Regardless of the situation, we will still action upon "dead game" comments. As this is a sensitive issue for SC2 fans, please do not come into this thread and talk about SC2 players switching over to BW. This thread is also not about bashing Blizzard, David Kim, or the WCS system.
So many of these pro's ONLY switched to SC2 because they were forced to by their organizations, that were strong-armed by Blizzard.
The entire duration of SC2 if you interviewed any of the players who came form BW...almost all of them, would say in an interview that they didnt even like the gameplay of SC2 and would prefer to have stuck with BW. A lot of the pro's who ended up quitting because of Sc2 went back to BW.
IMO this is the best news possible for BW and people who still like that game/genre. IMO we will see BW sort of rise from the ashes, due to Proleague dropping Sc2. These pro's arent going to just stop playing video games...most of them will revert to THE game of their upbringing.
With rumours of a BW HD coming... its actually got me kinda excited. Sc2 was a lot of poor design decisions, piled onto eachother. Blizzard couldnt even figure out what they were trying to do with the game. Half the changes were to make it more casual friendly. Half the units were put in simply to make it more difficult.
Protoss design made literally no sense... the high tech advanced race has the weakest t1 units... rely on weak gas intensive units to survive. Terran - if you ever make anything but M+M+M... you are an idiot. It literally beats any/everything.... with their 50 mineral units... mech was always a joke despite Siege Tanks being arguably THE iconic unit of the universe. Zerg - Roaches and hydras served the same general purpose... except that hydras for years were worthless. And roaches were nerfed from being too strong, to being worthless. Rush to Brood Lords for any chance at winning.
Instead of embracing EITHER audience- the hardcore competitive, or the casuals...they alienated both.
It just sucks that Blizzard went out of their way to kill a mutli-decade esport in hopes of making SC2 its replacement.
People who think this game was brought down by a single match fixer, or scandals... need to wake up and realize the problem is and always has been Blizzard, and the inherent design flaws of Sc2.
On October 18 2016 19:43 letian wrote: [quote] Why did you include BW Proleague and call it a "league"?
Because it was a league.
On October 18 2016 19:43 letian wrote: This is not correct since BW PL ended long ago and has nothing to do with SC2 PL.
The common point between BW PL and SC2 PL is : the proleague.
Should we include other sport leagues as well, because they are leagues? The common point between SC2 PL and SMITE league is: the proleague. Clearly, both games share the same universe and progamers to some extend but that's it. No, this looks like an attempt to drag BW into this and I don't like it, because SC2 was the reason why BW PL ended.
Brood War SPL Hybrid SPL YES IT HAPPENED ! SC2 SPL.
Like the Proleague is THE ONLY league that didn't get discontinued... It's the only league that got a transition. A bad one but hey.
but hey, you got a game that nobody wants to play anymore and also you got another game whose scene could be alive and kicking.
Oh i have nothing against BW. I still watch it but i was just calling you out on what you said. Like it or not this is the same league.
The point of my ramblings is nobody needed BW to SC2 transition in the first place. It would not be that bitter if SC2 turned out to be a worthy replacement, instead it stole several years from BW fans, several years of MSL, OSL and PL, it stole new champions, new talents and much more invaluable memories. (Well, to be exact not SC2 itself but Blizzard)
I see your point and largely agree with it. Forcing BW into retirement was an odd (well not from a company pov) thing to do as it was really successfull. SC2 could have worked way better if it was not enforced. I'm sure there is much more viewing on SC2 streams and tournament in foreign country because it was hard to find the streams etc... They could have left it alone and maybe it would not have gone this way.
Oh well. This is done now. We can enjoy what we have left (asl or gsl or both)
I think people vastly overestimate how healthy the BW scene was - it was already on a steady decline, probably not in terms of quality of matches but in terms of new talent and fresh faces. The whole fabled kespa infrastructure was basically a well oiled machine to cultivate talent, but in the last few years of BW barely anyone new broke into the scene. The last few OSL had dudes like Fantasy and JangBi ducking it out. Maybe Bisu and Flash were that good but in PL no other team managed to produce new players to challenge those guys. I think when the talent pool dries out the days of the scene become numbered and that was already the case with BW before the launch of sc2
Well, indeed Fantasy and Jangbi were already established "faces" but the likes of Hydra or Soulkey were really promising. Hydra even menaged to win MSL and got into semifinal of OSL.
The entire duration of SC2 if you interviewed any of the players who came form BW...almost all of them, would say in an interview that they didnt even like the gameplay of SC2 and would prefer to have stuck with BW. A lot of the pro's who ended up quitting because of Sc2 went back to BW.
not true at all. the pros who were more succesful in bw like flash, jaedong etc of course felt like this but many of the pros who are more succesful in sc2 don't feel that way. INnoVation for example said in an interview that he enjoys sc2 more.
It appears SC2 Proleague is coming to an end. The league ran from 2005-2016.
Why did you include BW Proleague and call it a "league"?
Because it was a league.
On October 18 2016 19:43 letian wrote: This is not correct since BW PL ended long ago and has nothing to do with SC2 PL.
The common point between BW PL and SC2 PL is : the proleague.
Should we include other sport leagues as well, because they are leagues? The common point between SC2 PL and SMITE league is: the proleague. Clearly, both games share the same universe and progamers to some extend but that's it. No, this looks like an attempt to drag BW into this and I don't like it, because SC2 was the reason why BW PL ended.
Brood War SPL Hybrid SPL YES IT HAPPENED ! SC2 SPL.
Like the Proleague is THE ONLY league that didn't get discontinued... It's the only league that got a transition. A bad one but hey.
but hey, you got a game that nobody wants to play anymore and also you got another game whose scene could be alive and kicking.
Oh i have nothing against BW. I still watch it but i was just calling you out on what you said. Like it or not this is the same league.
The point of my ramblings is nobody needed BW to SC2 transition in the first place. It would not be that bitter if SC2 turned out to be a worthy replacement, instead it stole several years from BW fans, several years of MSL, OSL and PL, it stole new champions, new talents and much more invaluable memories. (Well, to be exact not SC2 itself but Blizzard)
I see your point and largely agree with it. Forcing BW into retirement was an odd (well not from a company pov) thing to do as it was really successfull. SC2 could have worked way better if it was not enforced. I'm sure there is much more viewing on SC2 streams and tournament in foreign country because it was hard to find the streams etc... They could have left it alone and maybe it would not have gone this way.
Oh well. This is done now. We can enjoy what we have left (asl or gsl or both)
I think people vastly overestimate how healthy the BW scene was - it was already on a steady decline, probably not in terms of quality of matches but in terms of new talent and fresh faces. The whole fabled kespa infrastructure was basically a well oiled machine to cultivate talent, but in the last few years of BW barely anyone new broke into the scene. The last few OSL had dudes like Fantasy and JangBi ducking it out. Maybe Bisu and Flash were that good but in PL no other team managed to produce new players to challenge those guys. I think when the talent pool dries out the days of the scene become numbered and that was already the case with BW before the launch of sc2
This is just hypothesizing without actual numbers. But I can admit that after more than 10 years the game started getting rusty. Maybe because people were getting older, maybe the skill cap was too high for younger players to catch up, maybe successful MOBA games were taking away the potential viewers and talents. In truth, we all understand that the game industry and the average gamer changed and what used to be a great game 10 years ago is not as great anymore. The user perception of fun gaming has changed unfortunately in the direction of oversimplification, accessibility and "easy-play". This tendency plagues the whole industry of entertainment. However, what it has to do with forced transition to SC2? You sound like you attempt to justify it by saying that BW was doomed to decline which is arguable in the first place.
I want everybody to be clear. Nobody wanted the transition and we all felt what was coming but tried to be positive while the numbers kept dwindling. If not for enormous amount of cash poured into the scene, it would have been over much earlier. Truly good games don't need sponsors and fake hype, they rise from the deathbed right under your nose on the right side of the web page.
So Proleague and pretty much all the S-A tier players got dumped. In some bizarre screwed up way the Korean players who managed to get themselves onto foreign teams made the right call.
Short of Blizzard undoing some of the restrictive region locking some of the greatest players to have touched the game will go into early retirement. Really sucks for the young bucks who's finally achieved their potential and the old guards who recovered their form.
Excellent news. Now these players are free to switch over to BW or otherwise move on with their lives instead of being stuck playing a game that they don't enjoy.
People who think this game was brought down by a single match fixer, or scandals... need to wake up and realize the problem is and always has been Blizzard, and the inherent design flaws of Sc2.
A tough call, but there have been a lot of great articles dissecting every single aspect of BW and what made it a great game. The gaming reality has changed though and what we consider a good game might not be good for the majority of younger players anymore. I wouldn't say that SC2 is flawed, it is still a good RTS and if not for BW probably the most successful ever. It is the unfulfilled expectations that hurt most, nobody would bash on SC2 here if it could give you the same amount of enjoyment and a believable world.
On October 19 2016 06:31 MaestroSC wrote: People who think this game was brought down by a single match fixer, or scandals... need to wake up and realize the problem is and always has been Blizzard, and the inherent design flaws of Sc2.
When BW matchmaking scandal happened, three teams disbanded. You're vastly underestimating the impact of matchfixing.
Stop trying to make it look like Blizzard has no idea how to design an RTS or fun game. It's neither a constructive argument nor do you have much to back this claim up.
Of course it's not brought down by a single match fixer. As with everything in this world, it's a combination of things. Looking to put the blame on one entity is completely the wrong approach.
no doubt, match fixing issues hastened its demise. however, the entire RTS genre is not aging well. a great many genres do not age well. None of that has to do with Blizzard. Consumer tastes are shifting away from RTS. RTS still has some life in it... but the glory days are over.
On October 19 2016 04:15 Frata wrote: Speaking only from my own experience, I've had a lot of trouble finding the time (or desire) to watch SC2 since LotV mostly because I just have a lot more 'stuff' going on in my life. I started my religious fandom in early 2011, when I was out of college but didn't really have a serious "career". Now I do, and I also got a serious girlfriend and I am now engaged.
The time I spend on 'gaming' in general has significantly decreased, and SC2 used to hold an over-sized portion of that time (I was a paid subscriber to GSL for 2 years, watched virtually every tournament).
Of course this goes hand in hand with the (lack) of ability to bring in new viewers, but I think my circumstances might be similar to others... in that a large bulk of rabid SC2 fans 'aged' out over the years in that they have less time to actually be involved in the scene.
I'm really sad about this news, and sad thinking that we might never have the big stars, the big venues and stages that we did in 2012-2014 again. But I know I am also part of the 'problem' in that I stopped making time for SC2 in my life even though I still feel really passionate about it.
I can relate a lot to this. Back in 2012-2013, I watched every game of every tournament (more or less). Now I can't even find the time to watch GSL consistently.
At hots launch it sc2 was still a popular game. By the time Lotv came around it was a dead game. So many bad design choices and lack of balls to redesign the foundations of the game. Blizzard needs to learn game design is waay more important than balance.
Blizzard needs to make co-op the face of sc2 now, because it is waay more popular than multiplayer.
On October 19 2016 07:25 Highways wrote: It was heart of the swarm that killed sc2 imo.
At hots launch it sc2 was still a popular game. By the time Lotv came around it was a dead game. So many bad design choices and lack of balls to redesign the foundations of the game. Blizzard needs to learn game design is waay more important than balance.
Blizzard needs to make co-op the face of sc2 now, because it is waay more popular than multiplayer.
if 5 other RTS games were far more successful Blizzard could hire some of the people and imitate their success. that's not the case. there is no one to imitate. its funny how Blizzard is great at designing every game they make.. except the game that is in a genre in steep decline for 10 years..umm ya ok.
Blizzard maximized what Brood War, WC3, and SC2 could became. No other company came within 5% of Blizzard's success with the RTS genre. it was a great run.. and there are still some fun times to be had. It just won't be on the same scale. for example, i've got a big automated tournament coming up! ! !
I wouldn't say Blizzard made SC2 as great as it could be. There is little denying BL/infestor, blinkfest and SH eras were harmful for the game and you would have a hard time convincing me any of the units introduced in HotS and LotV were needed -most of the additions were straight harmful if you ask me, to the point where I'm contemplating creating a mod with WoL set of units and all the changes that make sense and stood the test of time (4 range phoenix, projectile fungal, lotv warpgate change... with some twists of my own like FFs with hitpoints).
Nevertheless, I agree that the korean scene collapsing is 99.9% not Blizzard's fault. It was structurally not viable, simply not sustainable ; even abroad the RTS genre is not healthy overall : it's just not what people want to play atm.
On October 19 2016 07:25 Highways wrote: It was heart of the swarm that killed sc2 imo.
At hots launch it sc2 was still a popular game. By the time Lotv came around it was a dead game. So many bad design choices and lack of balls to redesign the foundations of the game. Blizzard needs to learn game design is waay more important than balance.
Blizzard needs to make co-op the face of sc2 now, because it is waay more popular than multiplayer.
if 5 other RTS games were far more successful Blizzard could hire some of the people and imitate their success. that's not the case. there is no one to imitate. its funny how Blizzard is great at designing every game they make.. except the game that is in a genre in steep decline for 10 years..umm ya ok.
Why would blizzard have to look at other people's games when they've single-handedly put the RTS genre on the map and with it played a major role in the birth of eSports. There is essentially ZERO competition for warcraft 3, brood war and sc2.
Yes, Diablo 3 and heroes of the storm were such great games And it's not like WOW lost a significant amount of subscribers during particular expansions, right?
please keep in mind that it took Blizzard 1.5 years to nail down the balance of Brood War. until it was balanced it was a rocky road. tastey like the ice cream.. but difficult to drive on. remember DT rushes early in Brood War?
no diverse race 3+ race RTS has ever been released in a balanced state. it always takes a while for the best players at unimaginably high APMs to test the limits of what the game can do before a proper balance is achieved. until the balance is attained stuff will go bad.
On October 19 2016 07:25 Highways wrote: It was heart of the swarm that killed sc2 imo.
At hots launch it sc2 was still a popular game. By the time Lotv came around it was a dead game. So many bad design choices and lack of balls to redesign the foundations of the game. Blizzard needs to learn game design is waay more important than balance.
Blizzard needs to make co-op the face of sc2 now, because it is waay more popular than multiplayer.
if 5 other RTS games were far more successful Blizzard could hire some of the people and imitate their success. that's not the case. there is no one to imitate. its funny how Blizzard is great at designing every game they make.. except the game that is in a genre in steep decline for 10 years..umm ya ok.
Blizzard maximized what Brood War, WC3, and SC2 could became. No other company came within 5% of Blizzard's success with the RTS genre. it was a great run.. and there are still some fun times to be had. It just won't be on the same scale. for example, i've got a big automated tournament coming up! ! !
if blizzard attacked bw scene it didn't maximize what it could have become. lol it's awful reading this guy's posts its so shortsighted he just selects information to white knight for blizzard all the time atrocious posting tbh, very dishonest guy
On October 19 2016 07:25 Highways wrote: It was heart of the swarm that killed sc2 imo.
At hots launch it sc2 was still a popular game. By the time Lotv came around it was a dead game. So many bad design choices and lack of balls to redesign the foundations of the game. Blizzard needs to learn game design is waay more important than balance.
Blizzard needs to make co-op the face of sc2 now, because it is waay more popular than multiplayer.
if 5 other RTS games were far more successful Blizzard could hire some of the people and imitate their success. that's not the case. there is no one to imitate. its funny how Blizzard is great at designing every game they make.. except the game that is in a genre in steep decline for 10 years..umm ya ok.
Why would blizzard have to look at other people's games when they've single-handedly put the RTS genre on the map and with it played a major role in the birth of eSports. There is essentially ZERO competition for warcraft 3, brood war and sc2.
Yes, Diablo 3 and heroes of the storm were such great games And it's not like WOW lost a significant amount of subscribers during particular expansions, right?
exactly, it's almost as if he posts this stuff so that people who don't know about other stuff would dismiss the criticism, like paid forum posters. don't rly think he's actually paid but damn his robotic rethoric is so dumb
EPT
