EPTStarCraft II Multiplayer - Major Design Changes - Page 36
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
On September 04 2017 05:57 opisska wrote: Is it possible to see what the current status of the changes is somewhere? The list linked in the OP seems to be different from both what people discussed right afterwards and from what people discuss now. These things are always terribly confusing unless you follow them all the time. I think the original link has the new changes colored red. | ||
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Siegetank_Dieter1
117 Posts
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Uberduder
United States13 Posts
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
On September 04 2017 11:17 Uberduder wrote: Can they please add something for zerg? Honestly there was nothing interesting added for them. Gas mules and a new early game sounds like a big deal but then with zerg its just tumbleweeds and a few random nerfs. Feel shafted. Blizzard have made it very clear Zerg is the "no fun allowed" race. The entire early game is defending until you have an army that won't get crushed, and even then it's a pain because you have to constantly be teching up to Hive, all the while trying to not die before you need those Hive units. Every expansion Protoss and Terran get new harass tools and Zerg gets nothing to deal with them. It doesn't help that 75% of the good foreigners play Zerg so that people think that it's OP and needs to be nerfed. | ||
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ChesterShin
6 Posts
Once the OpenAI or Deepmind bots come along, it's going to throw Blizzard into a frenzy of changes. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On September 04 2017 06:21 StarscreamG1 wrote: I think the original link has the new changes colored red. Yeah, that might be it, I thought these are just the most important ones, but the choice seemed weird  | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
On September 04 2017 02:15 InfCereal wrote: How is losing all your shit to PB any different from losing all your shit to scourge? PB doesn't counter carriers and it is only available late game, midgame zerg antiair is still useless. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On September 04 2017 11:30 Solar424 wrote: Blizzard have made it very clear Zerg is the "no fun allowed" race. The entire early game is defending until you have an army that won't get crushed, and even then it's a pain because you have to constantly be teching up to Hive, all the while trying to not die before you need those Hive units. Every expansion Protoss and Terran get new harass tools and Zerg gets nothing to deal with them. It doesn't help that 75% of the good foreigners play Zerg so that people think that it's OP and needs to be nerfed. Zerg isn't 100% defend in the early game. I see many pro games that apply early aggression with 6-12 lings. Mind you, it's not a commitment, but to buy time to get to the mid/late game. There are 2 ways to get into the late game. The first is to set up a defense and hope you survive early harass/pokes. The second is to apply pressure with your own harass/pokes to scare your opponent to commit to an attack. But these 2 options are on a spectrum, and I don't think Zerg is forced to play on one end. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 04 2017 02:15 InfCereal wrote: How is losing all your shit to PB any different from losing all your shit to scourge? Not sure how this would work out in sc2 but at least in bw you have to come from good angles because scourge die fast, you have to make sure it doesn't overkill, you actually have to invest larva for it, etc. It's more interesting than spamming the ability button a lot. | ||
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TheZergishOne
27 Posts
On September 05 2017 01:19 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Zerg isn't 100% defend in the early game. I see many pro games that apply early aggression with 6-12 lings. Mind you, it's not a commitment, but to buy time to get to the mid/late game. There are 2 ways to get into the late game. The first is to set up a defense and hope you survive early harass/pokes. The second is to apply pressure with your own harass/pokes to scare your opponent to commit to an attack. But these 2 options are on a spectrum, and I don't think Zerg is forced to play on one end. I wouldn't exactly call poking with lings aggression, its more like checking for gaps in their build. Sometimes people get so used to zerg being forced to sit at home for 6-10 minutes that they do foolish things like throw down a greedy third nexus or CC and if we don't check and punish it we'll get outmacro'd, funny as that sounds. | ||
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
On September 04 2017 11:30 Solar424 wrote: Blizzard have made it very clear Zerg is the "no fun allowed" race. The entire early game is defending until you have an army that won't get crushed, and even then it's a pain because you have to constantly be teching up to Hive, all the while trying to not die before you need those Hive units. Every expansion Protoss and Terran get new harass tools and Zerg gets nothing to deal with them. It doesn't help that 75% of the good foreigners play Zerg so that people think that it's OP and needs to be nerfed. Bullshit, if anything the larva nerf and the mineral reductions has made macro Zerg weaker, and things like improved Ultralisks, Vipers, Lurkers, Overlord drops, and Ravagers are all brilliant offensive options that see regular play at higher levels. The mineral buff alone is going to be very beneficial to greedy Zerg's that want to play and defend on 3 bases while they spread creep/posture for a 4th, that's a much different scenario then racing for a 4th and any economy damage at all along with your bases being mined out is auto gg. Now with more minerals again, macro styles will be stronger because there will be more recovery room from harass. New Entangle ability seems promising but I've heard the range on it is kind of bad and they get annihilated by High Templar, what's the scoop on that? | ||
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the_last_terran1
48 Posts
On September 04 2017 11:30 Solar424 wrote: Blizzard have made it very clear Zerg is the "no fun allowed" race. The entire early game is defending until you have an army that won't get crushed, and even then it's a pain because you have to constantly be teching up to Hive, all the while trying to not die before you need those Hive units. Every expansion Protoss and Terran get new harass tools and Zerg gets nothing to deal with them. It doesn't help that 75% of the good foreigners play Zerg so that people think that it's OP and needs to be nerfed. I think you re miss reading the problem. Zerg is now boring cause the economy has changed. The Queen is coming too late and the production of drones is decreased from 13 workkers to 11 workers... So their start is not SO bad but it s slower... Nobody is askking to reduce the number of worker but some progamers would like to get back to this economy models - like Byun.. What i see now is just a rush to the late game with some classical attacks.. | ||
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Siegetank_Dieter1
117 Posts
Tell me one factory unit that doesn't get hardcountered by swarmhosts. What are mech players supposed to do ? I'm glad they finally realized that this unit needs change. | ||
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Xamo
Spain881 Posts
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
https://sc2casts.com/cast22295-Dear-vs-Dark-Best-of-7-2017-StarLeague-S2-Premier-Playoffs-Match-1 Protoss can open 1 or 2 oracles, make a phoenix to kill scouting overlords, then make more oracles. Each oracle takes roughly 30 seconds to be created (with chronoboost). 4 is the magic number that can snipe queens and spores, and protoss can have them before you even realise. If zerg manages to defend without taking damage, they still can't move out before having a big hydra force or chain fungals available, leaving protoss with map control and free to expand and tech. Now with the fungal nerf and chronoboost buff, i belive mass oracle is something that needs to be adressed. | ||
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
On September 04 2017 11:30 Solar424 wrote: Blizzard have made it very clear Zerg is the "no fun allowed" race. The entire early game is defending until you have an army that won't get crushed, and even then it's a pain because you have to constantly be teching up to Hive, all the while trying to not die before you need those Hive units. Every expansion Protoss and Terran get new harass tools and Zerg gets nothing to deal with them. It doesn't help that 75% of the good foreigners play Zerg so that people think that it's OP and needs to be nerfed. http://aligulac.com/results/events/70578-GSL-2017-Season-3/ This GSL season, zerg have winrate of nearly 60% vs Protoss Zerg have winrate of 47% vs Terrans http://aligulac.com/results/events/70381-SSL-2017-Season-2/ This SSL season, zerg have a winrate of 57% vs Protoss Zerg have a winrate of 48% vs Terrans Keep in mind that this SSL number takes into consideration Byul's record of 1 win and 7 losses (he hasnt been practicing and is losing to one attack from other players, its apparent he doesnt belong in this league this season) even with byuls 29% winrate for maps (7-17, 1-7 for series), zerg still has a huge winrate advantage over protoss and is equal to terrans at 48%. you dont "get something" just because everyone else is "getting something." the reality is that zergs are overperforming in every facet of this game outside of the top two premier leagues of Korea, and even there, zergs are breaking even with terrans and winning 60% versus protoss. your level of delusion got some chuckles out of me. you missed the ZERG UP circlejerk by about 7 years bud | ||
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
On September 06 2017 00:01 xTJx wrote: A few weeks ago i made a post about how mass oracles have been a thing in masters league since the beta. As usual people here that play at a much lower level than me said it was nonsense. I'd like you to take a look at games 1,2 and 3 from the last SSL series (Dark vs Dear): https://sc2casts.com/cast22295-Dear-vs-Dark-Best-of-7-2017-StarLeague-S2-Premier-Playoffs-Match-1 Protoss can open 1 or 2 oracles, make a phoenix to kill scouting overlords, then make more oracles. Each oracle takes roughly 30 seconds to be created (with chronoboost). 4 is the magic number that can snipe queens and spores, and protoss can have them before you even realise. If zerg manages to defend without taking damage, they still can't move out before having a big hydra force or chain fungals available, leaving protoss with map control and free to expand and tech. Now with the fungal nerf and chronoboost buff, i belive mass oracle is something that needs to be adressed. if only there was some non-evolution-chamber-requiring building or strong early game antiair unit that, when produced en masse, could deflect air units from protoss for a fraction of the cost being in master in NA is not a qualification to speak on balance, especially if you can only achieve it with one race. if protoss is winning 40% at the professional level, taking full advantage of oracle builds (they are), then there really is not a problem. protoss are weak to zerg in this matchup and we have about years of data from LOTV to support that claim whereas the oracle whine is ultimately anecdotal and solvable by playstyle choice. asking for a patch for this is laughable | ||
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
On September 06 2017 01:00 c0sm0naut wrote: if only there was some non-evolution-chamber-requiring building or strong early game antiair unit that, when produced en masse, could deflect air units from protoss for a fraction of the cost being in master in NA is not a qualification to speak on balance, especially if you can only achieve it with one race. if protoss is winning 40% at the professional level, taking full advantage of oracle builds (they are), then there really is not a problem. protoss are weak to zerg in this matchup and we have about years of data from LOTV to support that claim whereas the oracle whine is ultimately anecdotal and solvable by playstyle choice. asking for a patch for this is laughable Sure dude, because game quality doesn't matter, let protoss mass their 1 unit because the winrate is not at 50%. As we know players are all the same and what that matters are statistics, so by your own logic Terran is op vs Zerg right now because there's a 54% winrate, even when 3 zergs in GSL were foreigners. | ||
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