EPTZest: The Last Titan - Page 7
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JokerAi
Germany142 Posts
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On May 28 2016 19:51 swissman777 wrote: Well I didn't say in terms of just LotV but just recently, including late 2015 as well. Otherwise, we can't say zest usually has sOs' number or that dark would usually beat maru and etc. Well historically Zest and Stats went 2-0, 1-3, 3-1, 0-2, 1-3 (7-9 total in maps). 4 of those were in HotS but people would call you silly if you doubted that Zest was the overall better player throughout HotS based on that record alone. And in the same vein, Zest's record against Stats alone isn't really enough to doubt Zest's position as the best player (if you add in other factors you might have something though). In general these head to head records are often just weird. Like sOs having problems with INnoVation historically is just strange and doesn't really add up (it's sOs's best MU and INnoVation's worst, sOs plays a very particular style that most other Terrans have huge trouble figuring out, even when they're better against Protoss than INnoVation). | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
Innovation has 3, but he's far from good and he's very likely getting eliminated in Code A again. Maru has 2 and is mentioned as someone who might rival Zest. soO has 1 title, 5 finals. But he too isn't in good form. herO has 2. But he too is not at the level to challenge for another one right now. sOs has never won a Korean title. He's won big money yes, but he hasn't performed in Korea outside of Proleague. Zest in current shape, despite looking mortal since the GSL finals, is still one of the biggest favorites to win another title this year. So yes, he is currently the first player to point at if you're looking for someone to potentially challenge Mvp one day. | ||
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On May 28 2016 20:50 Olli wrote: Stu uses Korean titles as an important criteria. Which is why nobody who's active right now comes close to Zest's 4 Korean Championships. Innovation has 3, but he's far from good and he's very likely getting eliminated in Code A again. Maru has 2 and is mentioned as someone who might rival Zest. soO has 1 title, 5 finals. But he too isn't in good form. herO has 2. But he too is not at the level to challenge for another one right now. sOs has never won a Korean title. He's won big money yes, but he hasn't performed in Korea outside of Proleague. Zest in current shape, despite looking mortal since the GSL finals, is still one of the biggest favorites to win another title this year. So yes, he is currently the first player to point at if you're looking for someone to potentially challenge Mvp one day. sOs won Hot6ix Cup, which was a very Korean tournament. On May 28 2016 20:38 Alarak89 wrote: It is the most effective and simplest way to evaluate a player. I agree it's simple and quite effective, but IMO it's more effective to do deeper analysis if you really to determine who's the best. Because in the end your win rates don't matter if they don't amount to titles. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On May 28 2016 20:51 Elentos wrote: sOs won Hot6ix Cup, which was a very Korean tournament. Oh right, lol Marineking Fine, so he has one. | ||
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swissman777
1106 Posts
On May 28 2016 20:50 Elentos wrote: Well historically Zest and Stats went 2-0, 1-3, 3-1, 0-2, 1-3 (7-9 total in maps). 4 of those were in HotS but people would call you silly if you doubted that Zest was the overall better player throughout HotS based on that record alone. And in the same vein, Zest's record against Stats alone isn't really enough to doubt Zest's position as the best player (if you add in other factors you might have something though). In general these head to head records are often just weird. Like sOs having problems with INnoVation historically is just strange and doesn't really add up (it's sOs's best MU and INnoVation's worst, sOs plays a very particular style that most other Terrans have huge trouble figuring out, even when they're better against Protoss than INnoVation). Head to head records may not count if the other player was bad such as the match history with flash and stardust in BW. Flash is still considered the best. However, if a good player cannot seem to surpass another good player, then the player can't be seen as the best player as the other player is beating him and everyone else. Likewise, Stats is in a great form currently and was in 2015 as much as zest was imo. So taking that into consideration, zest still needs to surpass stats in my view to be the best right now. | ||
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On May 28 2016 21:04 swissman777 wrote: Head to head records may not count if the other player was bad such as the match history with flash and stardust in BW. Flash is still considered the best. However, if a good player cannot seem to surpass another good player, then the player can't be seen as the best player as the other player is beating him and everyone else. Likewise, Stats is in a great form currently and was in 2015 as much as zest was imo. So taking that into consideration, zest still needs to surpass stats in my view to be the best right now. Stats can't beat Maru while Zest has beaten Maru more than once in LotV. Therefore Stats can't be the best either. But Maru hasn't beaten Zest in a longer series in a long time. So he can't be the best. But Zest isn't the best either. Which means nobody is the best. Which is implausible. You should know this line of logic doesn't hold up. Someone has to be the best, but your approach makes it nearly impossible for such a person to exist. Everyone has at least that one player they struggle with. Especially if you take matches from a different expansion into account. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
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Alarak89
United States882 Posts
On May 28 2016 20:51 Elentos wrote: sOs won Hot6ix Cup, which was a very Korean tournament. I agree it's simple and quite effective, but IMO it's more effective to do deeper analysis if you really to determine who's the best. Because in the end your win rates don't matter if they don't amount to titles. But you see win rate has positive relationship with championship numbers in general. Like I said before, the higher you win rate is, the better chance you can win more championships. | ||
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Wintex
Norway16849 Posts
On May 28 2016 19:46 Elentos wrote: Well, yeah, it would be great if we got regular updates on the in-house rankings of every team. ye lol this would be sweet, but maybe kinda bad for proleague, maybe after each round? :p | ||
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On May 28 2016 21:23 Wintex wrote: ye lol this would be sweet, but maybe kinda bad for proleague, maybe after each round? :p Honestly I don't think it'd change much for Proleague. The players are free to talk about it anyway, it's happened from time to time that it came up in MVP interviews for example. I think in general the teams have a pretty good idea about the rankings even if nobody directly tells each other about it. The top teams already predict the lineups correctly almost every time anyway. But for us fans this would be something cool & useful. | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
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gneGne
Netherlands697 Posts
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ZertoN
Germany214 Posts
On May 28 2016 20:50 Olli wrote: Stu uses Korean titles as an important criteria. unless hes talking about his favourite player taeja | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
Didn't see it coming whatsoever, well played.  | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
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tjtombo
United States295 Posts
On May 28 2016 23:22 Silvana wrote: I remember reading old TL articles where people had similar discussions about Flash. THings like dismissing his results as if they were a lucky streak, predicting him to fall off, saying that X other player (Mind it was?) was more deserving of praise, etc. History repeats itself! I both remember and agree, but on the other hand, KT fans (or just Zest fans) sometimes do the opposite in overhyping him. I do think Zest is the best player right now but I also think Protoss is really strong at the highest level. I honestly think we are still too early in LOTV to start saying Zest is the last titan standing, there is still plenty of time for a herO or a Maru or an Innovation to make power moves | ||
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
On May 28 2016 21:29 Elentos wrote: Honestly I don't think it'd change much for Proleague. The players are free to talk about it anyway, it's happened from time to time that it came up in MVP interviews for example. I think in general the teams have a pretty good idea about the rankings even if nobody directly tells each other about it. The top teams already predict the lineups correctly almost every time anyway. But for us fans this would be something cool & useful. Maybe published at the end of a season.  | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Guys, Life was Savior. Zest is going to be the next Bisu. But Maru is the next Flash. Flash also progressively ramped up in terms of power, as Maru is doing right now! | ||
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