EPTextremely ambitious concept!!
Teamliquid Map Contest #9 Finalists - Page 2
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CHEONSOYUN
509 Posts
extremely ambitious concept!! | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
Edit: In arch of Janus there is no way for a lifted CC to fit through the space left by the empty mineral line on the main. | ||
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On September 16 2017 11:13 Solar424 wrote: Arch of Janus is the dumbest thing I've ever seen, so it's probably going to end up on the ladder because Blizzard wants something that's "interesting" and it will somehow decide who wins a WCS tournament in game 7, because everyone will veto it. With the 12 worker start you spawn with your main fully saturated, which is just absurd. I'm pretty sure the rush distance is shorter than Steppes of War, and your main mining out in 5 minutes won't matter because no one will play any macro games. Zerg will be forced to do a queen drop build because you need to take a 3rd before the 5 minute mark. Nah I think Janus is awful enough that even Blizzard won't touch it. | ||
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blunderfulguy
United States1415 Posts
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
Edit: The second supply depot finishes at the exact same time lings show up. That's with 13/12 though, if you go 12 pool the lings show up 5 seconds quicker. Also, Protoss can't get a Zealot out until 1:48. GLHF. | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
I dislike Blackpink, Neo Tropicana & Arch. So here I go: Blackpink: There are so many damn chokes on this map that it makes me wonder when the player and judges thought of this map if they thought zerg existed? Every damn choke on this map is either 2x or 3x wide that there is no place at all to get good surrounds. If you take the vertical third you have two different 2FF wide chokes to defend, GG. If you take the 3rd that hugs your main you now have a shit load of ramps you have to defend against which makes it that much harder. Plus there are plenty of OP spots to put tanks to shell almost the entire 3rd or at least force you through tight chokes. This map NEEDS to be opened up. But hey, it's an Avex map, so 4/4 (okay not quite, but still.) Neo Tropicana: Hello 1 tank on the 3 or 9 bases and he's shelling your natural, hitting any flanks, it's close to your nat. I don't get it. I think judges are still in the "lezeal" phase where they jerk off to every lezeal map. If this was cross only, sure it works, but when the main "QQ" for many maps is "the ramp is too big, the space is too tight, the 3rd is too abusible" and then they include Neo Tropicana...such a joke. Even with terran pushes, I'll drop 1 tank by the rocks and push your natural which has rocks on it to force the tight choke. So annoying. The four middle bases will NEVER get taken. They are too exposed without enough reward. Then we look at the rocks in the middle? What do they serve? Nothing at all besides abusing the early game. Let's not even mention stalkers getting buffed in the new patch which make any type of blink timing with all the different paths and chokes on this map broken as shit. But hey, as I said. "Lezeal" map! Let's vote! Arch of Janus: I'm not even going to try to defend this map. This is one of the main reasons it really makes me question the TLMC judges. Are you serious? You bitch about other maps with their bad naturals or their unfavorable thirds and then you include this? For fucks sake... At least we know what map players will veto 99 out of 100 times. But hey, it's "new" because it has gold mains and naturals. Seriously, this map getting a finalist is the biggest joke that has happened since Biome. ___ Then, let's question two more maps. Sky Garden & Eastwatch. Here is a quote from the TLMC post: "For all categories, when deciding to utilize a gold base, make sure there are some sort of risk associated with them. Otherwise, gold minerals bases with low risk tend to usually favor Zerg over the other races." Where the fuck are the risks for Sky Garden & Eastwatch golds? Why wouldn't zerg rush those gold bases as 3rds every game? "Well, there are rock towers that they can knock down." lol, yeah, have fun attacking that gold base where the zerg has a shit load more minerals to defend. "Well, you can attack from behind the gold base on Sky garden" .... this map is as big as Ron Jeremy's dick so good luck doing anything against that gold. My favorite thing about this scenario? "Well, in the iteration phase we can change this to regular minerals" Really? I could make my natural ramp smaller, I could choke off my third more, I could create less air space. Any good map maker could change their map to make it TLMC quality in 2 seconds if you told them what to change. ___ Every new map maker has things to consider, they have rules to follow, the judges tell you not to utilize maps a certain way. So you follow their input and then the reason you're disqualified is because "your 3rd is too easy" "the choke to your natural is too big" "the air space around your main is too large" yet you look at these other game breaking things and they just get glossed over. ___ Now, I love TLMC. I love the judges (monk, plexa, pengwin, KTV, templar, etc etc etc, you guys all deserve massive respect and I greatly appreciate everything you do for the community.) but come on. You flat out tell me one of the biggest weaknesses on one of my maps is the "3rd to 3rd is too straight" and therefore won't promote much army movement and then you vote in maps that have much bigger imbalances? Now I get it, it's really hard to narrow down ~150 maps to 16 in about 5 days but good lord. Shit, you flat out told me one of my maps was DQ'd because of "queen drops" being too OP. But hey, gold mains & naturals with 10 second rush distances is okay. I'd love to judge a TLMC, but ffs...as a SC2 mapper, I'd prefer to get as much rewards as I can. (Still waiting for TLMC8 rewards btw...) If I could judge maps and enter maps to get some compensation for all the work I've done I would do it in a heartbeat. Hell, Blizzard, I will create maps for you 24/7, Please invite me to join you team. I'll map make and create melee and campaign maps all day long. Instead, I have to spend time creating maps, only to get stupid excuses which apply to my map, but doesn't apply to others. "Your natural isn't safe enough but we'll include Arch of Janus..." "Your 3rd is too straight forward but I'll include Grime. "This map is too "standard" but we'll include Defender's Resort. I love TLMC...I really do. I'll say it here. Monk & Plexa are the two Team Liquid guys I respect the most. But come on, some of the finalist maps that get chosen make me want to rage quit and never create another map again... | ||
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MoonStone1
20 Posts
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Youngrustler
United States70 Posts
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nick00bot
326 Posts
Sometimes I feel like too many people here just love to go on autopilot and do their favorite builds on any map. I find a lot of the funnest things in starcraft is to adapt my style to the map, and maps like Dasan and Ulrena really allowed me to radically change what styles are viable. Either way, even if the map turns out to be a dud, I don't think we should rage at the judges for including it, because introducing these new concepts gives mapmakers tools that they can later incorporate to more standard maps. Really Arch of Janus is high fashion for maps | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
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TheFish7
United States2824 Posts
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Samro225am
Germany982 Posts
Have to say I understand Sid's rant all to well. Safe golds in a standard map? Oh well. | ||
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Lambertus
South Africa962 Posts
On September 16 2017 08:27 Elentos wrote: Just wait, Janus is gonna come around next Blizzcon to say hello. It cant, because you too easily can make an Anus out of it...Memes incoming to hot! :-D | ||
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Lambertus
South Africa962 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
Backwater: Three bases behind a single choke isn't something I generally like, but I think it's executed in an interesting and novel manner yet still remaining quite standard. Positioned where it is makes defending aggression on the first three bases different from previous maps with three bases behind a choke, and having the third be the pocket rather than the natural is pretty cool--it makes defending things like ling drops a bit different. I don't like the fact that players are forced to expand in a set order with really no other options, but otherwise the middle is pretty cool. 7.25/10 Blackpink: I don't have much to say about Blackpink. All the angles of attack make it so the vertical third is probably the more favoured one, and there are too many straightline paths between bases to my taste, which makes army movement a bit boring. The map is pretty choke heavy which may cause problems in TvZ, but considering the amount of different paths, I (unlike Sidian) don't think it's a death knell for the map. This map doesn't excite me, but I think it's perfectly serviceable. 7.25/10 Defender's Resort: This map looks really crude and unsophisticated with gaping holes in the map covered by forests and a number of very large paths. There's no interesting army movement to be had when you have a bunch of giant lanes. There were some many better maps in this category, and this was by far Youngrustler's weakest submission, so I'm shocked to see the judges select it. 5/10 Port Aleksander was way better. Neo Tropicana: Neo Tropicana has a bunch of problems. The natural is completely exposed to siege tank fire, and trying to wall off two ramps plus rocks is sure to be an interesting experience. Furthermore horizontal spawns is sure to be two base all-in central with these rush distances, vulnerable naturals and precarious thirds. The middle of the map is quite interesting (though taking those central bases seems dubious) it's a pity the main/nat/third have such problems. 3.5/10 Sky Garden: Sky Garden is quite a fun map conceptually though I have a few doubts about the execution. Holding fourth bases in horizontal spawns (horizontal? the spawns that aren't cross at any rate) seems difficult especially against drops. If you try for the lowground gold or the bases in front of it defending both that base and the main seem difficult, and any other possible fourths have their awkwardness to them. The long way around the map probably has the Galactic Process problem of no one using them. Lots of the implementation details of this map puzzle me, and the map just feels too large, so I'll tentatively give it a 6.5/10 while looking forward to being proven wrong. Acid Plant: This map is quite small and all the bases are quite close together which makes me question how takeable all four of the center bases are. Probably somewhat takeable since both players will be busy expanding laterally, but the distances between bases combined with the layeout makes me wonder if circle syndrome is stirring in its grave. I do find the middle quite thoughfully layed out, but I feel like the map would benefit from being bigger overall. When you're cutting geysers from center gold bases for no reason other than the fact that they're getting in the way it makes me feel that way. Additionally there isn't any true open areas on this map, and flanking takes a long time so timing pushes against zerg might be quite strong. 6.5/10 Eastwatch: A lot of bases on this map feel like huge pains to defend. Like what's the point of those bases in the central tetris piece? They're on your side of the map, but the opponent can get to them faster than you can? And the bases that can be closed off completely by collapsible rocks; forcing a zerg to break down two sets of rocks against siege tanks and rocks if they want to defend that base sounds fun. The gold bases likewise feel like a huge trap in that tucked away position with the collapsible rocks that can be destroyed from across the wall. If you stick to a normal expansion pattern (vertically) things aren't too wonky, but it feels even then like the whole game revolves around breaking rocks, and worrying about units shooting from across walls, and which can only be reached by breaking more rocks. 5/10 unless you're Dustin Browder. Grime: A novel expansion layout that isn't gimmicky is really appreciated. Some of the distances between bases might prove troublesome on the defense and the excess airspace isn't great, but the map feels really solid overall. I find the 1 width ramp a bit troublesome, since it makes dislodging an attacker camped there difficult. It isn't the splashiest or sexiest of maps, so I don't think it'll do well at all in the TLMC, but I like it a lot personally. 7.5/10 Catalyst: This is a slight twist on a super standard layout, but I do think it's done well especially in how it makes the central bases defendable. Not sure the rocks near the entrance of the natural are needed especially the collapsible rock towers (since no one is going to expand to the bases vertically adjacent to the mains early anyways. 7.5/10 Octane: Those islands exists exclusively to fill space around the edges of the map don't they... Not too fond of the thirds either--one feels too out there in the open, and the other feels too easily split off from the natural. The one-wide ramps feel weird too, and make things worse. All the bases in the corners are really close together and the middle of the map is boring.Overall the open areas feel really open, and the closed areas feel very closed, and it doesn't mesh too well. 6/10 Abiogenesis: The TLMC judges must have made a mistake since this looks like a rush map that doesn't suck. The really short rush distance with the narrow ramp is really well executed. This map manages both to be compact and feel rushy while not making expansions impossible to take. It's a pretty sweet map overall--very standard. 7.75/10 Battle on the Boardwalk: The superlong path around to the golds isn't something I particularly believe in. I think it'll be used to fuel gold-based powered cheese or not be taken, since defending it later is a pain especially with the long lane that is so easily forcefielded off. The middle of the map has a bunch of narrow passages that won't be used and then a bunch of bases that are really close together. I can see the idea of this map, but it isn't one I buy into personally. I just don't think it'll live up in practice. 6/10 God's Garden: Everything about this map tilts me from the ramps that look askew, to the decor and the layout. The fact that the main mineral line can be sieged from behind is questionable, but I think that in practice it'll be irritating but not map breaking since the siegeing army has to be so far out of position. Yet again the rocks feel a bit excessive making navigating the middle of the map pretty awkward. The lanes feel disconnected enough that armies will often get stuck in one lane and unable to react to armies heading to their main and forced to basetrade, but I guess the very strong watchtowers can help remedy that. Reapers have a lot of surface area to jump into the main, but that hasn't been that much of a concern in the meta recently. While I hate everything about this map I guess it isn't that bad objectively. 6.5/10 Anomaly: Mixed feelings about this map. The super-long map concept hasn't worked in the past, and this map could prove to be a complete split-map turtlefest. There's just not enough room to maneuver around the opponent. I'll give it credit for being new and having the potential to surprise, but 5/10 Arch of Janus: Fuck. I don't know where to start, so I won't try. 0/10 Neon Violet Square: Using holes on a map is a concept near and dear to my heart, and I do think that RQM has executed this idea in most respects much better than I did. I'm not fond of the pocket base behind the natural since holes there hold very little meaning. The layout is otherwise pretty nice and makes good (though light) use of the holes. 7.5/10 Overall how I'd currently rank them:
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Koivusto
Finland542 Posts
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Fatam
1986 Posts
(I remember last contest, a couple maps literally got ousted because the attacker's ramp to the 3rd was 2FF wide instead of 3 so carriers would supposedly be too strong. I shit you not lol.) I've definitely thought the same thing myself before. IMO the maps that shouldn't have made it are Anomaly, Arch of Janus, and maybe Eastwatch. Anomaly - just way too turtley and uninteresting. It just doesn't do anything worth a damn. Why why why. Neg is a great mapmaker 99% of the time but I hate this map. It's got a pretty overview so that probably helped a bit, but come on guys. Arch of Janus - really really cool concept but I think it needs to be scaled back a bit (maybe change the rock towers to rocks and have a small opening that can be blocked with a single 2x2 building, and also hopefully blizz would relax the mineral rules and let him reduce the mineral count so the rest of the map will be accessed a bit earlier than 5min. What else.. also increase the rush distance by another 10 seconds somehow. I think in the current state builds will be discovered where you literally cannot stop it and it's 100% autolose in certain MUs. Eastwatch - it's really similar to interloper and terraform, I feel. Even though it's fairly different. I may end up being wrong on this one it's just.. we already have maps like this. This one doesn't bother me as much as the other 2 though. ------------------------------------- Things I would change about the other maps: Backwater - I know me and avex have discussed this before, but there's gotttta be a better way to do that natural. Also, while the map is pretty, its readability could be improved. Blackpink - This map suffers a bit from "everywhere is almost the same width" syndrome. Needs a few more open spaces. Also @ the team, get an angled overview for this, it's a little hard to read from 90 degrees. Defender's Resort - it's not my favorite map but I can't see anything obvious I would change without really looking at it at length. Neo Tropicana - Consider making the 3/9 oclock areas lowground. I'm on the fence on this one since it would help the nat be a little safer but would make the thirds for zerg more harassable. Tough call. Move the 5:30/6:30/11:30/12:30 ramps out slightly to allow easier army movement around the town halls at those bases. Idk how to save the middle bases, probably won't be taken much, but if you make them golds it might be cancerous. Maybe just leave em and be ok with them almost never being taken. Adjust the far geysers on each nat, they are currently inefficient. Sky Garden - Change the golds nearest your mains into normal bases. Remove, or change the other gold bases' areas to lowground and slam them against that wall to maximize harrassability Transform the outer ring into airspace (looking at the bottom, from about 5:30 to 3:30). Acid Plant - nothing stands out to me atm, I'm pretty ok with these gold bases. If a zerg wants to take one it's like 2 seconds from the T/P's nat to either gold base so it's fine. Catalyst - nothing stands out atm Octane - one of my favorite finalists, small nitpick, I would consider changing the 2:30/8:30 ramps from 1FF to 2FF Abiogenesis - nothing stands out atm Battle on the Boardwalk - sidian already heard this part: adjust the main ramp and natural choke. I would also say, now that you've added rocks, I really wouldn't mind the back lanes where the corner golds are being widened slightly (except at the choke of course). I don't know that they have to be so narrow anymore. God's Garden - reduce the main surface area, check diligently for bugs with the ramps. Neon Violet Square - does the main mineral line need to be that close to the edge? Seems a bit cancerous for no good reason. We want to see the main features of the map used so why take that risk. 11:30/5:30 bases seem impossible to take ever, not sure what to do there. | ||
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Fatam
1986 Posts
Timmay's macro map ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/orxYIHQ.jpg) I'd say the thirds were a little unsafe but it was better than a couple finalists. Changing those thirds a bit to make them safer isn't a difficult fix. I'm guessing they thought the concept was too similar to sequencer, which I can kind of see. But it's pretty different. You could probably make a similar argument for his Hobgoblin map as well (simply make one of the thirds safer and it's better than some of the finalists).I think Meavis had a couple maps that could be argued for over a couple finalists. I liked this one ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/gZcm0y9.jpg) even though it's super simple and has a couple small issues (12/6 bases are impossible, for instance)Sidian's Blackwood Timbers is a pretty good map I think. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/pL6vSXN.jpg) That 9/3 o'clock base gives me a mapmaking stiffy The lighting is a bit dark but that is definitely an easy fix and not even something to consider really when judging.Zweck and Youngrustler also had multiple good ones (besides young's map that got in), although I think the judges punished them a bit because they apparently absolutely did not want ultra-standard and those two submitted some maps that fit that mold. Ziggurat's Yopico I feel is pretty underrated ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/rQ7RrlV.jpg) . It probably got put to pasture because they already took neon violet square. But maybe this map plays better, though it is much less aesthetically pleasing.I think my Ancient Confines (new) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/IElyhs7.jpg) or Crimson Aftermath (new) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/rmfZj6D.jpg) were both better than Anomaly and Janus in the new category. Shameless plug Probably forgetting a couple others. | ||
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Zweck
Germany211 Posts
Despite Janus ofc | ||
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