EPTZest: The Last Titan - Page 6
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swissman777
1106 Posts
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Alarak89
United States882 Posts
On May 28 2016 18:33 swissman777 wrote: People keep on saying that zest is the best player right now, but stats keeps on beating him so idk... First of all, Zest did nothing during the year of 2013, and that was not the performance "the best player" should have. | ||
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On May 28 2016 18:26 PlOko00on wrote: Yeah, and Hartsem, PtiDrogo won a premier each. What does this mean? It is not Inno fault if the whole pro circuit is trash and meaningless. That has nothing to do with it. If INnoVation isn't playing well and failing in the tournaments he enters, that is not because the WCS system is bad. On May 28 2016 18:26 PlOko00on wrote: In my opinion he is the greatest hots player. Are you all saying that his intrinsic skill just disappeared? No, we're saying that he's currently - for whatever reason - unable to play at his peak skill and thus his performance has fallen off. The fact that he is not performing at his peak level is undeniable. On May 28 2016 18:33 swissman777 wrote: People keep on saying that zest is the best player right now, but stats keeps on beating him so idk... They've only played once in LotV. | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On May 28 2016 14:56 Diabolique wrote: Hey, Phredxor, I am sorry, but I do not get you. :-) I do not get your comment "Never change Diabolique". I am really sorry. I also do not get the sackofwetmice, but that is due to my bad English, so that is not a problem. But that "Never change Diabolique" is a problem. Can you, please, explain it to me? Maybe, the problem is on your side and you did not understand what I wrote. Maybe due to my bad English ... So I will try to explain it to you in some simple words: I always acknowledged Zest as one of the best players, although I am not his fan. In the last two weeks, I witnessed Zest losing to everybody, Zerg, Terran and Protoss. He won one match against Protoss. Then, I read Stuciu's article, which is fine, and then I get to the part of his fans, who shout "Zest is best". So I write here that he has actually lost more games than he won in the last week. And that if he was such a Titan, he would probably not lose it. And I suggest one explanation - Zerg loss, he did not concentrate, Terran loss was a real loss and he became so frustrated from it that he could not concentrate on the next Protoss match. I could rephrase it "I sense weakness". Can you please, explain to me the "Never change Diabolique"? Thanks Nah I understood you perfectly. Even the best players in the world can lose against other great players. On May 28 2016 16:03 Silvana wrote: Diabolique is not the next sackofwetmice, he is more like swag_bro: "Zest is in a slump!" That's probably a fairer comparison  | ||
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Keeemy
Finland7855 Posts
On May 28 2016 18:41 Alarak89 wrote: First of all, Zest did nothing during the year of 2013, and that was not the performance "the best player" should have. Well, it is 2016 right now. | ||
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Alarak89
United States882 Posts
Well, he had played SC2 for four years, not just 2016. | ||
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Keeemy
Finland7855 Posts
On May 28 2016 19:15 Alarak89 wrote: Well, he had played SC2 for four years, not just 2016. What I mean is, swissman said "People keep on saying that zest is the best player right now". Not GOAT. So why bring up 2013? | ||
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Wintex
Norway16849 Posts
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Alarak89
United States882 Posts
On May 28 2016 19:16 Keeemy wrote: What I mean is, swissman said "People keep on saying that zest is the best player right now". Not GOAT. So why bring up 2013? I'm talking about the article, not what swissman said. | ||
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On May 28 2016 18:23 Alarak89 wrote: Well, I never say MVP is a Bonwja since his win rate was below 60%. He was strong in early WoL only because Kespa was not "transformed" into SC2 completely till July 2012. He will be destroyed by any top tier Kespa player nowadays if he is still playing. But yeah, Life is a great player in terms of skills, and he had three out of four win rates above 60% as well, so clearly win rate is one of the (and probably the most important) indicators to evaluate how good a player is overall. LP can say whatever they want, but I only trust in numbers because they are "objective". IMO, the overall win rate is almost "equivalent" to the probability that a player will win any type of championship. For example, sOs has the highest win rate in the league so far, he also had won seven offline individual championships (which is one of the most). You underestimate how great Mvp really was. In 2013, long after his peak ended and his body had been completely ruined by injuries, and after the KeSPA transition occured, Mvp still managed to bring a BO5 against INnoVation - the best in the world at the time - to game 5. I don't think many people could have done that when they can't practice the game because they can't feel their own hands. If his body had held up, who knows what world we would live in today. Besides that, if you set the benchmark to 60% and say that it's "almost equivalent to the probability that a player will win any type of championship", there's still the fact that the player with the most tournament wins in SC2 (TaeJa) only has one win rate above 60% against Koreans. Zest has won 4 Korean championships - more than either INnoVation or sOs - even though he has 3 worse all-time win rates. So clearly just looking at the win rates doesn't actually tell you enough. Actually, his life time win rates are all barely better than those of Stats and Stats didn't win anything until last week. In terms of achievements, Zest and Stats are in a completely different category, but by win rates they're almost identical. So what I'm saying is, your view is too narrow-minded. Taking someone out of the picture purely because of a win rate benchmark that you have set - and somewhat arbitrarily, too - you can't justify that. | ||
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oneplay
United States11 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Keeemy
Finland7855 Posts
On May 28 2016 19:25 Alarak89 wrote: I'm talking about the article, not what swissman said. So why even quote? | ||
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swissman777
1106 Posts
Yes, and LotV came out very recently so we don't have a lot of data to work with in the first place. | ||
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On May 28 2016 19:40 swissman777 wrote: Yes, and LotV came out very recently so we don't have a lot of data to work with in the first place. Yeah but I dunno why you say "Stats keeps on beating him". They were exactly even in HotS (which isn't relevant in regards to Zest being the best player right now) and in LotV they've only played once. So I don't really understand what you were trying to say with that. | ||
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Wintex
Norway16849 Posts
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On May 28 2016 19:42 Elentos wrote: Yeah but I dunno why you say "Stats keeps on beating him". They were exactly even in HotS (which isn't relevant in regards to Zest being the best player right now) and in LotV they've only played once. So I don't really understand what you were trying to say with that. Stats is on a 3 map winning streak against Zest. Check. Mate. | ||
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On May 28 2016 19:45 Wintex wrote: i'm certain stats and zest have played more than once. it's just that we'll never be told the actual score line if they don't do a cheeky interview Well, yeah, it would be great if we got regular updates on the in-house rankings of every team. | ||
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swissman777
1106 Posts
On May 28 2016 19:42 Elentos wrote: Yeah but I dunno why you say "Stats keeps on beating him". They were exactly even in HotS (which isn't relevant in regards to Zest being the best player right now) and in LotV they've only played once. So I don't really understand what you were trying to say with that. Well I didn't say in terms of just LotV but just recently, including late 2015 as well. Otherwise, we can't say zest usually has sOs' number or that dark would usually beat maru and etc. | ||
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Lil_nooblet
United States459 Posts
 Hopefully there is a kespa cup soon. | ||
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Alarak89
United States882 Posts
On May 28 2016 19:29 Elentos wrote: You underestimate how great Mvp really was. In 2013, long after his peak ended and his body had been completely ruined by injuries, and after the KeSPA transition occured, Mvp still managed to bring a BO5 against INnoVation - the best in the world at the time - to game 5. I don't think many people could have done that when they can't practice the game because they can't feel their own hands. If his body had held up, who knows what world we would live in today. Besides that, if you set the benchmark to 60% and say that it's "almost equivalent to the probability that a player will win any type of championship", there's still the fact that the player with the most tournament wins in SC2 (TaeJa) only has one win rate above 60% against Koreans. Zest has won 4 Korean championships - more than either INnoVation or sOs - even though he has 3 worse all-time win rates. So clearly just looking at the win rates doesn't actually tell you enough. Actually, his life time win rates are all barely better than those of Stats and Stats didn't win anything until last week. In terms of achievements, Zest and Stats are in a completely different category, but by win rates they're almost identical. So what I'm saying is, your view is too narrow-minded. But that was only one game or one BO5 game, I am looking at certain period of time, not just one game. IMO, not only Mvp, also DRG, Nestea, MC are "strong" during WoL due to lacking of "great competitors". We all saw their performance during HotS, or after Kespa switched to SC2 completely, they dropped dramatically. Zest has overall offline win rate 60.82% so far which is 3rd in the league (tied with herO), thus they both had won six championships in their career. Again, It shows win rate do matters. Yeah, there will be few exceptions, but they do not affect the overall effectiveness of win rate. It is one of the most effective and simplest way to evaluate a player. | ||
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