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INnoVation: The Road to BlizzCon - Rank 1

Forum Index > SC2 General
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INnoVation: The Road to BlizzCon - Rank 1

Text byTL.net ESPORTS
Graphics byshiroiusagi
October 25th, 2017 13:15 GMT
Photo Credit: Shayla
INnoVation
Lee Shin Hyung


The Road to BlizzCon


by Olli


The year is 2017. (T)The King breathes no more, God bless his memory, the victim of a failing body and a scene that brusquely marched forth as he fell behind. For years many candidates, old foes and newcomers alike, attempted to take his spot at the top of the StarCraft world. All of them met failure. Some were frauds, exposed when push came to shove. Others stubbornly kept their vestigial weaknesses instead of developing into players who could earn the spot. A few sabotaged themselves via foolish decisions and apathy. None replicated the sense of wonder and possibility Mvp invoked on the stage.

"INnoVation is now posing the ultimate question—is he the greatest player of all time?"
Nature abhors a vacuum and Lee Shin Hyung is poised to bring balance back to the universe. Five years after his first appearance in StarCraft II, INnoVation is now posing the ultimate question—is he the greatest player of all time? Already there is a strong notion among the community that he deserves the title. Who else can challenge the stunning amount of success InnoVation has enjoyed in 2017, or the level of transformation between his initial play and today? Previously, his clear foibles preempted any comparisons with Mvp or (Z)Life. He was the wrong man in the right place, critics sneered, a very limited player who could only dominate when the meta aligned perfectly with his strengths. Bit by bit, the former SKT ace has overcome his past weaknesses—the bullheaded insistence he could punch through any defense with superior mechanics, charges that he couldn’t live up to his moniker when it came to evaluating strategy, insecurity at the slightest deviation from his plans—to become the foremost champion of LotV. Certainly naysayers wouldn’t dispute his rank as the best Terran in the post-WoL era. One more victory could lay to rest any remaining doubt about his legitimacy.

Like many contemporaries fighting for the vacant seat INnoVation began his SC2 career with a strut and cheeky smile. Instead of enduring the harrowing struggles typical of an underdog, he skipped the formalities and sank his teeth into some meat. Some unimpressive appearances in the 2011-2012 Hybrid Proleague were mercifully erased by a series of increasingly spectacular GSL showings. He breezed through Code A stalwarts (Z)YugiOh, (T)Bomber and (T)Happy after qualifying for his first GSL; he immediately one-upped his formidable start with a semifinals run in Season 5. By the time he stood on the verge of ultimate victory in GSL 2013 Season 1, INnoVation had become a bona fide sensation. His meteoric rise was a beacon of hope during the gloomy days of Terran. Lovers of human beings and haters of BL/infestor took comfort in his temerity. Ardent KeSPA fans hyped him as the vanguard of an army of superior competitors (which turned out to be clairvoyant).



Winrate


61.92% vs. Terran
65.44% vs. Protoss
75.00% vs. Zerg

Rank


Circuit Standings
2

WCS Points


11050



During this period INnoVation gained his most memorable and tenacious nickname: “The Machine”. It was an apt if prickly sobriquet. His ascent was characterized by precise execution of practiced strategies, so well tailored to his own strengths that they ended in inexorable victories. His TvZ prowess in 2013 especially showcased how effective this blueprint could be when externalities were moot. Zergs dreaded matches against him as if they were being goaded towards a descent into Hades. Letting him construct the proper infrastructure for the parade push was suicidal; getting the better of him in the early stages was infeasible; parrying his incessant waves of 4M until hive tech was playing Russian Roulette with a full cylinder. Only one player stood a chance in standard macro games—(Z)Soulkey.

When INnoVation and Soulkey met in the GSL Grand Finals, all of INnoVation's strengths were on display—but so were all his flaws. When push came to shove and INnoVation had to deliver, he failed spectacularly. Ahead 3-0, he allowed Soulkey to come back in the series and, tied at 3-3, made an uncharacteristic mistake that cost him the title.


After scouting Soulkey's mutalisks with his viking, INnoVation flies his medivacs straight into them and loses the series.


The way INnoVation crumbled under pressure left us flabbergasted. We had never seen him fall apart so completely, so helplessly, especially in a matchup where his success seemed automatic. “Clutch factor” never came up in discussions of his TvZ: he usually bowled over the competition regardless of the purported uniqueness of his victim. Thanks to his relative greenhorn status we hadn’t become disillusioned with his potential either. At the time we associated fragile mentalities with the likes of (T)ByuN and (P)Liquid'HerO. And yet, after steamrolling Soulkey in the first half of what looked to be a forgettable grand finals, he froze up.

Soulkey’s simple but ingenious turn exploited INnoVation’s most prominent weakness, the ingrained tendency to treat StarCraft like Tetris instead of mahjong. Roach all-ins might have fooled an foe like (T)TaeJa once before he consciously adjusted, but they befuddled someone who treated “reactionary play” like a leper. His original template proved quite beneficial at the beginning of his career. By focusing solely on the factors he could control and ignoring the rest, INnoVation mastered the execution necessary to punch holes in his opponent’s defenses. The standard parade pushes paid no heed to the intricacies of muta micro or the variety of ling/bane compositions; it was a timing push that punished the progression of the Zerg tech tree in general.

Yet when forced into defensive situations with little information—committed all-ins, strange build orders, backstabs—INnoVation fumbled the ball over and over again. It was always an amalgamation of minor flaws that led to his demise. Greed, a lack of proper scouting, a lack of long-term planning over a series and the simple inability to discern the correct response. Over the next few years, many of INnoVation's tournament exits followed a similar pattern. Look no further than (P)duckdeok's huge upset elimination of INnoVation at BlizzCon 2013, or HerO's 3-0 victory over him at IEM Cologne.



INnoVation is eliminated from BlizzCon 2013 by (P)duckdeok, exhibiting a clear deficiency in planning over the entire series.


INnoVation often proved rigid and stubborn in his approach. Rather than negating his opponent’s strengths via meticulous observation and planning, he attempted to stick to his guns. That tendency was commonly exploited by players comfortable with uncertainty and risk-taking. duckdeok was famous for the exact type of play INnoVation was caught off guard by. INnoVation had the necessary time to prepare for the match, but he did not attempt to force duckdeok to play another way. Compared to legends like (T)Mvp and (Z)NesTea, who mapped out series down to the tiniest details, INnoVation seemed myopic and brutish.

That deficiency was impossible to ignore in the weekend tournaments INnoVation attended. When STX Soul disbanded in 2013 and INnoVation, undoubtedly the best player in the world at that point, was signed by Acer, most expected him to conquer the international scene next. Such high hopes were quickly dashed. Naturally series planning is almost impossible to enact when you only know your matchup a few hours beforehand; on-the-fly adaptation, composure, and endurance are the keys to victory in that arena. He was faced with players who had vastly larger experience in that format, and it was no coincidence that the same challengers continuously eliminated him. TaeJa, Life, HerO, (Z)Jaedong and (Z)Solar were comfortable with uncertainty and risk-taking, so they thrived in the setting that harshly exposed INnoVation's flaws. It took him until 2015 to win his first foreign tournament.

These shortcomings Soulkey first discovered bedeviled INnoVation for years. After the disappointment of his first GSL finals, he entered the chiaroscuro stage of his career. Brilliant peaks in 2013 and 2015 were marred by long phases of mediocrity. The enthusiasm that colored his rise faded to a more hard-bitten assessment of his capabilities. “Patch terran” emerged as the rallying cry under which his critics gathered. They were almost proven right when INnoVation fell of the map entirely in 2016. It was an abysmal year, the worst of his career by far, which ended with a last place finish in SSL Season 1 as his best placement.

But then came 2017 and somehow, whether through introspection or infernal magic, all his flaws were washed away. A week before Christmas 2016 INnoVation won IEM Gyeonggi, capping it with a 4-0 over (P)Stats. He proceeded to take SSL Season 1, GSL Season 3, and GSL vs the World. Two weekend tournaments and two Korean starleagues stretched across nine months. A remarkable record when you take into account the Balkanization of the international scene. In the SSL Finals he was comprehensively prepared for Solar and easily ran away with the series. In the GSL Finals, he staged a comeback when (P)sOs was on match point.

All his problems of the past are now that—unpleasant memories receding into the background. No longer is INnoVation the perpetual punching bag for all-ins. No longer does he fail to plan a series or collapse in the most stressful moments. No longer does he feel uncomfortable in certain tournament formats. The erratic rises and dips in form have been replaced by prolonged, entrenched stability.

The year is 2017. INnoVation has bested all opposition and wrestled control over every tournament format. Well, almost every format. The Global Finals remains the sole treasure outside of his reach, the green light across the bay beckoning to him. The great opponents of the past are no more threat. TaeJa is gone, Life is gone, and the INnoVation that once wished to avoid them in the bracket is gone. All his demons have been exorcised. INnoVation's Road to BlizzCon has been arduous, but the five years of frustration and bulldog persistence had a purpose. In a sense his first paradigm of StarCraft was correct—success was the byproduct of self-mastery. The difference between shedding flaws and indulging in them was an enigma back then, and it took him half a decade to fully dedicate himself to the former. Now he is more complete than he ever was—perhaps a more complete player than anyone ever was.

When INnoVation finally steps onto the BlizzCon stage, he will play for a different title than anyone else at the tournament. After years of self-improvement he has every reason to demand being called the greatest player in StarCraft II history. If he wins BlizzCon, the only tournament he has not conquered, none can deny it.








Writers: Olli, CosmicSpiral
Editor: CosmicSpiral, Olli
Photo Credit: DreamHack, Shayla
Statistics: Aligulac
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TL+ Member
DieuCure
Profile Joined January 2017
France3713 Posts
October 25 2017 13:14 GMT
#2
Disappointed, i though it would be Mvp, Cure or TY ...
TL+ Member
engesser1
Profile Blog Joined December 2016
264 Posts
October 25 2017 13:17 GMT
#3
i though it would be Maru or sOs.
Maru, he is the reason why i'm still playing and watching sc2
Argonauta
Profile Joined July 2016
Spain4902 Posts
October 25 2017 13:20 GMT
#4
Correct capitalization of the name, I'm happy
Rogue | Maru | Scarlett | Trap
TL+ Member
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15880 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 13:34:23
October 25 2017 13:28 GMT
#5
Why does everyone have a statement about the player in the title (like TY: Second sunrise) but not Inno?

Also this is the best article imo.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 13:30:02
October 25 2017 13:29 GMT
#6
On October 25 2017 22:28 Charoisaur wrote:
Why does everyone have a statement about the player in the title (like TY: Second sunrise) but not Inno?


"The Road to BlizzCon" is the title of this article. Should perhaps read first.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 23:39:08
October 25 2017 13:30 GMT
#7
That title is letdown of the century...

Poll: Right now, before Blizzcon, is INnoVation GOAT already?

No (59)
 
54%

Yes (51)
 
46%

110 total votes

Your vote: Right now, before Blizzcon, is INnoVation GOAT already?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No



Poll: If INnoVation wins Blizzcon, does he become undisputed GOAT?

Yes (76)
 
68%

No (36)
 
32%

112 total votes

Your vote: If INnoVation wins Blizzcon, does he become undisputed GOAT?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No

Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
ParksonVN
Profile Joined October 2015
Australia370 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 13:32:36
October 25 2017 13:30 GMT
#8
Inno's article is written by Olli ? I'm so disappointed
btw if it was Zest's article, we could have seen title like "Zest - ultra god of Protoss etc..." instead of "Road to Blizzcon", meh, who wouldn't know ?
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 13:35:55
October 25 2017 13:32 GMT
#9
On October 25 2017 22:30 ParksonVN wrote:
Inno's article is written by Olli ? I'm so disappointed


I bet you haven't read it.

As for the title, I don't care one bit about pleasing his fanboys. Read the article and you'll see why I went with this.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15880 Posts
October 25 2017 13:36 GMT
#10
On October 25 2017 22:29 Olli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2017 22:28 Charoisaur wrote:
Why does everyone have a statement about the player in the title (like TY: Second sunrise) but not Inno?


"The Road to BlizzCon" is the title of this article. Should perhaps read first.

Road to blizzcon stands there for every article. The other ones have an additional statement about the player though.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
gronnelg
Profile Joined December 2010
Norway354 Posts
October 25 2017 13:36 GMT
#11
Awesome! Getting pretty psyched about Blizzcon here :D
Lulzez || My stream: http://www.twitch.tv/gronnelg
DieuCure
Profile Joined January 2017
France3713 Posts
October 25 2017 13:37 GMT
#12
On October 25 2017 22:30 ParksonVN wrote:
Inno's article is written by Olli ? I'm so disappointed
btw if it was Zest's article, we could have seen title like "Zest - ultra god of Protoss etc..." instead of "Road to Blizzcon", meh, who wouldn't know ?



No, seriously this article is cool and and objective.
TL+ Member
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
October 25 2017 13:38 GMT
#13
On October 25 2017 22:36 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2017 22:29 Olli wrote:
On October 25 2017 22:28 Charoisaur wrote:
Why does everyone have a statement about the player in the title (like TY: Second sunrise) but not Inno?


"The Road to BlizzCon" is the title of this article. Should perhaps read first.

Road to blizzcon stands there for every article. The other ones have an additional statement about the player though.


The other ones have the title there. So does this one.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 13:38:48
October 25 2017 13:38 GMT
#14
On October 25 2017 22:36 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2017 22:29 Olli wrote:
On October 25 2017 22:28 Charoisaur wrote:
Why does everyone have a statement about the player in the title (like TY: Second sunrise) but not Inno?


"The Road to BlizzCon" is the title of this article. Should perhaps read first.

Road to blizzcon stands there for every article. The other ones have an additional statement about the player though.

Because it's literally what the entire article is about. Excuse me, but what the actual fuck?
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
October 25 2017 13:39 GMT
#15
On October 25 2017 22:38 Ej_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2017 22:36 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 25 2017 22:29 Olli wrote:
On October 25 2017 22:28 Charoisaur wrote:
Why does everyone have a statement about the player in the title (like TY: Second sunrise) but not Inno?


"The Road to BlizzCon" is the title of this article. Should perhaps read first.

Road to blizzcon stands there for every article. The other ones have an additional statement about the player though.

Because it's literally what the entire article is about. Excuse me, but what the actual fuck?


People who never contributed anything in their life have nothing better to do than find anything to shit on at all. What else is new?
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
DieuCure
Profile Joined January 2017
France3713 Posts
October 25 2017 13:42 GMT
#16
An article about INno and it's the war, what a surprise.
TL+ Member
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15880 Posts
October 25 2017 13:42 GMT
#17
Asking a question about the title is now shitting on the article?
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
DieuCure
Profile Joined January 2017
France3713 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 13:47:36
October 25 2017 13:47 GMT
#18
Because his name is speaking for himself, no need for romanticize the Machine and the favorite.
TL+ Member
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15880 Posts
October 25 2017 13:48 GMT
#19
The thing that confused me was that TY for example has the title "TY - Second Sunrise - rank 7 - Road to Blizzcon"

The road to blizzcon in the end is missing in this title which is why I thought it was just written before the rank instead and the statement about the player is missing.
No need to get overly defensive here.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Makro
Profile Joined March 2011
France16890 Posts
October 25 2017 13:51 GMT
#20
i just hope innovation doesn't lose in the first round, would be really awkward

great series, as expected - good job from all the writers
Matthew 5:10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of shitposting, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven".
TL+ Member
AzAlexZ
Profile Joined September 2016
Australia3303 Posts
October 25 2017 13:55 GMT
#21
Olli is so defensive about the title that doesn;t even matter
great article man
Faker is the GOAT!
LuLuneth
Profile Blog Joined July 2017
30 Posts
October 25 2017 14:14 GMT
#22
Can't wait to see Inno crash and burn xd
beepbeeeeeeep
Profile Joined February 2017
145 Posts
October 25 2017 14:14 GMT
#23
75% win rate vs Z.....insane
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 14:28:35
October 25 2017 14:15 GMT
#24
Loved the article, the writing was much better than I expected.

Bit confused about the title, I would have thought something like "The Empty Throne" would have been appropriate. I get that "The Road to Blizzcon" fits too, but it fits for arguably everyone else too (which was why everyone else had another title, I assume).

Blizzcon and GOAT, the stakes (and the hype) have never been higher.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
D-light
Profile Joined April 2012
Finland7364 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 14:27:53
October 25 2017 14:24 GMT
#25
On October 25 2017 22:42 Charoisaur wrote:
Asking a question about the title is now shitting on the article?

Only when people who never contributed anything in their life do it.
why even
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 14:29:56
October 25 2017 14:28 GMT
#26
Just thought of it, but the subtitle of "tôi kratistôi" ("To the Strongest") would've been cool. The words of Alexander the Great on his deathbed, when asked about his heir.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
EEk1TwEEk
Profile Joined June 2017
Russian Federation142 Posts
October 25 2017 14:35 GMT
#27
"Road to Blizzcon", really?

I would title it "The machine on the rise"
This man suffers from a bad heart, but I have plenty of medicine.
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
October 25 2017 14:49 GMT
#28
It was the best read among the 16th, stop bitching about the title all of ya :p

But Olli it was stronger than you, you HAD to put two vod of two DEFEAT of INno, but since the writing is very good (and also the narrative seems quite well fitted) you are forgiven, amen.
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
ToToRo87
Profile Joined June 2011
Greece8 Posts
October 25 2017 15:06 GMT
#29
Great job lads, thanks a bunch to everybody that commited their time and effort into this PL.

Btw Olli,

On October 25 2017 22:15 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:

When INnoVation finally steps onto the BlizzCon stage, he will play for a different title than anyone else at the tournament. After years of self-improvement he has every reason to demand being called the greatest player in StarCraft II history. If he wins BlizzCon, the only tournament he has not conquered, none can deny it.


I'll hold you to that.
Morbidius
Profile Joined November 2010
Brazil3449 Posts
October 25 2017 15:19 GMT
#30
Odd title, i disagree that Soulkey found Innovation's achilles heel, that was just the biggest choke in the history of SC2, any GM zerg would have beat Inno there, he simply forgot how to play the game.
Has foreign StarCraft hit rock bottom?
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10107 Posts
October 25 2017 15:21 GMT
#31
On October 25 2017 23:24 D-light wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2017 22:42 Charoisaur wrote:
Asking a question about the title is now shitting on the article?

Only when people who never contributed anything in their life do it.

Thankfully with have inspector Olli on the case to make sure that people who share their opinions haven't done anything ever. It must be an arduous task.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Drfilip
Profile Joined March 2013
Sweden590 Posts
October 25 2017 15:25 GMT
#32
The title and the text have a direct correlation. I like how this was an article about the player more than a narrative (though there still was a clear narrative there).
Random Platinum EU
Vendethiel
Profile Joined February 2017
213 Posts
October 25 2017 15:36 GMT
#33
Bomber is a "Code A stalwart"? :o he had won a MLG and qualified in code A over MvP
Maru <3
DSh1
Profile Joined April 2017
292 Posts
October 25 2017 15:39 GMT
#34
I dunno about this "Innovation became better because of magic". Wasn't it more like that he decided to practice? (= Change of attitude). At least he said that at the beginning of LotV he didn't care as much and played more LoL.
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
October 25 2017 15:44 GMT
#35
On October 26 2017 00:39 DSh1 wrote:
I dunno about this "Innovation became better because of magic". Wasn't it more like that he decided to practice? (= Change of attitude). At least he said that at the beginning of LotV he didn't care as much and played more LoL.



yes he said that he slacked during 2016 and got a "slap" when he saw the player competiting for Blizzcon (while he was invited for showmatch shit) so it awoke him !
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28453 Posts
October 25 2017 15:57 GMT
#36
(Z)Life was robbed

I Protoss winner, could it be?
yubo56
Profile Joined May 2014
686 Posts
October 25 2017 15:59 GMT
#37
Disappointed it wasn't "(T)The king breathes no more, (T)God bless his memory"
Jung Yoon Jong fighting, even after retirement! Feel better soon.
Odoakar
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia1835 Posts
October 25 2017 16:07 GMT
#38
Eh, I still think you can't compare him to Mvp.

Article was nice, but has a lot of fancy words, leaves a bit of a bloated feeling...but I might be wrong, English is not my native language.

Out of curiosity, what was meant by the statement ."...when you take into account the Balkanization of the international scene"...is international scene fractured and at war with each other? Is the international scene dead like the hopes and dreams of us living in Balkans?
curufinwe_wins
Profile Joined August 2017
68 Posts
October 25 2017 16:08 GMT
#39
Who had a better year than Innovation? Stats.

Overall a better year in SSL. (1st and 4th vs 1 and 5th
Overall a better year in GSL (1st, top 4, top 8, vs 1st, top 8, top 16)

Similar resumes in the other offline tournaments (Inno's win in GSL v World and Gyeonggi being counteracted by Stat's second in Gyeonggi, in the IEM Worlds, and similar consistency everywhere else.)
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
October 25 2017 16:11 GMT
#40
On October 26 2017 01:07 Odoakar wrote:
Eh, I still think you can't compare him to Mvp.

Article was nice, but has a lot of fancy words, leaves a bit of a bloated feeling...but I might be wrong, English is not my native language.

Out of curiosity, what was meant by the statement ."...when you take into account the Balkanization of the international scene"...is international scene fractured and at war with each other? Is the international scene dead like the hopes and dreams of us living in Balkans?



it's more like that Koreans can't compet in international like it was in 2010 to 2015, so less trophies to win.
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
October 25 2017 16:11 GMT
#41
On October 25 2017 23:14 beepbeeeeeeep wrote:
75% win rate vs Z.....insane

And he still maintains that Zerg is OP. Innovation you crazy
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 16:17:48
October 25 2017 16:16 GMT
#42
On October 26 2017 01:08 curufinwe_wins wrote:
Who had a better year than Innovation? Stats.

Overall a better year in SSL. (1st and 4th vs 1 and 5th
Overall a better year in GSL (1st, top 4, top 8, vs 1st, top 8, top 16)

Similar resumes in the other offline tournaments (Inno's win in GSL v World and Gyeonggi being counteracted by Stat's second in Gyeonggi, in the IEM Worlds, and similar consistency everywhere else.)



And yet 2 trophies against 4. Also that VSL win was a good one. so 50% winrate in finals agasint 100% this year. (also since his defeat against Soulkey, INno is around 90% in final of big tournaments, you can hardly get more clutch.


On October 26 2017 01:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2017 23:14 beepbeeeeeeep wrote:
75% win rate vs Z.....insane

And he still maintains that Zerg is OP. Innovation you crazy



That is just random numbers.
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
frazzle
Profile Joined June 2012
United States468 Posts
October 25 2017 16:17 GMT
#43
On October 26 2017 01:07 Odoakar wrote:
Eh, I still think you can't compare him to Mvp.

Article was nice, but has a lot of fancy words, leaves a bit of a bloated feeling...but I might be wrong, English is not my native language.

Out of curiosity, what was meant by the statement ."...when you take into account the Balkanization of the international scene"...is international scene fractured and at war with each other? Is the international scene dead like the hopes and dreams of us living in Balkans?

I think he means the departure of KesPa, along with a slow exodus of big name foreign teams (EG?), leaving players on their own without the old support structure of KesPa/Team life.
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
October 25 2017 16:20 GMT
#44
These complaints about the title are a bit weird to me- - it seems fine.
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
October 25 2017 16:26 GMT
#45
On October 26 2017 01:16 Mun_Su wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 01:08 curufinwe_wins wrote:
Who had a better year than Innovation? Stats.

Overall a better year in SSL. (1st and 4th vs 1 and 5th
Overall a better year in GSL (1st, top 4, top 8, vs 1st, top 8, top 16)

Similar resumes in the other offline tournaments (Inno's win in GSL v World and Gyeonggi being counteracted by Stat's second in Gyeonggi, in the IEM Worlds, and similar consistency everywhere else.)



And yet 2 trophies against 4. Also that VSL win was a good one. so 50% winrate in finals agasint 100% this year. (also since his defeat against Soulkey, INno is around 90% in final of big tournaments, you can hardly get more clutch.


Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 01:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On October 25 2017 23:14 beepbeeeeeeep wrote:
75% win rate vs Z.....insane

And he still maintains that Zerg is OP. Innovation you crazy



That is just random numbers.


It's his winrate across all games in 2017, straight from Aligulac!
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Ctone23
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States1839 Posts
October 25 2017 16:33 GMT
#46
Nice read, agree that inno was "myopic and brutish" in his early SC2 career, as if his confidence was so high that series planning was, in his mind, wasted effort, which he alludes to in his WCS Signature Series video when mentioning his transition into SC2.

Going through the rough times that he did, with himself admitting he was always thinking of his accomplishments or 'legacy' (cant remember exact words on his Signature Series vid) imo led to his renaissance in 2017. He probably realized that the effort he was attempting not to waste was actually greater than he could have predicted. It's like he upgraded himself from the T-800 to the T-1000, able to mold himself into whatever he needs to be to win.
TL+ Member
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
October 25 2017 16:36 GMT
#47
On October 26 2017 01:26 Olli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 01:16 Mun_Su wrote:
On October 26 2017 01:08 curufinwe_wins wrote:
Who had a better year than Innovation? Stats.

Overall a better year in SSL. (1st and 4th vs 1 and 5th
Overall a better year in GSL (1st, top 4, top 8, vs 1st, top 8, top 16)

Similar resumes in the other offline tournaments (Inno's win in GSL v World and Gyeonggi being counteracted by Stat's second in Gyeonggi, in the IEM Worlds, and similar consistency everywhere else.)



And yet 2 trophies against 4. Also that VSL win was a good one. so 50% winrate in finals agasint 100% this year. (also since his defeat against Soulkey, INno is around 90% in final of big tournaments, you can hardly get more clutch.


On October 26 2017 01:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On October 25 2017 23:14 beepbeeeeeeep wrote:
75% win rate vs Z.....insane

And he still maintains that Zerg is OP. Innovation you crazy



That is just random numbers.


It's his winrate across all games in 2017, straight from Aligulac!


"That's just a number." is the best INnoquote.
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 16:37:23
October 25 2017 16:36 GMT
#48
On October 26 2017 01:26 Olli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 01:16 Mun_Su wrote:
On October 26 2017 01:08 curufinwe_wins wrote:
Who had a better year than Innovation? Stats.

Overall a better year in SSL. (1st and 4th vs 1 and 5th
Overall a better year in GSL (1st, top 4, top 8, vs 1st, top 8, top 16)

Similar resumes in the other offline tournaments (Inno's win in GSL v World and Gyeonggi being counteracted by Stat's second in Gyeonggi, in the IEM Worlds, and similar consistency everywhere else.)



And yet 2 trophies against 4. Also that VSL win was a good one. so 50% winrate in finals agasint 100% this year. (also since his defeat against Soulkey, INno is around 90% in final of big tournaments, you can hardly get more clutch.


On October 26 2017 01:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On October 25 2017 23:14 beepbeeeeeeep wrote:
75% win rate vs Z.....insane

And he still maintains that Zerg is OP. Innovation you crazy



That is just random numbers.


It's his winrate across all games in 2017, straight from Aligulac!

Inno's method call to calculateWinrate (T, Z) returned 10%.

Therefore, Zerg OP.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
nick00bot
Profile Joined November 2010
326 Posts
October 25 2017 16:43 GMT
#49
Great article! I wanna say it's best one of the series.

Previous articles I think have been a little overly focused on writing around a concept more than the players, so they have a lacked a bit of the historical context and style analysis that this one had. They were still good articles but just overindulgent, and that flaw that I think prevented some of the newer folks from learning about the players.

This article retained a lot of the best part of this concept-centered writing style, while still providing a lot of good information about the player and doing so in a pleasing narrative fashion. Number #1 in the Power rank article power rank
SoO~Speed~Serral~$o$~Dark~Myungsik~TY~Byun~Classic
Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States13969 Posts
October 25 2017 17:01 GMT
#50
On October 26 2017 01:43 nick00bot wrote:
Great article! I wanna say it's best one of the series.

Previous articles I think have been a little overly focused on writing around a concept more than the players, so they have a lacked a bit of the historical context and style analysis that this one had. They were still good articles but just overindulgent, and that flaw that I think prevented some of the newer folks from learning about the players.

This article retained a lot of the best part of this concept-centered writing style, while still providing a lot of good information about the player and doing so in a pleasing narrative fashion. Number #1 in the Power rank article power rank

Oh you are doing on of those too?
Kaina + Drones Linkcro Summon Cupsie Yummy Way
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
October 25 2017 17:14 GMT
#51
On October 26 2017 01:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2017 23:14 beepbeeeeeeep wrote:
75% win rate vs Z.....insane

And he still maintains that Zerg is OP. Innovation you crazy


To be fair I can understand him to some extent. Any top level player will have insane winrates if they play enough, but HLB has been looking OP against bio for a while now, the mech resurgance allowed Inno and Gumi to win GSLs, but it looks like that's figured out now as well
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
October 25 2017 17:14 GMT
#52
@Olli : don't worry, like ZigguratOfUr and pvnsp said it's a famous INnoquote :D
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
jpoiv
Profile Joined April 2013
15 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 17:24:41
October 25 2017 17:23 GMT
#53
this is a beautiful bit of sc2 writing olli, well done!
ProKey
Profile Joined October 2017
3 Posts
October 25 2017 17:31 GMT
#54
Horrible title. All 16 are on the "road to blizzcon". Uncreative, would have been a letdown as the title for number 16 two weeks back.
$0$
stevemachine17
Profile Joined April 2017
45 Posts
October 25 2017 17:42 GMT
#55
Man, innovation is so freaking good, he makes zerg and protoss look underpowered. He just seems unstoppable at this point in time. I Hope Rogue takes it for the zerg, but oh boy inno looks tough
nick00bot
Profile Joined November 2010
326 Posts
October 25 2017 18:08 GMT
#56
On October 26 2017 02:01 Cricketer12 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 26 2017 01:43 nick00bot wrote:
Great article! I wanna say it's best one of the series.

Previous articles I think have been a little overly focused on writing around a concept more than the players, so they have a lacked a bit of the historical context and style analysis that this one had. They were still good articles but just overindulgent, and that flaw that I think prevented some of the newer folks from learning about the players.

This article retained a lot of the best part of this concept-centered writing style, while still providing a lot of good information about the player and doing so in a pleasing narrative fashion. Number #1 in the Power rank article power rank


Oh you are doing on of those too?



You know, I looked through them again and briefly considered it, but then I realized most of my favorite articles were written by the same person, and my least favorite by another, so I figured it would just be unnecessarily mean to spend the bottom 4 shitting on mostly one guy lol, especially since I don't really dislike any of the articles anyways hahaha
SoO~Speed~Serral~$o$~Dark~Myungsik~TY~Byun~Classic
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
October 25 2017 18:22 GMT
#57
On October 26 2017 02:31 ProKey wrote:
Horrible title. All 16 are on the "road to blizzcon". Uncreative, would have been a letdown as the title for number 16 two weeks back.


I'm so glad you made an account just to post that. Thank you so much.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 18:31:59
October 25 2017 18:24 GMT
#58
On October 26 2017 03:22 Olli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 02:31 ProKey wrote:
Horrible title. All 16 are on the "road to blizzcon". Uncreative, would have been a letdown as the title for number 16 two weeks back.


I'm so glad you made an account just to post that. Thank you so much.

All the title criticism is actually from the same person, who really, really didn't like your choice of title and so created multiple alts to spam how much he hated it

Still, I would have preferred a subtitle myself. Anything at all, even if only for consistency's sake.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
October 25 2017 18:27 GMT
#59
On October 26 2017 03:24 pvsnp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 03:22 Olli wrote:
On October 26 2017 02:31 ProKey wrote:
Horrible title. All 16 are on the "road to blizzcon". Uncreative, would have been a letdown as the title for number 16 two weeks back.


I'm so glad you made an account just to post that. Thank you so much.

All the title criticism is actually from the same person, who really, really didn't like your choice of title and so created multiple alts to spam how much he hated it

Still, I would have preferred a subtitle myself. Anything at all, even if only for consistency's sake.


Fair enough. At least with you I'm quite confident you actually read the piece and that your criticism is not for the sake of criticism.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
October 25 2017 18:35 GMT
#60
On October 26 2017 03:27 Olli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 03:24 pvsnp wrote:
On October 26 2017 03:22 Olli wrote:
On October 26 2017 02:31 ProKey wrote:
Horrible title. All 16 are on the "road to blizzcon". Uncreative, would have been a letdown as the title for number 16 two weeks back.


I'm so glad you made an account just to post that. Thank you so much.

All the title criticism is actually from the same person, who really, really didn't like your choice of title and so created multiple alts to spam how much he hated it

Still, I would have preferred a subtitle myself. Anything at all, even if only for consistency's sake.


Fair enough. At least with you I'm quite confident you actually read the piece and that your criticism is not for the sake of criticism.

I rather liked the piece, especially how it stuck close to Inno's career and let the narrative develop naturally from there. Some of these articles barely mention the player's actual deeds and it feels as though they are trying to cram a fabricated narrative down our throats. So, congratulations for that.

Just off the top of my head, because I have a fondness for pithy titles: something simple like "The Greatest of All Time?" or "The Empty Throne" gets the message across quite clearly. Something a bit more literary, like "The Machine Who Would Be King," or "Tῷ κρατίστῳ" could work but at the risk of going over people's heads.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Edpayasugo
Profile Joined April 2013
United Kingdom2212 Posts
October 25 2017 18:45 GMT
#61
I thought that this was the best article in the series, thanks.
FlaSh MMA INnoVation FanTaSy MKP TY Ryung | soO Dark Rogue | HuK PartinG Stork State
MyLovelyLurker
Profile Joined April 2007
France756 Posts
October 25 2017 18:51 GMT
#62
I can't believe the entitled mentality of some posters. We get free quality content to keep our passion alive, and people nitpick about details, when the body of the article itself is pretty epic.

To everyone whining, why don't you get a mirror and then post your own 1000 words essay instead.
"I just say, it doesn't matter win or lose, I just love Starcraft 2, I love this game, I love this stage, just play like in practice" - TIME/Oliveira
fishjie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1519 Posts
October 25 2017 18:51 GMT
#63
inno is the best player and GOAT its not really open for debate. dislike the player and will always be a fan of MVP over him, but facts are facts
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 19:32:25
October 25 2017 19:31 GMT
#64
On October 26 2017 03:51 fishjie wrote:
inno is the best player and GOAT its not really open for debate. dislike the player and will always be a fan of MVP over him, but facts are facts

I admire your ability to separate your like/dislike of a player from recognizing how skilled/unskilled they are. It's a rare talent around here.

On October 26 2017 03:51 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
I can't believe the entitled mentality of some posters. We get free quality content to keep our passion alive, and people nitpick about details, when the body of the article itself is pretty epic.

To everyone whining, why don't you get a mirror and then post your own 1000 words essay instead.

Well said.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 19:32:14
October 25 2017 19:32 GMT
#65
Double post
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
ProKey
Profile Joined October 2017
3 Posts
October 25 2017 19:34 GMT
#66
No actually many people don't like the title. Seems like it was "mailed in". Please edit for the sake of blizzcon hype. As well as consistency with the other 15 previous.
$0$
FilthyRake
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States473 Posts
October 25 2017 19:37 GMT
#67
Great article, thanks for spending the time and effort doing these!

Much as I am obviously rooting for GuMigod, I cannot deny the insane form Innovation has shown this year - I can certainly understand why he gets the #1 spot.
Co-owner of PSISTORM Gaming
curufinwe_wins
Profile Joined August 2017
68 Posts
October 25 2017 19:39 GMT
#68
On October 26 2017 01:16 Mun_Su wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 01:08 curufinwe_wins wrote:
Who had a better year than Innovation? Stats.

Overall a better year in SSL. (1st and 4th vs 1 and 5th
Overall a better year in GSL (1st, top 4, top 8, vs 1st, top 8, top 16)

Similar resumes in the other offline tournaments (Inno's win in GSL v World and Gyeonggi being counteracted by Stat's second in Gyeonggi, in the IEM Worlds, and similar consistency everywhere else.)



And yet 2 trophies against 4. Also that VSL win was a good one. so 50% winrate in finals agasint 100% this year. (also since his defeat against Soulkey, INno is around 90% in final of big tournaments, you can hardly get more clutch.


Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 01:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On October 25 2017 23:14 beepbeeeeeeep wrote:
75% win rate vs Z.....insane

And he still maintains that Zerg is OP. Innovation you crazy



That is just random numbers.


I know people are kinda "obsessed" with titles... but consistency is much more impressive to me than title wins.

There is a reason why Stats is first in WCS standing.

But anyways, if you want to say that only Stats could challenge the year Innovation has had, that would be a fair assessment. After those two the next best is way down the list. But I just found it rather ludicrous to claim that Innovation had far and away the best year (or even close to the most consistent year, which just isn't true).
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
October 25 2017 19:47 GMT
#69
On October 26 2017 04:39 curufinwe_wins wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 01:16 Mun_Su wrote:
On October 26 2017 01:08 curufinwe_wins wrote:
Who had a better year than Innovation? Stats.

Overall a better year in SSL. (1st and 4th vs 1 and 5th
Overall a better year in GSL (1st, top 4, top 8, vs 1st, top 8, top 16)

Similar resumes in the other offline tournaments (Inno's win in GSL v World and Gyeonggi being counteracted by Stat's second in Gyeonggi, in the IEM Worlds, and similar consistency everywhere else.)



And yet 2 trophies against 4. Also that VSL win was a good one. so 50% winrate in finals agasint 100% this year. (also since his defeat against Soulkey, INno is around 90% in final of big tournaments, you can hardly get more clutch.


On October 26 2017 01:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On October 25 2017 23:14 beepbeeeeeeep wrote:
75% win rate vs Z.....insane

And he still maintains that Zerg is OP. Innovation you crazy



That is just random numbers.


I know people are kinda "obsessed" with titles... but consistency is much more impressive to me than title wins.

There is a reason why Stats is first in WCS standing.

But anyways, if you want to say that only Stats could challenge the year Innovation has had, that would be a fair assessment. After those two the next best is way down the list. But I just found it rather ludicrous to claim that Innovation had far and away the best year (or even close to the most consistent year, which just isn't true).

Who had the better 2017 is arguable between Stats and Inno, depending on whether you value trophies or consistency. Though, most people don't fanatically track every finish of every player and the two-second argument of "this guy has a ton of big shiny trophies" tends to be more convincing than consistent semifinals or whatever.

I think it is safe to say that Inno has gotten a lot more attention in 2017, because trophies tend to do that, and also because he is nearing GOAT status, which draws even more attention.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15880 Posts
October 25 2017 19:55 GMT
#70
On October 26 2017 04:39 curufinwe_wins wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 01:16 Mun_Su wrote:
On October 26 2017 01:08 curufinwe_wins wrote:
Who had a better year than Innovation? Stats.

Overall a better year in SSL. (1st and 4th vs 1 and 5th
Overall a better year in GSL (1st, top 4, top 8, vs 1st, top 8, top 16)

Similar resumes in the other offline tournaments (Inno's win in GSL v World and Gyeonggi being counteracted by Stat's second in Gyeonggi, in the IEM Worlds, and similar consistency everywhere else.)



And yet 2 trophies against 4. Also that VSL win was a good one. so 50% winrate in finals agasint 100% this year. (also since his defeat against Soulkey, INno is around 90% in final of big tournaments, you can hardly get more clutch.


On October 26 2017 01:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On October 25 2017 23:14 beepbeeeeeeep wrote:
75% win rate vs Z.....insane

And he still maintains that Zerg is OP. Innovation you crazy



That is just random numbers.


I know people are kinda "obsessed" with titles... but consistency is much more impressive to me than title wins.

There is a reason why Stats is first in WCS standing.

But anyways, if you want to say that only Stats could challenge the year Innovation has had, that would be a fair assessment. After those two the next best is way down the list. But I just found it rather ludicrous to claim that Innovation had far and away the best year (or even close to the most consistent year, which just isn't true).

Because 2 of the tournaments Inno won didn't give WCS points.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
October 25 2017 20:10 GMT
#71
Road to BlizzCon 2017: INnoVation: Road to Blizzcon
AdministratorBreak the chains
207aicila
Profile Joined January 2015
1237 Posts
October 25 2017 20:16 GMT
#72
On October 26 2017 05:10 Zealously wrote:
Road to BlizzCon 2017: INnoVation: Road to Blizzcon



: Reckoning... & Knuckles, featuring Dante from the Devil May Cry series etc. etc.
mfw people who never followed BW speak about sAviOr as if they know anything... -___-''''
TL+ Member
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 20:24:02
October 25 2017 20:23 GMT
#73
On October 26 2017 05:10 Zealously wrote:
Road to BlizzCon 2017: INnoVation: Road to Blizzcon

Writers: Olli, CosmicSpiral
Editor: CosmicSpiral, Olli

This is how you get away with titles like that, guys.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
October 25 2017 20:35 GMT
#74
On October 26 2017 05:23 pvsnp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 05:10 Zealously wrote:
Road to BlizzCon 2017: INnoVation: Road to Blizzcon

Writers: Olli, CosmicSpiral
Editor: CosmicSpiral, Olli

This is how you get away with titles like that, guys.


Olli actually did everything himself and CosmicSpiral only insisted on the inclusion of the word "chiaroscuro" somewhere in the text.
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
October 25 2017 20:53 GMT
#75
On October 26 2017 05:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 05:23 pvsnp wrote:
On October 26 2017 05:10 Zealously wrote:
Road to BlizzCon 2017: INnoVation: Road to Blizzcon

Writers: Olli, CosmicSpiral
Editor: CosmicSpiral, Olli

This is how you get away with titles like that, guys.


Olli actually did everything himself and CosmicSpiral only insisted on the inclusion of the word "chiaroscuro" somewhere in the text.

I love that word. My favorite after "sprezzatura."
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Jj_82
Profile Joined December 2012
Swaziland419 Posts
October 25 2017 21:10 GMT
#76
On October 25 2017 22:51 Makro wrote:
i just hope innovation doesn't lose in the first round, would be really awkward
Unfortunately, it's absolutely not the first time he enters a competition, just to choke hard Either that, or he goes to the end.
Once rode a waterslide with PartinG and TaeJa ✌
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24192 Posts
October 25 2017 21:12 GMT
#77
Come on INno, time to turn to legend.
Jj_82
Profile Joined December 2012
Swaziland419 Posts
October 25 2017 21:26 GMT
#78
On October 26 2017 06:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Come on INno, time to turn to legend.
^^^this!!! Rooting for Inno!
Once rode a waterslide with PartinG and TaeJa ✌
nick00bot
Profile Joined November 2010
326 Posts
October 25 2017 21:35 GMT
#79
I actually like the title, it gives the impression that all the other pieces were leading up to this, and it really does ring true in light of Inno's career. He has passed nearly every hurdle imaginable on the road to GOAT, but blizzcon is the last one in his path.

Given the post count of the haters, it honestly seems more likely that its one neurotic person creating multiple account to appear to have a consensus than it is that people are creating new accounts just to shit on the title of a post lol
SoO~Speed~Serral~$o$~Dark~Myungsik~TY~Byun~Classic
Ensiferum8
Profile Joined March 2014
Canada103 Posts
October 25 2017 21:43 GMT
#80
On October 25 2017 22:39 Olli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2017 22:38 Ej_ wrote:
On October 25 2017 22:36 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 25 2017 22:29 Olli wrote:
On October 25 2017 22:28 Charoisaur wrote:
Why does everyone have a statement about the player in the title (like TY: Second sunrise) but not Inno?


"The Road to BlizzCon" is the title of this article. Should perhaps read first.

Road to blizzcon stands there for every article. The other ones have an additional statement about the player though.

Because it's literally what the entire article is about. Excuse me, but what the actual fuck?


People who never contributed anything in their life have nothing better to do than find anything to shit on at all. What else is new?
You obviously know that he accomplished nothing in his life, because he made a comment that you didnt like.

I dont care that you are a mod, accept criticism, ore ignore if you disagree, but there is no reason to act like a douche.

Jesus, mods can be pathetic
WCS is a shitty joke, with racist rules. Support players who deserves it instead of foreigner scrubs who dont work half as much as koreans. JUN TAEYANG IS THE BEST <3
Shellshock
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States97276 Posts
October 25 2017 21:51 GMT
#81
should be higher imo
Moderatorhttp://i.imgur.com/U4xwqmD.png
TL+ Member
FrostedMiniWheats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States30730 Posts
October 25 2017 22:21 GMT
#82
Pretty much the GOAT at this point. If he wins this there is no argument whatsoever anymore.

Blizzcon has always been the one major area that he flops in.
NesTea | Mvp | MC | Leenock | Losira | Gumiho | DRG | Taeja | Jinro | Stephano | Thorzain | Sen | Idra |Polt | Bomber | Symbol | Squirtle | Fantasy | Jaedong | Maru | sOs | Seed | ByuN | ByuL | Neeb| Scarlett | Rogue | IM forever
p1cass0
Profile Joined May 2016
46 Posts
October 25 2017 22:54 GMT
#83
On October 26 2017 04:39 curufinwe_wins wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 01:16 Mun_Su wrote:
On October 26 2017 01:08 curufinwe_wins wrote:
Who had a better year than Innovation? Stats.

Overall a better year in SSL. (1st and 4th vs 1 and 5th
Overall a better year in GSL (1st, top 4, top 8, vs 1st, top 8, top 16)

Similar resumes in the other offline tournaments (Inno's win in GSL v World and Gyeonggi being counteracted by Stat's second in Gyeonggi, in the IEM Worlds, and similar consistency everywhere else.)



And yet 2 trophies against 4. Also that VSL win was a good one. so 50% winrate in finals agasint 100% this year. (also since his defeat against Soulkey, INno is around 90% in final of big tournaments, you can hardly get more clutch.


On October 26 2017 01:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On October 25 2017 23:14 beepbeeeeeeep wrote:
75% win rate vs Z.....insane

And he still maintains that Zerg is OP. Innovation you crazy



That is just random numbers.


I know people are kinda "obsessed" with titles... but consistency is much more impressive to me than title wins.

There is a reason why Stats is first in WCS standing.

But anyways, if you want to say that only Stats could challenge the year Innovation has had, that would be a fair assessment. After those two the next best is way down the list. But I just found it rather ludicrous to claim that Innovation had far and away the best year (or even close to the most consistent year, which just isn't true).


What Stats really lacks to be the Player Of the Year (before the Finals) is his winrate, aka the overall performance on the most basic level. He has a winrate over 10% below INno and 350 less Aligulac points, which is significant (at least two levels gap).

After all, Stats has half the trophies, two levels behind in the basic statistic, but only a very slight advantage in the middle (GSLvsWorld contributes no WCS points, but the champion worths at least 3000). In this case I won't say Stats has a more consistent year.
PuddleZerg
Profile Joined August 2015
United States82 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 23:14:57
October 25 2017 23:14 GMT
#84
On October 25 2017 22:39 Olli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2017 22:38 Ej_ wrote:
On October 25 2017 22:36 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 25 2017 22:29 Olli wrote:
On October 25 2017 22:28 Charoisaur wrote:
Why does everyone have a statement about the player in the title (like TY: Second sunrise) but not Inno?


"The Road to BlizzCon" is the title of this article. Should perhaps read first.

Road to blizzcon stands there for every article. The other ones have an additional statement about the player though.

Because it's literally what the entire article is about. Excuse me, but what the actual fuck?


People who never contributed anything in their life have nothing better to do than find anything to shit on at all. What else is new?

Is that what people told you you were like when you said you wanted to be a writer?
"Weapons grade autism" - Destiny
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-25 23:51:20
October 25 2017 23:30 GMT
#85
On October 25 2017 22:48 Charoisaur wrote:
The thing that confused me was that TY for example has the title "TY - Second Sunrise - rank 7 - Road to Blizzcon"

The road to blizzcon in the end is missing in this title which is why I thought it was just written before the rank instead and the statement about the player is missing.
No need to get overly defensive here.

This is as valid and respectful comment/criticism one can make. Sometimes I wonder why TL staff and writers are too sensitive and defensive to this. It is clear as day, others have a sort of blurby run on on their title (in this format: Name: hype subtitle - rank - Road to Blizzcon). INnoVation's does not, and it is a fair question to ask why? Did the writers and editors forget? Then correct it! There is no way, if only for the sake of consistency, that the current title is satisfactory. It's not even a matter of taste. We are just holding the article to the standard you imposed upon yourselves. (I recall there was an article earlier with a controversial title as well - something about TB Shoutcraft wool pulled over our eyes. With or without malice intended, the title creates confusion and unintended inaccuracy, and should be edited. Any 2-bit editor knows that first thing on the job.)

Now to the important part, despite the deficiency in the title, the content itself was an awesome read. It could use some editing help to make it less bloated and more precise with language, but still artful without sounding specious. Great content though. Thanks!
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
October 25 2017 23:33 GMT
#86
Poll: Right now, before Blizzcon, is INnoVation GOAT already?

No (59)
 
54%

Yes (51)
 
46%

110 total votes

Your vote: Right now, before Blizzcon, is INnoVation GOAT already?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No



Poll: If INnoVation wins Blizzcon, does he become undisputed GOAT?

Yes (76)
 
68%

No (36)
 
32%

112 total votes

Your vote: If INnoVation wins Blizzcon, does he become undisputed GOAT?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No

Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-26 00:23:47
October 26 2017 00:16 GMT
#87
Currently, a legitimate argument can be made for multiple people being GOAT. Inno is one of them, but there are others too. Artosis, for instance, was rhetorically asking if Inno was GOAT after he won GSL for the third time and tied Mvp.

If Inno wins Blizzcon though, I can virtually guarantee that Tastosis and the rest of the casters will proclaim Inno the undisputed GOAT and anoint him on spot, right there on the grand stage at Blizzcon while he lifts the trophy and confetti swirls all around.

Should that occur, anyone denying that Inno is GOAT after that will just be inviting public ridicule. Nobody wants to listen to dusty quibbling about the long-forgotten achievements of long-retired players, not when there is a World Champion being crowned atop a hill of other trophies after having beaten the best players in the world on the biggest stage. Standing against all the weight of hype and momentum in a moment like that is impossible.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
October 26 2017 00:22 GMT
#88
On October 26 2017 09:16 pvsnp wrote:
Currently, a legitimate argument can be made for multiple people being GOAT. Inno is one of them, but there are others too. Artosis, for instance, was rhetorically asking if Inno was GOAT after he won GSL for the third time and tied Mvp.

If Inno wins Blizzcon though, I can virtually guarantee that Tastosis and the rest of the casters will proclaim Inno the undisputed GOAT and anoint him on spot, right there on the grand stage at Blizzcon while he lifts the trophy and confetti swirls all around.

Should that occur, anyone denying that Inno is GOAT after that will just be inviting public ridicule. Standing against all the weight of hype and momentum in a moment like that is impossible.

Good point. Right now, who is INnoVation still competing against for GOAT?
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-26 00:30:16
October 26 2017 00:25 GMT
#89
On October 26 2017 09:22 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 09:16 pvsnp wrote:
Currently, a legitimate argument can be made for multiple people being GOAT. Inno is one of them, but there are others too. Artosis, for instance, was rhetorically asking if Inno was GOAT after he won GSL for the third time and tied Mvp.

If Inno wins Blizzcon though, I can virtually guarantee that Tastosis and the rest of the casters will proclaim Inno the undisputed GOAT and anoint him on spot, right there on the grand stage at Blizzcon while he lifts the trophy and confetti swirls all around.

Should that occur, anyone denying that Inno is GOAT after that will just be inviting public ridicule. Standing against all the weight of hype and momentum in a moment like that is impossible.

Good point. Right now, who is INnoVation still competing against for GOAT?

Most everyone that doesn't think Inno is GOAT are instead supporting Mvp. A few others claim Life, but he never had enough Starleagues to be GOAT imo.

Blizzcon is Inno's change to seize the crown of GOAT in dramatic fashion, while all the world watches in awe, but it's hardly as though Mvp and/or Life are still adding trophies to their cabinets. Even if Inno doesn't win Blizzcon, he just has to bide his time and keep winning. At his current pace, becoming GOAT is inevitable.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
October 26 2017 00:38 GMT
#90
Rogue can totally upset him though, if they ever meet in the playoffs or finals
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
Morbidius
Profile Joined November 2010
Brazil3449 Posts
October 26 2017 01:13 GMT
#91
Innovation can't be the GOAT because competition died, all he can be is the king of ashes.
Has foreign StarCraft hit rock bottom?
col_jung
Profile Joined October 2017
139 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-26 01:28:06
October 26 2017 01:22 GMT
#92
Personally hoping for a INno vs Dark or Rogue finals, but Stats has been on point lately too.

Ps met him at GSL a month ago. Very little emotion in our quick exchange.. machine ftw haha.

Pic with INno and Dark: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10159478166455319
Video:


Sorry for posting this around so much. Meeting some of these players irl has been a dream for me.
FrostedMiniWheats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States30730 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-26 05:17:00
October 26 2017 05:13 GMT
#93
On October 26 2017 08:33 Twinkle Toes wrote:
[+ Show Spoiler +


Poll: Right now, before Blizzcon, is INnoVation GOAT already?

No (59)
 
54%

Yes (51)
 
46%

110 total votes

Your vote: Right now, before Blizzcon, is INnoVation GOAT already?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No



Poll: If INnoVation wins Blizzcon, does he become undisputed GOAT?

Yes (76)
 
68%

No (36)
 
32%

112 total votes

Your vote: If INnoVation wins Blizzcon, does he become undisputed GOAT?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No






Only argument I see is for Life mayyybe being over him atm.

Life was far more impactful in terms of innovation, has a slight advantage in peak performance (that late 2014- quarter 2 2015 streak was unreal), had his heyday when the competition was more fierce and has won 1/2 Blizzcon finals. Still, have to lean towards the Machine at this point though.

As for Mvp, as much as I love him, he has no shot in hell at being #1. He loses out big time in terms of longevity. Bogus has been a top-tier player for 3 iterations of sc2 now and is rapidly acquiring premiere wins.
NesTea | Mvp | MC | Leenock | Losira | Gumiho | DRG | Taeja | Jinro | Stephano | Thorzain | Sen | Idra |Polt | Bomber | Symbol | Squirtle | Fantasy | Jaedong | Maru | sOs | Seed | ByuN | ByuL | Neeb| Scarlett | Rogue | IM forever
ParksonVN
Profile Joined October 2015
Australia370 Posts
October 26 2017 06:03 GMT
#94
On October 26 2017 10:13 Morbidius wrote:
Innovation can't be the GOAT because competition died, all he can be is the king of ashes.


What are you even talking about ? Inno was dominating when the game was the most competitive (2013-2015). It'd be more appropriate if you talk about MVP that way since during his era, he was competing against much less opponents than guys like Rain, Life, Parting, Dark, sOs, Classic ... i can't even name them all. They are much better than Fruit dealer, Nestee or MMA, period.
ParksonVN
Profile Joined October 2015
Australia370 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-26 06:09:27
October 26 2017 06:07 GMT
#95
On October 26 2017 14:13 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 08:33 Twinkle Toes wrote:
[+ Show Spoiler +


Poll: Right now, before Blizzcon, is INnoVation GOAT already?

No (59)
 
54%

Yes (51)
 
46%

110 total votes

Your vote: Right now, before Blizzcon, is INnoVation GOAT already?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No



Poll: If INnoVation wins Blizzcon, does he become undisputed GOAT?

Yes (76)
 
68%

No (36)
 
32%

112 total votes

Your vote: If INnoVation wins Blizzcon, does he become undisputed GOAT?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No






Only argument I see is for Life mayyybe being over him atm.

Life was far more impactful in terms of innovation, has a slight advantage in peak performance (that late 2014- quarter 2 2015 streak was unreal), had his heyday when the competition was more fierce and has won 1/2 Blizzcon finals. Still, have to lean towards the Machine at this point though.

As for Mvp, as much as I love him, he has no shot in hell at being #1. He loses out big time in terms of longevity. Bogus has been a top-tier player for 3 iterations of sc2 now and is rapidly acquiring premiere wins.


What was Life's innovation tbh ? He invented nothing but mass ling plus very aggressive play that not many Zerg players were able to copy. On other hand, Inno's 3CC into parade push became gold standard of TvZ for all levels of play while his double Raven opening is also one of the most popular TvT build atm. Talking about Life's day, even when he was on peak, he still went toe to toe with Inno while 2012-2013 InnoVation was so far ahead of any Zerg player. Remember Inno won 2 GSLs and WCS finals in the highest skill era.
Riner1212
Profile Joined November 2012
United States337 Posts
October 26 2017 06:11 GMT
#96
On October 26 2017 00:57 Penev wrote:
(Z)Life was robbed



Life robbed his own career and dug his own grave, he was not robbed by anyone.
Sjow "pretty ez life as protoss"
DSh1
Profile Joined April 2017
292 Posts
October 26 2017 06:27 GMT
#97
On October 26 2017 08:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2017 22:48 Charoisaur wrote:
The thing that confused me was that TY for example has the title "TY - Second Sunrise - rank 7 - Road to Blizzcon"

The road to blizzcon in the end is missing in this title which is why I thought it was just written before the rank instead and the statement about the player is missing.
No need to get overly defensive here.

This is as valid and respectful comment/criticism one can make. Sometimes I wonder why TL staff and writers are too sensitive and defensive to this. It is clear as day, others have a sort of blurby run on on their title (in this format: Name: hype subtitle - rank - Road to Blizzcon). INnoVation's does not, and it is a fair question to ask why? Did the writers and editors forget? Then correct it! There is no way, if only for the sake of consistency, that the current title is satisfactory. It's not even a matter of taste. We are just holding the article to the standard you imposed upon yourselves. (I recall there was an article earlier with a controversial title as well - something about TB Shoutcraft wool pulled over our eyes. With or without malice intended, the title creates confusion and unintended inaccuracy, and should be edited. Any 2-bit editor knows that first thing on the job.)

Now to the important part, despite the deficiency in the title, the content itself was an awesome read. It could use some editing help to make it less bloated and more precise with language, but still artful without sounding specious. Great content though. Thanks!


Basically this. All of it.
Very few a are not happy about getting content this good, but valid points are still valid points even if otherwise the article is gold. I doubt you didn't realize this inconsistency yourself. Probably even asked yourself before publishing if it is a good idea to break the pattern for the reason you explained. So I dunno why your reply to criticism isn't s.th. like: I noticed it is inconsistent, but after careful deliberation I found it this way better or so... . Otherwise it feels like you just want to quarrel.

On GOAT. How I see it: The game is still alive so there is no GOAT (ALL time) for me.
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
October 26 2017 06:35 GMT
#98
On October 26 2017 09:16 pvsnp wrote:
Currently, a legitimate argument can be made for multiple people being GOAT. Inno is one of them, but there are others too. Artosis, for instance, was rhetorically asking if Inno was GOAT after he won GSL for the third time and tied Mvp.

If Inno wins Blizzcon though, I can virtually guarantee that Tastosis and the rest of the casters will proclaim Inno the undisputed GOAT and anoint him on spot, right there on the grand stage at Blizzcon while he lifts the trophy and confetti swirls all around.

Should that occur, anyone denying that Inno is GOAT after that will just be inviting public ridicule. Nobody wants to listen to dusty quibbling about the long-forgotten achievements of long-retired players, not when there is a World Champion being crowned atop a hill of other trophies after having beaten the best players in the world on the biggest stage. Standing against all the weight of hype and momentum in a moment like that is impossible.



That gave me... sparksin my eyes (to stay polite), would be awesome. INno' is used to do shit at Blizzcon tho (I'll always remember the crash of the hype train against.. a Duck in 2013 T_T , or the sad lose 3-1 in quarter finals)
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
ProKey
Profile Joined October 2017
3 Posts
October 26 2017 08:02 GMT
#99
Wow. The amount of douchebags saying they like the title. It's amazing how d-bags will just accept anything as it is given. The other guy had it better a couple articles back. Breaking down the top 3 of each race. Mentioning inno ruling terrans with an iron fist. Hell, even that would be a better title.

Still have another 2 weeks "raod 2 blixxcn"

User was temp banned for this post.
$0$
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
October 26 2017 08:30 GMT
#100
On October 26 2017 17:02 ProKey wrote:
Wow. The amount of douchebags saying they like the title. It's amazing how d-bags will just accept anything as it is given. The other guy had it better a couple articles back. Breaking down the top 3 of each race. Mentioning inno ruling terrans with an iron fist. Hell, even that would be a better title.

Still have another 2 weeks "raod 2 blixxcn"

I legit LOLed
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
yOngKIN
Profile Joined May 2012
Korea (North)656 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-26 08:32:35
October 26 2017 08:31 GMT
#101
Writers: Olli, CosmicSpiral
Editor: CosmicSpiral, Olli

I work in the publication industry and this article highlights why the above is taboo.
I will withhold judgment on the quality of the content, but let me point out a few whoopsies:

kept their vestigial weaknesses
Nature abhors a vacuum
Ardent KeSPA fans hyped him as the vanguard of an army of superior competitors (which turned out to be clairvoyant).
he entered the chiaroscuro stage of his career.
But then came 2017 and somehow, whether through introspection or infernal magic, all his flaws were washed away.
when you take into account the Balkanization of the international scene
In a sense his first paradigm of StarCraft was correct—success was the byproduct of self-mastery. The difference between shedding flaws and indulging in them was an enigma back then, and it took him half a decade to fully dedicate himself to the former.
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28453 Posts
October 26 2017 08:55 GMT
#102
On October 26 2017 15:11 Riner1212 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 00:57 Penev wrote:
(Z)Life was robbed



Life robbed his own career and dug his own grave, he was not robbed by anyone.

you don't know that

also: lol
I Protoss winner, could it be?
Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
October 26 2017 09:11 GMT
#103
Thank you Olli for all the great content I enjoyed reading each one.
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
October 26 2017 11:30 GMT
#104
On October 26 2017 17:55 Penev wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 15:11 Riner1212 wrote:
On October 26 2017 00:57 Penev wrote:
(Z)Life was robbed



Life robbed his own career and dug his own grave, he was not robbed by anyone.

you don't know that

also: lol


C'mon this is not the subject. Let's hype or clash INno, just INno.
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
October 26 2017 12:34 GMT
#105
I really hope Inno does not disappoint. I want the GOAT story to be a thing in sc2. And Inno can be the GOAT, if he wins this and then keeps up a good form with a few more wins next year.

No WoL player can ever be the GOAT imo, that's like Boxer being the GOAT of of BW, just no, it was too early, when the game was not fully figured out and the competition not the fiercest.

With Life gone, only Inno can be the GOAT and he will be I think.

Thanks for all the articles, great reads once again!
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
DieuCure
Profile Joined January 2017
France3713 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-26 12:54:04
October 26 2017 12:45 GMT
#106
Olli gave up because of the spam about the title. And he is right. Even if it's sad.

Seriously INno's (and Neeb s) fan boy aren't really smart.

Instead of whining about meaningless things like the rank ( we can't all agree) or the title ( lol ) you should appreciate what you just read, you divas.

Every loss is hurting now that the community is small.
TL+ Member
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
October 26 2017 12:49 GMT
#107
On October 26 2017 21:45 DieuCure wrote:
Olli gave up because of the spam about the title. And he is right. Even if it's sad.

Seriously INno's fan boy aren't really smart.



They weren't true fan imo. They were just here for the narrative. They would have shitted upon that tittle no matter who was the first in the TL ranking. ALso nearly half of the shitposter are the same multi-account user so.....
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
DieuCure
Profile Joined January 2017
France3713 Posts
October 26 2017 12:52 GMT
#108
On October 26 2017 21:49 Mun_Su wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 21:45 DieuCure wrote:
Olli gave up because of the spam about the title. And he is right. Even if it's sad.

Seriously INno's fan boy aren't really smart.



They weren't true fan imo. They were just here for the narrative. They would have shitted upon that tittle no matter who was the first in the TL ranking. ALso nearly half of the shitposter are the same multi-account user so.....


B b but I wanted to see "GOAT" in the title

Olli so biased

I can't enjoy the article right now

...
TL+ Member
TheLittleOtter
Profile Joined December 2013
Norway11 Posts
October 26 2017 14:41 GMT
#109
Great writeup, Olli!!

TL has been my go-to place for great sc2 coverage since I discovered the game, and it will continue as long as you guys still have the motivation to do it

Thumbs up to everyone who makes content for the sc2 scene, I find it invaluable <3
AcerMMA will rule the world!
Pandain
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States12985 Posts
October 26 2017 15:03 GMT
#110
On October 26 2017 21:34 Musicus wrote:
I really hope Inno does not disappoint. I want the GOAT story to be a thing in sc2. And Inno can be the GOAT, if he wins this and then keeps up a good form with a few more wins next year.

No WoL player can ever be the GOAT imo, that's like Boxer being the GOAT of of BW, just no, it was too early, when the game was not fully figured out and the competition not the fiercest.

With Life gone, only Inno can be the GOAT and he will be I think.

Thanks for all the articles, great reads once again!


I agree with you, though we should never discount MVPs greatness. What he did multiple times throughout his career was remarkable, even up until 2013 when he took inno to game 5 .


But more importantly I agree with you in that I often times root for the stories more than I root for certain players. Often times when a player is doing well I root for them, because I've always wanted a bonjwa figure in sc2, though we've clearly seen that's never going to happen. Same reason I'm rooting for inno, to cement his GOAT status with what would be his biggest win yet.

Really though there are so many great stories happening. Soos perpetual search for redemption, neebs flashes of greatness, Zerg upstarts serral and elazer. From the Korean side, any would be a great story for a victory. We could see TY capping off his best year with another huge prizepool, rogue cementing end of the year dominance,. Dark climbing back up to the top, stats incredible consistency. I'm rooting for a historical blizzcon, not just a great one.
Trizztein
Profile Joined August 2014
Canada45 Posts
October 26 2017 15:14 GMT
#111
First and foremost, thank you so much for still doing these articles. Will keep reading as long as SC2 remains the main RTS out there I'm interested in. Great read as always.

As for the title, well, honestly I wouldn't even have noticed the subtitle was lacking if it wasn't for the comments here haha, but I certainly support/understand some of the criticism tho.

Although I'm a terran player, I'm rooting for Stats for this year's Blizzcon. I really like the guy and feel naturally drawn to players who perform with very great consistency in every tournament (make deep runs although not earning the most tropheys necessarily) like himself and Nerchio. I just don't believe in Inno when it comes to runs in Anaheim basically, just too many disappointments there in the past (series vs Duckdeok, Taeja, Life, his absence from top 8 last year ... ). I'm almost wondering at this point if there is something about the practice environment there, something about the jet lag from Korea to California, about the tournament settings etc. which just don't fit him. I know he can and has performed well outside of Korea, but in California, ever? Instruct me if I'm missing something here, pls.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12761 Posts
October 26 2017 15:38 GMT
#112
On October 26 2017 21:34 Musicus wrote:
I really hope Inno does not disappoint. I want the GOAT story to be a thing in sc2. And Inno can be the GOAT, if he wins this and then keeps up a good form with a few more wins next year.

No WoL player can ever be the GOAT imo, that's like Boxer being the GOAT of of BW, just no, it was too early, when the game was not fully figured out and the competition not the fiercest.

With Life gone, only Inno can be the GOAT and he will be I think.

Thanks for all the articles, great reads once again!

? WoL, HotS and LotV are three different games.
Imo this is quite simple: Mvp is the GOAT of WoL, Life of HotS, and INno might be the one of LotV if he wins blizzcon.
WriterMaru
DieuCure
Profile Joined January 2017
France3713 Posts
October 26 2017 16:01 GMT
#113
Rofl, Mvp's fans trying a last move
TL+ Member
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
October 26 2017 16:07 GMT
#114
On October 27 2017 01:01 DieuCure wrote:
Rofl, Mvp's fans trying a last move


Yeah, now we have a greatest of all time (of 2y) of the second extension, a goat for the first, INno is goat for Lotv Pacth XX, after next big major patch we'll have a new Goat
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-26 17:26:54
October 26 2017 17:18 GMT
#115
On October 27 2017 00:38 Poopi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 21:34 Musicus wrote:
I really hope Inno does not disappoint. I want the GOAT story to be a thing in sc2. And Inno can be the GOAT, if he wins this and then keeps up a good form with a few more wins next year.

No WoL player can ever be the GOAT imo, that's like Boxer being the GOAT of of BW, just no, it was too early, when the game was not fully figured out and the competition not the fiercest.

With Life gone, only Inno can be the GOAT and he will be I think.

Thanks for all the articles, great reads once again!

? WoL, HotS and LotV are three different games.
Imo this is quite simple: Mvp is the GOAT of WoL, Life of HotS, and INno might be the one of LotV if he wins blizzcon.


What makes Life the GOAT of HoTS exactly? iirc he only won a single korean tournament over the span of the 3 years. People have selective memory of him, for most of HoTS he was unimpressive (in korea). And if you say he's the GOAT because of foreign cups then sOs and Taeja have to be considered as well

MVP is the GOAT of wol, Inno is already the GOAT of LoTV, but HoTS is up for debate. sOs won blizzcon twice, Classic/Inno/Maru all won 2 starleagues, Life and Taeja won a lot of foreign cups, Zest in 2014 was basically the same as Inno is this year, asssuming Inno doesn't win blizzcon
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12761 Posts
October 26 2017 17:39 GMT
#116
On October 27 2017 02:18 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2017 00:38 Poopi wrote:
On October 26 2017 21:34 Musicus wrote:
I really hope Inno does not disappoint. I want the GOAT story to be a thing in sc2. And Inno can be the GOAT, if he wins this and then keeps up a good form with a few more wins next year.

No WoL player can ever be the GOAT imo, that's like Boxer being the GOAT of of BW, just no, it was too early, when the game was not fully figured out and the competition not the fiercest.

With Life gone, only Inno can be the GOAT and he will be I think.

Thanks for all the articles, great reads once again!

? WoL, HotS and LotV are three different games.
Imo this is quite simple: Mvp is the GOAT of WoL, Life of HotS, and INno might be the one of LotV if he wins blizzcon.


What makes Life the GOAT of HoTS exactly? iirc he only won a single korean tournament over the span of the 3 years. People have selective memory of him, for most of HoTS he was unimpressive (in korea). And if you say he's the GOAT because of foreign cups then sOs and Taeja have to be considered as well

MVP is the GOAT of wol, Inno is already the GOAT of LoTV, but HoTS is up for debate. sOs won blizzcon twice, Classic/Inno/Maru all won 2 starleagues, Life and Taeja won a lot of foreign cups, Zest in 2014 was basically the same as Inno is this year, asssuming Inno doesn't win blizzcon

Idk I didn't follow much HotS, why are there people praising Life as a potential GOAT over Mvp then? O_o

Point is, the comparison to BW is not applicable directly because there have been multiple extensions and LotV and WoL in particular require different skill sets. Mvp probably wouldn't have stand a chance even healthy on LotV due to lackluster mechanics.
WriterMaru
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-26 17:54:42
October 26 2017 17:50 GMT
#117
On October 27 2017 02:39 Poopi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2017 02:18 Fango wrote:
On October 27 2017 00:38 Poopi wrote:
On October 26 2017 21:34 Musicus wrote:
I really hope Inno does not disappoint. I want the GOAT story to be a thing in sc2. And Inno can be the GOAT, if he wins this and then keeps up a good form with a few more wins next year.

No WoL player can ever be the GOAT imo, that's like Boxer being the GOAT of of BW, just no, it was too early, when the game was not fully figured out and the competition not the fiercest.

With Life gone, only Inno can be the GOAT and he will be I think.

Thanks for all the articles, great reads once again!

? WoL, HotS and LotV are three different games.
Imo this is quite simple: Mvp is the GOAT of WoL, Life of HotS, and INno might be the one of LotV if he wins blizzcon.


What makes Life the GOAT of HoTS exactly? iirc he only won a single korean tournament over the span of the 3 years. People have selective memory of him, for most of HoTS he was unimpressive (in korea). And if you say he's the GOAT because of foreign cups then sOs and Taeja have to be considered as well

MVP is the GOAT of wol, Inno is already the GOAT of LoTV, but HoTS is up for debate. sOs won blizzcon twice, Classic/Inno/Maru all won 2 starleagues, Life and Taeja won a lot of foreign cups, Zest in 2014 was basically the same as Inno is this year, asssuming Inno doesn't win blizzcon

Idk I didn't follow much HotS, why are there people praising Life as a potential GOAT over Mvp then? O_o

Point is, the comparison to BW is not applicable directly because there have been multiple extensions and LotV and WoL in particular require different skill sets. Mvp probably wouldn't have stand a chance even healthy on LotV due to lackluster mechanics.

Because they are Life fanboys, ofc.

While Life was certainly a very accomplished player, he never had enough Korean trophies for my taste. Better than Taeja, to be sure, but still most of LIfe's trophies were from foreign tournaments.

Because I view Starleague trophies as the gold standard for measuring GOAT, I never really considered Life (2 Starleagues) in the running for GOAT when we already had Mvp (3 Starleagues) and Inno (4 Starleagues).
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
tantalus
Profile Joined June 2012
69 Posts
October 26 2017 19:14 GMT
#118
This was a great article, I really enjoyed how you sum up INnoVation's path to this point and how this could basically be the cherry on top of his entire career. I think of anyone else on this list, his was the one where it was actually necessary for you to build up how he got here and I think it justifies over half the article dealing with his career pre-2017. Thanks for all these write ups everyone.
washikie
Profile Joined February 2011
United States752 Posts
October 26 2017 19:20 GMT
#119
although innovation is realy strong right now I'm pretty well set in my prediction that rouge win this tournament. After seeing rouge utterly stomp ino in the super tournament I don't think ino can beat rouge if they meet, he has to hope rouge gets sniped in a zvz. Im hoping inno finds a way though.
"when life gives Hero lemons he makes carriers" -Artosis
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28453 Posts
October 26 2017 19:37 GMT
#120
On October 26 2017 20:30 Mun_Su wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 17:55 Penev wrote:
On October 26 2017 15:11 Riner1212 wrote:
On October 26 2017 00:57 Penev wrote:
(Z)Life was robbed



Life robbed his own career and dug his own grave, he was not robbed by anyone.

you don't know that

also: lol


C'mon this is not the subject. Let's hype or clash INno, just INno.

what? someone could've taken his lunch money one time

seriously ppl stop going full romanian -_-




I Protoss winner, could it be?
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
October 26 2017 19:52 GMT
#121
On October 27 2017 04:20 washikie wrote:
although innovation is realy strong right now I'm pretty well set in my prediction that rouge win this tournament. After seeing rouge utterly stomp ino in the super tournament I don't think ino can beat rouge if they meet, he has to hope rouge gets sniped in a zvz. Im hoping inno finds a way though.



Man I don't call 3-2 a stomp ! Also mech game were some long painful 20min animation death but INno's bio was quite something, despite a slighty zerg favored meta. I think that if he got Rogue for ro8 with a week of prep he can do really well against him.

@Penev :
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-26 20:17:14
October 26 2017 20:15 GMT
#122
On October 27 2017 04:20 washikie wrote:
although innovation is realy strong right now I'm pretty well set in my prediction that rouge win this tournament. After seeing rouge utterly stomp ino in the super tournament I don't think ino can beat rouge if they meet, he has to hope rouge gets sniped in a zvz. Im hoping inno finds a way though.


He didn't really get stomped. He went 2-1 in non-mech games against Rogue. Would probably win a bo5 if he just played bio every game
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
October 27 2017 02:04 GMT
#123
On October 26 2017 21:45 DieuCure wrote:
Olli gave up because of the spam about the title. And he is right. Even if it's sad.

Seriously INno's (and Neeb s) fan boy aren't really smart.

Instead of whining about meaningless things like the rank ( we can't all agree) or the title ( lol ) you should appreciate what you just read, you divas.

Every loss is hurting now that the community is small.

It would have been easily and swiftly avoided had Olli responded as any reasonable writer and editor would - edit the damn title. There is an obvious problem with it, it's no biggie, it happens all the time. To double down on it and even engage in ad hom attack with others just derailed the entire thing.

On topic, are people still seriously considering Life as a goat candidate? He had a meteoric HOTS run yeah, but thats it. MVP and INno especially have done better far longer.
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
FrostedMiniWheats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States30730 Posts
October 27 2017 05:11 GMT
#124
On October 27 2017 11:04 Twinkle Toes wrote:
On topic, are people still seriously considering Life as a goat candidate? He had a meteoric HOTS run yeah, but thats it. MVP and INno especially have done better far longer.


Not true. Life had a frightening peak near the end of WoL too. He was a royal roader for a reason:

His Stats

GSL, Blizzard Cup (the most rigorous iteration of it too), Iron Squid, and MLG Fall all were won by him between q3 2012 and the q1 2013.
NesTea | Mvp | MC | Leenock | Losira | Gumiho | DRG | Taeja | Jinro | Stephano | Thorzain | Sen | Idra |Polt | Bomber | Symbol | Squirtle | Fantasy | Jaedong | Maru | sOs | Seed | ByuN | ByuL | Neeb| Scarlett | Rogue | IM forever
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
October 27 2017 05:22 GMT
#125
On October 27 2017 14:11 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2017 11:04 Twinkle Toes wrote:
On topic, are people still seriously considering Life as a goat candidate? He had a meteoric HOTS run yeah, but thats it. MVP and INno especially have done better far longer.


Not true. Life had a frightening peak near the end of WoL too. He was a royal roader for a reason:

His Stats

GSL, Blizzard Cup (the most rigorous iteration of it too), Iron Squid, and MLG Fall all were won by him between q3 2012 and the q1 2013.

I see now. What a waste of potential
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9362 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-27 07:29:26
October 27 2017 07:13 GMT
#126
On October 27 2017 11:04 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2017 21:45 DieuCure wrote:
Olli gave up because of the spam about the title. And he is right. Even if it's sad.

Seriously INno's (and Neeb s) fan boy aren't really smart.

Instead of whining about meaningless things like the rank ( we can't all agree) or the title ( lol ) you should appreciate what you just read, you divas.

Every loss is hurting now that the community is small.

It would have been easily and swiftly avoided had Olli responded as any reasonable writer and editor would - edit the damn title. There is an obvious problem with it, it's no biggie, it happens all the time. To double down on it and even engage in ad hom attack with others just derailed the entire thing.

On topic, are people still seriously considering Life as a goat candidate? He had a meteoric HOTS run yeah, but thats it. MVP and INno especially have done better far longer.


Yeh I think that was probably more an example of a guy who was already just about to go over the edge based on the lack of long-term positive feedback in relation to the work he put in. And when he received what he considered to be not positive/slightly negative feedback on the Innovartion article he snapped. I can definitely relate to that though it obviously would have been easier to just edit the title.

Anyway, personally I think its good if this will result in changes to future content, because narrative style articles are only interesting if you haven't followed the player before. And at this point in time, 95% of the readers know everything in the articles.

I much rather prefer some more indepth-analysis that attempts to explain why that player is exactly # rank 5 instead of #rank 8. Here you can look at mechanical or strategical leaks the player has shown over the past few months. And combine that with some hard data from Aligulac.

I am sure that if you ask Aligulac they could provide you some that looks at the win/rate of the player over the past 2-3 months against players of X skill level. That's a ton more interesting than unfiltered win/rate for the entire of 2017.

When it comes to past history/narrative, I would tell it in relation to where he exactly improved as a player over the past 1-3 years (e.g. no longer losses to early game all-ins/improved his multitasking etc.).

This type of analysis is ofc very time-consuming and does require more analytical skills, but is the only type of content I care about. And I am sure if would ask some of the pro's/casters to assists you with analysis they would help you in the proces.

Generally speaking I get the impression that most of TL's writers are aspiring writers/journalists rather than people who write because they believe they through their analytical skills have opinions on players that are worth sharing.

And I think that is something TL should change going forward (if they want more positive feedback/views). I am sure that there are master league + players who has decent writing skills and could be interested in making free analytical pieces on players.

Most "analytical" content in Starcraft has historically been focussed on builds/strategies and not on analyzing players which I find to be a shame and it is in sharp contrast to the LOL-scene.
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
October 27 2017 07:25 GMT
#127
On October 27 2017 16:13 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2017 11:04 Twinkle Toes wrote:
On October 26 2017 21:45 DieuCure wrote:
Olli gave up because of the spam about the title. And he is right. Even if it's sad.

Seriously INno's (and Neeb s) fan boy aren't really smart.

Instead of whining about meaningless things like the rank ( we can't all agree) or the title ( lol ) you should appreciate what you just read, you divas.

Every loss is hurting now that the community is small.

It would have been easily and swiftly avoided had Olli responded as any reasonable writer and editor would - edit the damn title. There is an obvious problem with it, it's no biggie, it happens all the time. To double down on it and even engage in ad hom attack with others just derailed the entire thing.

On topic, are people still seriously considering Life as a goat candidate? He had a meteoric HOTS run yeah, but thats it. MVP and INno especially have done better far longer.


Yeh I think that was probably more an example of a guy who was already just about to go over the edge based on the lack of long-term positive feedback in relation to the work he put in. And when he received what he considered to be not positive/slightly negative feedback he just snapped.

Anyway, personally I think its good if this will result in changes to future content, because narrative style articles are only interesting if you haven't followed the player before. And at this point in time, 95% of the readers know everything in the articles.

I much rather prefer some more indepth-analysis that attempts to explain why that player is exactly # rank 5 instead of #rank 8. Here you can look at mechanical or strategical leaks the player has shown over the past few months. And combine that with some hard data from Aligulac.

I am sure that if you ask Aligulac they could provide you some that looks at the win/rate of the player over the past 2-3 months against players of X skill level. That's a ton more interesting than unfiltered win/rate for the entire of 2017.

When it comes to past history/narrative, I would tell it in relation to where he exactly improved as a player over the past 1-3 years (e.g. no longer losses to early game all-ins/improved his multitasking etc.).

This type of analysis is ofc very time-consuming and does require more analytical skills, but is the only type of content I care about. And I am sure if would ask some of the pro's/casters to assists you with analysis they would you in the proces.

Generally speaking I get the impression that most of TL's writers are aspiring writiers/journalists rather than people who write because they believe they through their analytical skills can provide content that is worth reading.

And I think that is something TL should change going forward (if they want more positive feedback/views). I am sure that somewhere out there there is a master league + player who has decent writing skills and could be interested in making free analytical pieces on players.

Most "analytical" content in Starcraft is focussed on builds/strategies and not on analyzing players which I find to be a shame and it is in sharp contrast to the LOL-scene.


You're talking about TL Strat, a division that's now dead because nobody cared about their pieces enough to warrant the effort. I'm a masters league Protoss, I could write analysis about Protoss all day. But the interest in in-game happenings has always proven to be mininal.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9362 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-27 07:52:35
October 27 2017 07:35 GMT
#128
Read my last quote:

Most "analytical" content in Starcraft is focussed on builds/strategies and not on analyzing players which I find to be a shame and it is in sharp contrast to the LOL-scene.


You are misunderstanding how analytical content could be done. Esport viewers do not care care about what the best builds or strat are (which is what the strat forum is about).

However, what would be interesting is looking at past VODS of players and identifying where they stand out in relation to other players of that race. What potential weakness's does that player have? How has his opponent usually played against that type of player?

Is it likely he will be exposed against player Y or throughout the tournament? And then base the arguments on 20 second clips from youtube showing some examples of either mechanical weakness's or the player dying to chese etc.

Make content that informs the average viewer when it comes to who is likely to win (and roughly by how much) and WHY. Not content that tells the story about who he was 6 years ago or what the best build orders are. And don't just mention facts about the players for the sake of it. Only mention facts/the types of openings if you can contextualize it to how it impacts the match outcome.

In LOL the vast majority of content that is upvoted on the reddit is that type of content. In Starcraft this type of content has never received a chance - instead we have been fed up with narrative-based content.

I find that I always am the most interested in watching matches when I - based on research - have opinions on how I think the match should play out. Because then I can see whether I was right or wrong in my hypothesis. So as writers your job should be to give the readers some type of same experience.

Convince me that player Y will actually beat player X even though player X may appear as the better player to the average viewer. If you do that, I become invested in seeing whether your argumentation and prediction actually turns out to be correct.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9362 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-27 08:02:43
October 27 2017 07:55 GMT
#129
Just to expand a bit further on this comment by me:

And don't just mention facts about the players for the sake of it. Only mention facts/the types of openings if you can contextualize it to how it impacts the match outcome.


I will refer to the very indepth preview written here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/508358-code-s-finals-preview-ty-vs-zest-s1-2016

You go very detailed on builds, but it's not apparent why the average esports viewer should care.

Instead I would build the article up differently, like this: (just made up the arguments)

"Zest will get at least 1-2 "free wins" against Ty from the early game! The reason is that he uses builds Z and X And ty normally reacts to it w/ build Y which which losses 50 % of the time due to ZXY."

With that type of writing you immediately grab the viewers attention because you make a bold claim. And then you use strategic analysis to support it. Discussion can then be centered around whether your argumentation is legit or what it is missing other factors --> You grab the interest from the community and make them invested into the outcome.

Hence don't just add information about the players for the sake of it. The overall goal should be to inform the viewer how likely it is that player X wins and how it will be done.

If you make that type of content I am certain it would be shared and discussed a lot more around social medias. Obviously it wouldn't result in less negative feedback but opinionated content always has that.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9362 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-27 08:13:11
October 27 2017 08:08 GMT
#130
As an example of a content creator who has mastered the "claim + argumentation" type of content is Thorin. Below is an example of a video that received a ton of feedback and made a ton of people discuss a "not that interesting on paper" LOL quarter finale:



Unfortunately the video demonstrated Thorin didn't understand the current meta of the game and had other nonsensical arguments, however it is definitely possible to do similar type of content using more reasonable statements and argumentation.

The claim doesn't neccasarily have to be bold. Just present what you consider to be the most likely outcome and use qualitative and quantitative arguments in the proces.

As a nother type of more reasonable discussion is the below discussion of who should be the top 20 players at LOL worlds. Obviously the type of format is different from what you would do as a writer, however I included the video because they start up with the claims that PlayerY is a the xxth best player and then they explain their reasoning.

Nothing about narratives nor which types of items the players will build and jungle-patterns for the sake of jungle-patterns. Those things are only included if they have relevance for their ranking.

DieuCure
Profile Joined January 2017
France3713 Posts
October 27 2017 08:18 GMT
#131
Problem is : most of TL posters are good enough at the game, so we don't need someone to analyze what we can.

RTS aren't games with the hardest meta.
TL+ Member
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-27 08:28:51
October 27 2017 08:24 GMT
#132
Another problem is that, in this day and age, it's very rare to find players with specific playstyles because most already play a huge variety of strategies so they won't get found out and blind countered. When they do stand out (GuMiho, herO for example), I think we do talk about it. Especially for tournaments like BlizzCon, they then also often prepare specific things behind closed doors that we have no insight into.

That's probably easier in games like LoL, Dota or CSGO, where teams and players often very clearly have prefered hero-pools or sets of strategies (think TL's KotL pushes at TI7 for example).
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9362 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-27 08:30:49
October 27 2017 08:26 GMT
#133
On October 27 2017 17:18 DieuCure wrote:
Problem is : most of TL posters are good enough at the game, so we don't need someone to analyze what we can.

RTS aren't games with the hardest meta.


I mean Olli said he was master league protoss and in the Zest vs Ty preview I referenced we definitely saw focus on explaining builds.

However, I just think the approach is wrong. I think every writer before starting an article needs to be aware what they are trying to do with the article? Is it to make the viewers aware of the exact build orders? Or is it to make viewers aware of who he was 6 years ago?

Or as I want it: Who is going to win and how is the match going to play out?

And yes some writers do not have the skillset to write that type of content at the current time, but you have to start somewhere. You just need to watch alot of VODS and look at some hard numbers. E.g. why does player X have < 40% win/rate against terran?

What is he doing wrong? And then you watch his most recent 6-12 games and try to identify patterns. And based on that you can make a prediction on how he likely will perform going forward.

RTS aren't games with the hardest meta.


But games are still lost or won based on strategy and not just execution. And some players have a better/worse track-record than others in that regard. And as a viewer I would be interested in knowing exactly why that is because it means I can try to look out for that while watching his future games.

Maybe his future opponent has had a tendency of shutting down early game aggression and always getting into macro games?
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9362 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-27 09:35:07
October 27 2017 09:00 GMT
#134
Another problem is that, in this day and age, it's very rare to find players with specific playstyles because most already play a huge variety of strategies so they won't get found out and blind countered. When they do stand out (GuMiho, herO for example), I think we do talk about it. Especially for tournaments like BlizzCon, they then also often prepare specific things behind closed doors that we have no insight into.


I don't disagree, but some players are winning more than others? Why is that? Is it macro? Is it a better understanding of map movement? Is it multitasking? Is it timing execution?

And as mentioned previously, refer to actual games to support your point. Too many times people will make comments about players because that was the type of player he was 2 years ago while ignoring that they may have fixed their weakness's/strenghts.

Like, let's take Rogue for example. What exactly has he done/improved upon to now be considered the top zerg player? What mistakes did he make 13 months ago that he doesn't do anymore? According to the TL preview the explanation is just "he plays better in standard macro games" and he improved because he played a ton of ladder.

If it's true that there are only two types of players (A) those who are good at standard macro games and (B) those who aren't. Yes then it's impossible to hype up starcraft players and it is a shitty esport.

However, standard macro game needs to be split up into categories. Is it macro? Is it drop defense? is it the ability to take smart engagements?

And again make that in relation to where he was 13 months ago.

I also think others have pointed it out, but the overall structure of making isolated player analysis/descriptions in power rankings doesn't work. It needs to be more relative. Why is he a better player than Dark?

Think about this: A lot of your (intended) target group will be players who do no longer follow Starcraft actively but did maybe 1-3 years ago. They will know Dark as the best zerg player so what happened?

And you may worry about making the article too long, however in the article I just see a lot of sentences that doesn't help to tell me alot about Rogue's skill. Like this:



It is time to start looking towards the Korean ladder as a valuable indicator of skill. "Ladder doesn't matter" is foolish commentary. Nonsense. All the best Korean players have, for years, said in interviews that ladder is their primary tool for practice. They take it seriously. And as such, the examples of players reaching top spots on the Korean ladder and then carrying that skill over into tournaments is extremely long. Then-(P)Liquid'HerO reached the top of the Korean ladder before his breakout performances at Dreamhack, MLG and NASL. IM_(P)Seed's GSL championship was predated by a surge to #1 on ladder. (T)Maru's Starleague championship shortly after the beta of Heart of the Swarm was only shocking to those that had not followed his absurd ladder record at the time. (P)Zest's all-kill against SKT, his GSL championship following immediately after, as well as his domination of 2014 as a whole were all accompanied by him holding the top spot on the Korean ladder for almost the whole year. (T)TY and (P)Stats battled for the top spot early this year, when TY won WESG and IEM Katowice and Stats took home his GSL Championship. (T)INnoVation, in his stretch of dominance this year, was second only to Rogue on ladder. Rogue himself is only the latest in a long, long list of champions built on the Korean ladder.


Yes I get ladder matter, but it doesn't seem reasoanble to spend 12 sentences on it when it comes to Rogue. Especially since we know he is good based on his tournament results (right?) It's not like we are predicting his performance based on ladder rankings. That said, his ladder dominance is an interesting fact but I keep it to 3 sentences while restricting yourself to 2 examples.

The issue I have with the below sentence is that the viewers who did not watch alot of Starcraft in 2017 do not actually understand the timeline here? When exactly did Rogue get good (no idea when shanghai was) ? Refer less to individual tournaments and more to time periods.

And was IEM shanghai all he won? Was it 1 month ago? Did it have all of the best players?


At the start of the year, Rogue crashed out of the GSL in the first round and did not even qualify for SSL. There was talk of him playing more Overwatch than StarCraft II, and even retirement was murmured to be an option for him. When Rogue tore his path through the IEM Shanghai championship to win his first ever trophy, he appeared a fundamentally changed player.


Below I am using imaginary facts to explain how it could have been structured to inform the average viewer more easily:

"Rogue was bad for the few months, played OW yada yada.... However from June he improved his significantly and has since been arguably the most succesful player winning tournmant X and Y and most recently in August he won Z against all of the best players. He now comes into blizzcon as the succesful player with xx% win/rate in past 3 months? That contrasts to a win rate of zz% in the first 3 months of 2017"

That gives the viewer a better understanding of when he got good and by how much he improved. After that the article should be focussed on explaining which part of his gameplay he improved and why he is better than number #3-5 on the list.

Obviously that is a bit nit-picky, but I just found alot of the articles to not be very good at informing the casual viewer. And understanding the timeline of when someone was shit and when someone was good is extremely essential for the average viewer to be interested in your content. Again, I would refer to Thorin as someone who always is very good at briefly introducing relevant facts (performance over the year) and then basing his analysis of that.

Probably not what you wanted to hear since it's criticism and I don't think the above sentence is a major reason why the article wasn't well-spread out. But I just think it's one of many examples of why I don't think the articles were well structured, both when it comes to what they should contain (and not contain) and also what the intention of the articles should be.

EDIT:

Reading through the article I notice the following sentence:
His rather weak 2600 WCS points are boosted massively by two tournament victories towards the end of the year—IEM Shanghai and GSL Super Tournament. Had Rogue not won both of them, he would not be here.


So yes too some extent the viewer could understand that he only recently got good, still the overall structure of the article is lackluster. Keep everything related to his results in the same (early) part of the article. Further, I personally take an issue with this type of introduction:


Banelings waddle up the natural ramp, looking for any potential connection. It makes little difference at this point, the game is Rogue's. A massive army of hydralisks and queens forces its way up, shooting down all interceptors before they can do any harm. herO realizes his defeat and concedes. Rogue has qualified for the WCS Global Finals. On match point, with his back against the wall, against one of the most dangerous players in StarCraft II, Rogue has done what seemed impossible only a few weeks ago. When all odds were stacked against him, Rogue pulled through.


I understand its a writing technique, and while it can work in some instances. E.g. in soccer where someone might dribble 2 guys and then shoot from 30 meters to win the champions league finale (great introduction).

I don't think it works here. As someone who skim-reads a lot, this makes it quite difficult to understand where - in the article - I am going to get the substance, and I would expect alot of the clicks you get from casuals are skim-readers. (I would be interested in hearing from others if I am alone here).

Instead, the best way you capture my interest (and this assumes I represent a larger part of the target group): You start the article with explaining his performances over time chronically (using 6-10 sentences). This makes sure all of the readers have the required background knowledge to understand the analysis afterwards.

Finale note: If you are going to go off-tangent (like discussing ladder results and their meaning) for more than 5 sentences, you should put that in a seperate part of the article with a distinght header. This way people who are interested in it can read that while those who just want to learn about Rogue can move on to the other part.
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-27 09:15:26
October 27 2017 09:11 GMT
#135
On October 27 2017 16:55 Hider wrote:
Just to expand a bit further on this comment by me:

Show nested quote +
And don't just mention facts about the players for the sake of it. Only mention facts/the types of openings if you can contextualize it to how it impacts the match outcome.


I will refer to the very indepth preview written here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/508358-code-s-finals-preview-ty-vs-zest-s1-2016

You go very detailed on builds, but it's not apparent why the average esports viewer should care.

Instead I would build the article up differently, like this: (just made up the arguments)

"Zest will get at least 1-2 "free wins" against Ty from the early game! The reason is that he uses builds Z and X And ty normally reacts to it w/ build Y which which losses 50 % of the time due to ZXY."

With that type of writing you immediately grab the viewers attention because you make a bold claim. And then you use strategic analysis to support it. Discussion can then be centered around whether your argumentation is legit or what it is missing other factors --> You grab the interest from the community and make them invested into the outcome.

Hence don't just add information about the players for the sake of it. The overall goal should be to inform the viewer how likely it is that player X wins and how it will be done.

If you make that type of content I am certain it would be shared and discussed a lot more around social medias. Obviously it wouldn't result in less negative feedback but opinionated content always has that.

This is excellent. I wanted to avoid commenting on the article in detail as I have already expressed my general satisfaction with it, but let me ride on this wave since you started it already.

I understand the writing for TL is not necessarily the height of one's journalistic career, and I applaud all writers here since it is evident that they all do it with heart and passion. What it also evident is the writers lack range to provide anything mind-opening beyond the usual in-jokes and things we already know about as fans of the sport. I say this matter-of-factly and not to undermine the writers. I mean, you do not expect a larva to morph into an ultralisk prior to hive tech. It takes experience , command of the subject, and receptiveness to criticism to be able to improve. Like I said, I enjoy the articles on TL based on whether they are fun to read and on the goals they set for themselves. And in most cases, especially this series of articles for Blizzcon, I think they are good. I didn't even notice until someone earlier on the previous page pointed out some quotes from the article that it felt like reading a high school gazette with all the bizarre phrasing and diction.

Anyway, I agree with your analysis-approach to writing. And if TL did that more often, I think not only will it elevate the quality of discussion among everyone here, it might also strengthen TL as a prime source of in-depth SC2 content.
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12761 Posts
October 27 2017 09:19 GMT
#136
The ladder thing seems like a double standard to me, when ByuN was destroying both ladder and aligulac before winning GSL + blizzcon, people didn't acknowledge it because they didn't like his playstyle.

When it is Rogue it's even used as an argument by TL writers, weird.

And yeah, since this is a PR an explanation on why Rogue is a better zerg than Dark atm would be interesting, same for INno vs TY, or why TY>Gumiho in spite of Gumiho GSL win.

The content of the articles are nice to read but it doesn't bring anything new to those who follow sc2 regularly indeed.
WriterMaru
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
October 27 2017 09:37 GMT
#137
On October 27 2017 18:19 Poopi wrote:
The ladder thing seems like a double standard to me, when ByuN was destroying both ladder and aligulac before winning GSL + blizzcon, people didn't acknowledge it because they didn't like his playstyle.

When it is Rogue it's even used as an argument by TL writers, weird.

And yeah, since this is a PR an explanation on why Rogue is a better zerg than Dark atm would be interesting, same for INno vs TY, or why TY>Gumiho in spite of Gumiho GSL win.

The content of the articles are nice to read but it doesn't bring anything new to those who follow sc2 regularly indeed.

And as Hider observes, not even useful to new fans. But for me, they work ok enough as a source of entertainment, validation of my own appreciation of the game, and maybe even hype for upcoming events. Other people have different standardds though.
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9362 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-27 09:45:42
October 27 2017 09:44 GMT
#138
What it also evident is the writers lack range to provide anything mind-opening beyond the usual in-jokes and things we already know about as fans of the sport.


Maybe, but they are definitely investing so much time into Starcraft so they could - if they used their ressources differently - actually make that type of content.

E.g. I was reading the blog from mintzheyer (spelling?) and how he was making recaps of every game and how much time it took + how he hated it... And I just don't understand... why?

Instead if less ressources were spent on those types of tasks and instead more on "I want to make the best prediction on who the best Z player is or who the best European player is. I will watch a ton of vods and make a ton of notes, look at data from aligulac etc." --> Then make a list that goes pretty indepth.

Not only would that probably be more fun/rewarding for the content creator, it would probably be content that would be worth sharing (assuming it was high-quality). And if it is too time-consuming to analyze 10 players then limit your self to the 4 best.

I think that's the type of content that makes the scene more likely to feel "alive" whereas recaps... I don't know, I am sure they help a bit but it doesn't feel like it adds anything meaningful.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12761 Posts
October 27 2017 09:45 GMT
#139
Yeah, but if for example the articles called out on Rogue for being better than Dark, maybe interviewers could ask Dark about it or stuff like that, so we would be talking about the PR on stream again?
WriterMaru
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9362 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-27 10:24:56
October 27 2017 09:49 GMT
#140
On October 27 2017 18:45 Poopi wrote:
Yeah, but if for example the articles called out on Rogue for being better than Dark, maybe interviewers could ask Dark about it or stuff like that, so we would be talking about the PR on stream again?


Yes and I want people to sit their and argue about how Dark was better that won tournament but just was unlucky cus of cheese and good opponent but since he beat Rogue 2 months ago in an online match he is actually better. Like there are cons and pro's of every player, and I want the Power Rankings to take initative to discuss and weight some of these factors.

And based on that "introduction" from the PR, people can argue on how they don't think online results should matter or how in that series it wasn't actually cheese but yadayada.

Random thoughts from me below

As someone who follows (or has followed) multiple esports I always wonder what the impact of content-creators in the early stages of a games life is on the future type of content we see.

In early Starcraft we saw Starcraft content that wasn't revovled around game or player analysis but more about humour and jokes (SOTG example, most people rarely watched the games that were played, mostly in Korea ofc).

(Artosis Meta show was actually pretty fucking good though it came at a time where Starcraft was already declining in popularity).

If you contrast that to Summoning Insight in LOL which is a type of content that just blew my mind when I initally "transfered" from Starcraft to LOL. It had hosts who watched all (or most) of the games and then discussed it, some times with pro player guests who had extra insight. They developed theories on how good the teams actually were or who the good players were.

Obviously LOL is a fundamentally different game (meta changes + teamgame) so the content will be a lot different per nature, but I come to hate how so much content is so balance-foccused in Sc2 and everytime we see "predictions" on talk show it was just "that guy is better so he wins". The casual viewer do not really care about balance discussions (only active players do), but they care about player analysis and who will win and how.

I wonder if someone like Montecristo (host of summoning insight) if he had been an expert in Sc2 as well and hosted talkshows in 2011, how that would have impacted future content. In LOL it's my impression that the community wants to read about content that helps them to determine who is actually good or bad in a match. And I believe that's partly a result of the impact Summoning Insight had because I don't really see that as much in other esports.

Sc2 is honestly the worst esport when it comes to discussion/player analysis: People don't like criticism over players because "you are worse than them so you aren't allowed to talk (received comments like that multiple times everytime I attempted to do analysis)."

However, I think that is the type of content we actually need to see if we want engagement from the community.
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
October 27 2017 10:01 GMT
#141
On October 27 2017 18:49 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2017 18:45 Poopi wrote:
Yeah, but if for example the articles called out on Rogue for being better than Dark, maybe interviewers could ask Dark about it or stuff like that, so we would be talking about the PR on stream again?


Yes and I want people to sit their and argue about how Dark was better that won tournament but just was unlucky cus of cheese and good opponent but since he beat Rogue 2 months ago in an online match he is actually better. Like there are cons and pro's of every player, and I want the Power Rankings to take initative to discuss and weight some of these factors.

And based on that "introduction" from the PR, people can argue on how they don't think online results should matter or how in that series it wasn't actually cheese but yadayada.

As someone who follows (or has followed) multiple esports I always wonder what the impact of content-creators in the early stages of a games life is on the future type of content we see.

And the thing is that we in early Starcraft saw Starcraft content that wasn't revovled around game or player analysis but more about humour and jokes (SOTG example, most people rarely watched the games that were played, mostly in Korea ofc).

(Artosis Meta show was actually pretty fucking good though it came at a time where Starcraft was already declining in popularity).

If you contrast that to Summoning Insight in LOL which is a type of content that just blew my mind when I initally "transfered" from Starcraft to LOL. It had hosts who watched all (or most) of the games and then discussed it, some times with pro player guests who had extra insight. They developed theories on how good the teams actually were or who the good players were.

Obviously there are reasons for why the LOL esport scene is different from the Sc2 scene, but I come to hate how so much content is so balance-foccused in Sc2 and everytime we see "predictions" on talk show it was just "that guy is better so he wins".

But I wonder if someone like Montecristo (host of summoning insight) if he had been an expert in Sc2 as well and hosted talkshows in 2011, how that would have impacted future content. In LOL it's my impression that the community wants to read about content that helps them to determine who is actually good or bad in a match.

Whereas in Sc2 people don't like criticism over players because "you are worse than them so you aren't allowed to talk (received comments like that multiple times everytime I attempted to do analysis)."



I agree with your post, and with your signature. You may even add "in 2013 and 2017" :D
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-27 10:52:44
October 27 2017 10:04 GMT
#142
On October 27 2017 18:44 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
What it also evident is the writers lack range to provide anything mind-opening beyond the usual in-jokes and things we already know about as fans of the sport.


Maybe, but they are definitely investing so much time into Starcraft so they could - if they used their ressources differently - actually make that type of content.

E.g. I was reading the blog from mintzheyer (spelling?) and how he was making recaps of every game and how much time it took + how he hated it... And I just don't understand... why?

Instead if less ressources were spent on those types of tasks and instead more on "I want to make the best prediction on who the best Z player is or who the best European player is. I will watch a ton of vods and make a ton of notes, look at data from aligulac etc." --> Then make a list that goes pretty indepth.

Not only would that probably be more fun/rewarding for the content creator, it would probably be content that would be worth sharing (assuming it was high-quality). And if it is too time-consuming to analyze 10 players then limit your self to the 4 best.

I think that's the type of content that makes the scene more likely to feel "alive" whereas recaps... I don't know, I am sure they help a bit but it doesn't feel like it adds anything meaningful.

You and I are practically on the same boat, I think I'm just more appreciative of the range of quality perhaps.

But I agree with writers whining about the time and effort it took to write. Honestly, it's not a magnum opus that people will congratulate you about in ages to come. Far from it. We appreciate the effort though, that should be emphasized. So do your job or don't, no need for drama.
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28453 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-27 10:35:54
October 27 2017 10:28 GMT
#143
On October 26 2017 08:33 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Poll: Right now, before Blizzcon, is INnoVation GOAT already?

No (59)
 
54%

Yes (51)
 
46%

110 total votes

Your vote: Right now, before Blizzcon, is INnoVation GOAT already?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No



Poll: If INnoVation wins Blizzcon, does he become undisputed GOAT?

Yes (76)
 
68%

No (36)
 
32%

112 total votes

Your vote: If INnoVation wins Blizzcon, does he become undisputed GOAT?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No


omg, are those 2 people ok!?

Edit: It's spreading!
I Protoss winner, could it be?
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9362 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-27 10:50:33
October 27 2017 10:38 GMT
#144
But I agree with writers whining about the time and effort it took to write. Honestly, it's not a magnum opus that people will congratulate you about in ages to come. Far from it. We appreciate the effort though, that should be emphasized. So do your job or don't, no need for drama.


I can still relate to the idea about you putting in a lot of work and not feeling recognized for it at all - perhaps even criticized. It's horrible. Hence that's why I always try to praise people who I see put in good work + valuable content that informs people.

However, the latter is just missing from the TL writing, and it seems that they are stuck in this mindset where they are doing everyone this massive service by writing stuff that not many people care about. Obviously it isn't true that even narrative-based articles or recaps doesn't help the scene at all, but it is probably true that they could never do it again and 95% of the community would be unaffected. And the remaining 5% would probably still be able to sleep at night.

And it is apparent that the TL writing staff with Ollie simply lacks self-reflection. Is what we are doing the correct way? Why don't we take a look at other esports to see how they hype up big events or matces? Is there something we can learn from that?

When I made the comment earlier about TL's writers wanting to be writers rather than analysts I especially thought of this article by Mizenhayer: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/527848-ty-second-sunrise-rank-7-road-to-blizzcon

In my opinion this is the biggest fluff-article I have ever (skim) read. While I mentiond the Rogue article before that article at least tried to inform the viewers about his recent performance w/ a bit about his playstyle as well.

I am not sure what the target group for the TY article is? Is it people who have never followed Starcraft and thus cannot relate to any type of analysis? Is it people who used to watch Starcraft but not anymore? Is it the hardcore fans?

I am not sure either target group really enjoys that type of article. For those who are new to Starcraft you should probably not use any more than 5-6 sentences to convince them why they should watch Ty play this weekend.

And when you post (or is responsible for as editor) these types of articles can you then really complain about how they aren't being spread around? Because what is there to discuss? Articles that are being spread are those with strong and well-defined opinions and ideally also with solid argumention behind them. Fluff has neither.

So while I fucking hate myself for criticizing hard-working volunteers, the truth is also that just because you put in hard work as a writer, that doesn't imply that your content is particularly valueable.
Shuffleblade
Profile Joined February 2012
Sweden1903 Posts
October 27 2017 11:51 GMT
#145
This was a really great article, loved it!
Maru, Bomber, TY, Dear, Classic, DeParture and Rogue!
Terran Danger Zone
Profile Joined October 2017
1 Post
October 27 2017 15:30 GMT
#146
Great article! Keep up the great content man
ryuhayabusa69xtc
Profile Joined August 2017
6 Posts
October 27 2017 20:37 GMT
#147
On October 26 2017 06:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Come on INno, time to turn to legend.


tbf, he's already a legend. just not GOAT yet, at least not indisputably.
ryuhayabusa69xtc
Profile Joined August 2017
6 Posts
October 27 2017 20:46 GMT
#148
On October 27 2017 14:11 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2017 11:04 Twinkle Toes wrote:
On topic, are people still seriously considering Life as a goat candidate? He had a meteoric HOTS run yeah, but thats it. MVP and INno especially have done better far longer.


Not true. Life had a frightening peak near the end of WoL too. He was a royal roader for a reason:

His Stats

GSL, Blizzard Cup (the most rigorous iteration of it too), Iron Squid, and MLG Fall all were won by him between q3 2012 and the q1 2013.


screw that scumbag life. his record isn't worth a discussion and should all be vacated.
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
October 27 2017 21:24 GMT
#149
On October 28 2017 05:46 ryuhayabusa69xtc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2017 14:11 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On October 27 2017 11:04 Twinkle Toes wrote:
On topic, are people still seriously considering Life as a goat candidate? He had a meteoric HOTS run yeah, but thats it. MVP and INno especially have done better far longer.


Not true. Life had a frightening peak near the end of WoL too. He was a royal roader for a reason:

His Stats

GSL, Blizzard Cup (the most rigorous iteration of it too), Iron Squid, and MLG Fall all were won by him between q3 2012 and the q1 2013.


screw that scumbag life. his record isn't worth a discussion and should all be vacated.


Scumbag or not, his record is just as worthy of discussing as saviOr's was (and remains). You can discuss past performances without excusing anything.
AdministratorBreak the chains
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
October 28 2017 07:37 GMT
#150
On October 28 2017 06:24 Zealously wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2017 05:46 ryuhayabusa69xtc wrote:
On October 27 2017 14:11 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On October 27 2017 11:04 Twinkle Toes wrote:
On topic, are people still seriously considering Life as a goat candidate? He had a meteoric HOTS run yeah, but thats it. MVP and INno especially have done better far longer.


Not true. Life had a frightening peak near the end of WoL too. He was a royal roader for a reason:

His Stats

GSL, Blizzard Cup (the most rigorous iteration of it too), Iron Squid, and MLG Fall all were won by him between q3 2012 and the q1 2013.


screw that scumbag life. his record isn't worth a discussion and should all be vacated.


Scumbag or not, his record is just as worthy of discussing as saviOr's was (and remains). You can discuss past performances without excusing anything.



Yeah man, wtf with this tendancy of dismissing a player results because of mistakes (or crime, don't care about how you want to call them), it was still one of the most gifted players that touched this game... In french History many tends to dismiss Napoleon III because he was an Emperor, and the IIIrd Republic which followed him insisted upon that, and upon his military defeat against Bismark. But the man modernised the country, really fast and it allowed France to enter the XXth century (meanwhile the IIIrd republic hold the grudge against Germany... until 1914)..
But still the point is, that Life may have commit huge mistakes, he still was that skilled player.
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
DSh1
Profile Joined April 2017
292 Posts
October 28 2017 07:55 GMT
#151
On October 27 2017 18:19 Poopi wrote:
The ladder thing seems like a double standard to me, when ByuN was destroying both ladder and aligulac before winning GSL + blizzcon, people didn't acknowledge it because they didn't like his playstyle.

When it is Rogue it's even used as an argument by TL writers, weird.

And yeah, since this is a PR an explanation on why Rogue is a better zerg than Dark atm would be interesting, same for INno vs TY, or why TY>Gumiho in spite of Gumiho GSL win.

The content of the articles are nice to read but it doesn't bring anything new to those who follow sc2 regularly indeed.


Not true. When Byun rocked ladder everyone with a little bit of brain knew he was good. It was just not made official because old arguments are slow to die off. Most people are afraid to be controversial and to admit that ladder matters now whereas in the past it didn't as much. (Caution: Hindsight Bias)

Even solar was rated highly based on his ladder rank at the start of LotV. Guess what? He won the first tournament.

The thing you have to understand is that not only the peak ladder rank matters, but like how long or how the rank was achieved. E.g. Byun in his prime never lost a game on ladder. Or Rogue is in top 10 with multiple accounts for an extended period.

It's not a causality, but a correlation. Achieving rank 1 doesn't make you better at SC2. But if you are good, you will reach a higher rank automatically. And that's good enough to take ladder rank as an indicator. This is especially true for SC2 since you train so many automated responses/mechanics, that your "passive skill" is important (I would guess > 90% of your skill, the remaining 10 % would be: ability to withstand mental pressure, adaptility to situations, etc.).

Of course being rank one doesn't mean tournament wins, but neither does being the best player in the world right now guarantee a tournament win. There's always luck (statistical variance).


As a side note: I really agree with many of the comments here. I really do appreciate the articles. Another flavor of writing/writing style would make it even more interesting for me. (Just an opinion).
washikie
Profile Joined February 2011
United States752 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-28 16:56:24
October 28 2017 16:43 GMT
#152
After all the negative feedback in this thread I just want to say that I'm glad olli writes so many articles for the community. We don't have a huge amount of content creators in this community the fact that he is willing to put in the time and effort to make these articles deserves respect. I love reading articles on tl. Thank you for making them Olli.
"when life gives Hero lemons he makes carriers" -Artosis
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
October 30 2017 10:04 GMT
#153
The Road to blizzcon is stacked af in his bracket
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
October 30 2017 12:57 GMT
#154
On October 30 2017 19:04 Mun_Su wrote:
The Road to blizzcon is stacked af in his bracket

I think an appropriate test for him on the road to GOAT
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
October 30 2017 14:48 GMT
#155
On October 30 2017 21:57 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2017 19:04 Mun_Su wrote:
The Road to blizzcon is stacked af in his bracket

I think an appropriate test for him on the road to GOAT



I think he had the best year ever... near 80% winrate i n offline match since last december...
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
DieuCure
Profile Joined January 2017
France3713 Posts
October 30 2017 16:10 GMT
#156
INno should cheer for soO and Rogue, so he is the GOAT then
TL+ Member
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
October 30 2017 21:47 GMT
#157
On October 31 2017 01:10 DieuCure wrote:
INno should cheer for soO and Rogue, so he is the GOAT then

In his best days, Rogue could beat INno in a series
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9362 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-31 12:21:28
October 31 2017 11:50 GMT
#158
A bit OT, but with regards to Sc2 journalism and narratives that has been repeated one time too many, a story that hasn't really been told before is why MMA vs DRG game 5 of the GSTL finals in 2011 is the greatest games in the history of Starcraft!

I consider writing a lenghty article about it, but to make it relatively brief; it featured two players who had innovated the TvZ/ZvT matchups over the previous months and were (arguably) considered the second best player for their race at the time the game took place - MVP and Nestea were #1.

Their innovations to the meta were not just a short-term gimmick; It continued to impact how the matchups would be played over the next year!

And in this game you get the two playstyles clahing up against each other in the deciding game in the GSTL finals. What more could you wish for? A great game? Yes and you definitely got that. Given its time-period it was rare to find any games that had so much back-and-forth action while showing high level of mechanical skills.

I think there is room to tell this story more indepth and you could write about how the whole meta in TvZ changed from to 2010 to 2012 in relation to the playstyles of MMA and DRG.

For those who are interested in the history of Starcraft 2, this is the best story that has never been told.
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
October 31 2017 12:00 GMT
#159
I think you should be posting this in another thread, not the place for it here.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9362 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-31 12:12:01
October 31 2017 12:08 GMT
#160
On October 31 2017 21:00 BigFan wrote:
I think you should be posting this in another thread, not the place for it here.


There isn't any thread where this post wold make sense and I don't want to start a new thread. It's just something that has been on my mind for a lot of years: how amazing his story is and why - if any - narrative deserves to be repeated, this is one.

And the context here is Sc2 journalism/writing in general hence why it seemed the most appropriate (out of no good alternatives). Because compared to all of the narratives that has been told over and over, you could write so much interesting stuff about the development of the TvZ meta to 2010 and 2012 while referincing this game.
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-31 12:15:46
October 31 2017 12:15 GMT
#161
On October 31 2017 21:08 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2017 21:00 BigFan wrote:
I think you should be posting this in another thread, not the place for it here.


There isn't any thread where this post wold make sense and I don't want to start a new thread. It's just something that has been on my mind for a lot of years: how amazing his story is and why - if any - narrative deserves to be repeated, this is one.

And the context here is Sc2 journalism/writing in general hence why it seemed the most appropriate (out of no good alternatives). Because compared to all of the narratives that has been told over and over, you could write so much interesting stuff about the development of the TvZ meta to 2010 and 2012 while referincing this game.

you miss my point. This thread is about Innovation, not MMA or DRG or whoever lol. Make a thread in SCII general and see if there's interest. Alternatively, just write it if you want and don't bother asking if anyone's interested. Folks will read and comment if its good.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9362 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-31 13:00:01
October 31 2017 12:40 GMT
#162
On October 31 2017 21:15 BigFan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2017 21:08 Hider wrote:
On October 31 2017 21:00 BigFan wrote:
I think you should be posting this in another thread, not the place for it here.


There isn't any thread where this post wold make sense and I don't want to start a new thread. It's just something that has been on my mind for a lot of years: how amazing his story is and why - if any - narrative deserves to be repeated, this is one.

And the context here is Sc2 journalism/writing in general hence why it seemed the most appropriate (out of no good alternatives). Because compared to all of the narratives that has been told over and over, you could write so much interesting stuff about the development of the TvZ meta to 2010 and 2012 while referincing this game.

you miss my point. This thread is about Innovation, not MMA or DRG or whoever lol. Make a thread in SCII general and see if there's interest. Alternatively, just write it if you want and don't bother asking if anyone's interested. Folks will read and comment if its good.


I think you are misunderstanding my intentions here. This is not me making this about MMA vs DRG or greatest games ever. This is me talking about content that could be written, and I was interested to see if other long-time Sc2 followers had similar types of stories that they felt were ignored.

If a thread has potential to talk about Sc2 journalism in general, then let's see if it can move in that direction because there are a million other threads to talk about WCS + this thread barely had anyone talking about innovation in any remotely interesting anyway.

Like look at some of the comments talking about Life:

Scumbag or not, his record is just as worthy of discussing as saviOr's was (and remains). You can discuss past performances without excusing anything.


What does that have to do w/ Innovation?

You should consider stopping to attempting to moderate for the sake of moderating and instead think about whether comments could lead to interesting discussions.

And talking to you seems to lead nowhere interesting, thus this will be my last response to you.
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
October 31 2017 13:02 GMT
#163
Well, that escalated quickly.

INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
October 31 2017 15:06 GMT
#164
On October 31 2017 21:40 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2017 21:15 BigFan wrote:
On October 31 2017 21:08 Hider wrote:
On October 31 2017 21:00 BigFan wrote:
I think you should be posting this in another thread, not the place for it here.


There isn't any thread where this post wold make sense and I don't want to start a new thread. It's just something that has been on my mind for a lot of years: how amazing his story is and why - if any - narrative deserves to be repeated, this is one.

And the context here is Sc2 journalism/writing in general hence why it seemed the most appropriate (out of no good alternatives). Because compared to all of the narratives that has been told over and over, you could write so much interesting stuff about the development of the TvZ meta to 2010 and 2012 while referincing this game.

you miss my point. This thread is about Innovation, not MMA or DRG or whoever lol. Make a thread in SCII general and see if there's interest. Alternatively, just write it if you want and don't bother asking if anyone's interested. Folks will read and comment if its good.


I think you are misunderstanding my intentions here. This is not me making this about MMA vs DRG or greatest games ever. This is me talking about content that could be written, and I was interested to see if other long-time Sc2 followers had similar types of stories that they felt were ignored.

If a thread has potential to talk about Sc2 journalism in general, then let's see if it can move in that direction because there are a million other threads to talk about WCS + this thread barely had anyone talking about innovation in any remotely interesting anyway.

Like look at some of the comments talking about Life:

Show nested quote +
Scumbag or not, his record is just as worthy of discussing as saviOr's was (and remains). You can discuss past performances without excusing anything.


What does that have to do w/ Innovation?

You should consider stopping to attempting to moderate for the sake of moderating and instead think about whether comments could lead to interesting discussions.

And talking to you seems to lead nowhere interesting, thus this will be my last response to you.

yes, that sounds nice but this is NOT the thread to receive the feedback you want. This is for talks about Innovation, this article and blizzcon but obviously, you might get a comment here and there that don't directly deal with this subject. As I said, make another thread with your previous post as the OP in SCII general and see if any of the readers are interested in what you want to write. Does this make sense?
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-31 15:45:04
October 31 2017 15:42 GMT
#165
On October 31 2017 20:50 Hider wrote:
A bit OT, but with regards to Sc2 journalism and narratives that has been repeated one time too many, a story that hasn't really been told before is why MMA vs DRG game 5 of the GSTL finals in 2011 is the greatest games in the history of Starcraft!

I consider writing a lenghty article about it, but to make it relatively brief; it featured two players who had innovated the TvZ/ZvT matchups over the previous months and were (arguably) considered the second best player for their race at the time the game took place - MVP and Nestea were #1.

Their innovations to the meta were not just a short-term gimmick; It continued to impact how the matchups would be played over the next year!

And in this game you get the two playstyles clahing up against each other in the deciding game in the GSTL finals. What more could you wish for? A great game? Yes and you definitely got that. Given its time-period it was rare to find any games that had so much back-and-forth action while showing high level of mechanical skills.

I think there is room to tell this story more indepth and you could write about how the whole meta in TvZ changed from to 2010 to 2012 in relation to the playstyles of MMA and DRG.

For those who are interested in the history of Starcraft 2, this is the best story that has never been told.

GO for it man. With all this okish articles here, something in-depth would be truly welcome.

Can I give you a deadline of Nov. 3, 8pm KST?
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
DSh1
Profile Joined April 2017
292 Posts
October 31 2017 16:15 GMT
#166
On October 31 2017 21:15 BigFan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2017 21:08 Hider wrote:
On October 31 2017 21:00 BigFan wrote:
I think you should be posting this in another thread, not the place for it here.


There isn't any thread where this post wold make sense and I don't want to start a new thread. It's just something that has been on my mind for a lot of years: how amazing his story is and why - if any - narrative deserves to be repeated, this is one.

And the context here is Sc2 journalism/writing in general hence why it seemed the most appropriate (out of no good alternatives). Because compared to all of the narratives that has been told over and over, you could write so much interesting stuff about the development of the TvZ meta to 2010 and 2012 while referincing this game.

you miss my point. This thread is about Innovation, not MMA or DRG or whoever lol. Make a thread in SCII general and see if there's interest. Alternatively, just write it if you want and don't bother asking if anyone's interested. Folks will read and comment if its good.


Anything other SC2 players do is somewhat related to Innovation. Just saying...

E.g. I read from this guy that he thinks MMA vs DRG might be better COMPARED to innovation. A message is not only telling what is explicitly written there.

Or what does MVP or Life have to do with innovation? Why are they mentioned in the original article ... .
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-31 17:02:42
October 31 2017 17:01 GMT
#167
On November 01 2017 01:15 DSh1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2017 21:15 BigFan wrote:
On October 31 2017 21:08 Hider wrote:
On October 31 2017 21:00 BigFan wrote:
I think you should be posting this in another thread, not the place for it here.


There isn't any thread where this post wold make sense and I don't want to start a new thread. It's just something that has been on my mind for a lot of years: how amazing his story is and why - if any - narrative deserves to be repeated, this is one.

And the context here is Sc2 journalism/writing in general hence why it seemed the most appropriate (out of no good alternatives). Because compared to all of the narratives that has been told over and over, you could write so much interesting stuff about the development of the TvZ meta to 2010 and 2012 while referincing this game.

you miss my point. This thread is about Innovation, not MMA or DRG or whoever lol. Make a thread in SCII general and see if there's interest. Alternatively, just write it if you want and don't bother asking if anyone's interested. Folks will read and comment if its good.


Anything other SC2 players do is somewhat related to Innovation. Just saying...

E.g. I read from this guy that he thinks MMA vs DRG might be better COMPARED to innovation. A message is not only telling what is explicitly written there.

Or what does MVP or Life have to do with innovation? Why are they mentioned in the original article ... .

You are still missing the point, much like he is lol. He will get a much much better response if he makes a new thread rather than posting here, that was the main point. This thread is for something totally different and unrelated. Other point was that if this is something that he really wants to do, skip asking and just do it already...
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9362 Posts
October 31 2017 17:13 GMT
#168
On November 01 2017 02:01 BigFan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 01 2017 01:15 DSh1 wrote:
On October 31 2017 21:15 BigFan wrote:
On October 31 2017 21:08 Hider wrote:
On October 31 2017 21:00 BigFan wrote:
I think you should be posting this in another thread, not the place for it here.


There isn't any thread where this post wold make sense and I don't want to start a new thread. It's just something that has been on my mind for a lot of years: how amazing his story is and why - if any - narrative deserves to be repeated, this is one.

And the context here is Sc2 journalism/writing in general hence why it seemed the most appropriate (out of no good alternatives). Because compared to all of the narratives that has been told over and over, you could write so much interesting stuff about the development of the TvZ meta to 2010 and 2012 while referincing this game.

you miss my point. This thread is about Innovation, not MMA or DRG or whoever lol. Make a thread in SCII general and see if there's interest. Alternatively, just write it if you want and don't bother asking if anyone's interested. Folks will read and comment if its good.


Anything other SC2 players do is somewhat related to Innovation. Just saying...

E.g. I read from this guy that he thinks MMA vs DRG might be better COMPARED to innovation. A message is not only telling what is explicitly written there.

Or what does MVP or Life have to do with innovation? Why are they mentioned in the original article ... .

You are still missing the point, much like he is lol. He will get a much much better response if he makes a new thread rather than posting here, that was the main point. This thread is for something totally different and unrelated. Other point was that if this is something that he really wants to do, skip asking and just do it already...


So I should make a new thread just to tease an article I might write?

That sounds absolutely ridiculous and you don't just make an article of that caliber since I would need to dig out old vods (which I am not sure I actually can) in order to get the best context. There are also other types of facts I would like to get correct that I would need to recheck.
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-31 18:00:51
October 31 2017 17:58 GMT
#169
On November 01 2017 02:13 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 01 2017 02:01 BigFan wrote:
On November 01 2017 01:15 DSh1 wrote:
On October 31 2017 21:15 BigFan wrote:
On October 31 2017 21:08 Hider wrote:
On October 31 2017 21:00 BigFan wrote:
I think you should be posting this in another thread, not the place for it here.


There isn't any thread where this post wold make sense and I don't want to start a new thread. It's just something that has been on my mind for a lot of years: how amazing his story is and why - if any - narrative deserves to be repeated, this is one.

And the context here is Sc2 journalism/writing in general hence why it seemed the most appropriate (out of no good alternatives). Because compared to all of the narratives that has been told over and over, you could write so much interesting stuff about the development of the TvZ meta to 2010 and 2012 while referincing this game.

you miss my point. This thread is about Innovation, not MMA or DRG or whoever lol. Make a thread in SCII general and see if there's interest. Alternatively, just write it if you want and don't bother asking if anyone's interested. Folks will read and comment if its good.


Anything other SC2 players do is somewhat related to Innovation. Just saying...

E.g. I read from this guy that he thinks MMA vs DRG might be better COMPARED to innovation. A message is not only telling what is explicitly written there.

Or what does MVP or Life have to do with innovation? Why are they mentioned in the original article ... .

You are still missing the point, much like he is lol. He will get a much much better response if he makes a new thread rather than posting here, that was the main point. This thread is for something totally different and unrelated. Other point was that if this is something that he really wants to do, skip asking and just do it already...


So I should make a new thread just to tease an article I might write?

That sounds absolutely ridiculous and you don't just make an article of that caliber since I would need to dig out old vods (which I am not sure I actually can) in order to get the best context. There are also other types of facts I would like to get correct that I would need to recheck.

So, it's ridiculous to try and give your idea a lot more exposure so that you can decide if it's worth writing yet you somehow believe that posting about it in a thread that's barely moving atm is going to do it more good? At this point, it feels like you're trying to dodge writing this lol.

Build it and they will come -> write it and they will read. Anyone who's passionate enough about anything will begin writing even before asking for feedback, especially if the story is that damn good. I started writing this article and didn't even bother asking for feedback on whether it was worth it due to the hours involved because to me, it was special, important and I was that passionate about SSL. So, tell me, are you really that passionate MMA vs DRG?

edit: my apologies to the OP for derailing, I'll leave this convo with this post. Cheers!
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
DSh1
Profile Joined April 2017
292 Posts
October 31 2017 18:28 GMT
#170
On November 01 2017 02:01 BigFan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 01 2017 01:15 DSh1 wrote:
On October 31 2017 21:15 BigFan wrote:
On October 31 2017 21:08 Hider wrote:
On October 31 2017 21:00 BigFan wrote:
I think you should be posting this in another thread, not the place for it here.


There isn't any thread where this post wold make sense and I don't want to start a new thread. It's just something that has been on my mind for a lot of years: how amazing his story is and why - if any - narrative deserves to be repeated, this is one.

And the context here is Sc2 journalism/writing in general hence why it seemed the most appropriate (out of no good alternatives). Because compared to all of the narratives that has been told over and over, you could write so much interesting stuff about the development of the TvZ meta to 2010 and 2012 while referincing this game.

you miss my point. This thread is about Innovation, not MMA or DRG or whoever lol. Make a thread in SCII general and see if there's interest. Alternatively, just write it if you want and don't bother asking if anyone's interested. Folks will read and comment if its good.


Anything other SC2 players do is somewhat related to Innovation. Just saying...

E.g. I read from this guy that he thinks MMA vs DRG might be better COMPARED to innovation. A message is not only telling what is explicitly written there.

Or what does MVP or Life have to do with innovation? Why are they mentioned in the original article ... .

You are still missing the point, much like he is lol. He will get a much much better response if he makes a new thread rather than posting here, that was the main point. This thread is for something totally different and unrelated. Other point was that if this is something that he really wants to do, skip asking and just do it already...


My point was I understand your point, but for me its not OT. And I find it interesting to read.

Also on another note: ridiculing others in your posts is not going to convince people. It's always the others that miss the point
Topin
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Peru10044 Posts
October 31 2017 22:26 GMT
#171
i didnt remember 2016 was that awful for inno... i guess it was because for me most of the time he was in the top so the declines in his play dont stand up that much... if that makes any sense. about blizzcon 2017 he is one of the favorites to win it all but i still think he doesnt look untouchable like he was some time in the past and more considering the level od the Zerg present.

nice read btw!
i would define my style between a mix of ByuN, Maru and MKP
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
November 01 2017 01:02 GMT
#172
On November 01 2017 02:58 BigFan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 01 2017 02:13 Hider wrote:
On November 01 2017 02:01 BigFan wrote:
On November 01 2017 01:15 DSh1 wrote:
On October 31 2017 21:15 BigFan wrote:
On October 31 2017 21:08 Hider wrote:
On October 31 2017 21:00 BigFan wrote:
I think you should be posting this in another thread, not the place for it here.


There isn't any thread where this post wold make sense and I don't want to start a new thread. It's just something that has been on my mind for a lot of years: how amazing his story is and why - if any - narrative deserves to be repeated, this is one.

And the context here is Sc2 journalism/writing in general hence why it seemed the most appropriate (out of no good alternatives). Because compared to all of the narratives that has been told over and over, you could write so much interesting stuff about the development of the TvZ meta to 2010 and 2012 while referincing this game.

you miss my point. This thread is about Innovation, not MMA or DRG or whoever lol. Make a thread in SCII general and see if there's interest. Alternatively, just write it if you want and don't bother asking if anyone's interested. Folks will read and comment if its good.


Anything other SC2 players do is somewhat related to Innovation. Just saying...

E.g. I read from this guy that he thinks MMA vs DRG might be better COMPARED to innovation. A message is not only telling what is explicitly written there.

Or what does MVP or Life have to do with innovation? Why are they mentioned in the original article ... .

You are still missing the point, much like he is lol. He will get a much much better response if he makes a new thread rather than posting here, that was the main point. This thread is for something totally different and unrelated. Other point was that if this is something that he really wants to do, skip asking and just do it already...


So I should make a new thread just to tease an article I might write?

That sounds absolutely ridiculous and you don't just make an article of that caliber since I would need to dig out old vods (which I am not sure I actually can) in order to get the best context. There are also other types of facts I would like to get correct that I would need to recheck.

So, it's ridiculous to try and give your idea a lot more exposure so that you can decide if it's worth writing yet you somehow believe that posting about it in a thread that's barely moving atm is going to do it more good? At this point, it feels like you're trying to dodge writing this lol.

Build it and they will come -> write it and they will read. Anyone who's passionate enough about anything will begin writing even before asking for feedback, especially if the story is that damn good. I started writing this article and didn't even bother asking for feedback on whether it was worth it due to the hours involved because to me, it was special, important and I was that passionate about SSL. So, tell me, are you really that passionate MMA vs DRG?

edit: my apologies to the OP for derailing, I'll leave this convo with this post. Cheers!

With all due respect to both of you, I guess the issue is already resolved and there is no need to escalate this any further.

Hider: This is OT, but I want to write a nice piece
BigFan: you are OT, not in this thread
Hider: its sc2 stuff too, and no other thread to post this
BigFan: OT!

I mean, Hider prefaced his post that its OT, so BigFan please give him this and let him be. He intended well and I think his article is a good contribution to the thread. His post about his intention to write is as welcome here as in any other sc2 thread, as there are other non-Inno posts here are well. Besides, I don't think he is trying to grab the spotlight away from inno. I mean you are right, and he gets it already. But there is no reason to prolong this.

BLIZZCON HYPE!!! INNO VS SOO
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
November 01 2017 06:53 GMT
#173
I know this isn't very much on topic, but I really love waffles. Strawberries and whipped cream are my favorite toppings.
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
November 01 2017 09:29 GMT
#174
On November 01 2017 15:53 Ej_ wrote:
I know this isn't very much on topic, but I really love waffles. Strawberries and whipped cream are my favorite toppings.

I think this very much off topic. But it is the nice kind of off topic. Blueberry and cheese are my favorite.

Blizzcon round 1 couldnt come any sooner, then I'd be lounging with Blueberry and cheese and wine with friends and hope that soO and INnoVation wins!
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
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