On February 16 2017 09:54 Seeker wrote: So... What are the chances of 5 terrans in the Ro8? Oo;;
Very good chance really. I expect Maru to come out first. He is always saying that he doesn't like TvT (probably only Ryung does :D)... but then he rekted GuMiHo which is quite good at TvT big-time.
Not sure about sOs though. His form is kind of meh but then he has only one matchup to prepare so he may end up doing well. Who knows? Also, he has Maru to practice with so he may get out. Frankly, I prefer Maru and Bunny to advance.
On February 16 2017 09:54 Seeker wrote: So... What are the chances of 5 terrans in the Ro8? Oo;;
Very good chance really. I expect Maru to come out first. He is always saying that he doesn't like TvT (probably only Ryung does :D)... but then he rekted GuMiHo which is quite good at TvT big-time.
Not sure about sOs though. His form is kind of meh but then he has only one matchup to prepare so he may end up doing well. Who knows? Also, he has Maru to practice with so he may get out. Frankly, I prefer Maru and Bunny to advance.
I know his form hasn't been the best, but...this is Keen and Bunny we're talking about. Pretty much all the the top foreigners beat him somewhat regularly, and Bunny doesn't have the greatest track record vs Protoss in general. Yes he beat Zest (who hasn't really impressed me very much in the past couple of months), but he also loses quite often to other Korean Protoss.
sOs doesn't have a recent form vs Terran. I mean, he won 2-1 against Keen and lost 1-3 to Innovation during the IEM qualifiers, but his most recent result before then was in October. Like you said, he has Maru to practice with, and so I can't really imagine anyone else making it out except Maru and sOs.
Yeah Maru sOs was the easiest liquibet of the round of 16 for me by far. sOs is a god--he just needs good practice and he should be good to go. Getting out of the round of 8 is a different story though. I think herO will have a shot at sweet revenge and I think he'll get it.
On February 16 2017 13:20 zealotstim wrote: Yeah Maru sOs was the easiest liquibet of the round of 16 for me by far. sOs is a god--he just needs good practice and he should be good to go. Getting out of the round of 8 is a different story though. I think herO will have a shot at sweet revenge and I think he'll get it.
My thought is exactly opposite. If he gets out his group, then he is almost guaranteed in Ro.4
On February 16 2017 02:26 NonY wrote: G1 herO vs Ryung was bizarre to me. Photon overcharge is used to kill a reaper and then an adept dies to a widow mine early. Terran harass/pressure should be hard to defend now right? So herO's response is to take a 3rd and chrono out probes and phoenixes (??). And then goes forge/twilight. He does no scouting and builds no units except phoenixes and probes, and then goes for tech/upgrades before units. Casters weren't interested in the game at all so no opinion from them. Is this the fabled reverse cheese? Ryung is so scared that even when the situation seems good for pressure, he just very cautiously sends out 1 medivac with 1 mine, so herO is able to do the macro cheese (invest all into economy -> timing attack).
Some extreme mind game / risky play from herO I think. There are other terrans doing builds in those same circumstances that would show up at herO's front door and win with attack move.
ok so I love these types of discussions. Do you think it had anything to do with the fact that ryung ebay blocked his mineral line? being able to afford an ebay block that quick means terran is delaying his 2nd gas so herO knew he is going mineral based early on rather than a 2 base tech push. Obviously terran could have transitioned into a 2 base timing but perhaps it was less likely after this so he took the chance?
Nony, this is actually a pretty common build in the Korea scene, I think it was popularised by stats.
It's not as risky as you say it is (having played it a lot myself). Against standard factory builds the third should never be an issue, by the time they have a meaningful attack force you should have a large enough army to deal with it. You'd be surprised how good adept + glaive with phoenix are early on. Against extra rax builds you scout it at around the 4 minute mark with your oracle and you can simply cut probes and add a few gateways if you think it's going to be a problem. I think 3 gateway warpins with adepts and constant phoenix production is more than enough to hold.
On February 16 2017 16:54 SLCN_Pezz wrote: Nony, this is actually a pretty common build in the Korea scene, I think it was popularised by stats.
It's not as risky as you say it is (having played it a lot myself). Against standard factory builds the third should never be an issue, by the time they have a meaningful attack force you should have a large enough army to deal with it. You'd be surprised how good adept + glaive with phoenix are early on. Against extra rax builds you scout it at around the 4 minute mark with your oracle and you can simply cut probes and add a few gateways if you think it's going to be a problem. I think 3 gateway warpins with adepts and constant phoenix production is more than enough to hold.
This is the type of build Ryung could have been doing and outright killed herO. Starts at 1 hour 21 min. Not sure if my time-stamp worked.
On February 16 2017 13:20 zealotstim wrote: Yeah Maru sOs was the easiest liquibet of the round of 16 for me by far. sOs is a god--he just needs good practice and he should be good to go. Getting out of the round of 8 is a different story though. I think herO will have a shot at sweet revenge and I think he'll get it.
My thought is exactly opposite. If he gets out his group, then he is almost guaranteed in Ro.4
Do you mean his overall form will be high enough to beat herO based on getting out of the group? Or you believe he's just herO kryptonite? I love sOs btw if I didn't make that clear haha
On February 16 2017 13:20 zealotstim wrote: Yeah Maru sOs was the easiest liquibet of the round of 16 for me by far. sOs is a god--he just needs good practice and he should be good to go. Getting out of the round of 8 is a different story though. I think herO will have a shot at sweet revenge and I think he'll get it.
My thought is exactly opposite. If he gets out his group, then he is almost guaranteed in Ro.4
Do you mean his overall form will be high enough to beat herO based on getting out of the group? Or you believe he's just herO kryptonite? I love sOs btw if I didn't make that clear haha
If his opponent is herO, then sOs' current form is irrelevant This is what we have learned from history.
On February 16 2017 16:54 SLCN_Pezz wrote: Nony, this is actually a pretty common build in the Korea scene, I think it was popularised by stats.
It's not as risky as you say it is (having played it a lot myself). Against standard factory builds the third should never be an issue, by the time they have a meaningful attack force you should have a large enough army to deal with it. You'd be surprised how good adept + glaive with phoenix are early on. Against extra rax builds you scout it at around the 4 minute mark with your oracle and you can simply cut probes and add a few gateways if you think it's going to be a problem. I think 3 gateway warpins with adepts and constant phoenix production is more than enough to hold.
This is the type of build Ryung could have been doing and outright killed herO. Starts at 1 hour 21 min. Not sure if my time-stamp worked. https://youtu.be/1QLjJFLqAqA?t=1h20m56s
Well, a few things: Showtime missed the medivac with his oracle, allowing mine drop to do damage. Realistically this shouldn't happen, you should be skipping msc with this opener (like herO does) in favour of a faster stargate. The oracle arrives at 4minutes, when the medivac pops, you should be able to tag it and chase it down with phoenix.
I'm not sure taking 1 game is evidence of the build being punishable. So far it's obviously the metagame, looking at all the recent korean pvts. It's probably the 'bread and butter' or most staple build in PvT right now.
On February 16 2017 16:54 SLCN_Pezz wrote: Nony, this is actually a pretty common build in the Korea scene, I think it was popularised by stats.
It's not as risky as you say it is (having played it a lot myself). Against standard factory builds the third should never be an issue, by the time they have a meaningful attack force you should have a large enough army to deal with it. You'd be surprised how good adept + glaive with phoenix are early on. Against extra rax builds you scout it at around the 4 minute mark with your oracle and you can simply cut probes and add a few gateways if you think it's going to be a problem. I think 3 gateway warpins with adepts and constant phoenix production is more than enough to hold.
Well-said. Also, if T sees like 3 or 4 phoenixes, their instinct is to turn around. No one wants to lose like 2 medivacs full of marines so early. That is gonna kill the following push and Protoss eco is just going out of control.
On February 16 2017 13:20 zealotstim wrote: Yeah Maru sOs was the easiest liquibet of the round of 16 for me by far. sOs is a god--he just needs good practice and he should be good to go. Getting out of the round of 8 is a different story though. I think herO will have a shot at sweet revenge and I think he'll get it.
My thought is exactly opposite. If he gets out his group, then he is almost guaranteed in Ro.4
Do you mean his overall form will be high enough to beat herO based on getting out of the group? Or you believe he's just herO kryptonite? I love sOs btw if I didn't make that clear haha
If his opponent is herO, then sOs' current form is irrelevant This is what we have learned from history.
Yah, sOs and Classic are herO's nemesis. That's why I want sOs gets eliminated (Sorry I know you are sOs's fan) because I'm herO's fan. But I feel sOs may advance if he has a good day. He's not doing any online cup so it is hard to really know how well he is doing. Honestly, JAGW players are kind of meh lately. Rogue and Creator are bad these days. Cure and Trap are OK at best. Only Maru seems doing well.
On February 16 2017 16:54 SLCN_Pezz wrote: Nony, this is actually a pretty common build in the Korea scene, I think it was popularised by stats.
It's not as risky as you say it is (having played it a lot myself). Against standard factory builds the third should never be an issue, by the time they have a meaningful attack force you should have a large enough army to deal with it. You'd be surprised how good adept + glaive with phoenix are early on. Against extra rax builds you scout it at around the 4 minute mark with your oracle and you can simply cut probes and add a few gateways if you think it's going to be a problem. I think 3 gateway warpins with adepts and constant phoenix production is more than enough to hold.
Well-said. Also, if T sees like 3 or 4 phoenixes, their instinct is to turn around. No one wants to lose like 2 medivacs full of marines so early. That is gonna kill the following push and Protoss eco is just going out of control.
Some turn back. Others see through it and stim right on in.
On February 16 2017 13:20 zealotstim wrote: Yeah Maru sOs was the easiest liquibet of the round of 16 for me by far. sOs is a god--he just needs good practice and he should be good to go. Getting out of the round of 8 is a different story though. I think herO will have a shot at sweet revenge and I think he'll get it.
My thought is exactly opposite. If he gets out his group, then he is almost guaranteed in Ro.4
Do you mean his overall form will be high enough to beat herO based on getting out of the group? Or you believe he's just herO kryptonite? I love sOs btw if I didn't make that clear haha
If his opponent is herO, then sOs' current form is irrelevant This is what we have learned from history.
Yah, sOs and Classic are herO's nemesis. That's why I want sOs gets eliminated (Sorry I know you are sOs's fan) because I'm herO's fan. But I feel sOs may advance if he has a good day. He's not doing any online cup so it is hard to really know how well he is doing. Honestly, JAGW players are kind of meh lately. Rogue and Creator are bad these days. Cure and Trap are OK at best. Only Maru seems doing well.
Those players' form is changing all the time, especially sOs' offline form is unpredictable, maybe bunny has a chance, we'll see. But I won't be too surprised if sOs advanced first since winner's match is a team kill, that way we both satisfied (or maybe you still doesn't)
On February 16 2017 06:35 NonY wrote: you totally missed my point. i wasnt implying that literally everything i said was weird or bizarre. the weird thing is how herO goes minimal units max economy in the face of a lot of very dangerous possibilities. using photon overcharge to kill reaper is good and normal, but the fact remains that if you do that, then the next terran pressure (which usually does not involve the reaper) is going to have one less overcharge. so the point of me mentioning that exchange is to say that it increased the value of the next terran attack. same thing with the widow mine killing the adept. usually, that widow mine is not able to kill anything before it must be loaded up to do pressure. but he put it in the perfect spot to kill an adept. nothing that weird about it. but now herO is down a photon overcharge and down an adept, while Ryung's potential pressure/harass has not been slowed at all. how does herO respond to this? this is what i think is weird. he proceeds with a build that would absolutely die to a timing attack or even just pressure, and would probably sustain some losses to harass (though possibly not put him behind)
it being one-sided in the end wasn't surprising at all. once you saw how greedy herO played without getting punished for it at all, it would have been bizarre if he was unable to deny the terran his third and possibly end the game. the game was already over when herO chronos probes straight to full 3 base saturation and ryung doesn't punish it all
edit: about the phoenix: yeah they're a great part of a balanced defense. but going straight phoenix with nothing else is purely a long term plan. it's not the optimal way to prepare for the attacks that could be hitting immediately. so my point is that he was playing like absolutely no attack would be coming, and it didnt. but he didnt scout it. his investment order was nexus -> chrono probes -> phoenix -> tech/upgrade -> production buildings -> actual fighting units. when there were multiple terran timings that'd require actual fighting units that just came and went
I'm by no means at the level you are but from my stream watching I feel like it is meta related. I personally feel that Koreans are very decisive. They prefer scenarios where attack after stim at this time because toss does not have XYZ. A lot of the time that means as the defender you can take those risks if you know you wont get attacked for 2 mins.
When I watch NA streams it seems far more common for the terran to just walk across the map with their first couple of units and see what they can see. This may be because they don't get punished? I remember people used to joke if a terran lost his first medivac to zest he'll just come and kill you. I'm assuming it's that mentality among some Korean terrans.
EPT
(Sorry I know you are sOs's fan) because I'm herO's fan. But I feel sOs may advance if he has a good day. He's not doing any online cup so it is hard to really know how well he is doing. Honestly, JAGW players are kind of meh lately. Rogue and Creator are bad these days. Cure and Trap are OK at best. Only Maru seems doing well.
