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On November 22 2016 19:02 fishjie wrote:
let the market determine the salary. capping it silly. 60k is very low. esp since they've sacrificed their entire lives. if pro gaming doesn't work out, they dont have any education to fall back on, no other skills to speak of, they are screwed for life
This is more true for mid-low tier pros who aren't affectrd by the salary cap anyway.
I doubt someone like Flash will run into financial trouble any time soon.
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Sallary caps are there to be circumvented, and its not the happy "everyone has a chance so it's basicly sports communism" thing that US-Sportleagues advertise it as (Since europeans mostly watch sports that has no cap, like Football (not handegg) Tennis, Formula 1 etc...)
One guy makes 50 Million Dollars a year, livin in Monaco, paying no Taxes, the next guy has to bring 20 Million / 5Years of his father's money to race (Formula 1).
Capping salary, only to have sponsors and "non gaming related salaries" to take their places is pretty stupid. It basicly allows teams to cut the new players income to still have that income differential between TopPlayers and B-Teamers.
What Kespa could have done is a minium Wage/Healthcare/Retirementplan for Progamers. Like every progamer is paid 10$/hour, and gets paid for 5 years after the contract ends to go back to school.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 22 2016 18:26 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2016 17:54 Magic Powers wrote:
I 100% side with Ronin and I had no idea so many people here were in favor of socialist solutions in competitive gaming. One of the main reasons people enter a competition is the top-heavy prize money. The less money there is to be won for placing first the less competitive it gets and the fewer people will be interested in outperforming the field. Whether that competition is a tournament or the everyday grind doesn't matter, in both cases it is favorable to pay the best performing/most famous players the most money (at least if they negotiate, otherwise it's their own loss).
Collusion of this kind is detrimential to competition because it removes incentive to join and practice hard. In the end the entire field collapses from a lack of new, freshly motivated players. Capitalism is required for a healthy competition, not socialism. Free market in any way and form sounds so cool in theory, doesnt it? Interestingly, so does a sensible reformulation of commumism. What a shame that both inevitably fail when implemented over actual people. In your example, the fail is that removing the cap does nothing for new players and only makes the rich even richer. If you wanna see why thats a problem, i heard they are running a large scale experiment with 300 milion people somewhere along the way past ireland. Sure if this were a KeSPA implemented salary cap. But this is all of the teams coming together to collectively decide that no one in SC2 is worth more than 60m (despite some of them being on much larger contracts coming into SC2). And because they're basically locked into a Korean team thanks to WCS there's nothing the players can do about it to leverage their results to get paid more. This was a move to keep salaries down, not improve competitiveness between teams.
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$60k/year is great considering the popularity of sc2 in Korea. Pointless to quote BW salaries unless OP wants to point out that BW is 4 times more popular than Sc2 in Korea (which is true)
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On November 22 2016 17:28 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2016 16:12 RoninKenshin wrote:On November 22 2016 15:11 Probe1 wrote:
Is it really? $60,000 USD is a very comfortable salary. What would be better for everyone? Why are we upset ProLeague is gone?
What most people have to realize before addressing this is that while $60,000 is a comfortable salary for most people in regular life, it's a garbage cap for these pros. Why? The majority of pros starts their career in middle school or high school. Due to the rigorous training schedule required to reach the top, meaning the status of Pro-gamer rather than the top of the Pro-gamers, most pros sacrifice their education. They may graduate, but they will not be able to score on on standardized tests which will allow them to enter top schools that lead to good jobs. This is especially serious in Korea where the University graduated from can be the main criteria for job searches. I know there's a few exceptions like Polt or Stephano, but most people cannot cannot balance both Pro SC2 and school. After playing for 10 years and retiring from SC2, there are really very few options. Some liked personalities will be able to get jobs in gaming like MC, although that may be temporary as well. I remember seeing a "where are they now" article a long time ago, and it was incredibly bleak. A couple really lucky ones will get a job with their sponsored company. The probability of getting another job that comes even close to $60k a year or one that will eventually even give raises to that amount is probably close to zero. The cap is garbage because getting into the career of competitive anything is essentially gambling that you can get to the top, make a living off of it, and coast through almost the rest of your life on it. You sacrifice all your other options for this risk. You don't just sacrifice your past and present, you sacrifice your future as well. If every player was paid $60,000 a year, then sure, that's fine. That would mean getting into pro-gaming would be a safe and comfortable job that yielding great reward for the few that could reach pro-gamer status. But instead there are tonnes of pro-gamers who got paid peanuts or even nothing. They're going to finish their 10 year careers with nothing in the bank and no future, and the top players are going to finish their career with some money in the bank and no future. Also the idea that the cap was there to prevent the rich teams from stealing all the players is ridiculous. Nothing stopped SKT from stealing every single player that showed the slightest bit of potential. Caps only work if all the teams have at least some money, and we know that a lot were tapped or didn't care to invest more. All the caps did was hurt the futures of the players. You're wrong, the teams never gained, anything from this money wise, the cap exist so that a player that is already being paid the highest amount cant get tempted into changing team because of a higher salary. In this case it is the team that is restricted,, if a team wants to offer 70k to a player they are not allowed to, if they don't want to offer that they never had to in the first place. How is a team saving money on not being allowed to offer other players a pay raise? "Also the idea that the cap was there to prevent the rich teams from stealing all the players is ridiculous" Sadly its its not and it functioned as intended. Star teams still stole talented players because they were underpaid and thats a good thing but stars that are paid max amount cant be stolen and that was a good thing.
The team owners gained the ability to not have to pay their top end players more money. Say there's no cap and Dark is doing awesome and his contract is coming up, then SKT suddenly has to offer him like $150k or whatever the top end is in negotiation to stay. They would pay the money as well, and are perfectly capable of doing so, in order to prevent him from going to other teams. All that the cap did was prevent Dark from receiving the full value of his skills.
Now say Zoun's contract is coming up. There's a cap... SKT doesn't care, you get whatever the minimum is. There's no cap.. SKT doesn't care, you get whatever the minimum is. All the cap does is stifle the top end players from getting what they deserve.
On November 22 2016 18:26 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2016 17:54 Magic Powers wrote:
I 100% side with Ronin and I had no idea so many people here were in favor of socialist solutions in competitive gaming. One of the main reasons people enter a competition is the top-heavy prize money. The less money there is to be won for placing first the less competitive it gets and the fewer people will be interested in outperforming the field. Whether that competition is a tournament or the everyday grind doesn't matter, in both cases it is favorable to pay the best performing/most famous players the most money (at least if they negotiate, otherwise it's their own loss).
Collusion of this kind is detrimential to competition because it removes incentive to join and practice hard. In the end the entire field collapses from a lack of new, freshly motivated players. Capitalism is required for a healthy competition, not socialism. Free market in any way and form sounds so cool in theory, doesnt it? Interestingly, so does a sensible reformulation of commumism. What a shame that both inevitably fail when implemented over actual people. In your example, the fail is that removing the cap does nothing for new players and only makes the rich even richer. If you wanna see why thats a problem, i heard they are running a large scale experiment with 300 milion people somewhere along the way past ireland.
The thing is, whether the cap is there or not, the low and mid-tier players are not affected. A removal of the cap makes it more rewarding to be the best, such as in the Bisu Flash Jaedong era, where we saw the hardest working players play the most amazing games of Brood War in history. With a cap, you have no incentive to drive yourself to mental exhausting to be a tier above everyone else. Instead it's fine to be just good enough and earn your paycheck. Whether Dark makes 70k or 250k, the rest of the SKT guys who make less than 70k will earn the same amount of money. The potential earnings don't get redistributed, it's the teams that save money. Removing the cap will allow the fair market value of the players come to pass. If I'm working 16 hours a day for 10 years trying to be the best pro-gamer in the world, I better well get paid good money for that effort.
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On November 22 2016 19:29 RoninKenshin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2016 17:28 Shuffleblade wrote:On November 22 2016 16:12 RoninKenshin wrote:On November 22 2016 15:11 Probe1 wrote:
Is it really? $60,000 USD is a very comfortable salary. What would be better for everyone? Why are we upset ProLeague is gone?
What most people have to realize before addressing this is that while $60,000 is a comfortable salary for most people in regular life, it's a garbage cap for these pros. Why? The majority of pros starts their career in middle school or high school. Due to the rigorous training schedule required to reach the top, meaning the status of Pro-gamer rather than the top of the Pro-gamers, most pros sacrifice their education. They may graduate, but they will not be able to score on on standardized tests which will allow them to enter top schools that lead to good jobs. This is especially serious in Korea where the University graduated from can be the main criteria for job searches. I know there's a few exceptions like Polt or Stephano, but most people cannot cannot balance both Pro SC2 and school. After playing for 10 years and retiring from SC2, there are really very few options. Some liked personalities will be able to get jobs in gaming like MC, although that may be temporary as well. I remember seeing a "where are they now" article a long time ago, and it was incredibly bleak. A couple really lucky ones will get a job with their sponsored company. The probability of getting another job that comes even close to $60k a year or one that will eventually even give raises to that amount is probably close to zero. The cap is garbage because getting into the career of competitive anything is essentially gambling that you can get to the top, make a living off of it, and coast through almost the rest of your life on it. You sacrifice all your other options for this risk. You don't just sacrifice your past and present, you sacrifice your future as well. If every player was paid $60,000 a year, then sure, that's fine. That would mean getting into pro-gaming would be a safe and comfortable job that yielding great reward for the few that could reach pro-gamer status. But instead there are tonnes of pro-gamers who got paid peanuts or even nothing. They're going to finish their 10 year careers with nothing in the bank and no future, and the top players are going to finish their career with some money in the bank and no future. Also the idea that the cap was there to prevent the rich teams from stealing all the players is ridiculous. Nothing stopped SKT from stealing every single player that showed the slightest bit of potential. Caps only work if all the teams have at least some money, and we know that a lot were tapped or didn't care to invest more. All the caps did was hurt the futures of the players. You're wrong, the teams never gained, anything from this money wise, the cap exist so that a player that is already being paid the highest amount cant get tempted into changing team because of a higher salary. In this case it is the team that is restricted,, if a team wants to offer 70k to a player they are not allowed to, if they don't want to offer that they never had to in the first place. How is a team saving money on not being allowed to offer other players a pay raise? "Also the idea that the cap was there to prevent the rich teams from stealing all the players is ridiculous" Sadly its its not and it functioned as intended. Star teams still stole talented players because they were underpaid and thats a good thing but stars that are paid max amount cant be stolen and that was a good thing. The team owners gained the ability to not have to pay their top end players more money. Say there's no cap and Dark is doing awesome and his contract is coming up, then SKT suddenly has to offer him like $150k or whatever the top end is in negotiation to stay. They would pay the money as well, and are perfectly capable of doing so, in order to prevent him from going to other teams. All that the cap did was prevent Dark from receiving the full value of his skills. Now say Zoun's contract is coming up. There's a cap... SKT doesn't care, you get whatever the minimum is. There's no cap.. SKT doesn't care, you get whatever the minimum is. All the cap does is stifle the top end players from getting what they deserve. Show nested quote +On November 22 2016 18:26 opisska wrote:On November 22 2016 17:54 Magic Powers wrote:
I 100% side with Ronin and I had no idea so many people here were in favor of socialist solutions in competitive gaming. One of the main reasons people enter a competition is the top-heavy prize money. The less money there is to be won for placing first the less competitive it gets and the fewer people will be interested in outperforming the field. Whether that competition is a tournament or the everyday grind doesn't matter, in both cases it is favorable to pay the best performing/most famous players the most money (at least if they negotiate, otherwise it's their own loss).
Collusion of this kind is detrimential to competition because it removes incentive to join and practice hard. In the end the entire field collapses from a lack of new, freshly motivated players. Capitalism is required for a healthy competition, not socialism. Free market in any way and form sounds so cool in theory, doesnt it? Interestingly, so does a sensible reformulation of commumism. What a shame that both inevitably fail when implemented over actual people. In your example, the fail is that removing the cap does nothing for new players and only makes the rich even richer. If you wanna see why thats a problem, i heard they are running a large scale experiment with 300 milion people somewhere along the way past ireland. The thing is, whether the cap is there or not, the low and mid-tier players are not affected. A removal of the cap makes it more rewarding to be the best, such as in the Bisu Flash Jaedong era, where we saw the hardest working players play the most amazing games of Brood War in history. With a cap, you have no incentive to drive yourself to mental exhausting to be a tier above everyone else. Instead it's fine to be just good enough and earn your paycheck. Whether Dark makes 70k or 250k, the rest of the SKT guys who make less than 70k will earn the same amount of money. The potential earnings don't get redistributed, it's the teams that save money. Removing the cap will allow the fair market value of the players come to pass. If I'm working 16 hours a day for 10 years trying to be the best pro-gamer in the world, I better well get paid good money for that effort.
you act like there would be enough money in the korean sc2 scene to pay Dark 150k. That isn't the case.
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On November 22 2016 19:18 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2016 18:26 opisska wrote:On November 22 2016 17:54 Magic Powers wrote:
I 100% side with Ronin and I had no idea so many people here were in favor of socialist solutions in competitive gaming. One of the main reasons people enter a competition is the top-heavy prize money. The less money there is to be won for placing first the less competitive it gets and the fewer people will be interested in outperforming the field. Whether that competition is a tournament or the everyday grind doesn't matter, in both cases it is favorable to pay the best performing/most famous players the most money (at least if they negotiate, otherwise it's their own loss).
Collusion of this kind is detrimential to competition because it removes incentive to join and practice hard. In the end the entire field collapses from a lack of new, freshly motivated players. Capitalism is required for a healthy competition, not socialism. Free market in any way and form sounds so cool in theory, doesnt it? Interestingly, so does a sensible reformulation of commumism. What a shame that both inevitably fail when implemented over actual people. In your example, the fail is that removing the cap does nothing for new players and only makes the rich even richer. If you wanna see why thats a problem, i heard they are running a large scale experiment with 300 milion people somewhere along the way past ireland. Sure if this were a KeSPA implemented salary cap. But this is all of the teams coming together to collectively decide that no one in SC2 is worth more than 60m (despite some of them being on much larger contracts coming into SC2). And because they're basically locked into a Korean team thanks to WCS there's nothing the players can do about it to leverage their results to get paid more. This was a move to keep salaries down, not improve competitiveness between teams.
This was clearly a move to keep the salaries from spiraling out of hand, as it happens in every other sport. If they didn't do it, the only difference would be that a handful of players who now got a lot of money would get even more money. What would it help in practice exactly, apart from your transcendent sense of fairness?
I think people fail to understand, that "collusion" between teams is nothing wrong not unusual. Spectator sport in an entertainment, enabled by the infrastructure around it, which includes teams. They are not each others' mortal enemy, they are not there to fight against each other with their last breath. They benefit from mutual cooperation and so does the whole scene.
The teams are also not for-profit organizations, they live off money someone gives out to them. This money is limited and it is much better spent on virtually anything but overpaying a handful of "superstars".
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TBH 20k a year is stupid low for this kind of job. These guys basically spend the 100% of their young/young adult life dedicated to a game, don't get any studies/skills, little social life, only work in it for a few years... and then what? Hell some of them even get their wrists fucked up.
If I ever were a progamer and noticed I would never become a superstar, I'd get out asap and go back to university.
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On November 22 2016 19:37 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2016 19:29 RoninKenshin wrote:On November 22 2016 17:28 Shuffleblade wrote:On November 22 2016 16:12 RoninKenshin wrote:On November 22 2016 15:11 Probe1 wrote:
Is it really? $60,000 USD is a very comfortable salary. What would be better for everyone? Why are we upset ProLeague is gone?
What most people have to realize before addressing this is that while $60,000 is a comfortable salary for most people in regular life, it's a garbage cap for these pros. Why? The majority of pros starts their career in middle school or high school. Due to the rigorous training schedule required to reach the top, meaning the status of Pro-gamer rather than the top of the Pro-gamers, most pros sacrifice their education. They may graduate, but they will not be able to score on on standardized tests which will allow them to enter top schools that lead to good jobs. This is especially serious in Korea where the University graduated from can be the main criteria for job searches. I know there's a few exceptions like Polt or Stephano, but most people cannot cannot balance both Pro SC2 and school. After playing for 10 years and retiring from SC2, there are really very few options. Some liked personalities will be able to get jobs in gaming like MC, although that may be temporary as well. I remember seeing a "where are they now" article a long time ago, and it was incredibly bleak. A couple really lucky ones will get a job with their sponsored company. The probability of getting another job that comes even close to $60k a year or one that will eventually even give raises to that amount is probably close to zero. The cap is garbage because getting into the career of competitive anything is essentially gambling that you can get to the top, make a living off of it, and coast through almost the rest of your life on it. You sacrifice all your other options for this risk. You don't just sacrifice your past and present, you sacrifice your future as well. If every player was paid $60,000 a year, then sure, that's fine. That would mean getting into pro-gaming would be a safe and comfortable job that yielding great reward for the few that could reach pro-gamer status. But instead there are tonnes of pro-gamers who got paid peanuts or even nothing. They're going to finish their 10 year careers with nothing in the bank and no future, and the top players are going to finish their career with some money in the bank and no future. Also the idea that the cap was there to prevent the rich teams from stealing all the players is ridiculous. Nothing stopped SKT from stealing every single player that showed the slightest bit of potential. Caps only work if all the teams have at least some money, and we know that a lot were tapped or didn't care to invest more. All the caps did was hurt the futures of the players. You're wrong, the teams never gained, anything from this money wise, the cap exist so that a player that is already being paid the highest amount cant get tempted into changing team because of a higher salary. In this case it is the team that is restricted,, if a team wants to offer 70k to a player they are not allowed to, if they don't want to offer that they never had to in the first place. How is a team saving money on not being allowed to offer other players a pay raise? "Also the idea that the cap was there to prevent the rich teams from stealing all the players is ridiculous" Sadly its its not and it functioned as intended. Star teams still stole talented players because they were underpaid and thats a good thing but stars that are paid max amount cant be stolen and that was a good thing. The team owners gained the ability to not have to pay their top end players more money. Say there's no cap and Dark is doing awesome and his contract is coming up, then SKT suddenly has to offer him like $150k or whatever the top end is in negotiation to stay. They would pay the money as well, and are perfectly capable of doing so, in order to prevent him from going to other teams. All that the cap did was prevent Dark from receiving the full value of his skills. Now say Zoun's contract is coming up. There's a cap... SKT doesn't care, you get whatever the minimum is. There's no cap.. SKT doesn't care, you get whatever the minimum is. All the cap does is stifle the top end players from getting what they deserve. On November 22 2016 18:26 opisska wrote:On November 22 2016 17:54 Magic Powers wrote:
I 100% side with Ronin and I had no idea so many people here were in favor of socialist solutions in competitive gaming. One of the main reasons people enter a competition is the top-heavy prize money. The less money there is to be won for placing first the less competitive it gets and the fewer people will be interested in outperforming the field. Whether that competition is a tournament or the everyday grind doesn't matter, in both cases it is favorable to pay the best performing/most famous players the most money (at least if they negotiate, otherwise it's their own loss).
Collusion of this kind is detrimential to competition because it removes incentive to join and practice hard. In the end the entire field collapses from a lack of new, freshly motivated players. Capitalism is required for a healthy competition, not socialism. Free market in any way and form sounds so cool in theory, doesnt it? Interestingly, so does a sensible reformulation of commumism. What a shame that both inevitably fail when implemented over actual people. In your example, the fail is that removing the cap does nothing for new players and only makes the rich even richer. If you wanna see why thats a problem, i heard they are running a large scale experiment with 300 milion people somewhere along the way past ireland. The thing is, whether the cap is there or not, the low and mid-tier players are not affected. A removal of the cap makes it more rewarding to be the best, such as in the Bisu Flash Jaedong era, where we saw the hardest working players play the most amazing games of Brood War in history. With a cap, you have no incentive to drive yourself to mental exhausting to be a tier above everyone else. Instead it's fine to be just good enough and earn your paycheck. Whether Dark makes 70k or 250k, the rest of the SKT guys who make less than 70k will earn the same amount of money. The potential earnings don't get redistributed, it's the teams that save money. Removing the cap will allow the fair market value of the players come to pass. If I'm working 16 hours a day for 10 years trying to be the best pro-gamer in the world, I better well get paid good money for that effort. you act like there would be enough money in the korean sc2 scene to pay Dark 150k. That isn't the case.
Which is kind of irrelevant to the question at hand. If the money isn't there Dark wouldn't get paid the 150k and the salary cap is not necessary.
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When Kespa swapped over 2012, the money in either BW or SC II was short and problematic.
Since the matchifixing scandal the inflated payments couldnt hold up without being problematic for the teams balance and with the swap to SC II, there was the right chance to correct this matter. Without this correction, maybe ProLeague would have disbanded in 2016 or 2015, when "legends" still gained over 150k$.
This doesnt mean I can understand the player perspective, nobody wants to see a cut in his income for a job you do 12 hours a day, 7 hours a week and ruining your personal education and your health while doing it. It also gives you an Idea why Soulkey, PartinG and Rain left SKT to join foreign teams. These players had to play for 60k dozen of weeks in ProLeague and the only individual League they could play in 2014 were 3 season of 100k$ GSLs (where all korean pros played). They were not allowed to boost their income by streaming or got send to ordenary foreign tournaments, only exeption are some players at IEM and alot of players at IEM World Finals.
So conlcude, the decision by Kespa was a good one for the teams and thus for the League and for SC II. Without it, spiralling out of control payments could have crumbled the ProLeague earlier. But for players who were used to 250k or more while also having no other options (streaming, foreign events) and also ruining their health and education, this was a harsh cut. But well, that happens, when you economical background changes and your job cant be payed as much as before. Get over it or find another one.
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On November 22 2016 19:45 Salteador Neo wrote:
TBH 20k a year is stupid low for this kind of job. These guys basically spend the 100% of their young/young adult life dedicated to a game, don't get any studies/skills, little social life, only work in it for a few years... and then what? Hell some of them even get their wrists fucked up.
If I ever were a progamer and noticed I would never become a superstar, I'd get out asap and go back to university.
Where did you get 20k figure from?
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On November 22 2016 20:29 Clonester wrote:
When Kespa swapped over 2012, the money in either BW or SC II was short and problematic.
Since the matchifixing scandal the inflated payments couldnt hold up without being problematic for the teams balance and with the swap to SC II, there was the right chance to correct this matter. Without this correction, maybe ProLeague would have disbanded in 2016 or 2015, when "legends" still gained over 150k$.
This doesnt mean I can understand the player perspective, nobody wants to see a cut in his income for a job you do 12 hours a day, 7 hours a week and ruining your personal education and your health while doing it. It also gives you an Idea why Soulkey, PartinG and Rain left SKT to join foreign teams. These players had to play for 60k dozen of weeks in ProLeague and the only individual League they could play in 2014 were 3 season of 100k$ GSLs (where all korean pros played). They were not allowed to boost their income by streaming or got send to ordenary foreign tournaments, only exeption are some players at IEM and alot of players at IEM World Finals.
So conlcude, the decision by Kespa was a good one for the teams and thus for the League and for SC II. Without it, spiralling out of control payments could have crumbled the ProLeague earlier. But for players who were used to 250k or more while also having no other options (streaming, foreign events) and also ruining their health and education, this was a harsh cut. But well, that happens, when you economical background changes and your job cant be payed as much as before. Get over it or find another one.
pure speculation. BW had these salaries for many years
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On November 22 2016 21:50 duke91 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2016 20:29 Clonester wrote:
When Kespa swapped over 2012, the money in either BW or SC II was short and problematic.
Since the matchifixing scandal the inflated payments couldnt hold up without being problematic for the teams balance and with the swap to SC II, there was the right chance to correct this matter. Without this correction, maybe ProLeague would have disbanded in 2016 or 2015, when "legends" still gained over 150k$.
This doesnt mean I can understand the player perspective, nobody wants to see a cut in his income for a job you do 12 hours a day, 7 hours a week and ruining your personal education and your health while doing it. It also gives you an Idea why Soulkey, PartinG and Rain left SKT to join foreign teams. These players had to play for 60k dozen of weeks in ProLeague and the only individual League they could play in 2014 were 3 season of 100k$ GSLs (where all korean pros played). They were not allowed to boost their income by streaming or got send to ordenary foreign tournaments, only exeption are some players at IEM and alot of players at IEM World Finals.
So conlcude, the decision by Kespa was a good one for the teams and thus for the League and for SC II. Without it, spiralling out of control payments could have crumbled the ProLeague earlier. But for players who were used to 250k or more while also having no other options (streaming, foreign events) and also ruining their health and education, this was a harsh cut. But well, that happens, when you economical background changes and your job cant be payed as much as before. Get over it or find another one. pure speculation. BW had these salaries for many years
Yeah and BW had a monopoly state and much more viewers and revenue. Even in 2012, the peak of SC II, SC II did not reach the amount of viewers that BW had in, lets say, 2005-2009.
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I cant believe some people think this is okay...
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On November 22 2016 20:29 Clonester wrote:
Since the matchifixing scandal the inflated payments couldnt hold up without being problematic for the teams balance and with the swap to SC II, there was the right chance to correct this matter. Without this correction, maybe ProLeague would have disbanded in 2016 or 2015, when "legends" still gained over 150k$.
Thank you for bringing up the scandal because it's actually an argument against collusion on salary caps! Without the financial incentive to matchfix there's a very high chance the best players would've refused the offer because they would be better off just grinding down their game, winning as many trophies as possible and being as popular as possible. Only the best players could matchfix because people were betting on them.
What some people don't understand about equal salaries in a competitive environment is that by taking away the financial incentive to outperform everyone the scene will slowly die out for one reason or another. Guess what happened?
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On November 22 2016 22:03 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
I cant believe some people think this is okay...
Many people have B.A or Master and they don't earn 60k a year. 60k a year for a progamer is pretty pretty good if they don't have to pay rent & energy etc. Consider that this is only salary, they can get additional money (prizemoney etc).
edit: I dont't know if a 2 year or 5 year break between high school and university is a big deal in korea but in most european countries don't see a problem.
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On November 22 2016 22:03 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
I cant believe some people think this is okay...
$60K per year is roughly five times what I get. Surely, I live in a cheaper country, but by far not by that much. So pardon me if I find it difficult to feel sorry for this terrible exploitation.
Again, it's completely pointless for anything and anyone but those selected few individuals to pack so much money into a handful of progamers, when there are hordes or non-paid or severly underpaid ones. If someone should support the limitation on top-heavy salaries in esports, it is the progamers in the first place.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On November 22 2016 15:06 sharkie wrote:
I don't mean to hate but how would Flash know whats going on in other teams?
You mean the most beloved player in Starcraft and icon of his game , looked up to by every player in his league.
How could he possibly get information about their contracts.
I wonder.
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I feel like you're all missing the point.
Just because you personally believe that 60k/year is okay, doesn't make collusion okay. This is every team in Korea collectively deciding together than no one in the SC2 scene is worth more than 60k a year. If that wasn't bad enough, Koreans couldn't even hop regions because of region lock.
It's not about the amount - it's about Korean teams essentially exploiting all of their players.
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On November 22 2016 21:29 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2016 19:45 Salteador Neo wrote:
TBH 20k a year is stupid low for this kind of job. These guys basically spend the 100% of their young/young adult life dedicated to a game, don't get any studies/skills, little social life, only work in it for a few years... and then what? Hell some of them even get their wrists fucked up.
If I ever were a progamer and noticed I would never become a superstar, I'd get out asap and go back to university. Where did you get 20k figure from?
In the first page RvB and Probe1 were talking about your "average pro salary" (let's say ~20k) compared to the superstars (those who would be affected by this salary cap).
I can imagine the average progamer doesn't earn anywhere near 60k, so I just wanted to give my oppinion on what should not be enough. Not saying they make exactly 20k tho, it's just some random speculation.
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EPT
