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Regardless of the situation, we will still action upon "dead game" comments. As this is a sensitive issue for SC2 fans, please do not come into this thread and talk about SC2 players switching over to BW. This thread is also not about bashing Blizzard, David Kim, or the WCS system. |
9070 Posts
People are throwing blame around, but imho sc2 had pretty good run in korea considering all circumstances. While much has been said on the interest from the general public and sponsors I think its important to point out that the peak of korean sc2 and even the game in general happened during the wild west of streaming and more than anything this was the crucial bottleneck preventing the scene from becoming as big as it could've been, even if the game was released probably just 1 year later it would've been a much different story. People forget anything above 360p was behind a paywall, its incomparable with now that stream quality is not even a topic of discussion.
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esports is comedy and awkward bullshit anyway
User was warned for this post
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South Korea2106 Posts
I feel both scenes will have these 'mood swings' now, with solo competitions happening regularly and a smaller online team league every now and then. It pains me to see so much division between sc1 and sc2 fans when most of the playerbase is the same, just like the casters, the infrastructure, the communuty hub. Will take a while for both games to recuperate, definitely sc2 suffering more serious blows in recent times. The teams will have to change, players will fulfill their mandatory army duties, but ultimately most are bound to return to the game. Look at all the geezers sticking around, being coaches and commentators. Who knows, maybe even SPL will return someday. For now: least said, soonest mended. Looking for the culprit of all the commotion is now futile, however helpful it might be in avoiding similar situations in the future. Unite, for fucks sake
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France2027 Posts
On October 19 2016 01:27 letian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2016 01:09 Penev wrote:On October 19 2016 00:48 letian wrote:On October 18 2016 20:52 petro1987 wrote:On October 18 2016 20:41 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On October 18 2016 20:07 letian wrote:On October 18 2016 19:48 Glioburd wrote:On October 18 2016 19:43 letian wrote:It appears SC2 Proleague is coming to an end. The league ran from 2005-2016. Why did you include BW Proleague and call it a "league"? Because it was a league. On October 18 2016 19:43 letian wrote:
This is not correct since BW PL ended long ago and has nothing to do with SC2 PL. The common point between BW PL and SC2 PL is : the proleague. Should we include other sport leagues as well, because they are leagues? The common point between SC2 PL and SMITE league is: the proleague. Clearly, both games share the same universe and progamers to some extend but that's it. No, this looks like an attempt to drag BW into this and I don't like it, because SC2 was the reason why BW PL ended. true, with the attempt of storytelling that SC2 was itself just "Starcraft", the same thing, and all should move on forcibly with lawsuit + pouring money on a game nobody knew what it was really worth ;; never mentioning BW as also still being Starcraft, the present and future of Starcraft was now SC2, and BW the past. A corporate attack (by activision) on a community, fanbase, professional scene and should I say RTS game design for its own 100% self centered profit. Not to mention Dustin Browder (many people seem to forget about him now) actually saying: "If you like BW, go play BW!" whenever anyone tried to point a design issue. I guess forcing Korea to transition to SC2 wasn't a great idea afterall, right? It didn't even make sense considering the playerbase of both games. Has SC2 ever reached 1% in those game metrics sites? It's just a shame this happened and now we have no proleague anymore. Yet, I see people here blaming everything else, but the game design. The zealous apologists should really take a time to reflect if blindly defending every poor design decision in the game was a good idea. It was clear from the beginning, but we all tried to be polite and positive, now here you have it, 90% of all talented pro players returned to BW and continue their work on what's left of the game. BW PL scene was destroyed and now we have only old veterans who will play it for how long, 2-3 years more? Without PL and proper tournament there won't be new players and no future. I consider SC2 a big failure, failure which was foreseen by many long ago to prove them right only today, the worst thing is that before collapsing itself, everything was done to first bury its direct competitor, all for profit and you can think whatever you want but this is not right, this is evil in its pure form. The irony is that both games could happily coexist if not for sick corporate ambition to make more money out of Starcraft legacy. Let's save words like evil for things that actually deserve it but yeah, in the spectrum from bw clone to reinvent the wheel they clearly went too far to the reinvent side and stubbornly kept (keep) doing it while it should've been clear to them it was the wrong thing to do. And although calling it evil would be too much, in the beginning they made some really consumer unfriendly decisions as well. This is my humble opinion only. Some politically correct people are free to call it unfortunate circumstances or sad news. Some optimists are free to indulge themselves into all kinds of perspectives on keeping the western scene alive. I personally see no prerequisites.
Yeah it's evil there are worse kinds of evil and more seriously bad things to do but sure there is evil in greed lies manipulation etc
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rip korean scene SC2 team house time is over
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On October 19 2016 01:23 Penev wrote:
I wonder where we'd be now if Blizzard cooperated with KeSPA in 2010 instead of going with their aggressive approach.
As game developers they did everything correct. Maximized the value between investment and revenue.
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Signing in after having quit starcraft (and teamliquid) for more than a year now after voicing my discontent with the design direction (back when people were still arguing about macro mechanics and completely lost sight of the big picture).
Pretty sure we all saw this coming from a mile away. The gameplay, especially going into lotv, is just hard to enjoy for even the most hardcore of ranked players like myself. I played thousands of ranked games, was a six times terran masters in wol and hots, and I held out long after my friends had all quit the game.
The argument has always been an elitist one, that the hardcore starcraft fanbase will still stick with the game even as it gets progressively more stressful as 90% of your time is spent on defending and executing worker harass and preparing or defending ridiculous all-ins.
That's not true. I'm a hardcore starcraft fan through and through, watching competitive broodwar from 2006->2008 (my first vod was PJ vs Stork in horrible 240p), and then competitive sc2 from 2010 to 2015. That's 9 years of starcraft!
And I quit right as lotv came. The gameplay isn't up to par, the design team stubbornly added in that "phase shifting" bullshit onto their core protoss unit (which **I** asked for, I personally made the thread that originally started the protoss core unit discussion), while refusing to fix old design issues like the oracle (originally advertised by dustin browder as a "worker friendly unit").
Why did I ask for a core protoss unit? Because I remembered PJ vs Stork!! From all those years ago! Jockeying position around the map, dragoon vs dragoon battles, reaver vs reaver, all the emphasis on actual core armies vs core armies and none of the emphasis on backstabbing worker harassing bullshit we have now.
And now we just have a gimmick filled mess, a total disaster of a game. No medicine can make Starcraft's playerbase come back, when even the most hardcore players like myself have been disillusioned. Starcraft's struggles have also marked the decline of RTS's as a whole.
There's the argument, oh RTS is just not a popular genre anymore. Let me tell you this. The genre doesn't make the game, the game makes the genre. Starcraft's playerbase decline is due to the gameplay. Not its genre.
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France2027 Posts
On October 19 2016 01:31 letian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2016 01:23 Penev wrote:
I wonder where we'd be now if Blizzard cooperated with KeSPA in 2010 instead of going with their aggressive approach. As game developers they did everything correct. Maximized the value between investment and revenue.
I don't think all game developers are nearly as greedy and bad as actiblizz.. this isn't a requirement or even the role of game developers. Anyway it's mostly activision in this operation, or the head of the company..
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On October 19 2016 01:27 letian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2016 01:09 Penev wrote:On October 19 2016 00:48 letian wrote:On October 18 2016 20:52 petro1987 wrote:On October 18 2016 20:41 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On October 18 2016 20:07 letian wrote:On October 18 2016 19:48 Glioburd wrote:On October 18 2016 19:43 letian wrote:It appears SC2 Proleague is coming to an end. The league ran from 2005-2016. Why did you include BW Proleague and call it a "league"? Because it was a league. On October 18 2016 19:43 letian wrote:
This is not correct since BW PL ended long ago and has nothing to do with SC2 PL. The common point between BW PL and SC2 PL is : the proleague. Should we include other sport leagues as well, because they are leagues? The common point between SC2 PL and SMITE league is: the proleague. Clearly, both games share the same universe and progamers to some extend but that's it. No, this looks like an attempt to drag BW into this and I don't like it, because SC2 was the reason why BW PL ended. true, with the attempt of storytelling that SC2 was itself just "Starcraft", the same thing, and all should move on forcibly with lawsuit + pouring money on a game nobody knew what it was really worth ;; never mentioning BW as also still being Starcraft, the present and future of Starcraft was now SC2, and BW the past. A corporate attack (by activision) on a community, fanbase, professional scene and should I say RTS game design for its own 100% self centered profit. Not to mention Dustin Browder (many people seem to forget about him now) actually saying: "If you like BW, go play BW!" whenever anyone tried to point a design issue. I guess forcing Korea to transition to SC2 wasn't a great idea afterall, right? It didn't even make sense considering the playerbase of both games. Has SC2 ever reached 1% in those game metrics sites? It's just a shame this happened and now we have no proleague anymore. Yet, I see people here blaming everything else, but the game design. The zealous apologists should really take a time to reflect if blindly defending every poor design decision in the game was a good idea. It was clear from the beginning, but we all tried to be polite and positive, now here you have it, 90% of all talented pro players returned to BW and continue their work on what's left of the game. BW PL scene was destroyed and now we have only old veterans who will play it for how long, 2-3 years more? Without PL and proper tournament there won't be new players and no future. I consider SC2 a big failure, failure which was foreseen by many long ago to prove them right only today, the worst thing is that before collapsing itself, everything was done to first bury its direct competitor, all for profit and you can think whatever you want but this is not right, this is evil in its pure form. The irony is that both games could happily coexist if not for sick corporate ambition to make more money out of Starcraft legacy. Let's save words like evil for things that actually deserve it but yeah, in the spectrum from bw clone to reinvent the wheel they clearly went too far to the reinvent side and stubbornly kept (keep) doing it while it should've been clear to them it was the wrong thing to do. And although calling it evil would be too much, in the beginning they made some really consumer unfriendly decisions as well. This is my humble opinion only. Some politically correct people are free to call it unfortunate circumstances or sad news. Some optimists are free to indulge themselves into all kinds of perspectives on keeping the western scene alive. I personally see no prerequisites.
I just associate evil with murder etc. it has nothing to do with being politically correct but with having a words not lose meaning and have discussions turn into mindless polarized crap
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Not a surprise, so not much sadness. It was expected. I don't even understand how GSL can keep going next year on the ruins of what used to be a competitive korean scene : I highly doubt it will survive much longer. The present and future of SC2 is the foreign scene, it should be rather clear now ; South Korea never really wanted SC2, even if their amazing infrastructures allowed the best players ever to rise.
It's the dawn of a new era. We don't know what the future holds in store, but let's be optimistic. There will be brighter days for sure.
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On October 19 2016 01:32 MrInocence wrote:
The genre doesn't make the game, the game makes the genre.
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France2027 Posts
On October 19 2016 01:35 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2016 01:27 letian wrote:On October 19 2016 01:09 Penev wrote:On October 19 2016 00:48 letian wrote:On October 18 2016 20:52 petro1987 wrote:On October 18 2016 20:41 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On October 18 2016 20:07 letian wrote:On October 18 2016 19:48 Glioburd wrote:On October 18 2016 19:43 letian wrote:It appears SC2 Proleague is coming to an end. The league ran from 2005-2016. Why did you include BW Proleague and call it a "league"? Because it was a league. On October 18 2016 19:43 letian wrote:
This is not correct since BW PL ended long ago and has nothing to do with SC2 PL. The common point between BW PL and SC2 PL is : the proleague. Should we include other sport leagues as well, because they are leagues? The common point between SC2 PL and SMITE league is: the proleague. Clearly, both games share the same universe and progamers to some extend but that's it. No, this looks like an attempt to drag BW into this and I don't like it, because SC2 was the reason why BW PL ended. true, with the attempt of storytelling that SC2 was itself just "Starcraft", the same thing, and all should move on forcibly with lawsuit + pouring money on a game nobody knew what it was really worth ;; never mentioning BW as also still being Starcraft, the present and future of Starcraft was now SC2, and BW the past. A corporate attack (by activision) on a community, fanbase, professional scene and should I say RTS game design for its own 100% self centered profit. Not to mention Dustin Browder (many people seem to forget about him now) actually saying: "If you like BW, go play BW!" whenever anyone tried to point a design issue. I guess forcing Korea to transition to SC2 wasn't a great idea afterall, right? It didn't even make sense considering the playerbase of both games. Has SC2 ever reached 1% in those game metrics sites? It's just a shame this happened and now we have no proleague anymore. Yet, I see people here blaming everything else, but the game design. The zealous apologists should really take a time to reflect if blindly defending every poor design decision in the game was a good idea. It was clear from the beginning, but we all tried to be polite and positive, now here you have it, 90% of all talented pro players returned to BW and continue their work on what's left of the game. BW PL scene was destroyed and now we have only old veterans who will play it for how long, 2-3 years more? Without PL and proper tournament there won't be new players and no future. I consider SC2 a big failure, failure which was foreseen by many long ago to prove them right only today, the worst thing is that before collapsing itself, everything was done to first bury its direct competitor, all for profit and you can think whatever you want but this is not right, this is evil in its pure form. The irony is that both games could happily coexist if not for sick corporate ambition to make more money out of Starcraft legacy. Let's save words like evil for things that actually deserve it but yeah, in the spectrum from bw clone to reinvent the wheel they clearly went too far to the reinvent side and stubbornly kept (keep) doing it while it should've been clear to them it was the wrong thing to do. And although calling it evil would be too much, in the beginning they made some really consumer unfriendly decisions as well. This is my humble opinion only. Some politically correct people are free to call it unfortunate circumstances or sad news. Some optimists are free to indulge themselves into all kinds of perspectives on keeping the western scene alive. I personally see no prerequisites. I just associate evil with murder etc. it has nothing to do with being politically correct but with having a words not lose meaning and have discussions turn into mindless polarized crap
evil has many forms not just murder its just not the same thing.. if you can't call evil something that's not murder what do you call it, it really helps being able to call it for what it is so that it doesnt win, but anyway I guess what matters is the details.. ha
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France12911 Posts
On October 19 2016 01:34 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2016 01:31 letian wrote:On October 19 2016 01:23 Penev wrote:
I wonder where we'd be now if Blizzard cooperated with KeSPA in 2010 instead of going with their aggressive approach. As game developers they did everything correct. Maximized the value between investment and revenue. I don't think all game developers are nearly as greedy and bad as actiblizz.. this isn't a requirement or even the role of game developers. Anyway it's mostly activision in this operation, or the head of the company..
I dunno, Riot with their free2pay game make players lose so much time before being able to play competitive mode, as well as changing the meta so you need 2 years of active playing before having a decent champion pool/runes set.
Whereas you just had to buy sc2 and you had a complete game (and trust me the 60$ are worth the time gained...)
Plus their game is full of bugs even during worlds (they had to disable champions...) and they make dumb patches on purpose. Seems way more fishy than Blizzard tbh.
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On October 19 2016 01:36 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
evil has many forms not just murder its just not the same thing..
Evil means "profoundly immoral and wicked" I understand it doesn't mean murder
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On October 19 2016 01:35 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Not a surprise, so not much sadness. It was expected. I don't even understand how GSL can keep going next year on the ruins of what used to be a competitive korean scene : I highly doubt it will survive much longer. The present and future of SC2 is the foreign scene, it should be rather clear now ; South Korea never really wanted SC2, even if their amazing infrastructures allowed the best players ever to rise.
It's the dawn of a new era. We don't know what the future holds in store, but let's be optimistic. There will be brighter days for sure.
Don't you expect mass retirements?
Edit: Nvm, you do, I'm being distracted by my incredibly annoying neighbors. Idk if just the foreign scene can do it for me btw
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On October 19 2016 01:01 MaCRo.gg wrote:
Why aren't we allowed to discuss Welfare Champion Series? How did that decision not have a profound impact on this KeSPA decision? Why must Liquid be pro Welfare regardless of the damage it does to SC2?
How does WCS in any way have impact on Pro-league getting sponsors or not? As I said before, if you want to lay blame, blame Life and Prime.
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On October 19 2016 01:42 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2016 01:35 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Not a surprise, so not much sadness. It was expected. I don't even understand how GSL can keep going next year on the ruins of what used to be a competitive korean scene : I highly doubt it will survive much longer. The present and future of SC2 is the foreign scene, it should be rather clear now ; South Korea never really wanted SC2, even if their amazing infrastructures allowed the best players ever to rise.
It's the dawn of a new era. We don't know what the future holds in store, but let's be optimistic. There will be brighter days for sure. Don't you expect mass retirements?
I (not him tho, but he does like you realized now) definitely do, so far we have only 2 I think but I expect at least 10 more.
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So if StarCraft's 'failure' is due to it's gameplay, yet StarCraft is by far the most successful RTS game that has been released in the past decade, how high of a standard are Blizzard supposed to reach for it to be successful? Meanwhile you have League of Legends, DotA2, Smite, HotS all occupying similar or larger viewerships and playerbases, do these all reach this standard of game design that SC2 must reach to be successful?
The best, and to some extent only, modern RTS is terrible it's all Blizzard's fault. Something like that?
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On October 19 2016 01:29 disciple wrote:
People are throwing blame around, but imho sc2 had pretty good run in korea considering all circumstances. While much has been said on the interest from the general public and sponsors I think its important to point out that the peak of korean sc2 and even the game in general happened during the wild west of streaming and more than anything this was the crucial bottleneck preventing the scene from becoming as big as it could've been, even if the game was released probably just 1 year later it would've been a much different story. People forget anything above 360p was behind a paywall, its incomparable with now that stream quality is not even a topic of discussion.
Remember GomTV player that didn't allow you to watch unless you had a subscription? I was cheap then, so I didn't want to pay for it.
But I think that SC2 would have declined anyways in Korea because the audience was simply not there. 2013-2015 almost everything was un region locked, and the game still declined in Korea. I think obviously region locking was not the issue.
I do think it brings a curious comparison with BW. bW is far more popular in Korea, but (correct me if I am wrong) it is not as popular outside of Korea. Whereas SC2 is not popular in Korea but still fairly popular in the foreign scene.
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1 year ago we were complaining that there are only 3 seasons of PL... how times have changed 
edit: whoops, wrong smiley
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EPT
