Regardless of the situation, we will still action upon "dead game" comments. As this is a sensitive issue for SC2 fans, please do not come into this thread and talk about SC2 players switching over to BW. This thread is also not about bashing Blizzard, David Kim, or the WCS system.
This thread is also not about bashing Blizzard, David Kim, or the WCS system.
Well I think this is not the right attitude anymore, being politically correct is what has brought us to this point. I loved sc2 until LOTV, Blizzard has been reckless and has not managed things right. If the boat is going down, I think we should at least try to name who is responsible for it.
You keep saying this, over and over, and it is poor analysis because it isn't qualitative (or quantitative for that matter unless you have some figures): you're not looking at the quality of SC2 as a game. Look at the game design decisions and understanding that SC2 violates many game design principles, especially modern principles that have made League so popular.
Maybe as a game designer I see this more clearly, but check this out:
Power Without Gameplay This is when we give a big benefit in a way that players don't find satisfying or don't notice. The classic example of this is team benefit Auras. In general, other players don't value the aura you give them very much, and you don't value it much either -- even though auras can win games. As a REALLY general example, I would say that players value a +50 armor aura only about twice as much as a +10 armor aura... Even though +50 is 5x better. Another example would be comparing a +10 damage aura to a skill that every 10 seconds gives flaming weapons that make +30 damage to all teammates next attack (with fire and explosions!). I am pretty sure that most players are WAY more excited about the fiery weapons buff, even though the strength is lower overall.
The problem with using a "power without gameplay" mechanic is that you tend to have to 'over-buff' the mechanic and create a game balance problem before people appreciate it. As a result, we tend to keep Auras weak, and/or avoid them altogether, and/or pair them on an active/passive where the active is very strong and satisfying, so that the passive is more strategic around character choice. For example, Sona's auras are all quite weak -- because at weak values they ARE appreciated properly.
Is there any better example of an overbuffed power without gameplay mechanic than pylon overcharge? Literally press F and click on pylons to hold off early timings. Is it satisfying for Protoss, makes the player feel skilled? Not at all. Is it overbuffed? Most certainly.
Read through the rest of the anti-design patterns and you'll begin to realize how SC2 fell off a cliff.
People play good games and good games are well designed. Sc2 is poorly designed.
Name a more successful RTS then.
Easy! Brood War.
Hence, why BW is doing amazing in Korea and GROWING. While SC2 is dying.
I don't understand how anyone could convince themselves of the logic that "RTS is dead", when BW is growing...
SC2's failings are completely due to their own decisions. There has been more than DOZENS (hundreds?) of questionable decisions Blizzard has made with SC2.
Did you not see the big warning at the top of the page? No one wants to read this here and it's not what this thread is about. Some of us like SC2 and are upset about it.
Actually I didn't. So I went through and edited my post a bit.
BTW, it's not that I don't like SC2. I just don't like that Blizzard has made so many bad/questionable decisions that it has come to this. They should have woken up a long time ago.
Watching what has been happening to SC2 the last few years has been so damn stressful. It sucks that its coming to this.
I find it hard to believe that people are blaming the design choices of LoTV over incidents like match fixing from Life. It feels like the community just ignored that even happened, meanwhile the SC1 community is still very fervent over the match fixing from 7 years ago. The impact match fixing has on sponsors and business is huge.
This thread is also not about bashing Blizzard, David Kim, or the WCS system.
Well I think this is not the right attitude anymore, being politically correct is what has brought us to this point. I loved sc2 until LOTV, Blizzard has been reckless and has not managed things right. If the boat is going down, I think we should at least try to name who is responsible for it.
David Kim is incompetent, period.
because all the other RTS games are still going strong and only SC2 is suffering because of DKs incompetence? RTS games just aren't popular anymore, has nothing to do with David Kim. without that guy the RTS scene would have been dead long ago.
On October 19 2016 04:09 BisuDagger wrote: I find it hard to believe that people are blaming the design choices of LoTV over incidents like match fixing from Life. It feels like the community just ignored that even happened, meanwhile the SC1 community is still very fervent over the match fixing from 7 years ago. The impact match fixing has on sponsors and business is huge.
The truth is that there are a lot of reasons and everyone who only blaims one specific thing is wrong. What's the biggest factor? Who knows.
On October 19 2016 04:09 BisuDagger wrote: I find it hard to believe that people are blaming the design choices of LoTV over incidents like match fixing from Life. It feels like the community just ignored that even happened, meanwhile the SC1 community is still very fervent over the match fixing from 7 years ago. The impact match fixing has on sponsors and business is huge.
The truth is that there are a lot of reasons and everyone who only blaims one specific thing is wrong. What's the biggest factor? Who knows.
Yeah, pretty much all we can do right now is be sad until Idra reboots the ESF as its director and brings back metropolis.
People who could have had a career in this game have been fucked over many times. YES maybe RTS were not going to be the norm in a MOBA dominated market, but there was still a small sustainable market for it. What we saw when LOTV came out is that many players just quit because they did not like the new expansion. Blizzard cant force others to play a game they dont want to play, and they should have some responsibility towards those that were living thanks to sc2. Good Job Blizzard, good job WCS and good job ourselves for letting this happen.
Speaking only from my own experience, I've had a lot of trouble finding the time (or desire) to watch SC2 since LotV mostly because I just have a lot more 'stuff' going on in my life. I started my religious fandom in early 2011, when I was out of college but didn't really have a serious "career". Now I do, and I also got a serious girlfriend and I am now engaged.
The time I spend on 'gaming' in general has significantly decreased, and SC2 used to hold an over-sized portion of that time (I was a paid subscriber to GSL for 2 years, watched virtually every tournament).
Of course this goes hand in hand with the (lack) of ability to bring in new viewers, but I think my circumstances might be similar to others... in that a large bulk of rabid SC2 fans 'aged' out over the years in that they have less time to actually be involved in the scene.
I'm really sad about this news, and sad thinking that we might never have the big stars, the big venues and stages that we did in 2012-2014 again. But I know I am also part of the 'problem' in that I stopped making time for SC2 in my life even though I still feel really passionate about it.
well i think that theonly thing we can do is move on , if the game will be palyed there for sure raise new teams... we got pack of other great changes comeing at end of the year if these players dont retire ( from dibanded teams) i think they can find new house soon enaugh
You keep saying this, over and over, and it is poor analysis because it isn't qualitative (or quantitative for that matter unless you have some figures): you're not looking at the quality of SC2 as a game. Look at the game design decisions and understanding that SC2 violates many game design principles, especially modern principles that have made League so popular.
Maybe as a game designer I see this more clearly, but check this out:
Power Without Gameplay This is when we give a big benefit in a way that players don't find satisfying or don't notice. The classic example of this is team benefit Auras. In general, other players don't value the aura you give them very much, and you don't value it much either -- even though auras can win games. As a REALLY general example, I would say that players value a +50 armor aura only about twice as much as a +10 armor aura... Even though +50 is 5x better. Another example would be comparing a +10 damage aura to a skill that every 10 seconds gives flaming weapons that make +30 damage to all teammates next attack (with fire and explosions!). I am pretty sure that most players are WAY more excited about the fiery weapons buff, even though the strength is lower overall.
The problem with using a "power without gameplay" mechanic is that you tend to have to 'over-buff' the mechanic and create a game balance problem before people appreciate it. As a result, we tend to keep Auras weak, and/or avoid them altogether, and/or pair them on an active/passive where the active is very strong and satisfying, so that the passive is more strategic around character choice. For example, Sona's auras are all quite weak -- because at weak values they ARE appreciated properly.
Is there any better example of an overbuffed power without gameplay mechanic than pylon overcharge? Literally press F and click on pylons to hold off early timings. Is it satisfying for Protoss, makes the player feel skilled? Not at all. Is it overbuffed? Most certainly.
Read through the rest of the anti-design patterns and you'll begin to realize how SC2 fell off a cliff.
People play good games and good games are well designed. Sc2 is poorly designed.
Name a more successful RTS then.
Easy! Brood War.
Hence, why BW is doing amazing in Korea and GROWING. While SC2 is dying.
I don't understand how anyone could convince themselves of the logic that "RTS is dead", when BW is growing...
SC2's failings are completely due to their own decisions. There has been more than DOZENS (hundreds?) of questionable decisions Blizzard has made with SC2.
SC2's design was never praised in most areas. It's nearly unanimous that things liike economy, multitasking, pathing, etc - were better executed for a successful tournament RTS in BW.
Blizzards eSport decisions have caused the game to suffer, as well as caused BW to suffer.
Yet as much as Blizzard screwed BW (intentionally) to try to get player to move to SC2, BW STILL SURVIVED.
If RTS games are dead, then as much as they tried to kill BW, BW would have been dead too. But it's doing BETTER than SC2. Even though it's had no support and been screwed in the ass by Blizz.
Good RTS are still alive almost 20 years later, against all odds. It's poorly designed RTS like SC2 that are dead in a fraction of that time.
It seems fairly absurd to claim that the game is growing, are you telling me that if I went back 5, 10 or 15 years more people are playing today than there were then? The game has always held a strong following in Korea, but this doesn't mean that the RTS genre hasn't declined massively.
StarCraft2 has found a lot of success this year with COOP/DLC, while I guess it depends on what exactly your criteria for success is I don't see any reason to think that Brood War is an example of a more successful RTS game in 2016. You can argue it's a better game, but that's not really the point.
10 years? That's hard to say. It was around sc2 announcement and activity went up a bit around than until release.
But 5 years ago? For sure its higher now! 5 years ago was after Blizz started going in high gear to get sc2 on tv in place of bw. Players were forced to switch. So BW activity went down. Sc2 passed BW in activity for years.
But check the Korean leader boards. For at least the last year, consecutively sc2 has went down. BW started moving up. SC2 was fighting for 30th place last I checked. BW was top 5.
And your right, it depends on what you are measuring. Lotv basically supports coop more than anything else now.
But if we are talking purely as a competitive game, that's where BW has shined, and sc2 has had the hardest time making a strong reception.
I don't want to get banned, so I want to say that I read the warning up top and will proceed to follow through with what it asks. But really though. Part of me just wants to scream as loud as I can in frustration. Like... Just scream.
On October 19 2016 04:14 Espartaquen wrote: People who could have had a career in this game have been fucked over many times. YES maybe RTS were not going to be the norm in a MOBA dominated market, but there was still a small sustainable market for it. What we saw when LOTV came out is that many players just quit because they did not like the new expansion. Blizzard cant force others to play a game they dont want to play, and they should have some responsibility towards those that were living thanks to sc2. Good Job Blizzard, good job WCS and good job ourselves for letting this happen.
who quit the game because they didn't like the game? in fact the opposite happened, players like Nerchio and many others specifically said that they are now more motivated because the game is more fun than ever.
On October 19 2016 04:09 BisuDagger wrote: I find it hard to believe that people are blaming the design choices of LoTV over incidents like match fixing from Life. It feels like the community just ignored that even happened, meanwhile the SC1 community is still very fervent over the match fixing from 7 years ago. The impact match fixing has on sponsors and business is huge.
This.
It's what ultimately killed BW Proleague (not the switch to SC2) because all the sponsors started backing out and wanted a fresh start.
This thread is also not about bashing Blizzard, David Kim, or the WCS system.
Well I think this is not the right attitude anymore, being politically correct is what has brought us to this point. I loved sc2 until LOTV, Blizzard has been reckless and has not managed things right. If the boat is going down, I think we should at least try to name who is responsible for it.
David Kim is incompetent, period.
User was warned for this post
What a useful post (sarcasm). I truly believe his (including his balance team) methods of balancing is what any company would try to do. What I mean by that is you act upon wide and extensive statistical data that is being compiled by blizzard to identify problems, then you propose solutions, test it internally and then implement it if they work out. Except they even added another step which is to look for community opinions (which they DON'T HAVE TO DO) and provide test map for additionnal data. If you guys (aimed at whiners who think they'd do better / differently) think you'd have a more thorough approach to balance a massive RTS game, you're dillusionnal.
I do not suggest I agree with all the actually/previously proposed changes, but these guys have to balance a game where the skill levels vary a lot and for a huge player base. Give them a break. And please, if you're too immature to have a sensible and articulate discussion, don't post on these forums. Shitposting is really getting old and nobody needs it...
On October 19 2016 04:14 Espartaquen wrote: People who could have had a career in this game have been fucked over many times. YES maybe RTS were not going to be the norm in a MOBA dominated market, but there was still a small sustainable market for it. What we saw when LOTV came out is that many players just quit because they did not like the new expansion. Blizzard cant force others to play a game they dont want to play, and they should have some responsibility towards those that were living thanks to sc2. Good Job Blizzard, good job WCS and good job ourselves for letting this happen.
who quit the game because they didn't like the game? in fact the opposite happened, players like Nerchio and many others specifially said that they are now more motivated because the game is more fun than ever.
The issue is not the players, its not the game, its Blizz.
The issue is that the game has cheap fans that never, EVER, wants to put their money where their mouth is. God I fucking hate this culture sometimes. If people don't make money off of this game, this game won't be supported--period.
EPT
