EPTI don't see the point in solely buffing colossus when the disruptor sees as little or less play as it in PvT and PvZ, but whatever.
Community Feedback Update - July 12 - Page 4
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Suchbalancemuchwow
76 Posts
I don't see the point in solely buffing colossus when the disruptor sees as little or less play as it in PvT and PvZ, but whatever. | ||
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Myrddrael
United Kingdom291 Posts
On July 13 2017 15:04 avilo wrote: The balance team seems really anti-Terran biased because of a few select Korean Terrans that basically play way past what the race is supposed to do via outstanding micro. SO the race is nerfed for the entire player population seems really wrong to me. Agree with this. Sadly, there's no way around it at this point. This stems from the design from the very start of the game. If they give major buffs to Terran, the Korean Terrans would dominate everything | ||
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Creager
Germany1889 Posts
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1652 Posts
Agree with raven nerf. Totally disagree with the "destruction of reaper". What the hell Blizz?!?!?! | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On July 13 2017 20:32 Creager wrote: Make Reapers require tech lab again. Crucial scouting information like proxy or 1-base pushes is obtained via SCV, anyway. And for later tech scouting the timing isn't screwed, as well. This would just put an end to the current TvT bullshit. What role does the Reaper even have at that point? I already dislike how much it is a 'scout early game' only unit. No other unit I know of is that heavily restricted to an early game role. The new grenade is gimmicky and can be removed without affecting the scouting role, so that's fine, but why not give the Reaper a late game upgrade? One that gives back the WoL building grenades and +Light damage? Maybe 200/200 at an Armory? The Reaper is the only other unit that is 1 supply in the Terran arsenal and it's a bit sad that you can't really make use of that because the unit is so restricted to the early game. I remember using small Reaper death squads in late WoL to snipe pylons, tech buildings and harass mineral lines. And you only need a little bit of supply for it. | ||
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egrimm
Poland1199 Posts
Just remove the f-ing knock back effect finally. It is what makes reaper strong in large numbers as it invalidates well-made surrounds + knock back units looks utterly stupid. Terran Mech Waiting seems resonable, please do. Raven inceasing supply seems resonable, please do. Colossus Not really sure if Colo needs any more changes with dmg output but it doesn't seem as bas of an idea to slightly specialise the unit against light targets. Just do not overbuff Colo please. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
For the reaper there is also the option to make it an energy unit and put both heal (autocast) and nades on energy. That way you could even add a mid/lategame energy ability to reapers. I imagine something similar as the medivac boost, to make them faster, which costs alot of energy and is a 50/50 upgrade at tech lab which becomes available after owning an armory. But really dont nail me down on that, it is just a random idea. Long term I would as well think about changing the medivac boost to an energy ability with cooldown in order put some risk/reward with boosting and chasing boosted medivacs. But I dont think that it is the right time right now to talk about such things. Hower it might be reasonable at a later point of SC2 balance development. In line with this you could think about a mutalisk ability, that lets them regenerate faster for lets say 15 seconds, but in return reduces movement speed significantly for that period of time, while their usual regeneration gets reduced massively. Or even require them to land and become a ground unit for that period of time. That would be hell interesting. If you manage to nerf mutalisks in a way that keeps them viable, deriving problems like mass phoenix into carrier could be addressed easier. The muta vs phoenix interaction and its surroundings are bad still. There is hardly anything else to counter mutalisks than phoenix, but if you got these phoenixes out mutas simply cant do anything anymore. The cure to this is a mutalisk nerf followed by a phoenix nerf. At the same time that would help e. g. mutalisk vs. protoss gateway anti air a bit more. However all this required terran bio to be less dominant in the matchups. Even the fuck out of this game. We dont need interactions like mass muta inc., protoss got no chance without phoenix, zerg got no chance when phoenix already in place, etc. This is like rolling dices a bit or if you assume high information level of players, than it just narrows down viable options to a point, where it becomes boring. Also: Check teamgames please (3v3, 4v4). The situation is intolerable with protoss massive air, which again supports the plan to find a better solution for the fenix vs. mutalisk issue, as fenix are too good of a transition into carriers. Carriers themselves seem to be in a pretty good spot balance wise. Just they come too early. | ||
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JoFar
31 Posts
On July 13 2017 18:54 bulya wrote: There was no Zerg winning a major tournament since the 3.8 balance change, and for some reason people claim its the strongest race. Protoss won major tournaments (GSL, Austin, Jönköping). Terran won major tournaments (IEM 1, IEM 2, GSL, we can count the SSL1 here as well), and all these were won by different Terrans with different play styles. Zerg won... hmmm... Nothing! Yeah, some second places, but even in the foreign scene where the zerg is a way more popular race nothing major has been won by a zerg player. (We'll see about Valencia) Only counting major tournament wins doesn't say anything! As you said, there have been a lot of second places ... especially if you look at soO, who simply can't win any tournament. But that's a personal weakness and has nothing to do with a week race! Same goes for protoss ... they are only doing reasonable well because of Neeb, who is just (at least in his recent shape) the best foreigner. And Serral had achieved his first final in Jönköping, was nervous and did some mistakes he usually wouldn't make ... and barely lost 3-4. So he had surely won if he would have managed to play his A Game. And watching at WCS Standings, you have 7 Zergs, 6 Terrans und 3 Protoss in Top 16 (Top 8 Circuit and Top 8 Korea combined), so any whining about zerg being to weak just isn't more than that - whining without any reason. And winrates, f.e. from aligulac, also are far from showing that zerg would be too weak. Although i wouldn't say that zerg is overpowered or something like that ... a lot of the Zerg strength came to the last seasons mappool, which was a lot zerg favored overall. So we have to see how that will work out with the new map pool. The changes seem fine overall ... especially nerfing reapers a bit. Not su sure if the other changes are really necessary, colossi change seems to be more a nerf then a buff, and it was already stated, they aren't used to heavily ... so not sure, if such a change will have any effect. | ||
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Asturas
Finland587 Posts
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On July 13 2017 21:23 JoFar wrote: Only counting major tournament wins doesn't say anything! As you said, there have been a lot of second places ... especially if you look at soO, who simply can't win any tournament. But that's a personal weakness and has nothing to do with a week race! Same goes for protoss ... they are only doing reasonable well because of Neeb, who is just (at least in his recent shape) the best foreigner. And Serral had achieved his first final in Jönköping, was nervous and did some mistakes he usually wouldn't make ... and barely lost 3-4. So he had surely won if he would have managed to play his A Game. And watching at WCS Standings, you have 7 Zergs, 6 Terrans und 3 Protoss in Top 16 (Top 8 Circuit and Top 8 Korea combined), so any whining about zerg being to weak just isn't more than that - whining without any reason. And winrates, f.e. from aligulac, also are far from showing that zerg would be too weak. Although i wouldn't say that zerg is overpowered or something like that ... a lot of the Zerg strength came to the last seasons mappool, which was a lot zerg favored overall. So we have to see how that will work out with the Sounds more that you refuse to admit Zerg is doing poorly because you don't want to see them buffed rather than actual arguments. When a race is not winning for the longest period of the whole history of the three SC2, when the TvZ winrates on the tournaments are something like 74% for T. Let be honest if it was 0% win for the last 14 tournaments for T there would be 5 whine post a day. But here you're explaining us "you won't say Zerg OP, but not weak". The number of Zerg players not winning isn't a argument, nor the "aligulac winrates". Actual i have no idea how there are made, but look they show a tendancy of Zerg being favored, while facts don't show that. The obvious reaction is to trust facts rather than stats, and thing the winrate of zerg is probably inflated by the high number of Zerg foreigner beating low level Terran. If you look aligulac, Serral is like top 3 world and best zerg of the world, we all know it's false, so his ranking is overestimated because he play easier opponents than the other zergs. So please stop being biased and think like it's your race with these results, would you consider everything is perfect ? I don't think so | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
Terran bio is highly dependent on doing early game damage, with queen range buff Terran was unable to do that damage with the 16 marine drop so instead bio Terran adapted and started using reapers for the same kind of effect, if you nerf all of terrans early game options and cuntinue to realease maps like those in the current pool you will slowly strangulate terrans ability to play bio and force more Terran into mech. Do we realy want mostly mech games? I get early game damage is " frustrating" to play against as Zerg but generally that's how Terran wins games. By putting on pressure and trading well, when you nerf to many ways Of applying pressure Terran is forced to either turtle or all in creating a very unfun meta. I do think the collosi buff is in order though Protoss need an easier way to deal with hydra bane, without better tools to secure bases against this composition you will cubtinue to see Protoss suffer on any map wher the third and fourth are not adgacent to one another or the area around the third is to big allowing for easy concaves. Since it's only + to light I think an even bigger number change would be justified to be honest. I do wonder what affect this change has in the pvt matchup though. Collosi stalker is currently less popular than adept phonix but a slight buff vs marines could be prity big. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
I would head for a less impactful economy harassment and at the same put more value on the single worker. The interaction of harassing workers and rebuilding workers feels wrong. It is just to easy to replace killed workers and as well too easy to kill workers. It makes the game random on high level, which is probably a reason why pros prefer broodwar. Just a thought though, which however could do the trick. I would go and try with about 10-15% increased building time for workers and see if that can be anything useful for what the game wants to achieve. Stop arguing for your race to be, become or stay op in this thread please. @ Blizzard: You have to understand balance as one part of the game design, not the whole however. This is still lacking. Balance is a necessary requirement when designing the game. The primary goal should however be to create a fun and strategically diverse and demanding game. Balance comes second and can at anytime be adjusted by manipulating numbers. However if you focus on balance only, the real primary objectives get neglected by default, which is what SC2 is suffering from. | ||
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
On July 13 2017 21:53 washikie wrote: Terran bio is highly dependent on doing early game damage, with queen range buff Terran was unable to do that damage with the 16 marine drop so instead bio Terran adapted and started using reapers for the same kind of effect, if you nerf all of terrans early game options and cuntinue to realease maps like those in the current pool you will slowly strangulate terrans ability to play bio and force more Terran into mech. Do we realy want mostly mech games? I get early game damage is " frustrating" to play against as Zerg but generally that's how Terran wins games. By putting on pressure and trading well, when you nerf to many ways Of applying pressure Terran is forced to either turtle or all in creating a very unfun meta. I'd like to introduce you to a player called Innovation. | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1652 Posts
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JoFar
31 Posts
On July 13 2017 21:48 Tyrhanius wrote:Sounds more that you refuse to admit Zerg is doing poorly because you don't want to see them buffed rather than actual arguments. So please stop being biased and think like it's your race with these results, would you consider everything is perfect ? I don't think so Sorry, but you are the one (although not the only one) who is being biased about that. You don't want to see the arguments. If it is winrates, if it is WCS standings (as i mentioned before) ... none of that is showing Zerg being weak. It's more like the opposit ... 7 out of the 16 best players right now ARE Zerg. So how can anybody say they are doing poorly? And this is the highest level of Starcraft. And you can also look at the Top 32 or Top 40 (circuit and korea combined, as said before) ... the result wouldn't be a lot different. The only argument is (they haven't won a major tournament) - which is true, i don't refuse to admit that ... but winning a final much more comes to the player then to any possible balance problem. As i mentioned before ... just for example ... Serral was extremely nervous in his first big final, and soO ... well, i think there was already everything said. 8 (or 9 with VSL? don't know exactly) times in the final ... everytime lost. That's extremely sad, for sure ... but it also shows thats more about the player. Too nervours, flattering ... call it what you want ... Zerg could probably have a 90 Percent winrate, and soO could have won 99 out of 100 games, he probably would lose a final anyways ... and it doesn't matter anything, if he is playing against T, P or another Z. And that's the point YOU (and others) refuse to admit. Winning a major tournament has not a lot to with balance. If no zerg player had achieved to get in at least semi finals in all this tournaments ... okay, then it would be an argument. But in fact there was e zerg player in nearly EVERY of this finals ... how should they have managed that, if their race would be soo weak as you think? There are so much FACTS which show zergs aren't weak ... look at Jönköping for example, in the round of 16 there have been 10 zerg players. Will you say they have been there because all good protoss and terran players haven't played there? I don't think so ... So yeah ... winning major tournaments isn't really a valid standalone argument, especially not if all other existing facts are being ignored. Its just being biased. | ||
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KOtical
Germany451 Posts
just focus on sc3 multiplayer with a campaign following later. | ||
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Xamo
Spain877 Posts
Terran Mech is ok for now, just give Korean Zergs more time to adapt. Ok to increasing the Raven supply, it is the right move. The Colossus shouldn't be touched at all. It is in the right spot in PvT and PvP. Ling-bane-hydra is OP in ZvP, but the proposed Colossus change would not make any difference. The problem is that both banes and hydras are too tanky since the recent buffs. Specially banes: they are too hard to kill, seeing them trade well vs archons is ridiculous. But I assume nothing is going to change in that regard because you never revert a change, no matter how bad it proves to be. So my proposal would be to remove the Light tag from adepts, so that they do not melt vs banes, and Protoss is able to apply counter-pressure more easily. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
The kind of shit that Byun constantly does on Stream doesn't seem like its fair at all, you shouldn't be able to wipe out entire swarms of Zerglings with those Grenades even if you do have the micro of a god. Buffing Collosus might be the answer Protoss needs in the vs Zerg match up, but I'm always afraid of what that might mean in the vs Terran match up since Marines are such an important unit for that matchup. Worth testing. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16647 Posts
On July 13 2017 19:10 hiroshOne wrote: Reaper nerf is necessary because of reasons mentioned by balance team. It's not about dmg that reapers do straight but hidden damage. Mass reapers openings force Zerg to spend tones of larva on speedlings or sacrificing eco for tech via going fast Roaches/Ravagers to defend. In the same time Terran transitions easily and happily in whatever he wants. So in the end even if mass reapers don't kill Zerg, the follow up does it or Zerg is so behind that dies in later stage of the game. you nailed it with this analysis. On July 13 2017 21:17 egrimm wrote: Reaper Just remove the f-ing knock back effect finally. It is what makes reaper strong in large numbers as it invalidates well-made surrounds + knock back units looks utterly stupid. yes , i agree. On July 13 2017 22:33 StarscreamG1 wrote: The reaper approach is wrong. What about starting with the remotion of bounce back from the grenades? i think you mean "removing bounce back". i don't get why they do not consider removing bounce back. its a weird gimmicky spell effect on an early game unit. is this Red Alert 3 we're playing here ? or is it Starcraft? Blizz does need to test some kind of Reaper nerf though. | ||
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Ryu3600
Canada469 Posts
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