed be fair, but it would only exacerbate the inequality inherent in region-locking. As it stands we have a theoretically fair but unequal system, which is made unfair by the loophole of foreigners living in Korea.
I'm talking about fairness as an abstract concept, and disregarding the very real need to consider the context. Region-lock might be necessary because of the context, to promote fairness, but by its very definition it is not equal.
The crux of the issue here is the same as the one with affirmative action: Fair or Equal?
EDIT: Fixed the confusion between definitions of "fair" and "equal"
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On December 28 2017 06:38 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2017 06:29 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 05:10 RCCar wrote:On December 28 2017 04:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 03:15 deacon.frost wrote:
I will write it. I'm salty AF because 3 foreigners took places for 3 ro32 material Koreans WHO CANNOT ATTEND ABROAD to try their luck there.
I don't care how. I'm just pissed. No matter the fact that Maru and $O$ made it. Sure they can. Just obtain a visa in any of the WCS regions and live there. For the longest time, that's what foreigners had to do to be the best and survive in the SC2 environment. Foreigners would come and train in Korea. So when the Korean opportunities are more limited, they should have to make the effort to go to a WCS region and live there and see if they can succeed. Honestly, if they can't make it here, I seriously doubt they would do that well in any other region. Getting a visa isn't that easy... you can't just be like "Well hop on a flight to America where you know no english and have no connections whatsoever- no visa? Just get it" They don't have to get a visa to America; they can get a visa to anywhere in Europe or any other WCS region. See, people expected this of foreigners a couple years ago in WoL and HotS. Everyone knew that if you wanted to do well, you trained in Korea. Regardless of the difficulties of doing this, these were the expectations. Right now, the foreigners who qualified for the GSL are currently living there, and many have lived there for several months. Therefore, I see nothing wrong if this is what is expected of potential Korean players who want more opportunities outside the GSL. By its nature, the GSL is region locked by the fact that you have to live there for the duration of when you compete. So if you want an "easier" region (America or Europe or SEA), then you should live there. And the thing is, my opinion may seem harsh, but unregionlocking WCS would do nothing to the amateur Korean players, as the people who would qualify are those who already do well in the GSL. EDIT: the only way this would be "fair" is if Blizzard let amateur Koreans compete in the WCS but continued to disallow the top Koreans. That would not be fair in any way. Fair would be what we had before region-lock, when every tournament was open to anyone who showed up. It would however be equal, or at least more equal than both the current system and the pre-region-lock system. I'm talking about fairness as an abstract concept, and disregarding the very real need to consider the context. Region-lock might be necessary because of the context, to promote equality, but by its very definition it is not fair. The crux of the issue here is the same as the one with affirmative action: Fair or Equal?
I think that on a conceptual level of "fair" and "equal," context has to be taken into account. The system we had with no region lock was neither fair nor equal because the context of Koreans having the system and the culture to produce better players created an unequal and unfair competitive advantage for just a blanket completely open tournament scene.
I would posit that what is fair and equal depends on the context in which we are talking fairness and equality.
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On December 28 2017 06:46 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2017 06:38 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 06:29 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 05:10 RCCar wrote:On December 28 2017 04:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 03:15 deacon.frost wrote:
I will write it. I'm salty AF because 3 foreigners took places for 3 ro32 material Koreans WHO CANNOT ATTEND ABROAD to try their luck there.
I don't care how. I'm just pissed. No matter the fact that Maru and $O$ made it. Sure they can. Just obtain a visa in any of the WCS regions and live there. For the longest time, that's what foreigners had to do to be the best and survive in the SC2 environment. Foreigners would come and train in Korea. So when the Korean opportunities are more limited, they should have to make the effort to go to a WCS region and live there and see if they can succeed. Honestly, if they can't make it here, I seriously doubt they would do that well in any other region. Getting a visa isn't that easy... you can't just be like "Well hop on a flight to America where you know no english and have no connections whatsoever- no visa? Just get it" They don't have to get a visa to America; they can get a visa to anywhere in Europe or any other WCS region. See, people expected this of foreigners a couple years ago in WoL and HotS. Everyone knew that if you wanted to do well, you trained in Korea. Regardless of the difficulties of doing this, these were the expectations. Right now, the foreigners who qualified for the GSL are currently living there, and many have lived there for several months. Therefore, I see nothing wrong if this is what is expected of potential Korean players who want more opportunities outside the GSL. By its nature, the GSL is region locked by the fact that you have to live there for the duration of when you compete. So if you want an "easier" region (America or Europe or SEA), then you should live there. And the thing is, my opinion may seem harsh, but unregionlocking WCS would do nothing to the amateur Korean players, as the people who would qualify are those who already do well in the GSL. EDIT: the only way this would be "fair" is if Blizzard let amateur Koreans compete in the WCS but continued to disallow the top Koreans. That would not be fair in any way. Fair would be what we had before region-lock, when every tournament was open to anyone who showed up. It would however be equal, or at least more equal than both the current system and the pre-region-lock system. I'm talking about fairness as an abstract concept, and disregarding the very real need to consider the context. Region-lock might be necessary because of the context, to promote equality, but by its very definition it is not fair. The crux of the issue here is the same as the one with affirmative action: Fair or Equal? I think that on a conceptual level of "fair" and "equal," context has to be taken into account.
I just edited my post because I mixed up the definitions of "fair" and "equal."
Fair meaning that everyone gets what they need and equal that everyone gets the same.
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On December 28 2017 06:49 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2017 06:46 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 06:38 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 06:29 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 05:10 RCCar wrote:On December 28 2017 04:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 03:15 deacon.frost wrote:
I will write it. I'm salty AF because 3 foreigners took places for 3 ro32 material Koreans WHO CANNOT ATTEND ABROAD to try their luck there.
I don't care how. I'm just pissed. No matter the fact that Maru and $O$ made it. Sure they can. Just obtain a visa in any of the WCS regions and live there. For the longest time, that's what foreigners had to do to be the best and survive in the SC2 environment. Foreigners would come and train in Korea. So when the Korean opportunities are more limited, they should have to make the effort to go to a WCS region and live there and see if they can succeed. Honestly, if they can't make it here, I seriously doubt they would do that well in any other region. Getting a visa isn't that easy... you can't just be like "Well hop on a flight to America where you know no english and have no connections whatsoever- no visa? Just get it" They don't have to get a visa to America; they can get a visa to anywhere in Europe or any other WCS region. See, people expected this of foreigners a couple years ago in WoL and HotS. Everyone knew that if you wanted to do well, you trained in Korea. Regardless of the difficulties of doing this, these were the expectations. Right now, the foreigners who qualified for the GSL are currently living there, and many have lived there for several months. Therefore, I see nothing wrong if this is what is expected of potential Korean players who want more opportunities outside the GSL. By its nature, the GSL is region locked by the fact that you have to live there for the duration of when you compete. So if you want an "easier" region (America or Europe or SEA), then you should live there. And the thing is, my opinion may seem harsh, but unregionlocking WCS would do nothing to the amateur Korean players, as the people who would qualify are those who already do well in the GSL. EDIT: the only way this would be "fair" is if Blizzard let amateur Koreans compete in the WCS but continued to disallow the top Koreans. That would not be fair in any way. Fair would be what we had before region-lock, when every tournament was open to anyone who showed up. It would however be equal, or at least more equal than both the current system and the pre-region-lock system. I'm talking about fairness as an abstract concept, and disregarding the very real need to consider the context. Region-lock might be necessary because of the context, to promote equality, but by its very definition it is not fair. The crux of the issue here is the same as the one with affirmative action: Fair or Equal? I think that on a conceptual level of "fair" and "equal," context has to be taken into account. I just edited my post because I mixed up the definitions of "fair" and "equal." Fair meaning that everyone gets what they need and equal that everyone gets the same.
For instance with affirmative action, the debate is between equal opportunity or equal fairness, but I would say that the two concepts are interlinked.
If something is fair, does that mean that something is unequal? Or if something is equal, does that mean that something is unfair?
With the Korean scene, we have the unique problem of having an inferior lower scene but a massively superior upper scene. Whereas for the foreigners, there's a steady range of okay to good to great foreigners.
So what is equal and fair to the top of the Korean scene is not equal and fair to the bottom of the Korean scene.
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On December 28 2017 06:46 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2017 06:38 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 06:29 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 05:10 RCCar wrote:On December 28 2017 04:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 03:15 deacon.frost wrote:
I will write it. I'm salty AF because 3 foreigners took places for 3 ro32 material Koreans WHO CANNOT ATTEND ABROAD to try their luck there.
I don't care how. I'm just pissed. No matter the fact that Maru and $O$ made it. Sure they can. Just obtain a visa in any of the WCS regions and live there. For the longest time, that's what foreigners had to do to be the best and survive in the SC2 environment. Foreigners would come and train in Korea. So when the Korean opportunities are more limited, they should have to make the effort to go to a WCS region and live there and see if they can succeed. Honestly, if they can't make it here, I seriously doubt they would do that well in any other region. Getting a visa isn't that easy... you can't just be like "Well hop on a flight to America where you know no english and have no connections whatsoever- no visa? Just get it" They don't have to get a visa to America; they can get a visa to anywhere in Europe or any other WCS region. See, people expected this of foreigners a couple years ago in WoL and HotS. Everyone knew that if you wanted to do well, you trained in Korea. Regardless of the difficulties of doing this, these were the expectations. Right now, the foreigners who qualified for the GSL are currently living there, and many have lived there for several months. Therefore, I see nothing wrong if this is what is expected of potential Korean players who want more opportunities outside the GSL. By its nature, the GSL is region locked by the fact that you have to live there for the duration of when you compete. So if you want an "easier" region (America or Europe or SEA), then you should live there. And the thing is, my opinion may seem harsh, but unregionlocking WCS would do nothing to the amateur Korean players, as the people who would qualify are those who already do well in the GSL. EDIT: the only way this would be "fair" is if Blizzard let amateur Koreans compete in the WCS but continued to disallow the top Koreans. That would not be fair in any way. Fair would be what we had before region-lock, when every tournament was open to anyone who showed up. It would however be equal, or at least more equal than both the current system and the pre-region-lock system. I'm talking about fairness as an abstract concept, and disregarding the very real need to consider the context. Region-lock might be necessary because of the context, to promote equality, but by its very definition it is not fair. The crux of the issue here is the same as the one with affirmative action: Fair or Equal? The system we had with no region lock was neither fair nor equal because the context of Koreans having the system and the culture to produce better players created an unequal and unfair competitive advantage for just a blanket completely open tournament scene. I would posit that what is fair and equal depends on the context in which we are talking fairness and equality.
The context here I think is what lies within the reasonable capacity of an individual player to influence through their own agency. It is unreasonable to punish players based on their country of birth, something over which they have no control.
That being the case, the old system was indeed equal because all players regardless of background had identical opportunity. However, it was unfair due to the inherent advantages of Korean progaming infrastructure.
Region-lock swapped this by making the system fair but unequal, in that foreigners received help (Koreans were banned) which allowed the foreign scene to develop, but at the cost of inequality–treating players differently based on their country of origin.
Region-lock then became both unfair and unequal in the specific case of foreigners living in Korea. Players like Scarlett, Major, etc, are effectively exploiting the best of both worlds by both playing in GSL like the Koreans and playing in WCS events like foreigners.
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On December 28 2017 06:54 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2017 06:49 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 06:46 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 06:38 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 06:29 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 05:10 RCCar wrote:On December 28 2017 04:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 03:15 deacon.frost wrote:
I will write it. I'm salty AF because 3 foreigners took places for 3 ro32 material Koreans WHO CANNOT ATTEND ABROAD to try their luck there.
I don't care how. I'm just pissed. No matter the fact that Maru and $O$ made it. Sure they can. Just obtain a visa in any of the WCS regions and live there. For the longest time, that's what foreigners had to do to be the best and survive in the SC2 environment. Foreigners would come and train in Korea. So when the Korean opportunities are more limited, they should have to make the effort to go to a WCS region and live there and see if they can succeed. Honestly, if they can't make it here, I seriously doubt they would do that well in any other region. Getting a visa isn't that easy... you can't just be like "Well hop on a flight to America where you know no english and have no connections whatsoever- no visa? Just get it" They don't have to get a visa to America; they can get a visa to anywhere in Europe or any other WCS region. See, people expected this of foreigners a couple years ago in WoL and HotS. Everyone knew that if you wanted to do well, you trained in Korea. Regardless of the difficulties of doing this, these were the expectations. Right now, the foreigners who qualified for the GSL are currently living there, and many have lived there for several months. Therefore, I see nothing wrong if this is what is expected of potential Korean players who want more opportunities outside the GSL. By its nature, the GSL is region locked by the fact that you have to live there for the duration of when you compete. So if you want an "easier" region (America or Europe or SEA), then you should live there. And the thing is, my opinion may seem harsh, but unregionlocking WCS would do nothing to the amateur Korean players, as the people who would qualify are those who already do well in the GSL. EDIT: the only way this would be "fair" is if Blizzard let amateur Koreans compete in the WCS but continued to disallow the top Koreans. That would not be fair in any way. Fair would be what we had before region-lock, when every tournament was open to anyone who showed up. It would however be equal, or at least more equal than both the current system and the pre-region-lock system. I'm talking about fairness as an abstract concept, and disregarding the very real need to consider the context. Region-lock might be necessary because of the context, to promote equality, but by its very definition it is not fair. The crux of the issue here is the same as the one with affirmative action: Fair or Equal? I think that on a conceptual level of "fair" and "equal," context has to be taken into account. I just edited my post because I mixed up the definitions of "fair" and "equal." Fair meaning that everyone gets what they need and equal that everyone gets the same. For instance with affirmative action, the debate is between equal opportunity or equal fairness, but I would say that the two concepts are interlinked. If something is fair, does that mean that something is unequal? Or if something is equal, does that mean that something is unfair? With the Korean scene, we have the unique problem of having an inferior lower scene but a massively superior upper scene. Whereas for the foreigners, there's a steady range of okay to good to great foreigners. So what is equal and fair to the top of the Korean scene is not equal and fair to the bottom of the Korean scene.
Fairness is not inherently unequal, nor vice versa. At least in an abstract sense.
Real life, however, is both unfair and unequal by its very nature. In an artificial competitive environment like university admissions or professional gaming, either fairness or equality can be enforced (to a reasonable extent) but at the cost of the inequality or unfairness, respectively.
What do you mean by "equal fairness?" I am not familiar with the term.
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On December 28 2017 06:57 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2017 06:46 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 06:38 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 06:29 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 05:10 RCCar wrote:On December 28 2017 04:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 03:15 deacon.frost wrote:
I will write it. I'm salty AF because 3 foreigners took places for 3 ro32 material Koreans WHO CANNOT ATTEND ABROAD to try their luck there.
I don't care how. I'm just pissed. No matter the fact that Maru and $O$ made it. Sure they can. Just obtain a visa in any of the WCS regions and live there. For the longest time, that's what foreigners had to do to be the best and survive in the SC2 environment. Foreigners would come and train in Korea. So when the Korean opportunities are more limited, they should have to make the effort to go to a WCS region and live there and see if they can succeed. Honestly, if they can't make it here, I seriously doubt they would do that well in any other region. Getting a visa isn't that easy... you can't just be like "Well hop on a flight to America where you know no english and have no connections whatsoever- no visa? Just get it" They don't have to get a visa to America; they can get a visa to anywhere in Europe or any other WCS region. See, people expected this of foreigners a couple years ago in WoL and HotS. Everyone knew that if you wanted to do well, you trained in Korea. Regardless of the difficulties of doing this, these were the expectations. Right now, the foreigners who qualified for the GSL are currently living there, and many have lived there for several months. Therefore, I see nothing wrong if this is what is expected of potential Korean players who want more opportunities outside the GSL. By its nature, the GSL is region locked by the fact that you have to live there for the duration of when you compete. So if you want an "easier" region (America or Europe or SEA), then you should live there. And the thing is, my opinion may seem harsh, but unregionlocking WCS would do nothing to the amateur Korean players, as the people who would qualify are those who already do well in the GSL. EDIT: the only way this would be "fair" is if Blizzard let amateur Koreans compete in the WCS but continued to disallow the top Koreans. That would not be fair in any way. Fair would be what we had before region-lock, when every tournament was open to anyone who showed up. It would however be equal, or at least more equal than both the current system and the pre-region-lock system. I'm talking about fairness as an abstract concept, and disregarding the very real need to consider the context. Region-lock might be necessary because of the context, to promote equality, but by its very definition it is not fair. The crux of the issue here is the same as the one with affirmative action: Fair or Equal? The system we had with no region lock was neither fair nor equal because the context of Koreans having the system and the culture to produce better players created an unequal and unfair competitive advantage for just a blanket completely open tournament scene. I would posit that what is fair and equal depends on the context in which we are talking fairness and equality. The context here I think is what lies within the reasonable capacity of an individual player to influence through their own agency. It is unreasonable to punish players based on their country of birth, something over which they have no control. That being the case, the old system was indeed equal because all players regardless of background had identical opportunity. However, it was unfair due to the inherent advantages of Korean progaming infrastructure. Region-lock swapped this by making the system fair but unequal, in that foreigners received help (Koreans were banned) which allowed the foreign scene to develop, but at the cost of inequality–treating players differently based on their country of origin. Region-lock then became both unfair and unequal in the specific case of foreigners living in Korea. Players like Scarlett, Major, etc, are effectively exploiting the best of both worlds by both playing in GSL like the Koreans and playing in WCS events like foreigners.
I would argue that the old scene was both unfair and unequal. Based on their locations of birth, people born in Korea intrinsically had a greater opportunity because of the GSL and because of their culture, which fostered the gaming mentality and attitude. Also, their ladder was stronger.
EDIT: I think you could also make the argument that TRUE exploits the same opportunity by competing in both Korea and in the WCS.
I actually forgot the two terms that people used. It was equal opportunity and something else...
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On December 28 2017 07:00 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2017 06:57 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 06:46 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 06:38 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 06:29 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 05:10 RCCar wrote:On December 28 2017 04:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 03:15 deacon.frost wrote:
I will write it. I'm salty AF because 3 foreigners took places for 3 ro32 material Koreans WHO CANNOT ATTEND ABROAD to try their luck there.
I don't care how. I'm just pissed. No matter the fact that Maru and $O$ made it. Sure they can. Just obtain a visa in any of the WCS regions and live there. For the longest time, that's what foreigners had to do to be the best and survive in the SC2 environment. Foreigners would come and train in Korea. So when the Korean opportunities are more limited, they should have to make the effort to go to a WCS region and live there and see if they can succeed. Honestly, if they can't make it here, I seriously doubt they would do that well in any other region. Getting a visa isn't that easy... you can't just be like "Well hop on a flight to America where you know no english and have no connections whatsoever- no visa? Just get it" They don't have to get a visa to America; they can get a visa to anywhere in Europe or any other WCS region. See, people expected this of foreigners a couple years ago in WoL and HotS. Everyone knew that if you wanted to do well, you trained in Korea. Regardless of the difficulties of doing this, these were the expectations. Right now, the foreigners who qualified for the GSL are currently living there, and many have lived there for several months. Therefore, I see nothing wrong if this is what is expected of potential Korean players who want more opportunities outside the GSL. By its nature, the GSL is region locked by the fact that you have to live there for the duration of when you compete. So if you want an "easier" region (America or Europe or SEA), then you should live there. And the thing is, my opinion may seem harsh, but unregionlocking WCS would do nothing to the amateur Korean players, as the people who would qualify are those who already do well in the GSL. EDIT: the only way this would be "fair" is if Blizzard let amateur Koreans compete in the WCS but continued to disallow the top Koreans. That would not be fair in any way. Fair would be what we had before region-lock, when every tournament was open to anyone who showed up. It would however be equal, or at least more equal than both the current system and the pre-region-lock system. I'm talking about fairness as an abstract concept, and disregarding the very real need to consider the context. Region-lock might be necessary because of the context, to promote equality, but by its very definition it is not fair. The crux of the issue here is the same as the one with affirmative action: Fair or Equal? The system we had with no region lock was neither fair nor equal because the context of Koreans having the system and the culture to produce better players created an unequal and unfair competitive advantage for just a blanket completely open tournament scene. I would posit that what is fair and equal depends on the context in which we are talking fairness and equality. The context here I think is what lies within the reasonable capacity of an individual player to influence through their own agency. It is unreasonable to punish players based on their country of birth, something over which they have no control. That being the case, the old system was indeed equal because all players regardless of background had identical opportunity. However, it was unfair due to the inherent advantages of Korean progaming infrastructure. Region-lock swapped this by making the system fair but unequal, in that foreigners received help (Koreans were banned) which allowed the foreign scene to develop, but at the cost of inequality–treating players differently based on their country of origin. Region-lock then became both unfair and unequal in the specific case of foreigners living in Korea. Players like Scarlett, Major, etc, are effectively exploiting the best of both worlds by both playing in GSL like the Koreans and playing in WCS events like foreigners. I would argue that the old scene was both unfair and unequal. Based on their locations of birth, people born in Korea intrinsically had a greater opportunity because of the GSL and because of their culture, which fostered the gaming mentality and attitude. Also, their ladder was stronger. I actually forgot the two terms that people used. It was equal opportunity and something else...
The terms I am familiar with are "equal opportunity" and "equal outcome," which I have referred to as "fair" and "equal" in this conversation, respectively. Mostly because the latter two are shorter and thus easier to type many times.
I understand the unfairness, but why was the old system unequal? Everybody had equal access to tournaments, is that not the definition of equality? It's true that the training situations (Korean vs foreigner) themselves were unequal, but in this context of tournament access, that is included within the definition of "fairness.".
True forfeited his Ro32 spot after moving to the US, so he has not exploited the same loophole as Scarlett/Major/etc. As to whether he potentially could exploit that loophole, I really don't know. If he could though, then yes, he would be in the same position.
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On December 28 2017 07:04 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2017 07:00 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 06:57 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 06:46 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 06:38 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 06:29 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 05:10 RCCar wrote:On December 28 2017 04:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 03:15 deacon.frost wrote:
I will write it. I'm salty AF because 3 foreigners took places for 3 ro32 material Koreans WHO CANNOT ATTEND ABROAD to try their luck there.
I don't care how. I'm just pissed. No matter the fact that Maru and $O$ made it. Sure they can. Just obtain a visa in any of the WCS regions and live there. For the longest time, that's what foreigners had to do to be the best and survive in the SC2 environment. Foreigners would come and train in Korea. So when the Korean opportunities are more limited, they should have to make the effort to go to a WCS region and live there and see if they can succeed. Honestly, if they can't make it here, I seriously doubt they would do that well in any other region. Getting a visa isn't that easy... you can't just be like "Well hop on a flight to America where you know no english and have no connections whatsoever- no visa? Just get it" They don't have to get a visa to America; they can get a visa to anywhere in Europe or any other WCS region. See, people expected this of foreigners a couple years ago in WoL and HotS. Everyone knew that if you wanted to do well, you trained in Korea. Regardless of the difficulties of doing this, these were the expectations. Right now, the foreigners who qualified for the GSL are currently living there, and many have lived there for several months. Therefore, I see nothing wrong if this is what is expected of potential Korean players who want more opportunities outside the GSL. By its nature, the GSL is region locked by the fact that you have to live there for the duration of when you compete. So if you want an "easier" region (America or Europe or SEA), then you should live there. And the thing is, my opinion may seem harsh, but unregionlocking WCS would do nothing to the amateur Korean players, as the people who would qualify are those who already do well in the GSL. EDIT: the only way this would be "fair" is if Blizzard let amateur Koreans compete in the WCS but continued to disallow the top Koreans. That would not be fair in any way. Fair would be what we had before region-lock, when every tournament was open to anyone who showed up. It would however be equal, or at least more equal than both the current system and the pre-region-lock system. I'm talking about fairness as an abstract concept, and disregarding the very real need to consider the context. Region-lock might be necessary because of the context, to promote equality, but by its very definition it is not fair. The crux of the issue here is the same as the one with affirmative action: Fair or Equal? The system we had with no region lock was neither fair nor equal because the context of Koreans having the system and the culture to produce better players created an unequal and unfair competitive advantage for just a blanket completely open tournament scene. I would posit that what is fair and equal depends on the context in which we are talking fairness and equality. The context here I think is what lies within the reasonable capacity of an individual player to influence through their own agency. It is unreasonable to punish players based on their country of birth, something over which they have no control. That being the case, the old system was indeed equal because all players regardless of background had identical opportunity. However, it was unfair due to the inherent advantages of Korean progaming infrastructure. Region-lock swapped this by making the system fair but unequal, in that foreigners received help (Koreans were banned) which allowed the foreign scene to develop, but at the cost of inequality–treating players differently based on their country of origin. Region-lock then became both unfair and unequal in the specific case of foreigners living in Korea. Players like Scarlett, Major, etc, are effectively exploiting the best of both worlds by both playing in GSL like the Koreans and playing in WCS events like foreigners. I would argue that the old scene was both unfair and unequal. Based on their locations of birth, people born in Korea intrinsically had a greater opportunity because of the GSL and because of their culture, which fostered the gaming mentality and attitude. Also, their ladder was stronger. I actually forgot the two terms that people used. It was equal opportunity and something else... The terms I am familiar with are "equal opportunity" and "equal outcome," which I have referred to as "fair" and "equal" in this conversation, respectively. Mostly because the latter two are shorter and thus easier to type many times.
Ah, then I would say that with regards to the top Koreans, the situation is both fair and equal because foreigners are not being completely wiped all the time, and the number of competitions is similar. I think 5 to 6.
However, the amateur Korean scene is being destroyed because they can neither compete with mid level foreigners nor their top level countrymen.
Edit: unequal because Koreans could make a living and most foreigners could not. When only the top Koreans and even mid Koreans are winning, this means all the money is going to the Koreans. Slowly, over time, the money all goes towards the Koreans at the expense of the other regions.
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On December 28 2017 07:08 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2017 07:04 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 07:00 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 06:57 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 06:46 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 06:38 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 06:29 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 05:10 RCCar wrote:On December 28 2017 04:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 03:15 deacon.frost wrote:
I will write it. I'm salty AF because 3 foreigners took places for 3 ro32 material Koreans WHO CANNOT ATTEND ABROAD to try their luck there.
I don't care how. I'm just pissed. No matter the fact that Maru and $O$ made it. Sure they can. Just obtain a visa in any of the WCS regions and live there. For the longest time, that's what foreigners had to do to be the best and survive in the SC2 environment. Foreigners would come and train in Korea. So when the Korean opportunities are more limited, they should have to make the effort to go to a WCS region and live there and see if they can succeed. Honestly, if they can't make it here, I seriously doubt they would do that well in any other region. Getting a visa isn't that easy... you can't just be like "Well hop on a flight to America where you know no english and have no connections whatsoever- no visa? Just get it" They don't have to get a visa to America; they can get a visa to anywhere in Europe or any other WCS region. See, people expected this of foreigners a couple years ago in WoL and HotS. Everyone knew that if you wanted to do well, you trained in Korea. Regardless of the difficulties of doing this, these were the expectations. Right now, the foreigners who qualified for the GSL are currently living there, and many have lived there for several months. Therefore, I see nothing wrong if this is what is expected of potential Korean players who want more opportunities outside the GSL. By its nature, the GSL is region locked by the fact that you have to live there for the duration of when you compete. So if you want an "easier" region (America or Europe or SEA), then you should live there. And the thing is, my opinion may seem harsh, but unregionlocking WCS would do nothing to the amateur Korean players, as the people who would qualify are those who already do well in the GSL. EDIT: the only way this would be "fair" is if Blizzard let amateur Koreans compete in the WCS but continued to disallow the top Koreans. That would not be fair in any way. Fair would be what we had before region-lock, when every tournament was open to anyone who showed up. It would however be equal, or at least more equal than both the current system and the pre-region-lock system. I'm talking about fairness as an abstract concept, and disregarding the very real need to consider the context. Region-lock might be necessary because of the context, to promote equality, but by its very definition it is not fair. The crux of the issue here is the same as the one with affirmative action: Fair or Equal? The system we had with no region lock was neither fair nor equal because the context of Koreans having the system and the culture to produce better players created an unequal and unfair competitive advantage for just a blanket completely open tournament scene. I would posit that what is fair and equal depends on the context in which we are talking fairness and equality. The context here I think is what lies within the reasonable capacity of an individual player to influence through their own agency. It is unreasonable to punish players based on their country of birth, something over which they have no control. That being the case, the old system was indeed equal because all players regardless of background had identical opportunity. However, it was unfair due to the inherent advantages of Korean progaming infrastructure. Region-lock swapped this by making the system fair but unequal, in that foreigners received help (Koreans were banned) which allowed the foreign scene to develop, but at the cost of inequality–treating players differently based on their country of origin. Region-lock then became both unfair and unequal in the specific case of foreigners living in Korea. Players like Scarlett, Major, etc, are effectively exploiting the best of both worlds by both playing in GSL like the Koreans and playing in WCS events like foreigners. I would argue that the old scene was both unfair and unequal. Based on their locations of birth, people born in Korea intrinsically had a greater opportunity because of the GSL and because of their culture, which fostered the gaming mentality and attitude. Also, their ladder was stronger. I actually forgot the two terms that people used. It was equal opportunity and something else... The terms I am familiar with are "equal opportunity" and "equal outcome," which I have referred to as "fair" and "equal" in this conversation, respectively. Mostly because the latter two are shorter and thus easier to type many times. Ah, then I would say that with regards to the top Koreans, the situation is both fair and equal because foreigners are not being completely wiped all the time, and the number of competitions is similar. I think 5 to 6. However, the amateur Korean scene is being destroyed because they can neither compete with mid level foreigners nor their top level countrymen. Edit: unequal because Koreans could make a living and most foreigners could not. When only the top Koreans and even mid Koreans are winning, this means all the money is going to the Koreans. Slowly, over time, the money all goes towards the Koreans at the expense of the other regions.
Are you referring to the current (region-locked) situation? If so, I would contend that it is unequal because they lack the same access to tournaments as foreign players.
I agree that yes, that is one reason that the amateur Korean scene is dying/dead, but I would tend to think that there are larger ones (namely, the overall lack of Korean interest/$$$ in SC2, which itself has a bunch of reasons).
You are speaking of the monetary outcome, which is obviously of great importance to the players, but I was speaking purely about the competitive outcome. How the players themselves perform in the competition has no bearing on the equality of the competition itself.
It should be obvious by now, but just to be clear I'm arguing purely with regard to theoretics and not at all about the realistic implications of region-locking (which is its own large conversation).
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Why not make a thread about it ?
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On December 28 2017 07:21 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2017 07:08 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 07:04 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 07:00 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 06:57 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 06:46 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 06:38 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 06:29 FrkFrJss wrote:On December 28 2017 05:10 RCCar wrote:On December 28 2017 04:41 FrkFrJss wrote:
[quote]
Sure they can. Just obtain a visa in any of the WCS regions and live there. For the longest time, that's what foreigners had to do to be the best and survive in the SC2 environment. Foreigners would come and train in Korea.
So when the Korean opportunities are more limited, they should have to make the effort to go to a WCS region and live there and see if they can succeed.
Honestly, if they can't make it here, I seriously doubt they would do that well in any other region. Getting a visa isn't that easy... you can't just be like "Well hop on a flight to America where you know no english and have no connections whatsoever- no visa? Just get it" They don't have to get a visa to America; they can get a visa to anywhere in Europe or any other WCS region. See, people expected this of foreigners a couple years ago in WoL and HotS. Everyone knew that if you wanted to do well, you trained in Korea. Regardless of the difficulties of doing this, these were the expectations. Right now, the foreigners who qualified for the GSL are currently living there, and many have lived there for several months. Therefore, I see nothing wrong if this is what is expected of potential Korean players who want more opportunities outside the GSL. By its nature, the GSL is region locked by the fact that you have to live there for the duration of when you compete. So if you want an "easier" region (America or Europe or SEA), then you should live there. And the thing is, my opinion may seem harsh, but unregionlocking WCS would do nothing to the amateur Korean players, as the people who would qualify are those who already do well in the GSL. EDIT: the only way this would be "fair" is if Blizzard let amateur Koreans compete in the WCS but continued to disallow the top Koreans. That would not be fair in any way. Fair would be what we had before region-lock, when every tournament was open to anyone who showed up. It would however be equal, or at least more equal than both the current system and the pre-region-lock system. I'm talking about fairness as an abstract concept, and disregarding the very real need to consider the context. Region-lock might be necessary because of the context, to promote equality, but by its very definition it is not fair. The crux of the issue here is the same as the one with affirmative action: Fair or Equal? The system we had with no region lock was neither fair nor equal because the context of Koreans having the system and the culture to produce better players created an unequal and unfair competitive advantage for just a blanket completely open tournament scene. I would posit that what is fair and equal depends on the context in which we are talking fairness and equality. The context here I think is what lies within the reasonable capacity of an individual player to influence through their own agency. It is unreasonable to punish players based on their country of birth, something over which they have no control. That being the case, the old system was indeed equal because all players regardless of background had identical opportunity. However, it was unfair due to the inherent advantages of Korean progaming infrastructure. Region-lock swapped this by making the system fair but unequal, in that foreigners received help (Koreans were banned) which allowed the foreign scene to develop, but at the cost of inequality–treating players differently based on their country of origin. Region-lock then became both unfair and unequal in the specific case of foreigners living in Korea. Players like Scarlett, Major, etc, are effectively exploiting the best of both worlds by both playing in GSL like the Koreans and playing in WCS events like foreigners. I would argue that the old scene was both unfair and unequal. Based on their locations of birth, people born in Korea intrinsically had a greater opportunity because of the GSL and because of their culture, which fostered the gaming mentality and attitude. Also, their ladder was stronger. I actually forgot the two terms that people used. It was equal opportunity and something else... The terms I am familiar with are "equal opportunity" and "equal outcome," which I have referred to as "fair" and "equal" in this conversation, respectively. Mostly because the latter two are shorter and thus easier to type many times. Ah, then I would say that with regards to the top Koreans, the situation is both fair and equal because foreigners are not being completely wiped all the time, and the number of competitions is similar. I think 5 to 6. However, the amateur Korean scene is being destroyed because they can neither compete with mid level foreigners nor their top level countrymen. Edit: unequal because Koreans could make a living and most foreigners could not. When only the top Koreans and even mid Koreans are winning, this means all the money is going to the Koreans. Slowly, over time, the money all goes towards the Koreans at the expense of the other regions. Are you referring to the current (region-locked) situation? If so, I would contend that it is unequal because they lack the same access to tournaments as foreign players. I agree that yes, that is one reason that the amateur Korean scene is dying/dead, but I would tend to think that there are larger ones (namely, the overall lack of Korean interest/$$$ in SC2, which itself has a bunch of reasons). You are speaking of the monetary outcome, which is obviously of great importance to the players, but I was speaking purely about the competitive outcome. How the players themselves perform in the competition has no bearing on the equality of the competition itself. It should be obvious by now, but just to be clear I'm arguing purely with regard to theoretics and not at all about the realistic implications of region-locking (which is its own large conversation).
For sure, I definitely understand that.
I think it's because the monetary value that people derive from a competition directly influences how many extra resources are going to be put towards it.
The Korean SC2 had the infrastructure in place, and with the money foreign investors were putting towards the scene, the Korean teamhouses were sustainable because of Korean interest but also because of the success they had internationally.
Take the BTTV house, why is it so popular now? A number of reasons, but one of them is that foreigners can now afford to stay abroad in Korea.
If a career path is not financially viable, mass interest will wane. It's what happened to the AM scene. It was not viable to be a progamer, and as such, most of the pros retired. A team house is only viable as long as there is money to sustain it. The team house is viable only as long as it has sponsors, and the sponsors will sponsor it if their investment pays out (or if they're just dedicated to the scene).
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On December 27 2017 18:43 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2017 18:14 EEk1TwEEk wrote:
None of the non-koreans will make it to Ro16 Scarlett has suffered enough. She'll make it this time
God, I hope you're right. That would be a really great moment. After her very impressive performance last time, I don't think there's any foreigner I'd rather see advance.
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On December 28 2017 06:21 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2017 06:09 SNSeigifried wrote:
So I'm just wondering why do people care if Scalett/NoRegreT are allowed to play and qualify if they are doing the same thing TRUE is doing they legit live there all year. 0_0 Because they still participate in WCS events, which all the Koreans cannot. By staying in Korea as foreigners, they can play in both the GSL and still fly out and play in foreign events as well–the exact situation that Koreans are explicitly forbidden to do via region-locking. I do not know whether Blizzard intended this loophole to be present in the region-lock, but the situation as it stands is such that foreigners can and do participate in every tournament while Koreans cannot, simply by virtue of nationality. It is an irrefutable fact that the current system is unfair (when considered in a vacuum). The question is whether or not it is justified (by historical precedent, skill differential, etc, etc). At its root, the concept is basically the same as affirmative action, with all the same controversy therein. EDIT: Well, at least Scarlett, Major, etc do this. I haven't heard of Noregret in any of the WCS events so I'm not sure what he does.
as far as i know koreans such as true/polt/violet are allowed to fly back and play in GSL qualifiers if they want to; there is just a limit to how much time they can spend away from the region they play in if they play wcs
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On December 28 2017 13:15 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2017 06:21 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 06:09 SNSeigifried wrote:
So I'm just wondering why do people care if Scalett/NoRegreT are allowed to play and qualify if they are doing the same thing TRUE is doing they legit live there all year. 0_0 Because they still participate in WCS events, which all the Koreans cannot. By staying in Korea as foreigners, they can play in both the GSL and still fly out and play in foreign events as well–the exact situation that Koreans are explicitly forbidden to do via region-locking. I do not know whether Blizzard intended this loophole to be present in the region-lock, but the situation as it stands is such that foreigners can and do participate in every tournament while Koreans cannot, simply by virtue of nationality. It is an irrefutable fact that the current system is unfair (when considered in a vacuum). The question is whether or not it is justified (by historical precedent, skill differential, etc, etc). At its root, the concept is basically the same as affirmative action, with all the same controversy therein. EDIT: Well, at least Scarlett, Major, etc do this. I haven't heard of Noregret in any of the WCS events so I'm not sure what he does. as far as i know koreans such as true/polt/violet are allowed to fly back and play in GSL qualifiers if they want to; there is just a limit to how much time they can spend away from the region they play in if they play wcs
The rules limit how much time "qualifying foreign residents" spend outside their region for "non-competitive reasons". Participating in the GSL presumably falls under the heading of "competitive reasons", so in theory a Korean should be able to participate in both GSL and WCS. In practice you probably have to discuss things with Blizzard, and maintaining the resident visa while travelling so much might be tricky.
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On December 28 2017 13:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2017 13:15 Scarlett` wrote:On December 28 2017 06:21 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 06:09 SNSeigifried wrote:
So I'm just wondering why do people care if Scalett/NoRegreT are allowed to play and qualify if they are doing the same thing TRUE is doing they legit live there all year. 0_0 Because they still participate in WCS events, which all the Koreans cannot. By staying in Korea as foreigners, they can play in both the GSL and still fly out and play in foreign events as well–the exact situation that Koreans are explicitly forbidden to do via region-locking. I do not know whether Blizzard intended this loophole to be present in the region-lock, but the situation as it stands is such that foreigners can and do participate in every tournament while Koreans cannot, simply by virtue of nationality. It is an irrefutable fact that the current system is unfair (when considered in a vacuum). The question is whether or not it is justified (by historical precedent, skill differential, etc, etc). At its root, the concept is basically the same as affirmative action, with all the same controversy therein. EDIT: Well, at least Scarlett, Major, etc do this. I haven't heard of Noregret in any of the WCS events so I'm not sure what he does. as far as i know koreans such as true/polt/violet are allowed to fly back and play in GSL qualifiers if they want to; there is just a limit to how much time they can spend away from the region they play in if they play wcs The rules limit how much time "qualifying foreign residents" spend outside their region for "non-competitive reasons". Participating in the GSL presumably falls under the heading of "competitive reasons", so in theory a Korean should be able to participate in both GSL and WCS. In practice you probably have to discuss things with Blizzard, and maintaining the resident visa while travelling so much might be tricky.
I can't imagine Blizzard allowing Koreans to game the system considering the system was put in place to keep them out.
Why Blizzard thought the non-Korean scene was worth saving when it was incurably infested with Zerg players is beyond me.
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On December 28 2017 13:45 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2017 13:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 28 2017 13:15 Scarlett` wrote:On December 28 2017 06:21 pvsnp wrote:On December 28 2017 06:09 SNSeigifried wrote:
So I'm just wondering why do people care if Scalett/NoRegreT are allowed to play and qualify if they are doing the same thing TRUE is doing they legit live there all year. 0_0 Because they still participate in WCS events, which all the Koreans cannot. By staying in Korea as foreigners, they can play in both the GSL and still fly out and play in foreign events as well–the exact situation that Koreans are explicitly forbidden to do via region-locking. I do not know whether Blizzard intended this loophole to be present in the region-lock, but the situation as it stands is such that foreigners can and do participate in every tournament while Koreans cannot, simply by virtue of nationality. It is an irrefutable fact that the current system is unfair (when considered in a vacuum). The question is whether or not it is justified (by historical precedent, skill differential, etc, etc). At its root, the concept is basically the same as affirmative action, with all the same controversy therein. EDIT: Well, at least Scarlett, Major, etc do this. I haven't heard of Noregret in any of the WCS events so I'm not sure what he does. as far as i know koreans such as true/polt/violet are allowed to fly back and play in GSL qualifiers if they want to; there is just a limit to how much time they can spend away from the region they play in if they play wcs The rules limit how much time "qualifying foreign residents" spend outside their region for "non-competitive reasons". Participating in the GSL presumably falls under the heading of "competitive reasons", so in theory a Korean should be able to participate in both GSL and WCS. In practice you probably have to discuss things with Blizzard, and maintaining the resident visa while travelling so much might be tricky. I can't imagine Blizzard allowing Koreans to game the system considering the system was put in place to keep them out. Why Blizzard thought the non-Korean scene was worth saving when it was incurably infested with Zerg players is beyond me.
how is it gaming the system its literally the rules whether you want to believe them or not
theyre to make up for the fact that gsl is a several month offline event whereas wcs is just a weekend even if they does go a little overboard
people are paying thousands of dollars to come from na/europe to practice in korea and play in gsl qualifiers; its not so easy for us either
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EPT
