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StarCraft II Multiplayer - Major Design Changes - Page 36

Forum Index > SC2 General
832 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 34 35 36 37 38 42 Next All
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
September 03 2017 20:57 GMT
#701
Is it possible to see what the current status of the changes is somewhere? The list linked in the OP seems to be different from both what people discussed right afterwards and from what people discuss now. These things are always terribly confusing unless you follow them all the time.
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
StarscreamG1
Profile Joined February 2011
Portugal1653 Posts
September 03 2017 21:21 GMT
#702
On September 04 2017 05:57 opisska wrote:
Is it possible to see what the current status of the changes is somewhere? The list linked in the OP seems to be different from both what people discussed right afterwards and from what people discuss now. These things are always terribly confusing unless you follow them all the time.

I think the original link has the new changes colored red.
Siegetank_Dieter1
Profile Joined August 2017
117 Posts
September 03 2017 21:39 GMT
#703
one of the best changes is the raven redesign... finally mech vs mech won't be all about turtle into mass raven, liberator range is still stupid tho.
Uberduder
Profile Joined May 2013
United States13 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-04 02:18:15
September 04 2017 02:17 GMT
#704
Can they please add something for zerg? Honestly there was nothing interesting added for them. Gas mules and a new early game sounds like a big deal but then with zerg its just tumbleweeds and a few random nerfs. Feel shafted.
If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't.
Solar424
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
United States4001 Posts
September 04 2017 02:30 GMT
#705
On September 04 2017 11:17 Uberduder wrote:
Can they please add something for zerg? Honestly there was nothing interesting added for them. Gas mules and a new early game sounds like a big deal but then with zerg its just tumbleweeds and a few random nerfs. Feel shafted.

Blizzard have made it very clear Zerg is the "no fun allowed" race. The entire early game is defending until you have an army that won't get crushed, and even then it's a pain because you have to constantly be teching up to Hive, all the while trying to not die before you need those Hive units. Every expansion Protoss and Terran get new harass tools and Zerg gets nothing to deal with them. It doesn't help that 75% of the good foreigners play Zerg so that people think that it's OP and needs to be nerfed.
ChesterShin
Profile Joined November 2015
6 Posts
September 04 2017 03:58 GMT
#706
Every time Blizzard makes changes, the strategies of the pro players adjust. Once the strategies adjust, the balance shifts and Blizzard understands better the full effects of their changes. Blizzard then make more changes. The cycle continues. Will the changes ever stop or will the changes continue to occur for the next decade? I'm not saying that this is bad or good. It goes both ways.

Once the OpenAI or Deepmind bots come along, it's going to throw Blizzard into a frenzy of changes.
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
September 04 2017 14:15 GMT
#707
On September 04 2017 06:21 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2017 05:57 opisska wrote:
Is it possible to see what the current status of the changes is somewhere? The list linked in the OP seems to be different from both what people discussed right afterwards and from what people discuss now. These things are always terribly confusing unless you follow them all the time.

I think the original link has the new changes colored red.


Yeah, that might be it, I thought these are just the most important ones, but the choice seemed weird
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
September 04 2017 15:52 GMT
#708
Hmm, that Protoss changes are actually interesting, probably will give it a try.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
xTJx
Profile Joined May 2014
Brazil419 Posts
September 04 2017 16:04 GMT
#709
On September 04 2017 02:15 InfCereal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2017 01:43 xTJx wrote:
Just remove Parasitic Bomb, rework the corruptor or put scourge in the game. 7 years of bandaid anti-air for zerg is enough.


How is losing all your shit to PB any different from losing all your shit to scourge?


PB doesn't counter carriers and it is only available late game, midgame zerg antiair is still useless.
No prejudices, i hate everyone equally.
Jett.Jack.Alvir
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Canada2250 Posts
September 04 2017 16:19 GMT
#710
On September 04 2017 11:30 Solar424 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2017 11:17 Uberduder wrote:
Can they please add something for zerg? Honestly there was nothing interesting added for them. Gas mules and a new early game sounds like a big deal but then with zerg its just tumbleweeds and a few random nerfs. Feel shafted.

Blizzard have made it very clear Zerg is the "no fun allowed" race. The entire early game is defending until you have an army that won't get crushed, and even then it's a pain because you have to constantly be teching up to Hive, all the while trying to not die before you need those Hive units. Every expansion Protoss and Terran get new harass tools and Zerg gets nothing to deal with them. It doesn't help that 75% of the good foreigners play Zerg so that people think that it's OP and needs to be nerfed.

Zerg isn't 100% defend in the early game. I see many pro games that apply early aggression with 6-12 lings. Mind you, it's not a commitment, but to buy time to get to the mid/late game.

There are 2 ways to get into the late game. The first is to set up a defense and hope you survive early harass/pokes. The second is to apply pressure with your own harass/pokes to scare your opponent to commit to an attack.

But these 2 options are on a spectrum, and I don't think Zerg is forced to play on one end.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-04 17:53:42
September 04 2017 17:53 GMT
#711
On September 04 2017 02:15 InfCereal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2017 01:43 xTJx wrote:
Just remove Parasitic Bomb, rework the corruptor or put scourge in the game. 7 years of bandaid anti-air for zerg is enough.


How is losing all your shit to PB any different from losing all your shit to scourge?

Not sure how this would work out in sc2 but at least in bw you have to come from good angles because scourge die fast, you have to make sure it doesn't overkill, you actually have to invest larva for it, etc.
It's more interesting than spamming the ability button a lot.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
TheZergishOne
Profile Joined October 2016
27 Posts
September 04 2017 19:16 GMT
#712
On September 05 2017 01:19 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
Zerg isn't 100% defend in the early game. I see many pro games that apply early aggression with 6-12 lings. Mind you, it's not a commitment, but to buy time to get to the mid/late game.

There are 2 ways to get into the late game. The first is to set up a defense and hope you survive early harass/pokes. The second is to apply pressure with your own harass/pokes to scare your opponent to commit to an attack.

But these 2 options are on a spectrum, and I don't think Zerg is forced to play on one end.



I wouldn't exactly call poking with lings aggression, its more like checking for gaps in their build. Sometimes people get so used to zerg being forced to sit at home for 6-10 minutes that they do foolish things like throw down a greedy third nexus or CC and if we don't check and punish it we'll get outmacro'd, funny as that sounds.
jpg06051992
Profile Joined July 2015
United States580 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-04 19:19:20
September 04 2017 19:18 GMT
#713
On September 04 2017 11:30 Solar424 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2017 11:17 Uberduder wrote:
Can they please add something for zerg? Honestly there was nothing interesting added for them. Gas mules and a new early game sounds like a big deal but then with zerg its just tumbleweeds and a few random nerfs. Feel shafted.

Blizzard have made it very clear Zerg is the "no fun allowed" race. The entire early game is defending until you have an army that won't get crushed, and even then it's a pain because you have to constantly be teching up to Hive, all the while trying to not die before you need those Hive units. Every expansion Protoss and Terran get new harass tools and Zerg gets nothing to deal with them. It doesn't help that 75% of the good foreigners play Zerg so that people think that it's OP and needs to be nerfed.


Bullshit, if anything the larva nerf and the mineral reductions has made macro Zerg weaker, and things like improved Ultralisks, Vipers, Lurkers, Overlord drops, and Ravagers are all brilliant offensive options that see regular play at higher levels.

The mineral buff alone is going to be very beneficial to greedy Zerg's that want to play and defend on 3 bases while they spread creep/posture for a 4th, that's a much different scenario then racing for a 4th and any economy damage at all along with your bases being mined out is auto gg. Now with more minerals again, macro styles will be stronger because there will be more recovery room from harass.

New Entangle ability seems promising but I've heard the range on it is kind of bad and they get annihilated by High Templar, what's the scoop on that?
"SO MANY BANELINGS!"
the_last_terran1
Profile Joined September 2017
48 Posts
September 04 2017 19:36 GMT
#714
On September 04 2017 11:30 Solar424 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2017 11:17 Uberduder wrote:
Can they please add something for zerg? Honestly there was nothing interesting added for them. Gas mules and a new early game sounds like a big deal but then with zerg its just tumbleweeds and a few random nerfs. Feel shafted.

Blizzard have made it very clear Zerg is the "no fun allowed" race. The entire early game is defending until you have an army that won't get crushed, and even then it's a pain because you have to constantly be teching up to Hive, all the while trying to not die before you need those Hive units. Every expansion Protoss and Terran get new harass tools and Zerg gets nothing to deal with them. It doesn't help that 75% of the good foreigners play Zerg so that people think that it's OP and needs to be nerfed.


I think you re miss reading the problem. Zerg is now boring cause the economy has changed. The Queen is coming too late and the production of drones is decreased from 13 workkers to 11 workers... So their start is not SO bad but it s slower... Nobody is askking to reduce the number of worker but some progamers would like to get back to this economy models - like Byun.. What i see now is just a rush to the late game with some classical attacks..
Siegetank_Dieter1
Profile Joined August 2017
117 Posts
September 04 2017 20:58 GMT
#715
i cant wait for them to nerf the swarmhost. This unit is beyond broken vs mech.

Tell me one factory unit that doesn't get hardcountered by swarmhosts.

What are mech players supposed to do ?

I'm glad they finally realized that this unit needs change.
Xamo
Profile Joined April 2012
Spain877 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-04 21:23:33
September 04 2017 21:19 GMT
#716
[Nonsense deleted]
My life for Aiur. You got a piece of me, baby. IIIIIIiiiiiii.
xTJx
Profile Joined May 2014
Brazil419 Posts
September 05 2017 15:01 GMT
#717
A few weeks ago i made a post about how mass oracles have been a thing in masters league since the beta. As usual people here that play at a much lower level than me said it was nonsense. I'd like you to take a look at games 1,2 and 3 from the last SSL series (Dark vs Dear):

https://sc2casts.com/cast22295-Dear-vs-Dark-Best-of-7-2017-StarLeague-S2-Premier-Playoffs-Match-1

Protoss can open 1 or 2 oracles, make a phoenix to kill scouting overlords, then make more oracles. Each oracle takes roughly 30 seconds to be created (with chronoboost). 4 is the magic number that can snipe queens and spores, and protoss can have them before you even realise. If zerg manages to defend without taking damage, they still can't move out before having a big hydra force or chain fungals available, leaving protoss with map control and free to expand and tech.

Now with the fungal nerf and chronoboost buff, i belive mass oracle is something that needs to be adressed.
No prejudices, i hate everyone equally.
c0sm0naut
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1229 Posts
September 05 2017 15:56 GMT
#718
On September 04 2017 11:30 Solar424 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2017 11:17 Uberduder wrote:
Can they please add something for zerg? Honestly there was nothing interesting added for them. Gas mules and a new early game sounds like a big deal but then with zerg its just tumbleweeds and a few random nerfs. Feel shafted.

Blizzard have made it very clear Zerg is the "no fun allowed" race. The entire early game is defending until you have an army that won't get crushed, and even then it's a pain because you have to constantly be teching up to Hive, all the while trying to not die before you need those Hive units. Every expansion Protoss and Terran get new harass tools and Zerg gets nothing to deal with them. It doesn't help that 75% of the good foreigners play Zerg so that people think that it's OP and needs to be nerfed.


http://aligulac.com/results/events/70578-GSL-2017-Season-3/

This GSL season, zerg have winrate of nearly 60% vs Protoss
Zerg have winrate of 47% vs Terrans

http://aligulac.com/results/events/70381-SSL-2017-Season-2/

This SSL season, zerg have a winrate of 57% vs Protoss
Zerg have a winrate of 48% vs Terrans


Keep in mind that this SSL number takes into consideration Byul's record of 1 win and 7 losses (he hasnt been practicing and is losing to one attack from other players, its apparent he doesnt belong in this league this season)

even with byuls 29% winrate for maps (7-17, 1-7 for series), zerg still has a huge winrate advantage over protoss and is equal to terrans at 48%.



you dont "get something" just because everyone else is "getting something." the reality is that zergs are overperforming in every facet of this game outside of the top two premier leagues of Korea, and even there, zergs are breaking even with terrans and winning 60% versus protoss. your level of delusion got some chuckles out of me. you missed the ZERG UP circlejerk by about 7 years bud
c0sm0naut
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1229 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-05 16:04:38
September 05 2017 16:00 GMT
#719
On September 06 2017 00:01 xTJx wrote:
A few weeks ago i made a post about how mass oracles have been a thing in masters league since the beta. As usual people here that play at a much lower level than me said it was nonsense. I'd like you to take a look at games 1,2 and 3 from the last SSL series (Dark vs Dear):

https://sc2casts.com/cast22295-Dear-vs-Dark-Best-of-7-2017-StarLeague-S2-Premier-Playoffs-Match-1

Protoss can open 1 or 2 oracles, make a phoenix to kill scouting overlords, then make more oracles. Each oracle takes roughly 30 seconds to be created (with chronoboost). 4 is the magic number that can snipe queens and spores, and protoss can have them before you even realise. If zerg manages to defend without taking damage, they still can't move out before having a big hydra force or chain fungals available, leaving protoss with map control and free to expand and tech.

Now with the fungal nerf and chronoboost buff, i belive mass oracle is something that needs to be adressed.


if only there was some non-evolution-chamber-requiring building or strong early game antiair unit that, when produced en masse, could deflect air units from protoss for a fraction of the cost

being in master in NA is not a qualification to speak on balance, especially if you can only achieve it with one race. if protoss is winning 40% at the professional level, taking full advantage of oracle builds (they are), then there really is not a problem. protoss are weak to zerg in this matchup and we have about years of data from LOTV to support that claim whereas the oracle whine is ultimately anecdotal and solvable by playstyle choice. asking for a patch for this is laughable
xTJx
Profile Joined May 2014
Brazil419 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-05 21:03:12
September 05 2017 18:39 GMT
#720
On September 06 2017 01:00 c0sm0naut wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2017 00:01 xTJx wrote:
A few weeks ago i made a post about how mass oracles have been a thing in masters league since the beta. As usual people here that play at a much lower level than me said it was nonsense. I'd like you to take a look at games 1,2 and 3 from the last SSL series (Dark vs Dear):

https://sc2casts.com/cast22295-Dear-vs-Dark-Best-of-7-2017-StarLeague-S2-Premier-Playoffs-Match-1

Protoss can open 1 or 2 oracles, make a phoenix to kill scouting overlords, then make more oracles. Each oracle takes roughly 30 seconds to be created (with chronoboost). 4 is the magic number that can snipe queens and spores, and protoss can have them before you even realise. If zerg manages to defend without taking damage, they still can't move out before having a big hydra force or chain fungals available, leaving protoss with map control and free to expand and tech.

Now with the fungal nerf and chronoboost buff, i belive mass oracle is something that needs to be adressed.


if only there was some non-evolution-chamber-requiring building or strong early game antiair unit that, when produced en masse, could deflect air units from protoss for a fraction of the cost

being in master in NA is not a qualification to speak on balance, especially if you can only achieve it with one race. if protoss is winning 40% at the professional level, taking full advantage of oracle builds (they are), then there really is not a problem. protoss are weak to zerg in this matchup and we have about years of data from LOTV to support that claim whereas the oracle whine is ultimately anecdotal and solvable by playstyle choice. asking for a patch for this is laughable


Sure dude, because game quality doesn't matter, let protoss mass their 1 unit because the winrate is not at 50%.

As we know players are all the same and what that matters are statistics, so by your own logic Terran is op vs Zerg right now because there's a 54% winrate, even when 3 zergs in GSL were foreigners.
No prejudices, i hate everyone equally.
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