Regardless of the situation, we will still action upon "dead game" comments. As this is a sensitive issue for SC2 fans, please do not come into this thread and talk about SC2 players switching over to BW. This thread is also not about bashing Blizzard, David Kim, or the WCS system.
On October 19 2016 01:01 MaCRo.gg wrote: Why aren't we allowed to discuss Welfare Champion Series? How did that decision not have a profound impact on this KeSPA decision? Why must Liquid be pro Welfare regardless of the damage it does to SC2?
Because it didn't that much Do you not understand that KOREAN sponsors looking for KOREAN audience to advertise to have little interest in global advertisement if they don't have any global presence/assets? Sc2 interest was dwindling with all the new more popular releases. Hell, BW has more than 3 times the player than sc2 even now. Bw has more viewers on afreeca than sc2 will dream of. Sc2 never hit top 15. Bw consistently is top 5 pc bang behind overwatch, league, fifa online 3 (FO3 being casual b8)
Combine that with matchfixing scandal and very low vieweeship, it makes absolutely 0 sense to continue on. Probably with matchfixing scandal, kespa teams decided to be done for good
Welfare league only affects those who are looking to make extra bucks. The individuals.
Do you not realize this? Stop the shitposting.
ROFL Banning Korean players from participating in ANYTHING outside of Korea wasn't a factor in KeSPA dropping SC2? Welfare killing viewership had no effect on the Korean scene? Forcing early Korean player retirements of many fan favorites had NO EFFECT?
No doubt SC2 was dying and Korean interest in SC2 practically dead, but clearly xenophobia had a factor in killing Proleague.
How did WCS kill the viewership of Pro-league, explain me that? Those things are entirely unrelated. As stated numerous times before, foreign viewership has no relation to Korean sponsorships. SKT, KT, Jin Air, ... don't give a rats ass about sponsoring things that don't bring Korean viewers because those are literally their entire market. They don't sell things to people outside of South-Korea. The problem is Korean tournaments not drawing enough Korean viewers. WCS has nothing to do with that. A shifting esports landscape and match fixing scandals do.
Xenophobia? Jezus fucking Christ. Are you grasping or what?
You keep saying this, over and over, and it is poor analysis because it isn't qualitative (or quantitative for that matter unless you have some figures): you're not looking at the quality of SC2 as a game. Look at the game design decisions and understanding that SC2 violates many game design principles, especially modern principles that have made League so popular.
Maybe as a game designer I see this more clearly, but check this out:
Power Without Gameplay This is when we give a big benefit in a way that players don't find satisfying or don't notice. The classic example of this is team benefit Auras. In general, other players don't value the aura you give them very much, and you don't value it much either -- even though auras can win games. As a REALLY general example, I would say that players value a +50 armor aura only about twice as much as a +10 armor aura... Even though +50 is 5x better. Another example would be comparing a +10 damage aura to a skill that every 10 seconds gives flaming weapons that make +30 damage to all teammates next attack (with fire and explosions!). I am pretty sure that most players are WAY more excited about the fiery weapons buff, even though the strength is lower overall.
The problem with using a "power without gameplay" mechanic is that you tend to have to 'over-buff' the mechanic and create a game balance problem before people appreciate it. As a result, we tend to keep Auras weak, and/or avoid them altogether, and/or pair them on an active/passive where the active is very strong and satisfying, so that the passive is more strategic around character choice. For example, Sona's auras are all quite weak -- because at weak values they ARE appreciated properly.
Is there any better example of an overbuffed power without gameplay mechanic than pylon overcharge? Literally press F and click on pylons to hold off early timings. Is it satisfying for Protoss, makes the player feel skilled? Not at all. Is it overbuffed? Most certainly.
It appears SC2 Proleague is coming to an end. The league ran from 2005-2016.
Why did you include BW Proleague and call it a "league"?
Because it was a league.
On October 18 2016 19:43 letian wrote: This is not correct since BW PL ended long ago and has nothing to do with SC2 PL.
The common point between BW PL and SC2 PL is : the proleague.
Should we include other sport leagues as well, because they are leagues? The common point between SC2 PL and SMITE league is: the proleague. Clearly, both games share the same universe and progamers to some extend but that's it. No, this looks like an attempt to drag BW into this and I don't like it, because SC2 was the reason why BW PL ended.
Brood War SPL Hybrid SPL YES IT HAPPENED ! SC2 SPL.
Like the Proleague is THE ONLY league that didn't get discontinued... It's the only league that got a transition. A bad one but hey.
but hey, you got a game that nobody wants to play anymore and also you got another game whose scene could be alive and kicking.
Oh i have nothing against BW. I still watch it but i was just calling you out on what you said. Like it or not this is the same league.
The point of my ramblings is nobody needed BW to SC2 transition in the first place. It would not be that bitter if SC2 turned out to be a worthy replacement, instead it stole several years from BW fans, several years of MSL, OSL and PL, it stole new champions, new talents and much more invaluable memories. (Well, to be exact not SC2 itself but Blizzard)
On October 19 2016 01:01 MaCRo.gg wrote: Why aren't we allowed to discuss Welfare Champion Series? How did that decision not have a profound impact on this KeSPA decision? Why must Liquid be pro Welfare regardless of the damage it does to SC2?
Because it didn't that much Do you not understand that KOREAN sponsors looking for KOREAN audience to advertise to have little interest in global advertisement if they don't have any global presence/assets? Sc2 interest was dwindling with all the new more popular releases. Hell, BW has more than 3 times the player than sc2 even now. Bw has more viewers on afreeca than sc2 will dream of. Sc2 never hit top 15. Bw consistently is top 5 pc bang behind overwatch, league, fifa online 3 (FO3 being casual b8)
Combine that with matchfixing scandal and very low vieweeship, it makes absolutely 0 sense to continue on. Probably with matchfixing scandal, kespa teams decided to be done for good
Welfare league only affects those who are looking to make extra bucks. The individuals.
Do you not realize this? Stop the shitposting.
ROFL Banning Korean players from participating in ANYTHING outside of Korea wasn't a factor in KeSPA dropping SC2? Welfare killing viewership had no effect on the Korean scene? Forcing early Korean player retirements of many fan favorites had NO EFFECT?
No doubt SC2 was dying and Korean interest in SC2 practically dead, but clearly xenophobia had a factor in killing Proleague.
How did WCS kill the viewership of Pro-league, explain me that? Those things are entirely unrelated. As stated numerous times before, foreign viewership has no relation to Korean sponsorships. SKT, KT, Jin Air, ... don't give a rats ass about sponsoring things that don't bring Korean viewers because those are literally their entire market. They don't sell things to people outside of South-Korea. The problem is Korean tournaments not drawing enough Korean viewers. WCS has nothing to do with that. A shifting esports landscape and match fixing scandals do.
Xenophobia? Jezus fucking Christ. Are you grasping or what?
Xenophobia is a soft term it is most definitely RACISM. How can you sit there and declare that WCS had NO EFFECT when tons of Korean pros were forced to retire because the WCS banned ONLY KOREANS from participating in over half the tournaments?
On October 19 2016 01:01 MaCRo.gg wrote: Why aren't we allowed to discuss Welfare Champion Series? How did that decision not have a profound impact on this KeSPA decision? Why must Liquid be pro Welfare regardless of the damage it does to SC2?
Because it didn't that much Do you not understand that KOREAN sponsors looking for KOREAN audience to advertise to have little interest in global advertisement if they don't have any global presence/assets? Sc2 interest was dwindling with all the new more popular releases. Hell, BW has more than 3 times the player than sc2 even now. Bw has more viewers on afreeca than sc2 will dream of. Sc2 never hit top 15. Bw consistently is top 5 pc bang behind overwatch, league, fifa online 3 (FO3 being casual b8)
Combine that with matchfixing scandal and very low vieweeship, it makes absolutely 0 sense to continue on. Probably with matchfixing scandal, kespa teams decided to be done for good
Welfare league only affects those who are looking to make extra bucks. The individuals.
Do you not realize this? Stop the shitposting.
ROFL Banning Korean players from participating in ANYTHING outside of Korea wasn't a factor in KeSPA dropping SC2? Welfare killing viewership had no effect on the Korean scene? Forcing early Korean player retirements of many fan favorites had NO EFFECT?
No doubt SC2 was dying and Korean interest in SC2 practically dead, but clearly xenophobia had a factor in killing Proleague.
How did WCS kill the viewership of Pro-league, explain me that? Those things are entirely unrelated. As stated numerous times before, foreign viewership has no relation to Korean sponsorships. SKT, KT, Jin Air, ... don't give a rats ass about sponsoring things that don't bring Korean viewers because those are literally their entire market. They don't sell things to people outside of South-Korea. The problem is Korean tournaments not drawing enough Korean viewers. WCS has nothing to do with that. A shifting esports landscape and match fixing scandals do.
Xenophobia? Jezus fucking Christ. Are you grasping or what?
Xenophobia is a soft term it is most definitely RACISM. How can you sit there and declare that WCS had NO EFFECT when tons of Korean pros were forced to retire because the WCS banned ONLY KOREANS from participating in over half the tournaments?
And this has what to do with proleague and Korean viewership exactly?
You keep saying this, over and over, and it is poor analysis because it isn't qualitative (or quantitative for that matter unless you have some figures): you're not looking at the quality of SC2 as a game. Look at the game design decisions and understanding that SC2 violates many game design principles, especially modern principles that have made League so popular.
Maybe as a game designer I see this more clearly, but check this out:
Power Without Gameplay This is when we give a big benefit in a way that players don't find satisfying or don't notice. The classic example of this is team benefit Auras. In general, other players don't value the aura you give them very much, and you don't value it much either -- even though auras can win games. As a REALLY general example, I would say that players value a +50 armor aura only about twice as much as a +10 armor aura... Even though +50 is 5x better. Another example would be comparing a +10 damage aura to a skill that every 10 seconds gives flaming weapons that make +30 damage to all teammates next attack (with fire and explosions!). I am pretty sure that most players are WAY more excited about the fiery weapons buff, even though the strength is lower overall.
The problem with using a "power without gameplay" mechanic is that you tend to have to 'over-buff' the mechanic and create a game balance problem before people appreciate it. As a result, we tend to keep Auras weak, and/or avoid them altogether, and/or pair them on an active/passive where the active is very strong and satisfying, so that the passive is more strategic around character choice. For example, Sona's auras are all quite weak -- because at weak values they ARE appreciated properly.
Is there any better example of an overbuffed power without gameplay mechanic than pylon overcharge? Literally press F and click on pylons to hold off early timings. Is it satisfying for Protoss, makes the player feel skilled? Not at all. Is it overbuffed? Most certainly.
Read through the rest of the anti-design patterns and you'll begin to realize how SC2 fell off a cliff.
People play good games and good games are well designed. Sc2 is poorly designed.
Name a more successful RTS then.
Easy! Brood War.
Hence, why BW is doing amazing in Korea and GROWING. While SC2 is suffering.
I don't understand how anyone could convince themselves of the logic that "RTS is dead", when BW is growing...
SC2's failings are completely due to their own decisions. There has been more than DOZENS (hundreds?) of questionable decisions Blizzard has made with SC2.
SC2's design was never praised in most areas. It's nearly unanimous that things liike economy, multitasking, pathing, etc - were better executed for a successful tournament RTS in BW.
Blizzards eSport decisions have caused the game to suffer, as well as caused BW to suffer.
Yet as much as Blizzard screwed BW (intentionally) to try to get player to move to SC2, BW STILL SURVIVED.
If RTS games are dead, then as much as they tried to kill BW, BW would have been dead too. But it's doing BETTER than SC2. Even though it's had no support and been screwed in the ass by Blizz.
Good RTS are still alive almost 20 years later, against all odds. It's poorly designed RTS like SC2 that are suffering in a fraction of that time.
Let's be real and look at what really happened. People have been disappointed with SC2 since the beginning. Not even WoL, but WoL beta. Many players didn't even want to switch to SC2, but it was forced. Blizzard then distanced themselves further from BW, and what players wanted.
Each consecutive release, some ppl still defended SC2, and said how "people been begging for changes in SC2 since WoL". The big names have been trickling out. Things have been falling apart.
Now it's seen in front of us. But now people are saying its because RTS is dead???
To claim RTS is dead, is to dismiss everything that happened with SC2 since it came out. SC2 did well because of the name. Not because of the gameplay. SC2 wasn't a "breath of fresh air in the RTS genre". It wasn't the big revival of RTS. It didn't innovate RTS gaming.
The truth is, SC2 was Blizzards attempt to try to FORCE the eSport genre in the direction they wanted, and it failed at achieving what BW did (when BW wasnt even intended as a eSport). It took what was one of (if not the top) tournament games at the time (BW) and ran it in to the ground, and never sufficiently replaced it. It dethroned the #1 RTS, not because it's a better game, but because Blizzard used their media rights and tournament rules to force BW out of the scene.
BW was synonymous with RTS. BW got replaced. But BW never died.
SC2 was forced in.
RTS is not dead. BW would have been long gone if it was RTS that was the problem. But it's not (and never was). Blizzards handling of SC2 was the problem. They did more harm to the RTS genre than anything else, without a doubt. Despite all that, BW survived. Just look at the numbers in Korea, you couldn't really argue it for years, although people still defended SC2. The statistics have shown it all along, though.
As strange as it sounds, RTS might have a chance to succeed again after this. Because they might finally see that they need to make some major changes are start caring about what players think.
So gutted reading about this. I hope the SC2 players left in the lurch of the teams disbanding have got other opportunities lined up. Best of luck to them <3.
On October 19 2016 01:01 MaCRo.gg wrote: Why aren't we allowed to discuss Welfare Champion Series? How did that decision not have a profound impact on this KeSPA decision? Why must Liquid be pro Welfare regardless of the damage it does to SC2?
Because it didn't that much Do you not understand that KOREAN sponsors looking for KOREAN audience to advertise to have little interest in global advertisement if they don't have any global presence/assets? Sc2 interest was dwindling with all the new more popular releases. Hell, BW has more than 3 times the player than sc2 even now. Bw has more viewers on afreeca than sc2 will dream of. Sc2 never hit top 15. Bw consistently is top 5 pc bang behind overwatch, league, fifa online 3 (FO3 being casual b8)
Combine that with matchfixing scandal and very low vieweeship, it makes absolutely 0 sense to continue on. Probably with matchfixing scandal, kespa teams decided to be done for good
Welfare league only affects those who are looking to make extra bucks. The individuals.
Do you not realize this? Stop the shitposting.
ROFL Banning Korean players from participating in ANYTHING outside of Korea wasn't a factor in KeSPA dropping SC2? Welfare killing viewership had no effect on the Korean scene? Forcing early Korean player retirements of many fan favorites had NO EFFECT?
No doubt SC2 was dying and Korean interest in SC2 practically dead, but clearly xenophobia had a factor in killing Proleague.
How did WCS kill the viewership of Pro-league, explain me that? Those things are entirely unrelated. As stated numerous times before, foreign viewership has no relation to Korean sponsorships. SKT, KT, Jin Air, ... don't give a rats ass about sponsoring things that don't bring Korean viewers because those are literally their entire market. They don't sell things to people outside of South-Korea. The problem is Korean tournaments not drawing enough Korean viewers. WCS has nothing to do with that. A shifting esports landscape and match fixing scandals do.
Xenophobia? Jezus fucking Christ. Are you grasping or what?
Xenophobia is a soft term it is most definitely RACISM. How can you sit there and declare that WCS had NO EFFECT when tons of Korean pros were forced to retire because the WCS banned ONLY KOREANS from participating in over half the tournaments?
You are an idiot if you think individual income affected the overall KOREAN viewership Maybe, sure in a stretch (big stretch since players like life was being paid enough) it applies to matchfixing scandal that hastened the shutdown of kespa team by few months, but the fact remains that Korean sc2 vieweeship was abysmal
You keep saying this, over and over, and it is poor analysis because it isn't qualitative (or quantitative for that matter unless you have some figures): you're not looking at the quality of SC2 as a game. Look at the game design decisions and understanding that SC2 violates many game design principles, especially modern principles that have made League so popular.
Maybe as a game designer I see this more clearly, but check this out:
Power Without Gameplay This is when we give a big benefit in a way that players don't find satisfying or don't notice. The classic example of this is team benefit Auras. In general, other players don't value the aura you give them very much, and you don't value it much either -- even though auras can win games. As a REALLY general example, I would say that players value a +50 armor aura only about twice as much as a +10 armor aura... Even though +50 is 5x better. Another example would be comparing a +10 damage aura to a skill that every 10 seconds gives flaming weapons that make +30 damage to all teammates next attack (with fire and explosions!). I am pretty sure that most players are WAY more excited about the fiery weapons buff, even though the strength is lower overall.
The problem with using a "power without gameplay" mechanic is that you tend to have to 'over-buff' the mechanic and create a game balance problem before people appreciate it. As a result, we tend to keep Auras weak, and/or avoid them altogether, and/or pair them on an active/passive where the active is very strong and satisfying, so that the passive is more strategic around character choice. For example, Sona's auras are all quite weak -- because at weak values they ARE appreciated properly.
Is there any better example of an overbuffed power without gameplay mechanic than pylon overcharge? Literally press F and click on pylons to hold off early timings. Is it satisfying for Protoss, makes the player feel skilled? Not at all. Is it overbuffed? Most certainly.
Read through the rest of the anti-design patterns and you'll begin to realize how SC2 fell off a cliff.
People play good games and good games are well designed. Sc2 is poorly designed.
Name a more successful RTS then.
Easy! Brood War.
Hence, why BW is doing amazing in Korea and GROWING. While SC2 is dying.
I don't understand how anyone could convince themselves of the logic that "RTS is dead", when BW is growing...
SC2's failings are completely due to their own decisions. There has been more than DOZENS (hundreds?) of questionable decisions Blizzard has made with SC2.
Did you not see the big warning at the top of the page? No one wants to read this here and it's not what this thread is about. Some of us like SC2 and are upset about it.
I must admit I was never a fan of Proleague, not even during SC1. However, Proleague did ALLOT for the overall health of the Starcraft community, both for Korea and outside Korea and it will feel strange to discuss Starcraft without Proleague for now on... An era died today.
You keep saying this, over and over, and it is poor analysis because it isn't qualitative (or quantitative for that matter unless you have some figures): you're not looking at the quality of SC2 as a game. Look at the game design decisions and understanding that SC2 violates many game design principles, especially modern principles that have made League so popular.
Maybe as a game designer I see this more clearly, but check this out:
Power Without Gameplay This is when we give a big benefit in a way that players don't find satisfying or don't notice. The classic example of this is team benefit Auras. In general, other players don't value the aura you give them very much, and you don't value it much either -- even though auras can win games. As a REALLY general example, I would say that players value a +50 armor aura only about twice as much as a +10 armor aura... Even though +50 is 5x better. Another example would be comparing a +10 damage aura to a skill that every 10 seconds gives flaming weapons that make +30 damage to all teammates next attack (with fire and explosions!). I am pretty sure that most players are WAY more excited about the fiery weapons buff, even though the strength is lower overall.
The problem with using a "power without gameplay" mechanic is that you tend to have to 'over-buff' the mechanic and create a game balance problem before people appreciate it. As a result, we tend to keep Auras weak, and/or avoid them altogether, and/or pair them on an active/passive where the active is very strong and satisfying, so that the passive is more strategic around character choice. For example, Sona's auras are all quite weak -- because at weak values they ARE appreciated properly.
Is there any better example of an overbuffed power without gameplay mechanic than pylon overcharge? Literally press F and click on pylons to hold off early timings. Is it satisfying for Protoss, makes the player feel skilled? Not at all. Is it overbuffed? Most certainly.
Read through the rest of the anti-design patterns and you'll begin to realize how SC2 fell off a cliff.
People play good games and good games are well designed. Sc2 is poorly designed.
Name a more successful RTS then.
Easy! Brood War.
Hence, why BW is doing amazing in Korea and GROWING. While SC2 is dying.
I don't understand how anyone could convince themselves of the logic that "RTS is dead", when BW is growing...
SC2's failings are completely due to their own decisions. There has been more than DOZENS (hundreds?) of questionable decisions Blizzard has made with SC2.
SC2's design was never praised in most areas. It's nearly unanimous that things liike economy, multitasking, pathing, etc - were better executed for a successful tournament RTS in BW.
Blizzards eSport decisions have caused the game to suffer, as well as caused BW to suffer.
Yet as much as Blizzard screwed BW (intentionally) to try to get player to move to SC2, BW STILL SURVIVED.
If RTS games are dead, then as much as they tried to kill BW, BW would have been dead too. But it's doing BETTER than SC2. Even though it's had no support and been screwed in the ass by Blizz.
Good RTS are still alive almost 20 years later, against all odds. It's poorly designed RTS like SC2 that are dead in a fraction of that time.
It seems fairly absurd to claim that the game is growing, are you telling me that if I went back 5, 10 or 15 years more people are playing today than there were then? The game has always held a strong following in Korea, but this doesn't mean that the RTS genre hasn't declined massively.
StarCraft2 has found a lot of success this year with COOP/DLC, while I guess it depends on what exactly your criteria for success is I don't see any reason to think that Brood War is an example of a more successful RTS game in 2016. You can argue it's a better game, but that's not really the point.
Very sad news for all the hardcore fans A literal End of an Era...
I don't think Blizz has much to do with it though. The decrease in popularity is just a sign of the times we live in. Casual players are not interested in games like SC2, because it's a game for people who like to challenge themselves, push the limits of their comfort zones, and above all invest the time to improve and stay in good shape.
Casual player is interested in quick fun without much effort, that's how everything mainstream looks like nowadays and it's no different in the gaming industry. It's the same with music - very little of high quality and ambitious stuff makes it to the mainstream today...
That being said, I don't understand how some people can blame Blizzard for not making the game friendly for casual players. I think that's exactly the reason most of us got interested in the game in the first place, isn't it?
I love the game for what it is and I don't care that it's not interesting for the mainstream audience. It's just becoming even a smaller niche than before, but it's still there, definitely not dying. Who knows, maybe in 15-20 years there will be another peak in popularity for the RTS genre and everyone will be playing it again?
On a different note, if I had to blame someone, I would pick the first 3 guys from the list below
This thread is also not about bashing Blizzard, David Kim, or the WCS system.
Well I think this is not the right attitude anymore, being politically correct is what has brought us to this point. I loved sc2 until LOTV, Blizzard has been reckless and has not managed things right. If the boat is going down, I think we should at least try to name who is responsible for it.
Is there some comparisson with viewership and playerbase amounts during the end of HOTS and now?
I think it would be really interesting to see something like that. I believe that certain design choices made in LOTV made alot of people quit the game, thus less players, less viewers, etc etc.
On October 19 2016 01:01 MaCRo.gg wrote: Why aren't we allowed to discuss Welfare Champion Series? How did that decision not have a profound impact on this KeSPA decision? Why must Liquid be pro Welfare regardless of the damage it does to SC2?
Because it didn't that much Do you not understand that KOREAN sponsors looking for KOREAN audience to advertise to have little interest in global advertisement if they don't have any global presence/assets? Sc2 interest was dwindling with all the new more popular releases. Hell, BW has more than 3 times the player than sc2 even now. Bw has more viewers on afreeca than sc2 will dream of. Sc2 never hit top 15. Bw consistently is top 5 pc bang behind overwatch, league, fifa online 3 (FO3 being casual b8)
Combine that with matchfixing scandal and very low vieweeship, it makes absolutely 0 sense to continue on. Probably with matchfixing scandal, kespa teams decided to be done for good
Welfare league only affects those who are looking to make extra bucks. The individuals.
Do you not realize this? Stop the shitposting.
ROFL Banning Korean players from participating in ANYTHING outside of Korea wasn't a factor in KeSPA dropping SC2? Welfare killing viewership had no effect on the Korean scene? Forcing early Korean player retirements of many fan favorites had NO EFFECT?
No doubt SC2 was dying and Korean interest in SC2 practically dead, but clearly xenophobia had a factor in killing Proleague.
How did WCS kill the viewership of Pro-league, explain me that? Those things are entirely unrelated. As stated numerous times before, foreign viewership has no relation to Korean sponsorships. SKT, KT, Jin Air, ... don't give a rats ass about sponsoring things that don't bring Korean viewers because those are literally their entire market. They don't sell things to people outside of South-Korea. The problem is Korean tournaments not drawing enough Korean viewers. WCS has nothing to do with that. A shifting esports landscape and match fixing scandals do.
Xenophobia? Jezus fucking Christ. Are you grasping or what?
Xenophobia is a soft term it is most definitely RACISM. How can you sit there and declare that WCS had NO EFFECT when tons of Korean pros were forced to retire because the WCS banned ONLY KOREANS from participating in over half the tournaments?
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4Ui70sx.png)
