EPTAvilo will be really mad, this should be fun. 7 years of massing siege tanks and ravens comming to an end?
Community Feedback Update - July 12 - Page 2
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
Avilo will be really mad, this should be fun. 7 years of massing siege tanks and ravens comming to an end? | ||
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Alienship
China27 Posts
On July 13 2017 08:13 pvsnp wrote: Most of this looks reasonable. But Colossus changes are sketchy. Banelings aren't Light and Marines already melt to Colossi. 10 (+5 Light) seems to push them down the wrong path. Interesting, I always thought Banelings are of light armor type before I see your post and check Liquipedia for confirmation. I'm not sure whether 12+3 (vs. Light) is a bit too much for a buff. If it turns out to be OP during the test, I suggest keeping the attack buff, while removing the 10% attack speed buff which was patched sometime ago. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8245 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Ravens are infrequently seen - they're not fine let's nerf hammer them. Reapers are an issue in openers because of being too strong snowballing. But Ravagers are OK in openers despite the same exact issue. Do people not see issue with this? I mean i agree and even proposed the supply nerf to ravens/air units in the past, but only under the assumption Blizzard will also fix carriers and swarmhosts, the other "free unit producers" of Zerg and Protoss. Nov 2016 is how long Swarmhosts have been messed up in LOTV. But let's nerf mech and ravens more while leaving swarmhosts the same. ....i'd really like to read more people's thoughts on this because to me...it seems really biased as fuck and just plain not well thought out from the devs. Nerfs to reapers and ravens are understandable but not without corresponding nerfs to insane things like swarmhosts and carriers as well. There is a ton of bias in this Community Update - and it's all against Terran which i think is not right. | ||
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ThunderBum
Australia192 Posts
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Snakestyle1
43 Posts
Colossus change could also be good, as ZvP is nothing but ling bane hydras. I would like other options to be viable. Maybe if colossus play becomes more popular, maybe we will see some more muta play again, maybe even ultralisks. The threat of mutalisks/broodlords should discourage protoss from massing just immortals/colossus and zealots. so it shouldnt be too much of an issue i hope. The raven nerf, while welcomed as a zerg, makes me a bit worried for late game tvz. If zerg gets their ideal comp of ultralisks/ling/bane/infestors/corruptors/broods, it seems the only answer from terran is ghosts+ ravens. This would be a direct nerf to the supreme late game of terran versus zerg. On the other hand, it will make tvt a bit better, as ravens are just way too good in the mirror matchup. Overall, ill say this seems like a pretty good patch for the game. | ||
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reneg
United States859 Posts
On July 13 2017 11:58 Snakestyle1 wrote: Wow that reaper nerf...Its about time. This has to be the most infuriating strategy to play against, as a zerg. I am very happy with this decision. Colossus change could also be good, as ZvP is nothing but ling bane hydras. I would like other options to be viable. Maybe if colossus play becomes more popular, maybe we will see some more muta play again, maybe even ultralisks. The threat of mutalisks/broodlords should discourage protoss from massing just immortals/colossus and zealots. so it shouldnt be too much of an issue i hope. The raven nerf, while welcomed as a zerg, makes me a bit worried for late game tvz. If zerg gets their ideal comp of ultralisks/ling/bane/infestors/corruptors/broods, it seems the only answer from terran is ghosts+ ravens. This would be a direct nerf to the supreme late game of terran versus zerg. On the other hand, it will make tvt a bit better, as ravens are just way too good in the mirror matchup. Overall, ill say this seems like a pretty good patch for the game. I agree. Pretty happy with how this one is turning out. Wasn't colossus +damage vs. light in WOL & HOTS? When did they end up taking that away? I felt like it used to SHRED marines & lings back in the day, but just fell off a cliff. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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franzji
United States583 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
I don't necessarily disagree with Avilo for once that along with a raven supply need could come a carrier nerf (mineral cost, also perhaps a slight build time increase) and swarmhost nerf. They explicitly stated ladder was their concern, and neither of those two units are any fun to play against either when massed. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17381 Posts
On July 13 2017 07:45 hiroshOne wrote: Reaper Recently, we’ve been receiving feedback regarding Reapers openings. We have some changes we’d like to test, but before we get to them we want to clarify what our intended role for the Reaper should be. Reapers should be good for scouting, and through tactical use of their KD8 charge be a viable but risky rush opener when made in large quantities. However, in the TvZ matchup we are seeing numerous Reapers being used as a general opener that has a bit too clean of a transition to normal play for Terrans. While this strategy requires a lot of skill to execute perfectly, we think that amassing larger numbers of Reapers is too safe for how much threat they pose. Currently, we are thinking of the following possible options:
We are planning to implement Reaper changes during the period between IEM Season XII – Shanghai and GSL vs. the World. i vote for weakening the Reapers KD8 charge AND adjusting Combat Drugs so that it does not work if the Reaper recently attacked a unit. In exchange for this nerf give the Reaper a bigger vision range to make it a better scout and spotter. On July 13 2017 08:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: About the update: Well at least we are talking about reapers finally, so good one  because of 2 expansions we've got a lot of units in each race. to give all these units there own unique role even "scouting" and "spotting" can be considered a role. so that in SC1 there were no specific "scouting units" and/or "spotting units". at that same time period games like RA2 and RA3 had specific units like Attack Dogs that excelled at scouting and spotting. i vote for making the Reaper a great scouting unit analogous to the Attack Dog of RA2 and RA3. weaken or remove the Reaper's gimmicky spell casting abilities. Enhance the Reapers abilities to make it an effective scout and even a very effective spotter unit. For example, Just keep increasing its vision range until pros start using it as a spotter. sounds like a crazy idea but i'm just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. On July 13 2017 07:45 hiroshOne wrote: Raven Mass Raven strategies have shown up infrequently in high level play. However, we believe the playstyle of mass Raven could be problematic for ladder level play. We are currently thinking of increasing its supply count from 2 to 3, which would bring it in line with other tech air units like the Banshee and Viper. This should have limited impact at professional levels of play and when using smaller counts of Ravens, while making mass Raven style easier to counter. please make this change. the less gimmicky flying spellcasters the better. If Terran ends up too weak as a result of nerfing the Raven and/or Reaper please buff a ground unit of some kind. anything really.. i don't care.. just make it a ground unit that receives the buff. | ||
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Gen.Rolly
United States200 Posts
On July 13 2017 08:41 brickrd wrote: i actually do like the colossus and i don't mind it being brought back into more viability, but i worry about pvz. right now hydra bane vs immortal archon is in a weird place, because the balance is good but there are a lot of ways an engagement can quickly get messy and snowball for either side depending on when the high HP units start dying. if colossus becomes a stable long-range damage output that allows protoss to better control the shape of pvz engagements we could see protoss ground armies dominating in macro games, which could lead to a meta where zerg relies more heavily on gimmicky plays like ling/bane drop allins, swarm hosts, surprise mutas, etc., which leads back to where pvz was for a long time during heart of the swarm i'm not suggesting that hydra/bane isn't really strong right now (it is), but it's also really popular because it's tough to go into the lategame against protoss without hitting a specific timing like broodlords before tempests. with proxy double robo immortal suddenly looking really strong against terran, maybe the colossus buff could be mixed with a slight immortal nerf? people complained a lot about colossus in HOTS, but i think it's a better design than the immortal more random thoughts on the colossus - it might be cool if the attack fired slower and hit a wider area but did less DPS, so target fire and counter-splitting would matter more. or maybe a damage point delay? I like what you said about the colossus. It would be cool if there were an animation where the colossus was about to fire (kind of like mothership's time warp) where the opposing player would have a brief instant to split units/escape the area of barrage. | ||
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highsis
259 Posts
Does TvZ greatly favour T these days? Is it even due to reapers' strength? I've not seen many games where reapers deal massive damage early to zergs. | ||
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I wasbanned fromthis
113 Posts
Poll: Opinion of these proposed changes? Acceptable (44) Unacceptable (16) Typical (1) 61 total votes Your vote: Opinion of these proposed changes? Poll: Are you desires being met? Yes (25) No (21) none available (1) 47 total votes Your vote: Are you desires being met? Poll: Are map updates or patches acceptable around tournament play? Yes (26) No (6) Not our decision (4) 36 total votes Your vote: Are map updates or patches acceptable around tournament play? Poll: What... is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow? 24 (4) 32 (4) 27 (4) 12 total votes Your vote: What... is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow? Poll: Do you like polls? Yes (20) Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers. A peck of pickled peppers Peter Piper picked. (8) No (2) 30 total votes Your vote: Do you like polls? (Vote): Yes | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Like sure, it's understandable and agreed upon even by most Terran players that reapers have been imbalanced for a while because of the free ability aka reaper grenade. But how come Blizzard is so apt to nerf hammer any way Terran has to win games pre-10 min but does not make ravager's lair tech or more delayed in the game too? Ravager all-ins are just as bad as reaper all-ins and just as blind-counter / coin-flilppy. There kind of is an issue with the game when this is how the races strengths currently are: Zerg: STRONG EARLY, STRONG MID, STRONG LATE. Protoss: STRONG EARLY, WEAK MID, STRONG LATE Terran: WEAK EARLY, STRONG MID, WEAK LATE Zerg is literally not weak at any phase of the game, having way too many all-ins, way too many macro plays available, and almost infinite viable unit compositions. Protoss has strong all-ins, is very weak mid-game, and then gets cranked back up to 100 in the lategame with tier3/mass air. Terran is basically only strong mid-game with bio play and double medivac drop for a short period of time in a game, and then is objectively weaker than the other two races in the lategame, requiring about 5 different unit types to compete with a Z or P that is massing tier 3 units at that point. Is this not a balance issue? The removal of reaper bullshit really needs to happen, but at the same time, shouldn't Zerg early game with ravager all-ins and queens also be toned down equally? The balance team seems really anti-Terran biased because of a few select Korean Terrans that basically play way past what the race is supposed to do via outstanding micro. SO the race is nerfed for the entire player population seems really wrong to me. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
What you should look into is adept. With the recent nerf unit became a piece of trash. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17381 Posts
On July 13 2017 15:04 avilo wrote: The balance team seems really anti-Terran biased because of a few select Korean Terrans that basically play way past what the race is supposed to do via outstanding micro. SO the race is nerfed for the entire player population seems really wrong to me. they have to balance the game at the top level. if this means when i play T my rank is lower than when i play Z or P .. who cares. i'm just playing for fun. if you're not at the top level you're going to have to accept that SC2 will not be perfectly balanced for you. Just like any other diverse race RTS game. SC1 isn't balanced below the top level either. Nor is WC3. I accepted this fact a long time ago. I don't let imbalance interfere with my fun experience. Force discusses my perspective on the meta.. and i think it applies to SC2 and Overwatch i've been playing Soldier76 since hte beginning of the game even when he was super weak. it doesn't matter what the colour of my badge is. my goal in both Sc2 and OW is to have fun. I have more fun playing Terran even though my rank is higher with Zerg. My rank was really low with a super weak S76. it had zero impact on the fun-level of my experience. my rank skyrocketed when they buffed S76. the game didn't become more "fun". it was the same fun level. the game did become more ruthless. | ||
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effecto
France142 Posts
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Just feels wrong that this unit is not meant to be made at all past the first few minutes of a game. | ||
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Mahanaim
Korea (South)1002 Posts
(Edit: on second thought, maybe I just need to test it out myself and see how it works. Now that I thought about it for a while, it doesn't look quite problematic as it looked first. The colossus might be "cooler," so to say, with a more distinct identity and might provide more interesting unit interactions) Reapers: the health regeneration change seems to be the best decision. Just like the bomb's cooldown nerf, it won't be a killing blow to heavy reaper plays but considerably weaken its "speed." Mech: yes, let's wait on how things develop a little more. Raven: I do see the reasoning behind this thinking, though I fear that everything is costing too much supply nowadays. Overall, I'm quite liking reasoning behind these proposals. Thanks for the update. | ||
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