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4 Posts
Meeting a day early, the four member of Group E,  Maru, jjakji,  Solar and  Patience, gathered to kick off a blockbuster week consisting of four GSL groups.
After winning game one against Maru on the back of a doom drop and an attack on Maru's third, jjakji put on a clinic in game two. He inflicted damage with proxy reapers and defended a banshee before finishing Maru off with a cyclone/tank/viking push.
Patience won the first game on Abyssal Reef when his immortal/sentry heavy army plowed straight through Solar's fourth. He followed that up with a crisp adept timing that sent him to winner's match.
After a close game one in which jjakji almost managed a comeback despite losing 35 workers, Patience went wire to wire on Odyssey. Early pressure killed 10 workers and pinned jjajki on two bases. Patience wiped out two pushes to become the first player to advance from the group.
The losers' match was a long and scrappy affair. Newkirk Precinct and Frost were nearly mined out as Solar and Maru’s highly advanced armies were reduced to pitiful scraps. After a handful of corruptors closed out game one, hydra/ling/bane took it for Solar in the second.
Solar was once more brought to the brink in game one of the deciding series, but he earned the win on no mining bases. Up a game, Solar lost 16 drones to jjakji's hellions, but assembled a solid ling/bane/infestor army. Key fungals and a final runby saw Solar into the Round of 16.
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Maru played great TvZ, he'd probably have won vs any zerg apart from Solar or Dark.
Shame TvT snipers got him again, it's 3 seasons in a row now
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On July 19 2017 01:28 Fango wrote:
Maru played great TvZ, he'd probably have won vs any zerg apart from Solar or Dark.
Shame TvT snipers got him again, it's 3 seasons in a row now
I haven't been following him too much but is Jjakji really considered a TvT sniper?
Also GG Solar! Always somewhat underrated IMO.
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poor Maru and nerf swarmhosts pls
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On July 19 2017 02:44 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 01:28 Fango wrote:
Maru played great TvZ, he'd probably have won vs any zerg apart from Solar or Dark.
Shame TvT snipers got him again, it's 3 seasons in a row now I haven't been following him too much but is Jjakji really considered a TvT sniper? Also GG Solar! Always somewhat underrated IMO.
No, jjakji hasn't knocked out any top-tier Terrans until now with Maru. Gumiho, aLive, and Ryung are the big TvT snipers.
Solar's ZvT is pretty creative but usually not the best. Hydra/Ling/Bane beats up Terran just as well as it beats up Protoss though. There isn't really any good Terran counter atm. Bio-Tank and 4M are both suboptimal. Even guys like Maru or INnoVation are losing to it.
For whatever reason (the usual Korean inertia) Hydra/Ling/Bane hasn't really caught on with KR Zergs just yet; Solar and Leenock are the only two that I've seen use the build extensively. Whether the build is actually OP can't really be determined until we have a larger sample size, but at the very least Hydra/Ling/Bane is a very strong ZvT build (and of course a very strong ZvP build). That much cross-MU strength raises a few red flags already, so it's definitely something to keep an eye on. Time will tell.
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This was a great group! Matches were much closer than results suggest. More of that please!
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United States1960 Posts
On July 19 2017 04:09 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 02:44 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On July 19 2017 01:28 Fango wrote:
Maru played great TvZ, he'd probably have won vs any zerg apart from Solar or Dark.
Shame TvT snipers got him again, it's 3 seasons in a row now I haven't been following him too much but is Jjakji really considered a TvT sniper? Also GG Solar! Always somewhat underrated IMO. No, jjakji hasn't knocked out any top-tier Terrans until now with Maru. Gumiho, aLive, and Ryung are the big TvT snipers. Solar's ZvT is pretty creative but usually not the best. Hydra/Ling/Bane beats up Terran just as well as it beats up Protoss though. There isn't really any good Terran counter atm. Bio-Tank and 4M are both suboptimal. Even guys like Maru or INnoVation are losing to it. For whatever reason (the usual Korean inertia) Hydra/Ling/Bane hasn't really caught on with KR Zergs just yet; Solar and Leenock are the only two that I've seen use the build extensively. Whether the build is actually OP can't really be determined until we have a larger sample size, but at the very least Hydra/Ling/Bane is a very strong ZvT build (and of course a very strong ZvP build). That much cross-MU strength raises a few red flags already, so it's definitely something to keep an eye on. Time will tell.
Why would ByuL go hydra when he has the best muta control in the world? Why would Dark use hydras (btw he was using hydra/ling/bane in December) when he has the best late game spell caster control in the world? soO goes hydras, but he just loses no matter what he does in ZvT. Rogue uses hydras, so Solar and Leenock aren't the only ones. This build was first played by Koreans way back in 2016 so I don't think there's any of this inertia that you're describing. That phenomena was the product of the team environment and the fact that Koreans did not have any room for experimentation in offline matches so they just practiced and played the consensus best style. That's not really a thing anymore and I think we've seen a lot less of its influence.
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On July 19 2017 05:21 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 04:09 pvsnp wrote:On July 19 2017 02:44 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On July 19 2017 01:28 Fango wrote:
Maru played great TvZ, he'd probably have won vs any zerg apart from Solar or Dark.
Shame TvT snipers got him again, it's 3 seasons in a row now I haven't been following him too much but is Jjakji really considered a TvT sniper? Also GG Solar! Always somewhat underrated IMO. No, jjakji hasn't knocked out any top-tier Terrans until now with Maru. Gumiho, aLive, and Ryung are the big TvT snipers. Solar's ZvT is pretty creative but usually not the best. Hydra/Ling/Bane beats up Terran just as well as it beats up Protoss though. There isn't really any good Terran counter atm. Bio-Tank and 4M are both suboptimal. Even guys like Maru or INnoVation are losing to it. For whatever reason (the usual Korean inertia) Hydra/Ling/Bane hasn't really caught on with KR Zergs just yet; Solar and Leenock are the only two that I've seen use the build extensively. Whether the build is actually OP can't really be determined until we have a larger sample size, but at the very least Hydra/Ling/Bane is a very strong ZvT build (and of course a very strong ZvP build). That much cross-MU strength raises a few red flags already, so it's definitely something to keep an eye on. Time will tell. Why would ByuL go hydra when he has the best muta control in the world?
I also asked myself this question after SSL on Monday.
I don't think hydra/ling/bane's strength in ZvT is anywhere close to problematic.
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On July 19 2017 05:41 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 05:21 mizenhauer wrote:On July 19 2017 04:09 pvsnp wrote:On July 19 2017 02:44 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On July 19 2017 01:28 Fango wrote:
Maru played great TvZ, he'd probably have won vs any zerg apart from Solar or Dark.
Shame TvT snipers got him again, it's 3 seasons in a row now I haven't been following him too much but is Jjakji really considered a TvT sniper? Also GG Solar! Always somewhat underrated IMO. No, jjakji hasn't knocked out any top-tier Terrans until now with Maru. Gumiho, aLive, and Ryung are the big TvT snipers. Solar's ZvT is pretty creative but usually not the best. Hydra/Ling/Bane beats up Terran just as well as it beats up Protoss though. There isn't really any good Terran counter atm. Bio-Tank and 4M are both suboptimal. Even guys like Maru or INnoVation are losing to it. For whatever reason (the usual Korean inertia) Hydra/Ling/Bane hasn't really caught on with KR Zergs just yet; Solar and Leenock are the only two that I've seen use the build extensively. Whether the build is actually OP can't really be determined until we have a larger sample size, but at the very least Hydra/Ling/Bane is a very strong ZvT build (and of course a very strong ZvP build). That much cross-MU strength raises a few red flags already, so it's definitely something to keep an eye on. Time will tell. Why would ByuL go hydra when he has the best muta control in the world? I also asked myself this question after SSL on Monday. I don't think hydra/ling/bane's strength in ZvT is anywhere close to problematic.
Why would anyone use any build? Because it wins games.
It could very well be the case that Hydra/Ling/Bane just so happens to fit Solar very well and he can achieve disproportionate success with it. That's why I said we need a larger sample size before drawing any conclusions.
Solar's use of it defeated INnoVation in SSL. Scarlett did the same in GSL. Snute beat MajOr+Kelazhur at Valencia. And today Solar beat Maru. It's not like every single Zerg is suddenly winning with Hydra/Ling/Bane, but there's something there. When top-tier Korean Terrans like INnoVation and Maru are losing games to a new build, it sets off some red flags. Nothing conclusive yet, but enough to draw my attention.
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On July 19 2017 05:43 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 05:41 Elentos wrote:On July 19 2017 05:21 mizenhauer wrote:On July 19 2017 04:09 pvsnp wrote:On July 19 2017 02:44 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On July 19 2017 01:28 Fango wrote:
Maru played great TvZ, he'd probably have won vs any zerg apart from Solar or Dark.
Shame TvT snipers got him again, it's 3 seasons in a row now I haven't been following him too much but is Jjakji really considered a TvT sniper? Also GG Solar! Always somewhat underrated IMO. No, jjakji hasn't knocked out any top-tier Terrans until now with Maru. Gumiho, aLive, and Ryung are the big TvT snipers. Solar's ZvT is pretty creative but usually not the best. Hydra/Ling/Bane beats up Terran just as well as it beats up Protoss though. There isn't really any good Terran counter atm. Bio-Tank and 4M are both suboptimal. Even guys like Maru or INnoVation are losing to it. For whatever reason (the usual Korean inertia) Hydra/Ling/Bane hasn't really caught on with KR Zergs just yet; Solar and Leenock are the only two that I've seen use the build extensively. Whether the build is actually OP can't really be determined until we have a larger sample size, but at the very least Hydra/Ling/Bane is a very strong ZvT build (and of course a very strong ZvP build). That much cross-MU strength raises a few red flags already, so it's definitely something to keep an eye on. Time will tell. Why would ByuL go hydra when he has the best muta control in the world? I also asked myself this question after SSL on Monday. I don't think hydra/ling/bane's strength in ZvT is anywhere close to problematic. Why would anyone use any build? Because it wins games.
Mutas would have been a way better choice on Overgrowth. At the very least better than the lurker transition.
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On July 19 2017 05:46 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 05:43 pvsnp wrote:On July 19 2017 05:41 Elentos wrote:On July 19 2017 05:21 mizenhauer wrote:On July 19 2017 04:09 pvsnp wrote:On July 19 2017 02:44 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On July 19 2017 01:28 Fango wrote:
Maru played great TvZ, he'd probably have won vs any zerg apart from Solar or Dark.
Shame TvT snipers got him again, it's 3 seasons in a row now I haven't been following him too much but is Jjakji really considered a TvT sniper? Also GG Solar! Always somewhat underrated IMO. No, jjakji hasn't knocked out any top-tier Terrans until now with Maru. Gumiho, aLive, and Ryung are the big TvT snipers. Solar's ZvT is pretty creative but usually not the best. Hydra/Ling/Bane beats up Terran just as well as it beats up Protoss though. There isn't really any good Terran counter atm. Bio-Tank and 4M are both suboptimal. Even guys like Maru or INnoVation are losing to it. For whatever reason (the usual Korean inertia) Hydra/Ling/Bane hasn't really caught on with KR Zergs just yet; Solar and Leenock are the only two that I've seen use the build extensively. Whether the build is actually OP can't really be determined until we have a larger sample size, but at the very least Hydra/Ling/Bane is a very strong ZvT build (and of course a very strong ZvP build). That much cross-MU strength raises a few red flags already, so it's definitely something to keep an eye on. Time will tell. Why would ByuL go hydra when he has the best muta control in the world? I also asked myself this question after SSL on Monday. I don't think hydra/ling/bane's strength in ZvT is anywhere close to problematic. Why would anyone use any build? Because it wins games. Mutas would have been a way better choice on Overgrowth. At the very least better than the lurker transition.
Lurkers against Terran seem shitty every time I've seen it. Ultras seem to be the better transition. But Hydra/Ling/Bane is a midgame build, not a lategame one. What comes after is a wholly different issue.
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On July 19 2017 05:50 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 05:46 Elentos wrote:On July 19 2017 05:43 pvsnp wrote:On July 19 2017 05:41 Elentos wrote:On July 19 2017 05:21 mizenhauer wrote:On July 19 2017 04:09 pvsnp wrote:On July 19 2017 02:44 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On July 19 2017 01:28 Fango wrote:
Maru played great TvZ, he'd probably have won vs any zerg apart from Solar or Dark.
Shame TvT snipers got him again, it's 3 seasons in a row now I haven't been following him too much but is Jjakji really considered a TvT sniper? Also GG Solar! Always somewhat underrated IMO. No, jjakji hasn't knocked out any top-tier Terrans until now with Maru. Gumiho, aLive, and Ryung are the big TvT snipers. Solar's ZvT is pretty creative but usually not the best. Hydra/Ling/Bane beats up Terran just as well as it beats up Protoss though. There isn't really any good Terran counter atm. Bio-Tank and 4M are both suboptimal. Even guys like Maru or INnoVation are losing to it. For whatever reason (the usual Korean inertia) Hydra/Ling/Bane hasn't really caught on with KR Zergs just yet; Solar and Leenock are the only two that I've seen use the build extensively. Whether the build is actually OP can't really be determined until we have a larger sample size, but at the very least Hydra/Ling/Bane is a very strong ZvT build (and of course a very strong ZvP build). That much cross-MU strength raises a few red flags already, so it's definitely something to keep an eye on. Time will tell. Why would ByuL go hydra when he has the best muta control in the world? I also asked myself this question after SSL on Monday. I don't think hydra/ling/bane's strength in ZvT is anywhere close to problematic. Why would anyone use any build? Because it wins games. Mutas would have been a way better choice on Overgrowth. At the very least better than the lurker transition. Lurkers against Terran seem shitty every time I've seen it. Ultras seem to be the better transition. But Hydra/Ling/Bane is a midgame build, not a lategame one. What comes after is a wholly different issue.
Solar beat Maru in the super late game both times, how does that count if it's a wholly different issue then?
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On July 19 2017 05:21 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 04:09 pvsnp wrote:On July 19 2017 02:44 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On July 19 2017 01:28 Fango wrote:
Maru played great TvZ, he'd probably have won vs any zerg apart from Solar or Dark.
Shame TvT snipers got him again, it's 3 seasons in a row now I haven't been following him too much but is Jjakji really considered a TvT sniper? Also GG Solar! Always somewhat underrated IMO. No, jjakji hasn't knocked out any top-tier Terrans until now with Maru. Gumiho, aLive, and Ryung are the big TvT snipers. Solar's ZvT is pretty creative but usually not the best. Hydra/Ling/Bane beats up Terran just as well as it beats up Protoss though. There isn't really any good Terran counter atm. Bio-Tank and 4M are both suboptimal. Even guys like Maru or INnoVation are losing to it. For whatever reason (the usual Korean inertia) Hydra/Ling/Bane hasn't really caught on with KR Zergs just yet; Solar and Leenock are the only two that I've seen use the build extensively. Whether the build is actually OP can't really be determined until we have a larger sample size, but at the very least Hydra/Ling/Bane is a very strong ZvT build (and of course a very strong ZvP build). That much cross-MU strength raises a few red flags already, so it's definitely something to keep an eye on. Time will tell. Why would ByuL go hydra when he has the best muta control in the world? Why would Dark use hydras (btw he was using hydra/ling/bane in December) when he has the best late game spell caster control in the world? soO goes hydras, but he just loses no matter what he does in ZvT. Rogue uses hydras, so Solar and Leenock aren't the only ones. This build was first played by Koreans way back in 2016 so I don't think there's any of this inertia that you're describing. That phenomena was the product of the team environment and the fact that Koreans did not have any room for experimentation in offline matches so they just practiced and played the consensus best style. That's not really a thing anymore and I think we've seen a lot less of its influence.
Regarding the inertia (since Elentos/me addressed the 'why' portion), isn't that exactly what forced all the Korean Terrans to push/drop into Adept/Phoenix? TY showed us that poking and turtling to lategame was the better answer but nearly everyone else just kept attacking and losing.
That was only a few months ago, well after the teamhouses closed. If inertia was not the cause, what was?
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On July 19 2017 06:02 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 05:50 pvsnp wrote:On July 19 2017 05:46 Elentos wrote:On July 19 2017 05:43 pvsnp wrote:On July 19 2017 05:41 Elentos wrote:On July 19 2017 05:21 mizenhauer wrote:On July 19 2017 04:09 pvsnp wrote:On July 19 2017 02:44 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On July 19 2017 01:28 Fango wrote:
Maru played great TvZ, he'd probably have won vs any zerg apart from Solar or Dark.
Shame TvT snipers got him again, it's 3 seasons in a row now I haven't been following him too much but is Jjakji really considered a TvT sniper? Also GG Solar! Always somewhat underrated IMO. No, jjakji hasn't knocked out any top-tier Terrans until now with Maru. Gumiho, aLive, and Ryung are the big TvT snipers. Solar's ZvT is pretty creative but usually not the best. Hydra/Ling/Bane beats up Terran just as well as it beats up Protoss though. There isn't really any good Terran counter atm. Bio-Tank and 4M are both suboptimal. Even guys like Maru or INnoVation are losing to it. For whatever reason (the usual Korean inertia) Hydra/Ling/Bane hasn't really caught on with KR Zergs just yet; Solar and Leenock are the only two that I've seen use the build extensively. Whether the build is actually OP can't really be determined until we have a larger sample size, but at the very least Hydra/Ling/Bane is a very strong ZvT build (and of course a very strong ZvP build). That much cross-MU strength raises a few red flags already, so it's definitely something to keep an eye on. Time will tell. Why would ByuL go hydra when he has the best muta control in the world? I also asked myself this question after SSL on Monday. I don't think hydra/ling/bane's strength in ZvT is anywhere close to problematic. Why would anyone use any build? Because it wins games. Mutas would have been a way better choice on Overgrowth. At the very least better than the lurker transition. Lurkers against Terran seem shitty every time I've seen it. Ultras seem to be the better transition. But Hydra/Ling/Bane is a midgame build, not a lategame one. What comes after is a wholly different issue. Solar beat Maru in the super late game both times, how does that count if it's a wholly different issue then?
I will preface this by noting that these are merely my own observations, and I don't claim to be an expert analyst by any means.
That being said, there are two wholly different issues:
1. Hydra/Ling/Bane outright wins in the midgame.
2. Hydra/Ling/Bane prevents the Terran from winning in the midgame and Zerg successfully techs to lategame.
The two are entirely distinct because the first is midgame TvZ while the second is lategame TvZ. Prevailing wisdom says that Terran is favored in the midgame but Zerg is favored in the lategame. Therefore, a standard TvZ will feature the Terran trying to kill the Zerg in the midgame while the Zerg tries to survive until lategame. In the case of Solar vs Maru, Hydra/Ling/Bane factors in as (2), a new strategy which better allows Zergs to survive until lategame and thus gain an advantage.
1.a. Zerg overwhelms Bio-Tank with a shitload of banelings. This is what Solar and Scarlett did to Inno, and it works by exploiting the weaknesses of Tanks against Ling/Bane.
2.a. Zerg shuts down 4M by denying drops and blunting parade pushes. This is basically LBM except that Zerg trades the harass ability of mutas for superior defense of hydras. From what I've seen the trade is a good one and Hydra/Ling/Bane basically comes off as a stronger version of LBM.
Again, these are only my personal observations from a handful of TvZ games that I've seen. Hydra/Ling/Bane doesn't win every ZvT and a sufficiently skilled Terran can defeat it with either Bio-Tank or 4M, but insofar as I can tell, Hydra/Ling/Bane appears significantly more successful than either LBM or Roach-Ravager. I suspect this is due to the fact that Terran counters LBM with 4M and Roach-Ravager with Bio-Tank, both of whose weaknesses against Hydra/Ling/Bane have been mentioned above.
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On July 19 2017 06:17 pvsnp wrote:
In the case of Solar vs Maru, Hydra/Ling/Bane factors in as a new strategy which better allows Zergs to survive until lategame and thus gain an advantage.
1.a. Zerg overwhelms Bio-Tank with a crapload of banelings. This is what Solar and Scarlett did to Inno, and it works by exploiting the weaknesses of Tanks against Ling/Bane.
Maru and Solar's bio vs ling/bane/hydra was played on Frost cross, Zerg should always be able to get to the late game on those spawns. With any composition.
The reason Scarlett managed to overwhelm Inno so easily was the fact that it was 51 banelings against 4 tanks because Inno took too long to realize it was a hydra style (even wasting all of his widow mines in a double drop that was killed for free). Generally, good sim city & target firing the banes with tanks as well as the situation allows you goes a long way in those engagements.
On July 19 2017 06:04 pvsnp wrote:
Regarding the inertia (since Elentos/me addressed the 'why' portion), isn't that exactly what forced all the Korean Terrans to push/drop into Adept/Phoenix? TY showed us that poking and turtling to lategame was the better answer but nearly everyone else just kept attacking and losing.
That was only a few months ago, well after the teamhouses closed. If inertia was not the cause, what was?
No, I wouldn't necessarily say that. Turtling to late game is certainly an answer against phoenix/adept, but it forces the Terran to play late game TvP. Very few Terrans are actually comfortable playing late game (in any match-up honestly), and arguably nobody to the same extent as TY.
And it's not like the pushing approach didn't work. There was a fair amount of games where the Protoss slipped up (missed a drop, misjudged a fight and took a poor trade, got their 3rd base killed) and fell apart afterwards.
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On July 19 2017 06:46 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 06:17 pvsnp wrote:
In the case of Solar vs Maru, Hydra/Ling/Bane factors in as a new strategy which better allows Zergs to survive until lategame and thus gain an advantage.
1.a. Zerg overwhelms Bio-Tank with a crapload of banelings. This is what Solar and Scarlett did to Inno, and it works by exploiting the weaknesses of Tanks against Ling/Bane.
Maru and Solar's bio vs ling/bane/hydra was played on Frost cross, Zerg should always be able to get to the late game on those spawns. With any composition. The reason Scarlett managed to overwhelm Inno so easily was the fact that it was 51 banelings against 4 tanks because Inno took too long to realize it was a hydra style (even wasting all of his widow mines in a double drop that was killed for free). Generally, good sim city & target firing the banes with tanks as well as the situation allows you goes a long way in those engagements. Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 06:04 pvsnp wrote:
Regarding the inertia (since Elentos/me addressed the 'why' portion), isn't that exactly what forced all the Korean Terrans to push/drop into Adept/Phoenix? TY showed us that poking and turtling to lategame was the better answer but nearly everyone else just kept attacking and losing.
That was only a few months ago, well after the teamhouses closed. If inertia was not the cause, what was? No, I wouldn't necessarily say that. Turtling to late game is certainly an answer against phoenix/adept, but it forces the Terran to play late game TvP. Very few Terrans are actually comfortable playing late game (in any match-up honestly), and arguably nobody to the same extent as TY. And it's not like the pushing approach didn't work. There was a fair amount of games where the Protoss slipped up (missed a drop, misjudged a fight and took a poor trade, got their 3rd base killed) and fell apart afterwards.
Maps certainly factor into the matchup but I would hesitate to give them a "guaranteed lategame" level of influence. Easier to get to lategame, sure.
I mean sure, Inno made some big mistakes in that game. That's not the point. The point is that Bio-Tank isn't the optimal counter for Ling/Bane, while Bio-Mine is. For a textbook example, refer to Inno vs Scarlett Game 2. And the point of that point is that Bio-Tank is suboptimal against Hydra/Ling/Bane.
I would almost say that's even worse than inertia. If the reason was TvP lategame, Terrans have a harder lategame (MMM Ghost/Liberator/Viking) than both Protoss and Zerg. Super-lategame Raven/BC beats everything ofc but it's practically impossible to get there. So with Adept/Phoenix and Hydra/Ling/Bane it's attack and lose in the midgame or don't and lose in the lategame. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
And of course Adept/Phoenix didn't win every game. It only won enough to be imbalanced (or at least appear to be imbalanced), and be subsequently nerfed. If the "answer" to Hydra/Ling/Bane does turn out to be "turtle to lategame" because midgame TvZ isn't viable, then that would definitely be sufficient grounds for the balance team to step in.
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maru vs solar was the best series ive ever seen in lotv. maru used marines, marauders, medivacs, mines, ghosts, liberators, vikings, tanks, hellions, hellbats, banshees, thors, ravens. solar used lings, banes, hydras, queens, swarm hosts, ultras, infestors, vipers, broods, corruptors. there was burrow, drops, speed banshees, biomech turret pushes. small groups of units all over the map, insanely complex armies being controlled very well. some of the best sc2 i've ever seen
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Totally agree. Must see series, especially game one.
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That sounds epic. Crushing to hear that it wasn't enough for him to move on.
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What happened to Maru? He looks really out of shape compared to 2015/2016
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United States1960 Posts
On July 20 2017 00:04 rrrzzz wrote:
What happened to Maru? He looks really out of shape compared to 2015/2016
You mean 2013-2015?
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On July 20 2017 00:04 rrrzzz wrote:
What happened to Maru? He looks really out of shape compared to 2015/2016
I think part of it is that viable Terran styles have changed over the years but Maru's style hasnt. It's especially notable in his tvp he keeps trying to constantly medivac droing his opponents but with the current protoss styles there just arnt many holes to exploit in the midgame stoping phase. Often I see him just lose all the units and kill like 100-150 minerals worth of stuff in return. It hurts man I love maru's drop heavy style but drop heavy styles don't work well in tvp since phonix adept became dominant in the meta, they don't work well in tvz since the queen range buff and they don't work well in tvt outside of doom drops. Terran is much more focused around big front on pushes or small harass to pick at the edges than it used to be.
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On July 20 2017 00:25 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2017 00:04 rrrzzz wrote:
What happened to Maru? He looks really out of shape compared to 2015/2016 I think part of it is that viable Terran styles have changed over the years but Maru's style hasnt. It's especially notable in his tvp he keeps trying to constantly medivac droing his opponents but with the current protoss styles there just arnt many holes to exploit in the midgame stoping phase. Often I see him just lose all the units and kill like 100-150 minerals worth of stuff in return. It hurts man I love maru's drop heavy style but drop heavy styles don't work well in tvp since phonix adept became dominant in the meta, they don't work well in tvz since the queen range buff and they don't work well in tvt outside of doom drops. Terran is much more focused around big front on pushes or small harass to pick at the edges than it used to be.
good point. I remember vividly 2015 maru vs myunsik where he made no single viking to beat a phoenix colossus combo and myunsik cried after losing the game
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United States1960 Posts
On July 20 2017 00:25 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2017 00:04 rrrzzz wrote:
What happened to Maru? He looks really out of shape compared to 2015/2016 I think part of it is that viable Terran styles have changed over the years but Maru's style hasnt. It's especially notable in his tvp he keeps trying to constantly medivac droing his opponents but with the current protoss styles there just arnt many holes to exploit in the midgame stoping phase. Often I see him just lose all the units and kill like 100-150 minerals worth of stuff in return. It hurts man I love maru's drop heavy style but drop heavy styles don't work well in tvp since phonix adept became dominant in the meta, they don't work well in tvz since the queen range buff and they don't work well in tvt outside of doom drops. Terran is much more focused around big front on pushes or small harass to pick at the edges than it used to be.
LotV killed Maru's TvP. He will never return to the level he was at in HotS. At least in that particular matchup.
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TvP these days definitely seems to smile upon Terran doing big timings and straight pushes instead of lots of drops like Maru likes to. Also probably why INnoVation is doing so well compared to historically. Though TY plays fairly drop-heavy as well and seems to manage just fine, but that might be more due to his lategame TvP control being second to none.
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EPT
