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On November 03 2016 22:59 KeksX wrote:
Is there even a comprehensive and up-to-date list of all current changes? It seems like the current list in the game is outdated.
There's not. there's the one in game, which was the original, and there's a post on the forums with the latest changes. Everything in between is somewhere on a forum, but mot easy to find.
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I always liked Whirlwind. I don't really know how it'll play but it's a great map for space and longer games.
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They can still change things after Blizzcone as there's gonna be Shoutcraft Kings played on the balance changes.
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On November 03 2016 22:59 KeksX wrote:
Is there even a comprehensive and up-to-date list of all current changes? It seems like the current list in the game is outdated.
I'm pretty sure the list that is in-game is updated. If it says that Tempest has 8 range instead of 6 then it's up to date, can't check it now myself
Plus I think the latest change was a new Tempest ability, it's listed there and I played around with it, so it has to be right
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On November 03 2016 22:44 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 19:02 JackONeill wrote:
On the one hand, people considering the thor should obliterate the viper before it can do anything is stupid, on the other people considering that the viper should be able to pick off units for free and disable entire positions for 75 energy without any risk is stupid too.
The main issue with HOTS and LOTV units design is that many of them rely on "free" damage. Tempest outranging any unit in the game, viper abduct, SH.
Any unit should be about trading, trading well or trading poorly. Overwhelm a tank with 20 lings you'll trade favorably, but the tank will still kill a ling or three. And that's one of the most specialised unit in WOL.
However, having tempest + revelation kill stuff for free is not ok. Having the viper pickoff units without any risk is not ok. What are utalking about? Vipers are perfectly counterable by ghosts snipes or emp or HT with feedback. And even if u use ball of viper to mass abduct u will always lose some of them. But Mechh ball with 13 range Thors, buffed siegetank, ravens and hellbats for tanking damage will have no counter. And every time i read a whining mech player they always demand same thing- no counter for their army composition. I mean, isn't enough that mech is dominant on the ground? Their proposals don't even make room for other players to fight that. It's lije- once i leave my basr with army there should be nothing to stop that. Thats retarded indeed.
To be honest I feel like mech is very strong against zerg in the current non test map state of things. However there are some issues with the vipers that aren't really about balance, but about design. And 13 range thor is stupid, 10 range is already really good against BLs.
Mech "ultimate army" can defeat zerg's "ultimate army" right now. Queen/BL/corruptors/vipers is weaker than ranged liberators/thors/vikings/raven/hellbats. Which is fine, since zerg is supposed to have better gaz economy and repop capabilities.
The issue mainly lies in zerg's mid game abilities to be active, and the fact that once vipers are out, mech is forced into "turtle until the maps runs out of ressources". Vipers are not broken, they're not overly powerful, they just force mech to never move out without turrets cover.
The ability to pick of 6 supply 300/200 (or 400/300 if you're dumb enough to build BCs) units, combined with the extreme zoning ability of the parasitic bomb (which forces you to dissengage with your vikings, because chasing means clumping) makes mech total shit if you're not behind 20 turrets. In this sense, not much has changed since the last months of HOTS where mech was about depleating the map's ressources.
The problematic thing is not about mass vipers. It's not really about counters either, since both the thor and the viking can force the vipers to trade if they want to pick off units, and the ghost, while very hard to use, allows mech players to prevent zergs from engaging too boldly.
The fact mech sucks so bad against concaves and bad positionning, combined with the viper being the ultimate swiss knife against every single mech unit is problematic. It's not about balance, it's about the fact it forces mech to turtle, and that it denies any mid game for zergs.
Because the viper fills so many roles that are not assumed by T2 zerg units, zergs have to rush hive against mech. A redistribution of strength and utility is needed to make zerg's T2 much better, instead of forcing them into rushing the unit that will armlock the game into a ressources turtle war. For instance, the infestor and the SH should be buffed to fill some of the viper's role (AA AoE, and high value targets snipe), in exchange for the removal of the parastic bomb and an necessary abduct nerf (can't grab massive units).
It's not about balance, it's about redistributing zerg strength against mech throughout the tech tree to have dynamic T2 ZvMech instead of a campfest "straight into T3" while terran turtles forever and waits for the map to run out of ressources.
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Okay the two worst maps are gone.. but it's still a big freaking list of maps that weren't designed for LotV economy. What the heck.
On November 03 2016 06:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +We haven’t received as much testing as we had hoped with the balance testing queue, but thankfully we do have the offseason to continue tuning and polishing these major changes on the live game before the ladder seasons begin next year.
an interesting red flag from DK. people have 2 choices... the current released version of the game or the more experimental version of the game. i guess people like the current version better.
The only time this works is when you're adding new content. They aren't. They're tweaking the existing content. There only motivation for players is to bitch from a position of experience/authority. There is no reward. Unless the game was so wholly broken in current patch that it is flat out better to play experimental then there's no benefit for the players.
Like many other modern concepts, Blizzard only understands early access from a fiscal point of view (Overwatch beta) and not from a development standpoint.
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On November 03 2016 23:59 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 22:44 hiroshOne wrote:On November 03 2016 19:02 JackONeill wrote:
On the one hand, people considering the thor should obliterate the viper before it can do anything is stupid, on the other people considering that the viper should be able to pick off units for free and disable entire positions for 75 energy without any risk is stupid too.
The main issue with HOTS and LOTV units design is that many of them rely on "free" damage. Tempest outranging any unit in the game, viper abduct, SH.
Any unit should be about trading, trading well or trading poorly. Overwhelm a tank with 20 lings you'll trade favorably, but the tank will still kill a ling or three. And that's one of the most specialised unit in WOL.
However, having tempest + revelation kill stuff for free is not ok. Having the viper pickoff units without any risk is not ok. + Show Spoiler +What are utalking about? Vipers are perfectly counterable by ghosts snipes or emp or HT with feedback. And even if u use ball of viper to mass abduct u will always lose some of them. But Mechh ball with 13 range Thors, buffed siegetank, ravens and hellbats for tanking damage will have no counter. And every time i read a whining mech player they always demand same thing- no counter for their army composition. I mean, isn't enough that mech is dominant on the ground? Their proposals don't even make room for other players to fight that. It's lije- once i leave my basr with army there should be nothing to stop that. Thats retarded indeed. To be honest I feel like mech is very strong against zerg in the current non test map state of things. However there are some issues with the vipers that aren't really about balance, but about design. And 13 range thor is stupid, 10 range is already really good against BLs. Mech "ultimate army" can defeat zerg's "ultimate army" right now. Queen/BL/corruptors/vipers is weaker than ranged liberators/thors/vikings/raven/hellbats. Which is fine, since zerg is supposed to have better gaz economy and repop capabilities. The issue mainly lies in zerg's mid game abilities to be active, and the fact that once vipers are out, mech is forced into "turtle until the maps runs out of ressources". Vipers are not broken, they're not overly powerful, they just force mech to never move out without turrets cover. The ability to pick of 6 supply 300/200 (or 400/300 if you're dumb enough to build BCs) units, combined with the extreme zoning ability of the parasitic bomb (which forces you to dissengage with your vikings, because chasing means clumping) makes mech total shit if you're not behind 20 turrets. In this sense, not much has changed since the last months of HOTS where mech was about depleating the map's ressources. The problematic thing is not about mass vipers. It's not really about counters either, since both the thor and the viking can force the vipers to trade if they want to pick off units, and the ghost, while very hard to use, allows mech players to prevent zergs from engaging too boldly. The fact mech sucks so bad against concaves and bad positionning, combined with the viper being the ultimate swiss knife against every single mech unit is problematic. It's not about balance, it's about the fact it forces mech to turtle, and that it denies any mid game for zergs. Because the viper fills so many roles that are not assumed by T2 zerg units, zergs have to rush hive against mech. A redistribution of strength and utility is needed to make zerg's T2 much better, instead of forcing them into rushing the unit that will armlock the game into a ressources turtle war. For instance, the infestor and the SH should be buffed to fill some of the viper's role (AA AoE, and high value targets snipe), in exchange for the removal of the parastic bomb and an necessary abduct nerf (can't grab massive units). It's not about balance, it's about redistributing zerg strength against mech throughout the tech tree to have dynamic T2 ZvMech instead of a campfest "straight into T3" while terran turtles forever and waits for the map to run out of ressources.
Aren't BLs getting their range further nerfed still, or was that dropped?
I totally agree with your point of the strong T3 weak T2 dynamic being unfavorable in ZvT. I really, really hate how the safest way to play and win is NR10 then once your ultras are out you can finally get offensive. Similar deal with mech.
It's boring.
It's not satisfying.
It's stressful defending a ton of very potent timing attacks and harass, and if you fuck up the game is effectively over unless your opponent makes a horrible mistake.
It's just not good gameplay and it's one of the reasons why my motivation is to play other games.
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On November 04 2016 00:13 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 23:59 JackONeill wrote:On November 03 2016 22:44 hiroshOne wrote:On November 03 2016 19:02 JackONeill wrote:
On the one hand, people considering the thor should obliterate the viper before it can do anything is stupid, on the other people considering that the viper should be able to pick off units for free and disable entire positions for 75 energy without any risk is stupid too.
The main issue with HOTS and LOTV units design is that many of them rely on "free" damage. Tempest outranging any unit in the game, viper abduct, SH.
Any unit should be about trading, trading well or trading poorly. Overwhelm a tank with 20 lings you'll trade favorably, but the tank will still kill a ling or three. And that's one of the most specialised unit in WOL.
However, having tempest + revelation kill stuff for free is not ok. Having the viper pickoff units without any risk is not ok. + Show Spoiler +What are utalking about? Vipers are perfectly counterable by ghosts snipes or emp or HT with feedback. And even if u use ball of viper to mass abduct u will always lose some of them. But Mechh ball with 13 range Thors, buffed siegetank, ravens and hellbats for tanking damage will have no counter. And every time i read a whining mech player they always demand same thing- no counter for their army composition. I mean, isn't enough that mech is dominant on the ground? Their proposals don't even make room for other players to fight that. It's lije- once i leave my basr with army there should be nothing to stop that. Thats retarded indeed. To be honest I feel like mech is very strong against zerg in the current non test map state of things. However there are some issues with the vipers that aren't really about balance, but about design. And 13 range thor is stupid, 10 range is already really good against BLs. Mech "ultimate army" can defeat zerg's "ultimate army" right now. Queen/BL/corruptors/vipers is weaker than ranged liberators/thors/vikings/raven/hellbats. Which is fine, since zerg is supposed to have better gaz economy and repop capabilities. The issue mainly lies in zerg's mid game abilities to be active, and the fact that once vipers are out, mech is forced into "turtle until the maps runs out of ressources". Vipers are not broken, they're not overly powerful, they just force mech to never move out without turrets cover. The ability to pick of 6 supply 300/200 (or 400/300 if you're dumb enough to build BCs) units, combined with the extreme zoning ability of the parasitic bomb (which forces you to dissengage with your vikings, because chasing means clumping) makes mech total shit if you're not behind 20 turrets. In this sense, not much has changed since the last months of HOTS where mech was about depleating the map's ressources. The problematic thing is not about mass vipers. It's not really about counters either, since both the thor and the viking can force the vipers to trade if they want to pick off units, and the ghost, while very hard to use, allows mech players to prevent zergs from engaging too boldly. The fact mech sucks so bad against concaves and bad positionning, combined with the viper being the ultimate swiss knife against every single mech unit is problematic. It's not about balance, it's about the fact it forces mech to turtle, and that it denies any mid game for zergs. Because the viper fills so many roles that are not assumed by T2 zerg units, zergs have to rush hive against mech. A redistribution of strength and utility is needed to make zerg's T2 much better, instead of forcing them into rushing the unit that will armlock the game into a ressources turtle war. For instance, the infestor and the SH should be buffed to fill some of the viper's role (AA AoE, and high value targets snipe), in exchange for the removal of the parastic bomb and an necessary abduct nerf (can't grab massive units). It's not about balance, it's about redistributing zerg strength against mech throughout the tech tree to have dynamic T2 ZvMech instead of a campfest "straight into T3" while terran turtles forever and waits for the map to run out of ressources. Aren't BLs getting their range further nerfed still, or was that dropped? I totally agree with your point of the strong T3 weak T2 dynamic being unfavorable in ZvT. I really, really hate how the safest way to play and win is NR10 then once your ultras are out you can finally get offensive. Similar deal with mech. It's boring. It's not satisfying. It's stressful defending a ton of very potent timing attacks and harass, and if you fuck up the game is effectively over unless your opponent makes a horrible mistake. It's just not good gameplay and it's one of the reasons why my motivation is to play other games.
Broodlords are getting their range nerfed from 11 to 10, yeah.
No idea why, not like we ever see them now.
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Overgrowth
Newkirk Precinct TE
Whirlwind
Vaani Research station
Im happy to see theese maps again altho im still waiting for Neo Planet S to be in the pool again 
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On November 04 2016 00:33 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 00:13 Probe1 wrote:On November 03 2016 23:59 JackONeill wrote:On November 03 2016 22:44 hiroshOne wrote:On November 03 2016 19:02 JackONeill wrote:
On the one hand, people considering the thor should obliterate the viper before it can do anything is stupid, on the other people considering that the viper should be able to pick off units for free and disable entire positions for 75 energy without any risk is stupid too.
The main issue with HOTS and LOTV units design is that many of them rely on "free" damage. Tempest outranging any unit in the game, viper abduct, SH.
Any unit should be about trading, trading well or trading poorly. Overwhelm a tank with 20 lings you'll trade favorably, but the tank will still kill a ling or three. And that's one of the most specialised unit in WOL.
However, having tempest + revelation kill stuff for free is not ok. Having the viper pickoff units without any risk is not ok. + Show Spoiler +What are utalking about? Vipers are perfectly counterable by ghosts snipes or emp or HT with feedback. And even if u use ball of viper to mass abduct u will always lose some of them. But Mechh ball with 13 range Thors, buffed siegetank, ravens and hellbats for tanking damage will have no counter. And every time i read a whining mech player they always demand same thing- no counter for their army composition. I mean, isn't enough that mech is dominant on the ground? Their proposals don't even make room for other players to fight that. It's lije- once i leave my basr with army there should be nothing to stop that. Thats retarded indeed. To be honest I feel like mech is very strong against zerg in the current non test map state of things. However there are some issues with the vipers that aren't really about balance, but about design. And 13 range thor is stupid, 10 range is already really good against BLs. Mech "ultimate army" can defeat zerg's "ultimate army" right now. Queen/BL/corruptors/vipers is weaker than ranged liberators/thors/vikings/raven/hellbats. Which is fine, since zerg is supposed to have better gaz economy and repop capabilities. The issue mainly lies in zerg's mid game abilities to be active, and the fact that once vipers are out, mech is forced into "turtle until the maps runs out of ressources". Vipers are not broken, they're not overly powerful, they just force mech to never move out without turrets cover. The ability to pick of 6 supply 300/200 (or 400/300 if you're dumb enough to build BCs) units, combined with the extreme zoning ability of the parasitic bomb (which forces you to dissengage with your vikings, because chasing means clumping) makes mech total shit if you're not behind 20 turrets. In this sense, not much has changed since the last months of HOTS where mech was about depleating the map's ressources. The problematic thing is not about mass vipers. It's not really about counters either, since both the thor and the viking can force the vipers to trade if they want to pick off units, and the ghost, while very hard to use, allows mech players to prevent zergs from engaging too boldly. The fact mech sucks so bad against concaves and bad positionning, combined with the viper being the ultimate swiss knife against every single mech unit is problematic. It's not about balance, it's about the fact it forces mech to turtle, and that it denies any mid game for zergs. Because the viper fills so many roles that are not assumed by T2 zerg units, zergs have to rush hive against mech. A redistribution of strength and utility is needed to make zerg's T2 much better, instead of forcing them into rushing the unit that will armlock the game into a ressources turtle war. For instance, the infestor and the SH should be buffed to fill some of the viper's role (AA AoE, and high value targets snipe), in exchange for the removal of the parastic bomb and an necessary abduct nerf (can't grab massive units). It's not about balance, it's about redistributing zerg strength against mech throughout the tech tree to have dynamic T2 ZvMech instead of a campfest "straight into T3" while terran turtles forever and waits for the map to run out of ressources. Aren't BLs getting their range further nerfed still, or was that dropped? I totally agree with your point of the strong T3 weak T2 dynamic being unfavorable in ZvT. I really, really hate how the safest way to play and win is NR10 then once your ultras are out you can finally get offensive. Similar deal with mech. It's boring. It's not satisfying. It's stressful defending a ton of very potent timing attacks and harass, and if you fuck up the game is effectively over unless your opponent makes a horrible mistake. It's just not good gameplay and it's one of the reasons why my motivation is to play other games. Broodlords are getting their range nerfed from 11 to 10, yeah. No idea why, not like we ever see them now.
What is your requirement for a unit to be "ever seen"? To be used commonly as Roach or Hydralisk? I'm watching mostly Protoss streams and I see Brood Lords very often in PvZ, from last WCS matches I clearly remember that Dark played Brood Lord/Corruptor in the first match against Stats on New Gettysburg but overmade Corruptors after wiping out air army Stats had and just died because of no gas
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On November 03 2016 04:27 -NegativeZero- wrote:
glad to see they replaced the 2 worst maps from the previous post (dusk towers and ulrena). this is actually an extremely solid map pool, maybe a little too standard for my liking - i get why they're doing it, it's for balance testing, but i still wish they were more adventurous and willing to try out some new maps.
literally the opposite feedback of what they received for trying out new maps. i guess you cant satisfy everyone.
also it looks like they really want to see a lot of mech, not really looking forward to that.
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On November 04 2016 00:33 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 00:13 Probe1 wrote:On November 03 2016 23:59 JackONeill wrote:On November 03 2016 22:44 hiroshOne wrote:On November 03 2016 19:02 JackONeill wrote:
On the one hand, people considering the thor should obliterate the viper before it can do anything is stupid, on the other people considering that the viper should be able to pick off units for free and disable entire positions for 75 energy without any risk is stupid too.
The main issue with HOTS and LOTV units design is that many of them rely on "free" damage. Tempest outranging any unit in the game, viper abduct, SH.
Any unit should be about trading, trading well or trading poorly. Overwhelm a tank with 20 lings you'll trade favorably, but the tank will still kill a ling or three. And that's one of the most specialised unit in WOL.
However, having tempest + revelation kill stuff for free is not ok. Having the viper pickoff units without any risk is not ok. + Show Spoiler +What are utalking about? Vipers are perfectly counterable by ghosts snipes or emp or HT with feedback. And even if u use ball of viper to mass abduct u will always lose some of them. But Mechh ball with 13 range Thors, buffed siegetank, ravens and hellbats for tanking damage will have no counter. And every time i read a whining mech player they always demand same thing- no counter for their army composition. I mean, isn't enough that mech is dominant on the ground? Their proposals don't even make room for other players to fight that. It's lije- once i leave my basr with army there should be nothing to stop that. Thats retarded indeed. To be honest I feel like mech is very strong against zerg in the current non test map state of things. However there are some issues with the vipers that aren't really about balance, but about design. And 13 range thor is stupid, 10 range is already really good against BLs. Mech "ultimate army" can defeat zerg's "ultimate army" right now. Queen/BL/corruptors/vipers is weaker than ranged liberators/thors/vikings/raven/hellbats. Which is fine, since zerg is supposed to have better gaz economy and repop capabilities. The issue mainly lies in zerg's mid game abilities to be active, and the fact that once vipers are out, mech is forced into "turtle until the maps runs out of ressources". Vipers are not broken, they're not overly powerful, they just force mech to never move out without turrets cover. The ability to pick of 6 supply 300/200 (or 400/300 if you're dumb enough to build BCs) units, combined with the extreme zoning ability of the parasitic bomb (which forces you to dissengage with your vikings, because chasing means clumping) makes mech total shit if you're not behind 20 turrets. In this sense, not much has changed since the last months of HOTS where mech was about depleating the map's ressources. The problematic thing is not about mass vipers. It's not really about counters either, since both the thor and the viking can force the vipers to trade if they want to pick off units, and the ghost, while very hard to use, allows mech players to prevent zergs from engaging too boldly. The fact mech sucks so bad against concaves and bad positionning, combined with the viper being the ultimate swiss knife against every single mech unit is problematic. It's not about balance, it's about the fact it forces mech to turtle, and that it denies any mid game for zergs. Because the viper fills so many roles that are not assumed by T2 zerg units, zergs have to rush hive against mech. A redistribution of strength and utility is needed to make zerg's T2 much better, instead of forcing them into rushing the unit that will armlock the game into a ressources turtle war. For instance, the infestor and the SH should be buffed to fill some of the viper's role (AA AoE, and high value targets snipe), in exchange for the removal of the parastic bomb and an necessary abduct nerf (can't grab massive units). It's not about balance, it's about redistributing zerg strength against mech throughout the tech tree to have dynamic T2 ZvMech instead of a campfest "straight into T3" while terran turtles forever and waits for the map to run out of ressources. Aren't BLs getting their range further nerfed still, or was that dropped? I totally agree with your point of the strong T3 weak T2 dynamic being unfavorable in ZvT. I really, really hate how the safest way to play and win is NR10 then once your ultras are out you can finally get offensive. Similar deal with mech. It's boring. It's not satisfying. It's stressful defending a ton of very potent timing attacks and harass, and if you fuck up the game is effectively over unless your opponent makes a horrible mistake. It's just not good gameplay and it's one of the reasons why my motivation is to play other games. Broodlords are getting their range nerfed from 11 to 10, yeah. No idea why, not like we ever see them now.
It still good vs mech but it's bad at low numbers now
I think zerg midgame will be way more solid than mech in midgame due to buffed hydras and with viper mixed in, it would be extremely hard for mech to move out since hydra trads well in good spread
With vipers out with its multipurpose spells, yes mech wouldn't want to trade or initiate it unless viper energy is depleted. It's not really great to lose gas units with abduct and para bomb late game when bases are becoming mined out when zerg can replenish their energy relatively quickly. With para bomb and abduct, you don't really wanna engage without turret wall in front ensuring some vipers would die during exchange
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On November 04 2016 00:49 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 00:33 InfCereal wrote:On November 04 2016 00:13 Probe1 wrote:On November 03 2016 23:59 JackONeill wrote:On November 03 2016 22:44 hiroshOne wrote:On November 03 2016 19:02 JackONeill wrote:
On the one hand, people considering the thor should obliterate the viper before it can do anything is stupid, on the other people considering that the viper should be able to pick off units for free and disable entire positions for 75 energy without any risk is stupid too.
The main issue with HOTS and LOTV units design is that many of them rely on "free" damage. Tempest outranging any unit in the game, viper abduct, SH.
Any unit should be about trading, trading well or trading poorly. Overwhelm a tank with 20 lings you'll trade favorably, but the tank will still kill a ling or three. And that's one of the most specialised unit in WOL.
However, having tempest + revelation kill stuff for free is not ok. Having the viper pickoff units without any risk is not ok. + Show Spoiler +What are utalking about? Vipers are perfectly counterable by ghosts snipes or emp or HT with feedback. And even if u use ball of viper to mass abduct u will always lose some of them. But Mechh ball with 13 range Thors, buffed siegetank, ravens and hellbats for tanking damage will have no counter. And every time i read a whining mech player they always demand same thing- no counter for their army composition. I mean, isn't enough that mech is dominant on the ground? Their proposals don't even make room for other players to fight that. It's lije- once i leave my basr with army there should be nothing to stop that. Thats retarded indeed. To be honest I feel like mech is very strong against zerg in the current non test map state of things. However there are some issues with the vipers that aren't really about balance, but about design. And 13 range thor is stupid, 10 range is already really good against BLs. Mech "ultimate army" can defeat zerg's "ultimate army" right now. Queen/BL/corruptors/vipers is weaker than ranged liberators/thors/vikings/raven/hellbats. Which is fine, since zerg is supposed to have better gaz economy and repop capabilities. The issue mainly lies in zerg's mid game abilities to be active, and the fact that once vipers are out, mech is forced into "turtle until the maps runs out of ressources". Vipers are not broken, they're not overly powerful, they just force mech to never move out without turrets cover. The ability to pick of 6 supply 300/200 (or 400/300 if you're dumb enough to build BCs) units, combined with the extreme zoning ability of the parasitic bomb (which forces you to dissengage with your vikings, because chasing means clumping) makes mech total shit if you're not behind 20 turrets. In this sense, not much has changed since the last months of HOTS where mech was about depleating the map's ressources. The problematic thing is not about mass vipers. It's not really about counters either, since both the thor and the viking can force the vipers to trade if they want to pick off units, and the ghost, while very hard to use, allows mech players to prevent zergs from engaging too boldly. The fact mech sucks so bad against concaves and bad positionning, combined with the viper being the ultimate swiss knife against every single mech unit is problematic. It's not about balance, it's about the fact it forces mech to turtle, and that it denies any mid game for zergs. Because the viper fills so many roles that are not assumed by T2 zerg units, zergs have to rush hive against mech. A redistribution of strength and utility is needed to make zerg's T2 much better, instead of forcing them into rushing the unit that will armlock the game into a ressources turtle war. For instance, the infestor and the SH should be buffed to fill some of the viper's role (AA AoE, and high value targets snipe), in exchange for the removal of the parastic bomb and an necessary abduct nerf (can't grab massive units). It's not about balance, it's about redistributing zerg strength against mech throughout the tech tree to have dynamic T2 ZvMech instead of a campfest "straight into T3" while terran turtles forever and waits for the map to run out of ressources. Aren't BLs getting their range further nerfed still, or was that dropped? I totally agree with your point of the strong T3 weak T2 dynamic being unfavorable in ZvT. I really, really hate how the safest way to play and win is NR10 then once your ultras are out you can finally get offensive. Similar deal with mech. It's boring. It's not satisfying. It's stressful defending a ton of very potent timing attacks and harass, and if you fuck up the game is effectively over unless your opponent makes a horrible mistake. It's just not good gameplay and it's one of the reasons why my motivation is to play other games. Broodlords are getting their range nerfed from 11 to 10, yeah. No idea why, not like we ever see them now. What is your requirement for a unit to be "ever seen"? To be used commonly as Roach or Hydralisk? I'm watching mostly Protoss streams and I see Brood Lords very often in PvZ, from last WCS matches I clearly remember that Dark played Brood Lord/Corruptor in the first match against Stats on New Gettysburg but overmade Corruptors after wiping out air army Stats had and just died because of no gas
I think what he's getting at is you don't make brood lords unless you need brood lords. They have a very specific purpose in match ups and need a whole lot of supporting units or else they get shrekt. The comparison is being made to ultralisks which stand on their own as an awesome and useful unit.
Their need to be babysat gives players a bad taste since their cost (both in resources and time) is pretty high.
Sure we see them. But we see them as a response and for a specialized task. So the proposed nerf is saying "Hey you know that unit you don't really like making? Here's another reason!"
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On November 03 2016 20:23 insitelol wrote:
Calling it.
Playerbase dropping to 100k after patch hits live.
"Remember this post".
Ha, if we actually have 100k competitive players that would be an improvement. (Even popular browser games like Kancolle have more dedicated players than what SC2 have for competitive. If you want to compare to a niche game with similar complexity that require significant time investment, EVE online have about the same number of people logged in per day yet their PCU keeps going down as well. Those EVE players player are on subscription and many of them subbed and don't log in unless they absolutely have to.)
Right now I can safely say a significant portion of the server load is on Co-op missions. (Not that there is anything wrong with it.)
Ref:
http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/population/1v1/#v=0&r=-2&sx=a&sy=c
http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility http://web.archive.org/web/20150425191903/http://ascii.jp/elem/000/001/0j01/1001334/
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On November 04 2016 00:49 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 00:33 InfCereal wrote:On November 04 2016 00:13 Probe1 wrote:On November 03 2016 23:59 JackONeill wrote:On November 03 2016 22:44 hiroshOne wrote:On November 03 2016 19:02 JackONeill wrote:
On the one hand, people considering the thor should obliterate the viper before it can do anything is stupid, on the other people considering that the viper should be able to pick off units for free and disable entire positions for 75 energy without any risk is stupid too.
The main issue with HOTS and LOTV units design is that many of them rely on "free" damage. Tempest outranging any unit in the game, viper abduct, SH.
Any unit should be about trading, trading well or trading poorly. Overwhelm a tank with 20 lings you'll trade favorably, but the tank will still kill a ling or three. And that's one of the most specialised unit in WOL.
However, having tempest + revelation kill stuff for free is not ok. Having the viper pickoff units without any risk is not ok. + Show Spoiler +What are utalking about? Vipers are perfectly counterable by ghosts snipes or emp or HT with feedback. And even if u use ball of viper to mass abduct u will always lose some of them. But Mechh ball with 13 range Thors, buffed siegetank, ravens and hellbats for tanking damage will have no counter. And every time i read a whining mech player they always demand same thing- no counter for their army composition. I mean, isn't enough that mech is dominant on the ground? Their proposals don't even make room for other players to fight that. It's lije- once i leave my basr with army there should be nothing to stop that. Thats retarded indeed. To be honest I feel like mech is very strong against zerg in the current non test map state of things. However there are some issues with the vipers that aren't really about balance, but about design. And 13 range thor is stupid, 10 range is already really good against BLs. Mech "ultimate army" can defeat zerg's "ultimate army" right now. Queen/BL/corruptors/vipers is weaker than ranged liberators/thors/vikings/raven/hellbats. Which is fine, since zerg is supposed to have better gaz economy and repop capabilities. The issue mainly lies in zerg's mid game abilities to be active, and the fact that once vipers are out, mech is forced into "turtle until the maps runs out of ressources". Vipers are not broken, they're not overly powerful, they just force mech to never move out without turrets cover. The ability to pick of 6 supply 300/200 (or 400/300 if you're dumb enough to build BCs) units, combined with the extreme zoning ability of the parasitic bomb (which forces you to dissengage with your vikings, because chasing means clumping) makes mech total shit if you're not behind 20 turrets. In this sense, not much has changed since the last months of HOTS where mech was about depleating the map's ressources. The problematic thing is not about mass vipers. It's not really about counters either, since both the thor and the viking can force the vipers to trade if they want to pick off units, and the ghost, while very hard to use, allows mech players to prevent zergs from engaging too boldly. The fact mech sucks so bad against concaves and bad positionning, combined with the viper being the ultimate swiss knife against every single mech unit is problematic. It's not about balance, it's about the fact it forces mech to turtle, and that it denies any mid game for zergs. Because the viper fills so many roles that are not assumed by T2 zerg units, zergs have to rush hive against mech. A redistribution of strength and utility is needed to make zerg's T2 much better, instead of forcing them into rushing the unit that will armlock the game into a ressources turtle war. For instance, the infestor and the SH should be buffed to fill some of the viper's role (AA AoE, and high value targets snipe), in exchange for the removal of the parastic bomb and an necessary abduct nerf (can't grab massive units). It's not about balance, it's about redistributing zerg strength against mech throughout the tech tree to have dynamic T2 ZvMech instead of a campfest "straight into T3" while terran turtles forever and waits for the map to run out of ressources. Aren't BLs getting their range further nerfed still, or was that dropped? I totally agree with your point of the strong T3 weak T2 dynamic being unfavorable in ZvT. I really, really hate how the safest way to play and win is NR10 then once your ultras are out you can finally get offensive. Similar deal with mech. It's boring. It's not satisfying. It's stressful defending a ton of very potent timing attacks and harass, and if you fuck up the game is effectively over unless your opponent makes a horrible mistake. It's just not good gameplay and it's one of the reasons why my motivation is to play other games. Broodlords are getting their range nerfed from 11 to 10, yeah. No idea why, not like we ever see them now. What is your requirement for a unit to be "ever seen"? To be used commonly as Roach or Hydralisk? I'm watching mostly Protoss streams and I see Brood Lords very often in PvZ, from last WCS matches I clearly remember that Dark played Brood Lord/Corruptor in the first match against Stats on New Gettysburg but overmade Corruptors after wiping out air army Stats had and just died because of no gas
Broods are really good as a surprise. In a similar way to 8 BFH are good as a surprise, 4 DTs are good as a surprise, and mass carrier is good as a surprise.
If you know it's coming, they're completely fucking useless. You see them in PvZ because if a zerg makes the mistake of going late game vs protoss, they need broodlords to prevent outright dying. If the protoss responds wrong, or just had no idea the greater spire was even an option, they'll probably just lose.
They're complete shit to have around after the fact, unless you've already won.
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On November 04 2016 00:09 Probe1 wrote:Okay the two worst maps are gone.. but it's still a big freaking list of maps that weren't designed for LotV economy. What the heck. Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 06:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:We haven’t received as much testing as we had hoped with the balance testing queue, but thankfully we do have the offseason to continue tuning and polishing these major changes on the live game before the ladder seasons begin next year.
an interesting red flag from DK. people have 2 choices... the current released version of the game or the more experimental version of the game. i guess people like the current version better. The only time this works is when you're adding new content. They aren't. They're tweaking the existing content. There only motivation for players is to bitch from a position of experience/authority. There is no reward. Unless the game was so wholly broken in current patch that it is flat out better to play experimental then there's no benefit for the players. Like many other modern concepts, Blizzard only understands early access from a fiscal point of view (Overwatch beta) and not from a development standpoint.
All other games' open testing I know of have some reward (however intangible it is). In WoW's PTR you get to face the boss and develop strategies first. In EVE online you get skill points for next testing (and not lose your assets to flybys). It shouldn't be hard for them to simply get an icon proclaiming this player participated enough in the testing. That at least entice the portrait farmers.
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i know they are old maps but my old age gets the better of me, have they been tried with legacy? i seem to remember having to box my workers?
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On November 04 2016 06:03 StatixEx wrote:
i know they are old maps but my old age gets the better of me, have they been tried with legacy? i seem to remember having to box my workers?
None of these maps were in LotV. Daybreak was in the game for the half of WoL and in HotS too, the rest was in Heart of the Swarm only.
Personally I'm not against older maps at all, if they don't work in their current state I'd be happy with versions adjusted for LotV, but having older classic maps like Lost/Shattered Temple or Metalopolis adjusted layout-wise to current SC2 is a little dream of mine.
I'm surprised they don't look into community maps more, but I'm happy that David said they're going to be more active with them in the next year (it's like 2-3 months I think). Sometimes I feel that they don't directly reach for community ideas/maps because they fear of community asking for something in exchange, some people are really touchy. Remember Galactic Process drama? Where they changed the rocks?
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20745746682
While I agree that in this case they could be in touch with the map creator to have discussion and work with him on the map and "be nice", they have final say what makes to the ladder or not after all, but fucking lol at this tweet.
And tell me how many complaints there are about the map in current state. By the way when I browse the thread it's scary that so many people are willing to theorycraft and say how bad the map is and other ridiculous things while it turned out to be fine with the changes. That's why Blizzard should be reserved with modifying the game and look for advice/suggestions among players above certain level, not among common folk which can be collectively misguided and just say stupid things
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On November 04 2016 07:09 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 06:03 StatixEx wrote:
i know they are old maps but my old age gets the better of me, have they been tried with legacy? i seem to remember having to box my workers? None of these maps were in LotV. Daybreak was in the game for the half of WoL and in HotS and the rest was in Heart of the Swarm only.
Echo was used during LotV beta. But too many things changed since then for Blizzard to draw any conclusions from that. Besides, I'm fairly confident Echo was put in pretty much exclusively because it was a strong mech map in HotS and they're trying to push mech.
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On November 04 2016 07:09 aQuaSC wrote:
Personally I'm not against older maps at all, if they don't work in their current state I'd be happy with versions adjusted for LotV, but having older classic maps like Lost/Shattered Temple or Metalopolis adjusted layout-wise to current SC2 is a little dream of mine.
I'm surprised they don't look into community maps more, but I'm happy that David said they're going to be more active with them in the next year (it's like 2-3 months I think).
you don't just adjust maps, shit just doesn't work that way.
with the extreme drought in the mapmaking scene it's amazing it isn't completely extinct by now.
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EPT
