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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
Protoss Photon Cannon
Terran Thor
Liberator
Zerg Swarm Host
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
Poll: Photon Cannon AA Change? Wrong Change made (463) Good Change (195) Bad Change (102) Insignificant (69) 829 total votes Your vote: Photon Cannon AA Change? (Vote): Good Change Poll: Thor AA Change? Bad Change (319) Good Change (142) Wrong Change made (122) Insignificant (55) 638 total votes Your vote: Thor AA Change? (Vote): Good Change Poll: Liberator AA Change? Wrong Change made (291) Good Change (215) Bad Change (89) Insignificant (16) 611 total votes Your vote: Liberator AA Change? (Vote): Good Change | ||
The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
Photon Cannon Anti-air damage increased from 20 to 20 (+10 bio) Uh.... wtf? | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
Why would you nerf one of the most underused units in the game?? | ||
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bObA
France300 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
Not only does this change kills mutalisks, it also makes mothership + air + cannons/storm even more unbreakable. Really not a fine change. The other ones should be more or less harmless. | ||
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Kafka777
361 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
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Buddy168
United States157 Posts
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coolman123123
146 Posts
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Cluster__
United States328 Posts
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
On April 30 2016 09:13 Solar424 wrote: Lol these polls. Glad to see Blizzard is as good at listening to the community as they have always been. sort of  | ||
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Wyrdness
United Kingdom29 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On April 30 2016 09:14 Wyrdness wrote: Oh boy SH getting a buff but nothing on the Banshee or Cyclone. I'm not sure I'd even call it a buff, the supply increase might actually make it worse than before tbh. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
Photon Cannon Anti-air damage increased from 20 to 20 (+10 bio) This doesn't address the fact that stargate is still the best opener versus Zerg for more reasons than just being anti muta, now you're just shutting down mutas harder with an opening that is still amazing. The last thing PvZ needs is the protoss having the ability to skip the phoenix step and get right to massing immortals. Thor/Liberator changes This doesn't address the fact that the thor overlaps with too many terran units, and isn't really as good. Your factory time is better off with almost any other unit while just building liberators/vikings out of a reactored starport. Maybe the damage changes will help thors find their role as opposed to liberators but I'm skeptical. Swarmhost change This one I'm closest to happy about, but I think the increase in supply will make it not worth the cost buff. I'd personally like to see a change to the muta instead of just making anti muta things better. Perhaps play with the regeneration stats so its somewhere between normal zerg unit and its current form. Remove liberator AA splash damage and give it back to the thor. Remove detection capabilities from the oracle but allow units that are hit with revelation be detected should they burrow/cloak (ie an unburrowed lurker that gets revelation cast on it will still be detected if it burrows). This would, without changing numbers stop robos from being immortal production facilities and allow for more interaction between protoss and zerg than "I clicked on a spot and flew away now I see everything". end rant EDIT: thank god the banshee speed change didn't go through | ||
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ArgusDreamer
Canada63 Posts
It'll be a sad story is all i'm thinking. Any buff to units who are vastly under used is cool, not if it's actually coupled with a straight up nerf. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
On April 30 2016 09:16 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I'm not sure I'd even call it a buff, the supply increase might actually make it worse than before tbh. think so too the supply change is huge -and would have been more relevant on the tempest if you ask me... | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
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sc2chronic
United States777 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
-liberator range upgrade removed -tempest 6 supply -ultra armor reverted -parasitic bomb removed from the game | ||
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Kurbz
Australia88 Posts
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TronJovolta
United States323 Posts
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Loccstana
United States833 Posts
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
Glad the banshee buff will compensate for the nerf. oh wait... what a joke... | ||
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Kafka777
361 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
On April 30 2016 09:33 Kafka777 wrote: Why eliminate mutas from the mu? Nerf mutas if you are so determined to shut down zerg muta play. You are also shutting down corruptors and drops. This is my BIG concern with the patch too. I don't think anything that (even so slightly) makes 1/ drop based play à la Dark weaker 2/ transitions to turtle airtoss + storm stronger could be healthy for the game. As I said multiple times before, a AA +light change (instead of +bio) achieves the same goal without those issues and would begin to address the PvP phoenix wars. | ||
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Corwinus
Croatia96 Posts
On April 30 2016 09:24 Charoisaur wrote: changes that are necessary: -liberator range upgrade removed -tempest 6 supply -ultra armor reverted -parasitic bomb removed from the game So what will the zerg do against SkyTerran beside hope that they'll be lucky and get the best possible engagement or have complete chaos in game like Elazer vs MarineLorD in HSC EU1 qualifier? Zerg already have the weakest anti-air IMO and PB only makes it so they are even in ZvT and not even that in ZvP(though that is more an issue of tempest being 4 supply). | ||
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Hider
Denmark9362 Posts
On April 30 2016 09:08 coolman123123 wrote: I like the Thor change but I don't think it has the range to be useful against Brood Lords or Tempests. Range upgrade would be a fantastic addition. Agree | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20282 Posts
If they're doing this with thor, they should restore the ability to switch modes. Why was it removed in the first place? | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
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Lil_nooblet
United States459 Posts
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stevethemacguy
United States137 Posts
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SiaBBo
Finland132 Posts
Like seriously, when are we getting any info on Tempest? | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
On April 30 2016 09:37 Corwinus wrote: So what will the zerg do against SkyTerran beside hope that they'll be lucky and get the best possible engagement or have complete chaos in game like Elazer vs MarineLorD in HSC EU1 qualifier? Zerg already have the weakest anti-air IMO and PB only makes it so they are even in ZvT and not even that in ZvP(though that is more an issue of tempest being 4 supply). in the OP there is a change mentioned that adresses skyterran. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
Decent maps would be a good start before doing something... | ||
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Mier19891
United States75 Posts
On April 30 2016 09:10 Cluster__ wrote: Is that AA change to Liberator a nerf or a buff? What was it previously? Previously 7 damage +1 light. It's a 1 damage nerf to units like mutas and a 3 damage nerf to corruptors. Rather large... ETA: it attacks twice, so applied twice. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2623 Posts
On April 30 2016 09:37 Corwinus wrote: So what will the zerg do against SkyTerran beside hope that they'll be lucky and get the best possible engagement or have complete chaos in game like Elazer vs MarineLorD in HSC EU1 qualifier? Zerg already have the weakest anti-air IMO and PB only makes it so they are even in ZvT and not even that in ZvP(though that is more an issue of tempest being 4 supply). This patch already adresses that no? | ||
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TelecoM
United States10666 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
But let's see, maybe some pros will start using them. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2623 Posts
I agree with Charoisaur. Fuck mass air comps just nerf libs, tempest and vipers, do what that post on reddit said, make the midgame stronger. | ||
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adnap2
France26 Posts
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Mojzii1
30 Posts
meanwhile buff protoss and nerf terrans  sadly we can't get refunds for game | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On April 30 2016 09:55 Lexender wrote: Also the thor change is, ok I guess(?) I mean is good for certain cases, but its more of a loss because altough sky terran is weaker (and thank god for that because fuck mass air) sky toss and sky zerg (BL/viper) is still strong (and that sucks because fuck mass air). I agree with Charoisaur. Fuck mass air comps just nerf libs, tempest and vipers, do what that post on reddit said, make the midgame stronger. Thor change might help vs libe and make mecha niche instead of unviable. 100% useless vZ/P tho. | ||
Jer99
Canada8157 Posts
On April 30 2016 09:56 adnap2 wrote: Maybe its time to uninstall. This Balance Update is a nonsense. What's nonsense about it? | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
The other changes are OK (I guess) but I totally understand someone who would think the photon cannon change is nonsensical. Korean PvZ is heavily P favored and you restrict Z a bit more ? Come on. | ||
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Corwinus
Croatia96 Posts
On April 30 2016 09:47 Charoisaur wrote: in the OP there is a change mentioned that adresses skyterran. No it doesn't. Even if liberators are nerfed, thus making corruptors more viable, without PB terran can go banshee liberator viking(which would be the counter to corruptors) without a good way for zerg to respond to it. Just make a few less liberators and a few more vikings and you'd be set to go. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
On April 30 2016 10:03 Corwinus wrote: No it doesn't. Even if liberators are nerfed, thus making corruptors more viable, without PB terran can go banshee liberator viking(which would be the counter to corruptors) without a good way for zerg to respond to it. Just make a few less liberators and a few more vikings and you'd be set to go. vikings aren't the counter to corruptors. vikings and corruptors trade even and zerg still has fungal to work with. | ||
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Hurricaned
France126 Posts
They're completely missing the point : -Liberators are too strong : okay, but they are the only response to ultras : nerf liberator, but nerf ultras appropriately so bio isn't completely useless in late game. -Protoss is too greedy early vs Terran and struggles to hold vs Zerg... Nerf the MSC so terran can harass early but also nerf ravager so zerg can't all-in every game (and also removing garbage maps like prion or korhal carnage will also help on that matter). It's fine since if you nerf liberators. -Adepts, lurkers, ravager, liberator and possibly disruptor are way too strong and game breaking in a lot of matchups so instead of going around the problem and giving protoss cannon pylon or any other nonsensical feature deal with the problem at the very root. See for example swarm host was nerfed to the ground and is no longer a problem. I don't recommend nerfing every unit as massively since they're not as boring as the SH | ||
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ellenpageplss
6 Posts
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Lil_nooblet
United States459 Posts
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J. Corsair
United States470 Posts
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FoxDog
170 Posts
then they nerfed the cyclone because the unit was too superior to its alternatives and didnt fit a role, instead it just overlapped and did every units role better, instead of balancing this they just blanket nerfed it into oblivion. Now they are nerfing the liberator to the point where you cant make them outside bio, pigeonholing terran into going for the korean bio build, this is the final nail in the coffin of mech players, good job blizzard removing 30% of the sc2 community and its viewership, and those people take with them their friends, their contribution and its not like sc2 can afford that right now. | ||
TheWinks
United States572 Posts
And this right before two tournaments where for Leipzig they delayed the adept nerf which was a clear and present balance problem. I'm pretty upset. e: In order to trade effectively with corruptors (and infestors and vipers), vikings needed raven support. But that unit was nerfed into the ground too. Zerg just gets air dominance late game now and because liberators are so necessary to deal with ultras on the ground, I don't know how this just doesn't evolve into another broodlord/infestor type meta as zergs learn the balance between greed and survival. | ||
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necrosexy
451 Posts
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MiniFotToss
China2430 Posts
clearly you haven't been around lately, it was discussed since last week | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
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AxiomBlurr
786 Posts
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + As always nothing conclusive will be said before we pro korean play, just wait and see | ||
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TheGrandFandangler
6 Posts
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On April 30 2016 11:40 AxiomBlurr wrote: Let us foreigners see how the Korean community analyze this data before reaching for the hemorrhoid cream... The two scenes have very different map pools. Balance and the how/why changes matter changes between them. On April 30 2016 11:47 Gwavajuice wrote: Historically, 90% of the comments made on teamliquid right after a patch announcement were wrong, so I guess this will a good patch. 87% of statistics are created on the spot. | ||
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AdrianHealeyy
114 Posts
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Granwyth
15 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9362 Posts
On April 30 2016 11:54 TheWinks wrote: The two scenes have very different map pools. Balance and the how/why changes matter changes between them. 87% of statistics are created on the spot. Stop exagerrating. The correct number is 81%. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On April 30 2016 10:02 [PkF] Wire wrote: The other changes are OK (I guess) but I totally understand someone who would think the photon cannon change is nonsensical. Korean PvZ is heavily P favored and you restrict Z a bit more ? Come on. Where did you get that info? The only one demolishing Zergs are Zest and Deer. And they are demolishing them on fair maps, not the super creative ladder maps. The rest of the world plays on maps which are heavily Zerg favoured, which is why aligulac stats favour Zerg. That being said, buffing photon cannons is the wrong thing to do. Stalker AA damage should have been buffed to flat 14 dmg. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On April 30 2016 12:09 Granwyth wrote: Why not leave the Liberator as is, but move it to the tech lab? This will keep it badass while limiting them to a reasonable number. What are the disadvantages? The unit is simply too strong and too well rounded for cost. It needs to lose some of its versatility. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On April 30 2016 12:16 CheddarToss wrote: The unit is simply too strong and too well rounded for cost. It needs to lose some of its versatility. The problem is it was created to fill holes they're otherwise unwilling to fill with changes to other units. The late game AA aoe splash role could be moved (back) to the raven without problem, but they're unwilling to do so. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On April 30 2016 12:24 TheWinks wrote: The problem is it was created to fill holes they're otherwise unwilling to fill with changes to other units. The late game AA aoe splash role could be moved (back) to the raven without problem, but they're unwilling to do so. Hopefully they will do it after this nerf. I hate watching games with mass liberators. | ||
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ilikeredheads
Canada1995 Posts
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asongdotnet
United States1060 Posts
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
Edit: it says anti air, guess I didn't notice cannons had two kinds of attack. My bad. | ||
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Quineotio
Australia128 Posts
Don't spread misinformation you communist hippy scum. Everyone knows the number is 73%, and if you think differently it's because you're racist. | ||
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DeadByDawn
United Kingdom476 Posts
The Thor nerf will make no difference as nobody makes them now, and nobody will make them after this change. | ||
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Ctesias
4595 Posts
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On April 30 2016 13:31 DeadByDawn wrote: Didn't David Kim say that if they pushed out a balance patch before DH Austin that they would do so minus the Banshee buff? So the Banshee buff is still in the works? Not sure that I like that - compensate the strong nerf of the Liberator in other ways. Yeah, it doesn't really make sense. The adept nerf patch was needed really badly and they intentionally delayed it until after Dreamhack. The liberator part of this patch doesn't need to be rushed out the door because it's not a major balance issue, but they're pushing it right before not one, but TWO dreamhacks and delaying compensation. | ||
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Isarios
United States153 Posts
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Sbblake99
United States4 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20282 Posts
On April 30 2016 13:32 Ctesias wrote: I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind any of these changes. Muta has become pretty silly. P has phoenix range and +bioair to cannons both explicitly targeting mutalisks. Z has +bioair to spores, terran has liberator AA - all to deal with muta which had its regen buffed by 4x and speed buffed in the HOTS beta. It's not like being strong even allowed for them to be played more often because now we have these ridiculous specific hard counters in place - if anything, they're played less often and games involving them are less fun than before | ||
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breaker1328
Canada295 Posts
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BazookaBenji1
15 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
The Thor change is good since Terran can finally fight against Tempest/Carrier/BrooLord armies without having to invest most of the supply in air units. But this change still makes Terran weaker overall since Liberators were the OP unit that held the overall weak Terran together. The patch should have included nerfs to Immortals and Ultras to keep the overall game balanced. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On April 30 2016 14:52 breaker1328 wrote: All in all I can get behind these changes. What I'm not understanding is that the Liberator can effectively shut down half of the map with their anti ground attack while simultaneously being reactored and massed for a relatively small cost to combat any kind of mass air attack that either zerg or protoss can offer. I'm sure this is exactly what the nerf is intended to do, and I and I'm sure 99.9% of Zerg players out there agree with this statement, which is why the nerf is definitely justified, Liberators shouldn't own Corruptors in straight up anti air fights, they already rofl stomp Mutalisks into being almost unviable past drop defense. The cannon changes are really bad, this will only further deter Mutalisk play in a match up where they were already bad and will do nothing to encourage Protoss players to stray from Stargate openers in PvZ, and that's because Stargate openers are just damn good vs. Zerg in general. Think back to BW, what was the standard opening for Protoss against Zerg? Yup, Stargate units, Corsairs for the win. Phoenix is always going to be strong vs. Zerg because it seizes map control, makes going Mutalisks unviable, and get's guaranteed drone kills. Thor changes are almost as nonsensical as that trash unit still being in the game, end the nonsense and remove it or turn it into the Goliath. I feel the same way about the Swarm Host, the changes are almost as bad as the unit, 4 supply for a unit that cannot attack more then twice a minute? Oh yea, that's sure going to help in the speedy and harass centric LOTV metgame. Lol, remove that unit from the game and be done with it. Still a bit disappointing about the Cyclone being so bad, if they won't turn the Thor into the Goliath, maybe they could get close by making the Cyclone better at being a mobile AA? I mean I completely despise watching and playing against mech, but it should be at least semi viable even at the pro level for varieties sake. A close eye also definitely needs to be kept on Protoss as far as ZvP balance is concerned, Immortals are and have been over performing for a long time and if Zerg doesn't find reliable ways to defeat the PICA composition then patches should be on the table. | ||
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Gen.Rolly
United States200 Posts
On April 30 2016 09:01 Charoisaur wrote: Thors are never used and they still get nerfed. Mutas will shit on them now. this change is so bad. Why would you nerf one of the most underused units in the game?? Are you kidding me? This just made Thors incredibly strong vs Brood Lords and made mech that much stronger in the late game. Remember you don't even have to micro Thors to hit air. No one uses Thors vs mutas anyways because of the Liberator. RIP zerg late game vs terran (unless you can turtle and rely on cheaper swarm hosts, we'll see). | ||
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bertolo
United States133 Posts
On April 30 2016 15:27 Gen.Rolly wrote: Are you kidding me? This just made Thors incredibly strong vs Brood Lords and made mech that much stronger in the late game. Remember you don't even have to micro Thors to hit air. No one uses Thors vs mutas anyways because of the Liberator. RIP zerg late game vs terran (unless you can turtle and rely on cheaper swarm hosts, we'll see). You have never used a thor or played terran I see. | ||
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Gen.Rolly
United States200 Posts
On April 30 2016 15:32 bertolo wrote: You have never used a thor or played terran I see. Haha, great comeback, bro. Howabout focus on the issue. And actually, I have. edit: But...I guess as a terran you wouldn't object to Thors doing 50 fucking damage a shot to brood lords. | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
This game is dead | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On April 30 2016 15:43 Gen.Rolly wrote: Haha, great comeback, bro. Howabout focus on the issue. And actually, I have. edit: But...I guess as a terran you wouldn't object to Thors doing 50 fucking damage a shot to brood lords. Any zerg that lets thors sit in range of their broodlords has done something wrong. This was true in Wings, it was true in hots with the same AA cannon (with a bit lower damage), and it's true now. A terran player that has used thors in late game would understand that thanks to very painful memories, especially from Wings. And they've buffed broodlord range in lotv to boot. | ||
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bertolo
United States133 Posts
On April 30 2016 15:43 Gen.Rolly wrote: Haha, great comeback, bro. Howabout focus on the issue. And actually, I have. edit: But...I guess as a terran you wouldn't object to Thors doing 50 fucking damage a shot to brood lords. I am focusing on the issue. Also the only one you seem to care about. Thors don't have enough range even at 10 to stay in range and deal 5 shots per brood lord to even take a single one down. that means i need 5 thors in range to kill one brood every 2 seconds. that is pathetic. Broods already have 11 range and shit broodlings all over your thors and units not to mention the army you should have with your broods.] The cannon change is dumb and shuts down mutas even more in pvz. The swarm host change is questionable at best, have to see what happens. Liberator change might be the only one to bring a bit of balance and only to tvz. On April 30 2016 15:50 Topdoller wrote: Going down the same route as previous expansions. Strange fixes and +10 to this and +5 that that against various units in order to fix perceived problems This game is dead Sadly this feels more so every day. | ||
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sagefreke
United States241 Posts
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Uzikoti
16 Posts
I wish we could start the game with 50 workers tho. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
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xtorn
4060 Posts
Meh *opens hearthstone | ||
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Zoodles11
5 Posts
I mean firstly, protoss already relies on pylons to defend themselves, and now we buff cannons to make them place even more static defence. I feel like its a incorrect buff just by logic, since blizzard themselves want to make the game more actionpacked and fun. Cannons do nothing to achieve that. I would much prefer if a similar buff was given to a unit like the stalker, which would allow for much more dynamical gameplay. I also feel unsure about what this buff really achieves in terms of balance. Is is to deflect a two base muta rush. I dont feel like that was the hardest thing about mutas personally, I think it was the huge transitions and the fact that its more or less impossible to counter in time that was the hard part. A cannon doing some bonus damage on a individual muta is not defending that. I feel really weird about the thor change, I cant really comment to much on that one. Same with the SH. I dont really know in what situation you would have use of it. It seemed a lot like it was really hard for zerg air to do anything about liberators, so I guess the change was nice. | ||
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beheamoth
44 Posts
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Creager
Germany1889 Posts
Sorry, but if this is what David Kim meant when he talked about 'aggressively pushing balance changes' I'm no fan of this procedure, to say the least. | ||
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loppy2345
39 Posts
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polpot
3002 Posts
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On April 30 2016 15:53 TheWinks wrote: Any zerg that lets thors sit in range of their broodlords has done something wrong. This was true in Wings, it was true in hots with the same AA cannon (with a bit lower damage), and it's true now. A terran player that has used thors in late game would understand that thanks to very painful memories, especially from Wings. And they've buffed broodlord range in lotv to boot. Thors had more range than broodlords on WOL/HOTS. And thors and broodlords have just 1 range difference on lotv, but are faster than broodlords. Aslo there is a long casting time on broodlings, and thors have time to get in range and shoot broodlords. Your remark is just troll, marines and roach have just one range difference, so marines shouldn't be hit by roaches unless Terran is bad then ? Honestly, as zerg i prefer the old thor, this one is more scary if he can counter broodlords. At least vs splash air dmg you can split. If you add photon buff, nerf carrier/skytoss, we all know skytoss camper love camping under toons of photon and mass air/carrier, unless you want to promote noob style and invincible deathball... | ||
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Legobiten
71 Posts
Let's see how the changes work out. It really feels like minor changes. | ||
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CyanApple
48 Posts
On April 30 2016 12:09 Granwyth wrote: Why not leave the Liberator as is, but move it to the tech lab? This will keep it badass while limiting them to a reasonable number. What are the disadvantages? This seems the most reasonable to me as well, as it allows for scouting and an appropriate response, which is key in a strategy game imo. | ||
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90ti
United States100 Posts
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KatatoniK
United Kingdom978 Posts
The need for more bases helps Zerg production too, the more hatches they have, the more units they can produce while Protoss still has to invest in infrastructure such as gateways. What do Protoss get to help boost production? Ah yes a significantly nerfed Chronoboost. In the current meta, if Protoss don't do a lot of econ damage or take a favourable fight, its gg. Protoss just doesn't have the remax capability while Zerg can just look at the Protoss comp and build a whole new army that outright counters the Protoss. As for those complaining about PICA, the sad reality is, that's the only thing Protoss has that is vaguely viable in the current meta. Phoenix allows us to survive the early game to get the rest out, which we then need in order to deal with stuff like lurkers, hydras and roaches. Protoss lacks decent AoE currently. Disruptors are awful and coinflippy, Storm is ok but in a big fight HTs are usually just dead supply and are better tanking as archons. As for Collossi they're about as viable as a chocolate teapot. Aside from PvZ. The lib nerf isn't enough, they need the range upgrade either flat out removing or scaled back. Libs are far too good at zoning out armies currently. Transition to Tempest, sure is viable but the T has to let you get to that point. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
On April 30 2016 17:53 Tyrhanius wrote: Thors had more range than broodlords on WOL/HOTS. And thors and broodlords have just 1 range difference on lotv, but are faster than broodlords. Aslo there is a long casting time on broodlings, and thors have time to get in range and shoot broodlords. Your remark is just troll, marines and roach have just one range difference, so marines shouldn't be hit by roaches unless Terran is bad then ? Honestly, as zerg i prefer the old thor, this one is more scary if he can counter broodlords. At least vs splash air dmg you can split. If you add photon buff, nerf carrier/skytoss, we all know skytoss camper love camping under toons of photon and mass air/carrier, unless you want to promote noob style and invincible deathball... I really hope this post was a joke and you don't really think the thor - broodlord interaction is comparable to the marine - roach interaction. otherwise I might have to question your intelligence. | ||
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saalih416
19 Posts
I've noticed there are now even new unit classes and specific unit damages to help aid balancing which, I'd presume,adds more factors which would lead to harder attempts at balancing the game. Oh and let's not forget that some balance changes are for the sole purpose of making the game easier for people that whine about their inability to micro and multitask. From my understanding, BW was an expansion to the original to introduce units that filled crucial roles (dealing with mass units I think was the main issue). There's a lot of role overlapping in SC2 from the excess of units for the sake of their being more units. For example, the Widow Mine overlaps a bit with the Siege Tank, Liberator feels like a flying Siege Tank- it also shares the Thor AA vs light role... I'm only making a comparison with BW because it's the only other RTS that I know well but for BW, I can't think of a single unit role overlapping with another in a race. I just see the same pattern whenever there's a new Balance Update released. It just feels like the game is trying to balance innate problems. | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3346 Posts
The other three feel wrong too but it s hard to tell without trying so let's see. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
I've even identified a few SC2 units from Red Alert 2 (David Kim was involved with that game too) Dustin Browder, game designer. Not David kim | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 30 2016 19:32 Charoisaur wrote: It's a joke to think that in WoL/HotS a broodlord can avoid being shot at by a unit that outranges them. In LotV, the attack delay is long enough that the thor will get within range to shoot anyways. It would be just as silly to suggest that a terran player that lets their marines sit within range of roaches has done something wrong, as the interactions are different, but the comparison to the ridiculous statement is valid.I really hope this post was a joke and you don't really think the thor - broodlord interaction is comparable to the marine - roach interaction. otherwise I might have to question your intelligence. Anyways my opinions: Photon Cannon buff: Pointless as the stated aim was to discourage pheonix openers. Protoss will still open pheonix, as they have been since WoL and if anything the changes in economy made them more effective. Thor: Changed from anti-muta to anti broodlord. Maybe it is more effective against Battlecruisers, a unit rarely seen in TvT. The unit seems to be changed to justify the strange liberator nerf. Liberator: It will help prevent moments when liberators utterly decimate corruptors somewhat, but liberators will still splash corruptors and mutalisks even when magic boxed. In effect, instead of doing the obvious anti-air nerf of reducing the splash radius, Blizzard has opted to change the Thor to make the liberator the dedicated anti mutalisk unit. In the end the liberator is just as strong in detering large amounts of mutalisks. Swarm Host: The only thing I can think of that the change encourage is to make swarm hosts in a disposable midgame timing attack. Cheaper so you build them and then sac them before the 4 supply becomes a problem. In practice i think the other player avoids or counter attacks and kill the swarmhost player. | ||
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Gen.Rolly
United States200 Posts
On April 30 2016 19:32 Charoisaur wrote: I really hope this post was a joke and you don't really think the thor - broodlord interaction is comparable to the marine - roach interaction. otherwise I might have to question your intelligence. I question your intelligence and more so your insecurity in hiding behind 5 cent insults that mean absolutely jack shit. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Not that I've seen a lot of big Muta flocks since LotV but still. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
I have hard time firguring out why one would think about thors vs broodlords when seeing this patch. I don't mean Thor won't be usefull vs BL, I haven't tested mass Thors vs Mass BL in unit tester yet (if one of you did it, please post the result) BUT to me the sheer logic shows that this patch is intended to change the way terrans deal with corruptors and to adress TvP late game. Nowadays : you need liberators to both deal with the corruptos and the ultralisks. Sure, ghosts will help with their snipe but they're expensive and squishy, and require even more micro. Anyway, it's hard to not loose every liberators on each engagenemt, cause once you sieged them to kill ultra, they can't defend themselves against corruptors, and by the time your vikings take them out, you're in trouble. The typical outcome of such a battle for me, is the Zerg goes back but has saved some ultralisks and most of the corruptors. On the other hand the terran is left with marauders, marines and medivacs, he lost all his liberators and ghost. So, even if the Terran doesn't loose the fight, he looses his most important/expensive units while the zergs keeps his high tech expensive ones. After a few fight like this, the Zerg will win because the Terran can only rebuild so many lib/ghosts and his army's quality is just worse and worse after each battle. What I hope from this patch : libs zone the ultralisks out, thors kill the corruptors (4 thors 1 shot a corruptor) Thors might even be usefull as meat wall agains ultras... This seems to me an easiest way to deal with the zerg late game army than before. And if BL come, I believe the vikings will be the easiest answer as they've always been. One legit concern though is, imho, you might be forced into a slow, turtly army which would feel like old HotS mech.... Anyway, many people express interesting opinions, but not a lot of facts are showed. Can the people that are in absolute rage against this patch post their balance map replays so we can understand their views? Cause I keep reading them and I fail to find much sense out of them. I'm a slow thinker, I need pictures and replays to understand. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On April 30 2016 20:39 Dangermousecatdog wrote: It does kind of make sense that blizzard changed the thor to an anti corruptor unit, but they did so without telling anyone of their intentions. Anyhow your little story of unit interactions is somewhat laughable. Ok, you might not be aware but we have community feedbacks every weekd + various interviews. The Thor AA is a subject that has been talked about since january or something. Second, I'm ready to admit that I'm wrong and that you're a superior player, but I will need better explanations and proofs to admit it. I'm laughable, fine, I like to laugh, just enlighten me... | ||
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PharaphobiaSC
Czech Republic457 Posts
On April 30 2016 20:31 Gwavajuice wrote: Guys, why are you talking about broodlords? I have hard time firguring out why one would think about thors vs broodlords when seeing this patch. I don't mean Thor won't be usefull vs BL, I haven't tested mass Thors vs Mass BL in unit tester yet (if one of you did it, please post the result) BUT to me the sheer logic shows that this patch is intended to change the way terrans deal with corruptors and to adress TvP late game. Nowadays : you need liberators to both deal with the corruptos and the ultralisks. Sure, ghosts will help with their snipe but they're expensive and squishy, and require even more micro. Anyway, it's hard to not loose every liberators on each engagenemt, cause once you sieged them to kill ultra, they can't defend themselves against corruptors, and by the time your vikings take them out, you're in trouble. The typical outcome of such a battle for me, is the Zerg goes back but has saved some ultralisks and most of the corruptors. On the other hand the terran is left with marauders, marines and medivacs, he lost all his liberators and ghost. So, even if the Terran doesn't loose the fight, he looses his most important/expensive units while the zergs keeps his high tech expensive ones. After a few fight like this, the Zerg will win because the Terran can only rebuild so many lib/ghosts and his army's quality is just worse and worse after each battle. What I hope from this patch : libs zone the ultralisks out, thors kill the corruptors (4 thors 1 shot a corruptor) Thors might even be usefull as meat wall agains ultras... This seems to me an easiest way to deal with the zerg late game army than before. And if BL come, I believe the vikings will be the easiest answer as they've always been. One legit concern though is, imho, you might be forced into a slow, turtly army which would feel like old HotS mech.... Anyway, many people express interesting opinions, but not a lot of facts are showed. Can the people that are in absolute rage against this patch post their balance map replays so we can understand their views? Cause I keep reading them and I fail to find much sense out of them. I'm a slow thinker, I need pictures and replays to understand. The thing you don't see is since 2012 there is a trend going on stronger and stronger. Since SC2 is not biggest fish in the pond people trend to sh*t talk EVERYTHING that Blizzards posts. Whenever its WoW,SC2,HotS,D3,OverWatch and HS. And if the game and community is smaller and smaller (prolly stagnates now) the toxicity increase is multiplied. So thats why you will rarely see constructive feedback. People log in just to sh*t on Blizzard | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
We need at least a month to decide his purpose is to prevent mass air vs mass air or just give ground mech have easier time when they move out to trade and slowly transition into air and mass air vs mass air still exist. Not a single positive feedback in this thread zzzzzz | ||
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Creager
Germany1889 Posts
On April 30 2016 20:59 PharaphobiaSC wrote: The thing you don't see is since 2012 there is a trend going on stronger and stronger. Since SC2 is not biggest fish in the pond people trend to sh*t talk EVERYTHING that Blizzards posts. Whenever its WoW,SC2,HotS,D3,OverWatch and HS. And if the game and community is smaller and smaller (prolly stagnates now) the toxicity increase is multiplied. So thats why you will rarely see constructive feedback. People log in just to sh*t on Blizzard To be perfectly honest, over the last couple of years Blizzard's policy of how to make games has changed drastically, in my opinion not for the better - sure, financially some of their decisions have been a huge success, but I have to admit, as a player the content the company has been delivering as of late is appealing less and less to me. Given the amount of shit Blizzard is taking on a regular basis is kind of understandable to me, not necessarily justified. But it's frustrating to follow the course of a developer for such a long time, growing up playing their games and then realize they're slowly drifting away to other business models and kind of games while trying to pretend they're still doing the same. I think it's just my personal tale of growing up, after all lol. | ||
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sparklyresidue
United States5523 Posts
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Gullis
Sweden740 Posts
Now I am a terran player but the way that mutas plays out in pvz looks fucking retarded. So I guess it is good they are looking at it but I find this to be a very lazy fix. Maybe give stalker aa dmg bonus vs light instead? Swarm host, if I have to play against swarm host+nydus harass I might kill myself.... please just remove this unit..... | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
so back to ravager all-ins every game | ||
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Mojzii1
30 Posts
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AnSeTe
Ukraine3 Posts
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On April 30 2016 20:31 Gwavajuice wrote: Nowadays : you need liberators to both deal with the corruptos and the ultralisks. That's not really the case, it's zerg who build corruptors to deal with liberators not liberators built to deal with corruptors. Else zerg would prefer building mutas. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16647 Posts
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On April 30 2016 22:01 Ej_ wrote: lmao the cannon change went through so back to ravager all-ins every game I m saving this one so we can both laugh in a couple of months. | ||
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SeriousLus
169 Posts
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On April 30 2016 22:42 Tyrhanius wrote: That's not really the case, it's zerg who build corruptors to deal with liberators not liberators built to deal with corruptors. Else zerg would prefer building mutas. My bad,I should have phrased it like this : you need your liberators to deal with both the ultra and the corruptors. I was talking about the moment when ultras tear the terran ground army apart and the corruptors are sniping every sieged liberators. dunno if you've seen Lambo vs MarineLord game 3 on dusk towers in HSC euro qualifiers, that the kind of engagement I talking about.... | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On April 30 2016 17:53 Tyrhanius wrote: Thors had more range than broodlords on WOL/HOTS. And thors and broodlords have just 1 range difference on lotv, but are faster than broodlords. With micro you could get a brood lord to fire up to 12 range away and with broodlings the thor has no hope in reaching them. With the additional range you can be even farther. Even if you don't micro them, you can make sure you only fight like one thor at a time and pick the terran's army apart because the hitbox for thors make dealing with broodlings a very frustrating experience. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On April 30 2016 22:49 Shield wrote: Just lost a PvT which I was winning very hard up to the point when he decides to get late 4th base, camp and mass these awesome liberators. I made some tempests but that didn't help too much. Maybe some liberator nerf (decreased damage) won't hurt. Protoss is already the least played race. Maybe give people a reason to play it more? did you read the patch notes? | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
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Mojzii1
30 Posts
On May 01 2016 00:08 ihatevideogames wrote: Legit question for higher ranked terrans, cause I'm a low diamond scrub: I like macro games, how am I supossed to go lategame in TvZ now? Should I even bother trying, or should I just learn how to play ultra-aggressive like other terrans? its not gonna be that BAD, you will not be able to play "Macro game" without harras right now, you will have to take a lead early / mid game in economy now to counter late game quick transition , (top master T playing vs gm-s) | ||
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
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weiliem
2070 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
I did and I don't care about liberators' anti-air damage. That's not the problem for protoss. It's the anti-ground damage that makes PvT awful sometimes. On May 01 2016 01:05 weiliem wrote: No nerf to immortal? If you nerf immortal, you definitely have to nerf lurker and possibly liberators' anti-ground damage. | ||
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shid0x
Korea (South)5014 Posts
This isn't really "balance change" anymore, it just feels like random changes and blizzard is like "lets hope to god it looks like we still give a shit". Game's boring. Watching pro is the only fun thing anymore, such change sure as hell wont get old players to come back. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
The cannon change though. I dont even know what to think anymore. Its like they are not even trying to keep us believing. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16647 Posts
On May 01 2016 01:30 RoomOfMush wrote: I can kind of understand the thor change. Terran has two other units with AA splash. Having 3 units is a little bit much. Having said that, I still dont think the thor change will make the unit more useful. The thor has not been great since the very beginning of SC2 and I am afraid it will stay that way. The cannon change though. I dont even know what to think anymore. Its like they are not even trying to keep us believing. i think the Thor is useful for sub 120 APM players. On May 01 2016 01:25 shid0x wrote: oh god the desesperation. This isn't really "balance change" anymore, it just feels like random changes and blizzard is like "lets hope to god it looks like we still give a shit". Game's boring. Watching pro is the only fun thing anymore, such change sure as hell wont get old players to come back. i'm having lots of fun. the silvers and golds i play 2v2s with (who are 10+ years older than me) are having a blast. at my best i'm a diamond player with all 3 races. On May 01 2016 01:25 shid0x wrote: it just feels like this makes your post reak of confirmation bias | ||
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The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On April 30 2016 11:28 MiniFotToss wrote: clearly you haven't been around lately, it was discussed since last week Yeah I've been busy, but this doesn't really make any sense.. at all. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
Let's reduce chitinous plating to +3 armor from +4 armor (if not +2 again like HOTS). We already have the marauder nerfed vs it, I don't know why we want Liberator/Ghost to be the option against that unit. The playstyles just aren't as fun (imo). Let's do something like change muta regen to an upgrade at Hive, and consequently you don't need liberators to shit on on mutas, and Phoenix don't have to be the only counter to them. You could also tone down medivac boost marginally, so the muta nerf doesn't hit as hard. I wish tankivacs were revisited, but that might be dead. The increased damage to compensate was an awesome way to go. Look at immortal barrier, I'd just prefer the immortal from HOTS to be honest. People talk about the "extremes" being what's fun, but I don't know about the current state. I think the ultra vs liberator dynamic bothers me the most. Why not just increase the lockon range for cyclones by +1 default and +2 after the missle upgrade? Gives stalkers a +1 range buff along with blink and make it 200/200. While I'm ranting, stop making each new team combination require 5 placements. Everytime I start a new team and crush silver players, I feel like I'm just disincentivizing them to continue trying to learn and play. If Im' masters in 4 teams already, why start all the way over with a new team... just take the average MMR or 1's or something. There's a lot more, oh well. /rant | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On May 01 2016 03:18 The_Templar wrote: Yeah I've been busy, but this doesn't really make any sense.. at all. It makes perfect sense. Problem: Mutalisk. Solution: Photon Cannon. That is all Blizzard can do these days, since forever as TheDwf so eloquently pointed out. Long gone are the days when control and position of Blink Stalkers and Templar could carry the day. | ||
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Fran_
United States1024 Posts
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flipstar
226 Posts
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necrosexy
451 Posts
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
I'm more then fine with an Ultralisk armor nerf, it's honestly nonsensical to have it alongside the Marauder nerf, if we keep the armor, buff the Marauders so Ghosts and Liberators won't be so crucial in defending the Ultralisk onslaught. I'm the first one to jump for joy at Liberator nerfs, but I'm also realistic to see that they were the OP that Terran needed to stay balanced vs Zerg, at least at the highest level. The Disruptor and Cyclone could sure use some love... | ||
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
On May 01 2016 01:25 shid0x wrote: oh god the desesperation. This isn't really "balance change" anymore, it just feels like random changes and blizzard is like "lets hope to god it looks like we still give a shit". Game's boring. Watching pro is the only fun thing anymore, such change sure as hell wont get old players to come back. Precisely. | ||
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Topin
Peru10045 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 30 2016 20:54 Gwavajuice wrote: Ok, you might not be aware but we have community feedbacks every weekd + various interviews. The Thor AA is a subject that has been talked about since january or something. Second, I'm ready to admit that I'm wrong and that you're a superior player, but I will need better explanations and proofs to admit it. I'm laughable, fine, I like to laugh, just enlighten me... Well theres the strange narrative that you got to freedom zone all your liberators, instead of liberation zone some of them and leaving adequate amounts for anti air. Though in your case, you seem to be making vikings instead of more liberators, in which case, before the patch, the question would had been why do so? | ||
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Legobiten
71 Posts
On May 01 2016 05:42 necrosexy wrote: good news: can't wait for sOs to cannon rush terrans :D Terrans don't have bio air (and bio air isn't a thing when cannon rushes hits zerg) so why would he start doing that because of this patch? | ||
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TheFish7
United States2824 Posts
Can we revert back to hots please? not even kidding, i would definitely play more if we all went back to hots | ||
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midnight999
United States257 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On May 01 2016 03:30 FabledIntegral wrote: They went from such awesome changes to such terrible changes. Let's reduce chitinous plating to +3 armor from +4 armor (if not +2 again like HOTS). We already have the marauder nerfed vs it, I don't know why we want Liberator/Ghost to be the option against that unit. The playstyles just aren't as fun (imo). Let's do something like change muta regen to an upgrade at Hive, and consequently you don't need liberators to shit on on mutas, and Phoenix don't have to be the only counter to them. You could also tone down medivac boost marginally, so the muta nerf doesn't hit as hard. I wish tankivacs were revisited, but that might be dead. The increased damage to compensate was an awesome way to go. Look at immortal barrier, I'd just prefer the immortal from HOTS to be honest. People talk about the "extremes" being what's fun, but I don't know about the current state. I think the ultra vs liberator dynamic bothers me the most. Why not just increase the lockon range for cyclones by +1 default and +2 after the missle upgrade? Gives stalkers a +1 range buff along with blink and make it 200/200. While I'm ranting, stop making each new team combination require 5 placements. Everytime I start a new team and crush silver players, I feel like I'm just disincentivizing them to continue trying to learn and play. If Im' masters in 4 teams already, why start all the way over with a new team... just take the average MMR or 1's or something. There's a lot more, oh well. /rant Because if you're masters and your friend is masters, then you're probably team masters as well. The same may not be true if you're masters but your other friend is 1vs1 bronze. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On May 01 2016 10:07 Shield wrote: Because if you're masters and your friend is masters, then you're probably team masters as well. The same may not be true if you're masters but your other friend is 1vs1 bronze. Yeah - and how often does that happen, relatively. That's why I also mentioned you could take the average MMR of the 1's... so Master + Bronze = Plat/Gold | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On May 01 2016 10:29 FabledIntegral wrote: Yeah - and how often does that happen, relatively. That's why I also mentioned you could take the average MMR of the 1's... so Master + Bronze = Plat/Gold Yes, you said average MMR. Maybe I'm just tired. It sounds ok then. | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States671 Posts
PvZ: More strategic leeway. The change will enable Robo and Gateway Builds without any nerf to Phoenix builds. TvZ: The difficulty of terran in the lategame against mass corruptor broodlord will be increased due to the liberator nerf. The thor will not make up for it. Maybe skilled thorivac can bruise ultras? TvP: Void rays will be stronger against liberators? Thors probably still won't have a place ZvP: Muta switch not game ending as easily. Swarm host builds a possibility to pressure a 3rd while teching into viper. This will be especially effective on maps with gold expansions, where dumping minerals into extra overlords is easier. ZvT: Swarm Hosts not likely to be more useful. Broodlords and corruptors more effective. PvP: No change. TvT: The Thor-i-vac can have very interesting interactions against siege-i-vacs. The attack hits hard, thors have WAaaay more hp, and lifting the thor will allow it to follow a siege tank at equal cost. Plus it can attack the enemy medivac itself. ZvZ: No change. | ||
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DSong
China12 Posts
On the TvZ side, I imagine Thor play to counter Ultralisks will become a good answer. Polt has already shown in his stream several times that Thor + Ghost is quite strong against Ultras and the rest of the Zerg lategame army (though it could be due to Polt's inherent superiority versus the players he faces on the NA ladder). Giving Thors a hard hitting AA attack would allow them to deal better damage to Corruptors and discourage a Broodlord switch, while still faring decently well against Ultralisks. Again, mobility could be a major detriment, but the Medivac may be the answer. I don't see how the Thor AA buff will do anything against Tempests, though. You're going to have a hell of a time getting Thors close enough to take even a single shot at a Tempest. Poking with Thors against kiting Tempests protected by Protoss ground seems virtually impossible, even with medivac play. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On May 01 2016 11:57 ThunderJunk wrote: No Guys, This is Fantastic. PvZ: More strategic leeway. The change will enable Robo and Gateway Builds without any nerf to Phoenix builds. TvZ: The difficulty of terran in the lategame against mass corruptor broodlord will be increased due to the liberator nerf. The thor will not make up for it. Maybe skilled thorivac can bruise ultras? TvP: Void rays will be stronger against liberators? Thors probably still won't have a place ZvP: Muta switch not game ending as easily. Swarm host builds a possibility to pressure a 3rd while teching into viper. This will be especially effective on maps with gold expansions, where dumping minerals into extra overlords is easier. ZvT: Swarm Hosts not likely to be more useful. Broodlords and corruptors more effective. PvP: No change. TvT: The Thor-i-vac can have very interesting interactions against siege-i-vacs. The attack hits hard, thors have WAaaay more hp, and lifting the thor will allow it to follow a siege tank at equal cost. Plus it can attack the enemy medivac itself. ZvZ: No change. Interesting...I'm more along the lines of PvZ: Much less strategic leeway for Zerg when they barely had any in the first place. Mutalisks were already bad against Stargate openers which turned out to be more potent then Gateway centric openers for macro games. This is the nail in the coffin to pretty much never see Spire again except in extreme late game situations in the match up. Protoss were going to open Stargate regardless, Phoenix openers are just damn good, no real denying it, seizes tons of map control, pulls back overlords, kills drones and sometimes Queens very reliably, and can lift Lurkers and Ravagers. TvZ: Liberators definitely needed a nerf but I feel like potentially scaling back the Marauder nerfs might be the way to go. Especially with Immortals overperforming at the top level of play, I don't see a reason why it can't be reverted, Liberators were OP enough to keep Terran strong in the meta, now that Corruptors will (justifiably so but still) beat them down I think Terrans are going to start suffering late game and become extremely aggressive with their builds and the fight will go back down to taking down the Zerg's fourth and going for the throat. | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20282 Posts
Mutalisks were already bad against Stargate openers which turned out to be more potent then Gateway centric openers for macro games Protoss were going to open Stargate regardless Stargate openers are actually not amazing for the first 5 minutes of the game (other openers are both safer and more threatening) but your options are not as good in the 5-12 minute window without it | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On May 01 2016 11:57 ThunderJunk wrote: TvZ: The difficulty of terran in the lategame against mass corruptor broodlord will be increased due to the liberator nerf. The thor will not make up for it. Maybe skilled thorivac can bruise ultras? TvT: The Thor-i-vac can have very interesting interactions against siege-i-vacs. The attack hits hard, thors have WAaaay more hp, and lifting the thor will allow it to follow a siege tank at equal cost. Plus it can attack the enemy medivac itself.. The changed air attack doesn't change these unit relationships. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On April 30 2016 09:24 Charoisaur wrote: changes that are necessary: -liberator range upgrade removed -tempest 6 supply -ultra armor reverted -parasitic bomb removed from the game I know that I am 8 pages late on the reply, but I just have to. NO. Why do so many people want to remove parasitic bomb? It's exactly the thing we need to have in the game - something that is really good against mass air. Mass air is an idiotic strategy that completely ignores all terrain, makes for boring games and really one-dimensional gameplay. So if you desperately want to play that, at least don't cry that you have to split from time to time. Even though the changes are confusing, I must again compliment Blizzard for their stubborn refusal to listen to the nonsene the "community" produces. | ||
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
On May 01 2016 16:11 opisska wrote: I know that I am 8 pages late on the reply, but I just have to. NO. Why do so many people want to remove parasitic bomb? It's exactly the thing we need to have in the game - something that is really good against mass air. Mass air is an idiotic strategy that completely ignores all terrain, makes for boring games and really one-dimensional gameplay. So if you desperately want to play that, at least don't cry that you have to split from time to time. Even though the changes are confusing, I must again compliment Blizzard for their stubborn refusal to listen to the nonsene the "community" produces. If all races had their own parasitic bomb, things would equal out. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On May 01 2016 16:11 opisska wrote: I know that I am 8 pages late on the reply, but I just have to. NO. Why do so many people want to remove parasitic bomb? It's exactly the thing we need to have in the game - something that is really good against mass air. Mass air is an idiotic strategy that completely ignores all terrain, makes for boring games and really one-dimensional gameplay. So if you desperately want to play that, at least don't cry that you have to split from time to time. Why do people want to so significantly nerf liberator AA and why were they listened to? Why were zerg calls to nerf the raven into the ground listened to? Mass air for me, but not for thee? | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On May 01 2016 16:27 TheWinks wrote: Why do people want to so significantly nerf liberator AA and why were they listened to? Why were zerg calls to nerf the raven into the ground listened to? Mass air for me, but not for thee? The raven made it so that terran mass air was the ultimate lategame strategy, I think everybody acknowledged that. After the demise of bl-infestor, zerg never really had an "air deathball". However strong broodlords are, they just don't shoot air and corruptors exist solely for the reason that other races' air units are too strong to be fought from the ground. So there is a crucial difference - both terran and protoss now have air compositions that completely wreck everything on the ground, yet can take a fight against an air army, while zerg has to carefully balance between those two and even if he builds pure corruptors, they are pretty shit anyway. I agree that both terran and protoss could use a good weapon against each other's airball, but arguing that zerg having parasitic bomb is "unfair" is detached from reality. | ||
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Marl
United States692 Posts
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insitelol
845 Posts
This is pathetic to an extent it's becoming comical. The good part about this though is the more DK is dragging us into the abyss the faster he will get fired/sc2 be reworked/anything please but not this. | ||
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
etc etc etc etc etc | ||
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OzhMa
15 Posts
mod edit: link removed User was warned for this post | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
On May 01 2016 16:11 opisska wrote: I know that I am 8 pages late on the reply, but I just have to. NO. Why do so many people want to remove parasitic bomb? It's exactly the thing we need to have in the game - something that is really good against mass air. Mass air is an idiotic strategy that completely ignores all terrain, makes for boring games and really one-dimensional gameplay. So if you desperately want to play that, at least don't cry that you have to split from time to time. Even though the changes are confusing, I must again compliment Blizzard for their stubborn refusal to listen to the nonsene the "community" produces. the thing is parasitic bomb doesn't discourages mass air, it encourages it. if the zerg plays mass broodlords you can't beat them with ground units anymore and have to mass air units. Don't say I desperately want to play mass air because I don't try to fight 15 broodlords with marine thor cyclone or whatever. pls try fighting broodlords with only ground units and then say again that terran shouldn't be allowed to mass air units. | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
As it is right now, Terran is struggling against Protoss. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On May 01 2016 19:14 OzhMa wrote: I think its time my fellow SC2 players. Its time we got rid of david kim. Sign my petition. mod edit: link removed User was warned for this post Well, this was not democratic if he runs a petition and someone removes it from his post. There's nothing wrong with free speech. On May 01 2016 19:33 xelnaga_empire wrote: I'm curioius, how will the Liberator nerf affect PvsT? As it is right now, Terran is struggling against Protoss. Probably not much. It's liberators' anti-ground damage that is the problem for protoss. | ||
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OzhMa
15 Posts
"TL is not your personal army. We do not allow people to post petitions like this. Thanks in advance for your cooperation, Seeker (Do not reply to this message. No one will receive it.)" and this was the message i received how pathetic! My personal army? As you can see the huge majority of the community feels the same as I do and we need to get something done. the diablo 3 community united and got rid of a horrible designer, so why shouldnt we? User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On May 01 2016 19:18 Charoisaur wrote: the thing is parasitic bomb doesn't discourages mass air, it encourages it. if the zerg plays mass broodlords you can't beat them with ground units anymore and have to mass air units. Don't say I desperately want to play mass air because I don't try to fight 15 broodlords with marine thor cyclone or whatever. pls try fighting broodlords with only ground units and then say again that terran shouldn't be allowed to mass air units. If a zerg has 15 broodlords, where does he have the supply for any other army? How does he defend more than two bases? How does he retain any buildings at the time when those broodlords cross the map? It's important that everything has a weakness, but it doesn't always have to be "the other air army is better", because the one-upping cannot be infinte and RPS situations are shallow. And even the pbomb is not a catch-all solution, good players can split, vipers can be killed. I am definitely puzzled by the thor nerf, if anything, GtA needs to be made stronger (and air generally weaker), but removing pbomb is completely backwards. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On May 01 2016 16:11 opisska wrote: I know that I am 8 pages late on the reply, but I just have to. NO. Why do so many people want to remove parasitic bomb? It's exactly the thing we need to have in the game - something that is really good against mass air. Mass air is an idiotic strategy that completely ignores all terrain, makes for boring games and really one-dimensional gameplay. So if you desperately want to play that, at least don't cry that you have to split from time to time. Even though the changes are confusing, I must again compliment Blizzard for their stubborn refusal to listen to the nonsene the "community" produces. While out of principle I agree with you on the front of mass air being stupid, Parasitic bomb is not the way to fix it. The way to fix air is a total reworking of all air units and ground to air interactions and power relations. Parasitic bomb treats the symptoms not the problems, and thus it creates more problems of its own, by actually helping zerg have its own idiotic air armada too. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On May 01 2016 20:15 Destructicon wrote: While out of principle I agree with you on the front of mass air being stupid, Parasitic bomb is not the way to fix it. The way to fix air is a total reworking of all air units and ground to air interactions and power relations. Parasitic bomb treats the symptoms not the problems, and thus it creates more problems of its own, by actually helping zerg have its own idiotic air armada too. I agree with that. Irradiate is already way strong against mutas in BW (only affects biological), parasitic bomb is idiotic and nearly binary as it deals damage faster over a larger area to all types and stays after death. A rework and nerf of air units and GtA is a lot better instead of treating the symptoms indeed. As it stands you just have a spell that deters a terrible symptom in a game that suffers in its air and GtA design and balance, the symptom of clumped overpowered air units dominating as a little air deathspot, still allowing it to happen but threatening it with another overpowered punish move. This is the kind of thing that brings volatility also and rewards attention-traps over strategy or tactics, pretty bad of course for a RTS (attention-traps should have limited consequences and not deter deeper decision making, otherwise you're better off playing a different genre of game that focuses on that). Arguably there are strong attention-traps in BW too such as storm drops and some other things, but in SC2 it is way worse and way out of balance to the overall game. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On May 01 2016 20:26 ProMeTheus112 wrote: I agree with that. Irradiate is already way strong against mutas in BW (only affects biological), parasitic bomb is idiotic and nearly binary as it deals damage faster over a larger area to all types and stays after death. A rework and nerf of air units and GtA is a lot better instead of treating the symptoms indeed. As it stands you just have a spell that deters a terrible symptom in a game that suffers in its air and GtA design and balance, the symptom of clumped overpowered air units dominating as a little air deathball, still allowing it to happen but threatening it with another overpowered punish move. This is the kind of thing that brings volatility also and rewards attention-traps over strategy or tactics. Is pbomb really such a problem at high levels, though? I haven't really seen it that often, which was almost surprising to me, because I built vipers for that sole reason every single game ... but then I see it sometimes and people can split and it doesn't do that much damage. Still it probably acts as a deterent. I am not trying to argue, that there are possibly better ways to break the airball, but given the current state, just removing pbomb without any other big changes doesn't seem to help anything to me. And I personally enjoy it, because I play mostly diamond 2v2s and there every second game there is a toss hiding behind a friend, building the "ultimate army" and now with pbomb, I finally feel like I can really contribute to beating it (or, better, just kill it myself). With this stupid strategy essentially off the table, the rest of the game is more enjoyable. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
On May 01 2016 20:07 opisska wrote: If a zerg has 15 broodlords, where does he have the supply for any other army? How does he defend more than two bases? How does he retain any buildings at the time when those broodlords cross the map? It's important that everything has a weakness, but it doesn't always have to be "the other air army is better", because the one-upping cannot be infinte and RPS situations are shallow. And even the pbomb is not a catch-all solution, good players can split, vipers can be killed. I am definitely puzzled by the thor nerf, if anything, GtA needs to be made stronger (and air generally weaker), but removing pbomb is completely backwards. killing a few bases doesn't do anything if you can't touch their army (wol says hi) and you can only touch their army by spamming air yourself. Parasitic bomb doesn't discourage mass air battles at all it just makes zergs ultimate air army stronger which increases the incentive for zerg to turtle to air. with liberator AA nerfed and raven nerfed I see no reason for PB to still exist except maybe mass voidray in zvp (not sure on that one) | ||
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todespolka
221 Posts
Its a very stupid way of trying to be cool. People will click on it because of wrong reasons. EDIT: Ou, sorry, now i can see the genius in that poll. Really great (not sarcastic). We can ignore all people who clicked on wrong change made because they most certainly clicked on it because of bias and rage. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On May 01 2016 21:18 todespolka wrote: Can you please stop the "wrong change made". Its the same as "bad change", but you dont need to commit and take responsability for your vote. Also it gives no solution. Its a very stupid way of trying to be cool. People will click on it because of wrong reasons. EDIT: Ou, sorry, now i can see the genius in that poll. Really great (not sarcastic). We can ignore all people who clicked on wrong change made because they most certainly clicked on it because of bias and rage. I think there's a difference between "bad change" and "wrong change". Bad change means "this unit/building doesn't need adjustments, but it was changed anyway". Wrong change means that "there is a need for this issue to be resolved, but not the right unit/building was buffed/nerfed". That's how I understand it at least. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
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Aegwynn
Italy460 Posts
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loppy2345
39 Posts
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Legobiten
71 Posts
On May 02 2016 00:03 loppy2345 wrote: Guys, just stop playing SC2 and petition for a SC3 with some decent designers please. It's not David Kim's fault, it's Dustin Browder's fault. If the gameplay has been designed badly, no amount of balance tweaking is going to fix it. Why? Game is awesome in general. Freaking fantastic! | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16647 Posts
On May 02 2016 00:03 loppy2345 wrote: Guys, just stop playing SC2 and petition for a SC3 with some decent designers please. It's not David Kim's fault, it's Dustin Browder's fault. If the gameplay has been designed badly, no amount of balance tweaking is going to fix it. Browder is very, very good. RA2 was very good and so is SC2. Problem is that Rob Pardo is like the best game designer in the history of anything, anywhere. As good as Sc2 is.. and it is very good.... Brood War is... better. the day they pulled Rob Pardo off of SC2 is the day its fate was sealed as a less than all-time-great game. It's telling in the IGN ranking of Blizzard games its Pardo's stuff at the top. i'm still having lots of fun with SC2.... and Sigaty already announced nothing new is competing with SC2 for 10 years. So your wait for SC3 is going to be a long one. I don't think that Blizzard owes it to RTS fans to put their best guys on a franchise that doesn't even make 10% of what their highest revenue stuff makes. RTS fans are great at making forum posts and lousy at spending money. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On May 02 2016 00:03 loppy2345 wrote: Guys, just stop playing SC2 and petition for a SC3 with some decent designers please. It's not David Kim's fault, it's Dustin Browder's fault. If the gameplay has been designed badly, no amount of balance tweaking is going to fix it. You realize browder hasn't been working on SC2 since like mid hots, right? He's working on heroes. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On May 02 2016 01:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote: ... RTS fans are great at making forum rants and lousy at spending money. FTFY | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
 Well I don't believe the lead designer is the only person who decides of design, but since browder has left we've seen disruptors (horrible random volatility), adepts with invulnerable harrass/rush style that make zealots kinda irrelevant, ravagers with their annoying "skill shot" mostly just make you need to move back and forth repeatedly (while invalidating siege tank), lurkers on steroids (well I guess they have to be since the game is on steroids) liberators with horrible looking liberation zones (really don't feel this stuff while siege tank is... ground units are too weak against liberators, and shouldn't need to view target circles its ugly), oh and tankivacs, and cyclone not even functionnal.. don't rly feel much of the rest of the stuff either, like imba ultralisks need to be sniped by hardcounters pricy ghosts or liberation zones, stale match ups, lol @oracles, streamlined early game cause you have no choice but to go for 12 workers openings... oh the reapers grenade but I guess that's nearly irrelevant... oh and the pylon overcharge...... damn the list is long and most of these things are rly bad........ | ||
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NomaKasd
Scotland65 Posts
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
On May 02 2016 02:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote: Well I don't know if the lead designer is the only person who decides of design, but since browder has left we've seen ... We've also seen a BW-like economy, the semi-removal of boring or skill-less or deathball-favoring units like the Colossus and Swarm Host, the speeding up of the early game, less reliance on tier 3 AoE units for Protoss, and so on. LotV has some problems, but overall it's much better than WoL and HotS. Sometimes I wonder what SC2's popularity would be like right now if LotV had been the initial game. | ||
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SwiftCrane
26 Posts
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On May 02 2016 03:03 Empirimancer wrote: We've also seen a BW-like economy, the semi-removal of boring or skill-less or deathball-favoring units like the Colossus and Swarm Host, the speeding up of the early game, less reliance on tier 3 AoE units for Protoss, and so on. LotV has some problems, but overall it's much better than WoL and HotS. Sometimes I wonder what SC2's popularity would be like right now if LotV had been the initial game. It wouldn't have made any difference. SC2 is unpopular because it is too difficult and its learning curve too long, and LOTV made both of these things worse. | ||
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loppy2345
39 Posts
On May 02 2016 02:02 InfCereal wrote: You realize browder hasn't been working on SC2 since like mid hots, right? He's working on heroes. SC2 game design was flawed from WoL, and once you start with a flawed design, it's impossible to fix without redesigning nearly all the units. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On May 02 2016 03:12 SwiftCrane wrote: Will blizzard really go through with these changes with such negative feedback? Perhaps they think they know what the community likes more than the community does. I mean this happened, so anything is possible.... :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuOYmqSF6OQ wow they made a lawsuit move to shutdown nostalrius.... lol fans had built a server based on the better older version of wow (vanilla, from before activision merged with blizzard) and they had to lawsuit-kill it cause people were flowing back to it in big numbers as they learned of it. nearly 1 million gamer accounts lost^^ thanks actibli$^^ | ||
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Marl
United States692 Posts
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WeddingEpisode
United States356 Posts
Maps are x- and y- axis lanes; they're like engagement test maps. Games play out too fragile-like; Tier 2 and 3 come so quickly, etc... | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On May 02 2016 03:03 Empirimancer wrote: We've also seen a BW-like economy, There is nothing BW-like with the LotV economy. I know BW, and LotV aint it. On May 02 2016 03:03 Empirimancer wrote: the semi-removal of boring or skill-less or deathball-favoring units like the Colossus and Swarm Host, Units that they previously thought up and added to the game. Units that had been critisized since day 1. On May 02 2016 03:03 Empirimancer wrote: the speeding up of the early game, Which some people also dont like. On May 02 2016 03:03 Empirimancer wrote: LotV has some problems, but overall it's much better than WoL and HotS. Sometimes I wonder what SC2's popularity would be like right now if LotV had been the initial game. Believe it or not but some people do not agree with your opinion. To me SC2 got worse with each new iteration. It is true though that LotV tried to go back to the BW roots more then the other expansions. So perhaps it would have been more positively received if it came out first. | ||
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Comedy
455 Posts
Unfortunately his thinking patterns are very wrong, but this is nothing new and he has proven it again and again. At this point, I would love a new person doing the job. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
I know they talk alot, but still, they said they might do bigger changes in the future and thats what hit me. If they truly believe this themself then they cant really believe this game is a top notch game, but since they are a company there is no way they would tell this but instead keep it internally. Ofcourse if nothing happens then they might actually believe this game is top notch. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On May 02 2016 06:27 Foxxan wrote: well personally i really think some devs do not found this game top notch by any mean I know they talk alot, but still, they said they might do bigger changes in the future and thats what hit me. If they truly believe this themself then they cant really believe this game is a top notch game, but since they are a company there is no way they would tell this but instead keep it internally. Ofcourse if nothing happens then they might actually believe this game is top notch. I don't think Blizzard believe they've done their job perfectly or that SC2 is going well. I guess Hearthstone, Heroes of the Storm and Overwatch are their new attempt to adapt to market. | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On May 02 2016 05:35 Comedy wrote: You can get in the brain of david kim through these changes. Unfortunately his thinking patterns are very wrong, but this is nothing new and he has proven it again and again. At this point, I would love a new person doing the job. I'll be the first to admit, designing a really great game like BW is hard. But when you get everything right, you have a game so good it can create an entire new industry of sports. Which is why I think it's totally stupid to deviate so far from the formula and the things that made it successful. Odds are, you're going to fail and that's exactly what happened. Compare this with CSGO. Yes there are differences with 1.6 but it wasn't massively rebalanced and reshuffled like SC2. As a result it's huge and it's even getting a nationally televised league on TBS now. Unfortunately we are now in the glorious era of Activision Blizzard. Far from learning from their mistakes we get things like Nostalrius to rub salt in the wounds. Like SC2 it appears they are taking another once-great game and running it into the ground. Blizzard still has a lot of fanboys so I'm sure Overwatch will make some money and then be promptly forgotten like most other games, but I'm not one of them anymore. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On May 02 2016 04:34 WeddingEpisode wrote: Massive Units are too fast, in fact all units' speeds are too uniform. Maps are x- and y- axis lanes; they're like engagement test maps. Games play out too fragile-like; Tier 2 and 3 come so quickly, etc... Tier 3 comes so quickly, tier 2 doesn't even happen | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20282 Posts
On May 02 2016 08:10 InfCereal wrote: Tier 3 comes so quickly, tier 2 doesn't even happen Sure it does t2 includes a ton of popular units like hydralisk, tank, phoenix, immortal etc | ||
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Parser
Italy87 Posts
On May 02 2016 07:38 BaronVonOwn wrote: I'll be the first to admit, designing a really great game like BW is hard. But when you get everything right, you have a game so good it can create an entire new industry of sports. Which is why I think it's totally stupid to deviate so far from the formula and the things that made it successful. Odds are, you're going to fail and that's exactly what happened. Compare this with CSGO. Yes there are differences with 1.6 but it wasn't massively rebalanced and reshuffled like SC2. As a result it's huge and it's even getting a nationally televised league on TBS now. Unfortunately we are now in the glorious era of Activision Blizzard. Far from learning from their mistakes we get things like Nostalrius to rub salt in the wounds. Like SC2 it appears they are taking another once-great game and running it into the ground. Blizzard still has a lot of fanboys so I'm sure Overwatch will make some money and then be promptly forgotten like most other games, but I'm not one of them anymore. Well, BW was popular only in korea at the time that SC2 came out. If SC2 would have been like BW I think it would have seen no success in the western community. Sure BW was a great game, it had no deathball problem, maybe its economy was better (i personally do not think so) but the point is that in BW the player is costantly fighting the UI and today a game like that will never be a casual success. So something had to be changed. You can debate if SC2 had the right changes or not, but saying that Blizz should have simply remade BW does not seem the answer. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On May 02 2016 15:32 Parser wrote: Well, BW was popular only in korea at the time that SC2 came out. If SC2 would have been like BW I think it would have seen no success in the western community. Sure BW was a great game, it had no deathball problem, maybe its economy was better (i personally do not think so) but the point is that in BW the player is costantly fighting the UI and today a game like that will never be a casual success. So something had to be changed. You can debate if SC2 had the right changes or not, but saying that Blizz should have simply remade BW does not seem the answer. SC1 was a massive hit in the west too. When it came out like 20 years ago. I played the game as a kid a lot and I am sure others did too. Maybe it wasnt a big esports hit but you have to keep in mind that there wasnt really any esports in the west at that time. And there are deathballs in BW. Its a very important aspect of the game. Terran mech and protoss in general is all about death balls. But they work differently and you can actually deal with them. I would even go as far as saying that death ball battles are my favorites in BW. Seeing a never ending tank line clash with a totally OP zerg swarm or getting blasted by zealot bombs, storms and stasis is just awesome. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
Believe it or not but some people do not agree with your opinion. To me SC2 got worse with each new iteration. It is true though that LotV tried to go back to the BW roots more then the other expansions. So perhaps it would have been more positively received if it came out first. I completely disagree that in LotV they tried to go to BW roots. If anything they went further and further away from it. To me, the end of HotS was the best era. If only Vipers were fixed to help zerg vs Mech, Protoss death ball issue addressed along with Skytoss, together with Mech viability in TvP. HotS would have been the closest to BW among the 3 expansions. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 02 2016 16:06 Wrath wrote: I completely disagree that in LotV they tried to go to BW roots. If anything they went further and further away from it. To me, the end of HotS was the best era. If only Vipers were fixed to help zerg vs Mech, Protoss death ball issue addressed along with Skytoss, together with Mech viability in TvP. HotS would have been the closest to BW among the 3 expansions. Most of it happened because of miscommunication. People wanted more micro for Protoss. What have we received? A skill button for every unit in Protoss arsenal. Pressing buttons = micro. Who cares, people wnated that awesome stalker micro on some other units... And we can go on like that, it's sad but it won't be changed because big ass redesign isn't a thing | ||
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Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
On May 02 2016 08:10 InfCereal wrote: Tier 3 comes so quickly, tier 2 doesn't even happen Well, Zest did crush TY with pure gateway units in 4 games. I love how TvP is so much about the basic units (Zealots, Stalkers, Adepts vs Marine + Marauder) with both sides having support units (medivacs / Libs / Mines vs Immortal and Warp Prism). Compared to HoTS when Protoss just relied on Collosus and storm to stand a chance, it is really refreshing to see the gateway units stand their ground vs bio. However, Ultras comes way to fast in my opinion in TvZ. In TvT I dont think a single T3 unit is used :D | ||
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Kiwan
Australia36 Posts
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SpiritOfChicago
19 Posts
As for most commenters on this thread, you are whiners. Pathetic, negative-nancy-whiners. For people like you, there is always something wrong. I don't want to imagine what would happen if Blizzard listened to any of you. User was warned for this post | ||
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SpiritOfChicago
19 Posts
On May 02 2016 17:40 Kiwan wrote: I think overall it's a good patch. I would like to see the thor receive an extra armour though. It would make it such a better tanking unit, and at it's cost and immobility it needs to be. I would like to agree with you, Mister. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On May 02 2016 18:07 SpiritOfChicago wrote: I agree with all changes Blizzard is making. THey put a lot of thought into it, it seems. As for most commenters on this thread, you are whiners. Pathetic, negative-nancy-whiners. For people like you, there is always something wrong. I don't want to imagine what would happen if Blizzard listened to any of you. What do you mean? Any criticism is "whining" to you? | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
On May 02 2016 03:03 Empirimancer wrote: We've also seen a BW-like economy, the semi-removal of boring or skill-less or deathball-favoring units like the Colossus and Swarm Host, the speeding up of the early game, less reliance on tier 3 AoE units for Protoss, and so on. LotV has some problems, but overall it's much better than WoL and HotS. Sometimes I wonder what SC2's popularity would be like right now if LotV had been the initial game. The current economy is nothing like bw's economy. As a zerg in brood war I can literally be on 6-7 mining bases with 70-80 drones. There's no such thing in Sc2. Bases also last a long, long time in brood war. On average a fully saturated base lasts about 18-20 minutes. Tell me again how the economies are even remotely similar? Maybe the 12 worker starts? Precisely the opposite of brood war where you start with 4 workers and it actually takes time to get tier 2 and tier 3 units out? Speeding up the early game isn't necessarily a good thing. Less distinct game phases. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
Also, the Hydra is the most glaring example of a unit that has a very narrow window of time where it's useful. Zerg suffers a lot from this: Roaches/ravagers become just meatshields in the lategame because they have slow rate of fire; lings and hydras are just too squishy. Would love to see this generalist midgame unit become something useful in the lategame instead of being phased out by specialist units (corruptors, ultras, vipers, broodlors, infestors...). To achieve that, Hydras could get a Hive tech upgrade that gives them like +15hp, allowing them to survive a Lib shot. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On May 02 2016 15:32 Parser wrote: Well, BW was popular only in korea at the time that SC2 came out. If SC2 would have been like BW I think it would have seen no success in the western community. Sure BW was a great game, it had no deathball problem, maybe its economy was better (i personally do not think so) but the point is that in BW the player is costantly fighting the UI and today a game like that will never be a casual success. So something had to be changed. You can debate if SC2 had the right changes or not, but saying that Blizz should have simply remade BW does not seem the answer. But he didnt say THEY SHOULD REMAKE BW. He said they should make a RTS more like BW. And this DOES NOT mean making it so you fight the u.i. Thats not what makes BW the good RTS it is/was. | ||
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BigRedDog
461 Posts
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On May 02 2016 20:52 Foxxan wrote: But he didnt say THEY SHOULD REMAKE BW. He said they should make a RTS more like BW. And this DOES NOT mean making it so you fight the u.i. Thats not what makes BW the good RTS it is/was. Correct. There's a lot to like about SC2, especially the better interface. I even like a lot of the WoL units (HOTS and LOTV units can all go eat a dick). The problem is they went too far and changed core gameplay and balance. I pointed to CSGO as an example of how to do it right. I feel like some of the changes in SC2 would be the equivalent of nerfing the AWP below 100 damage or doubling the amount of money you get each round. That would be an abomination to the fans and CSGO would have died alone. They obviously wanted SC2 to be an e$port game so they could rake in the sponsorship dollars but when they made SC2 they did it like a video game company rather than a governing body for a sport. If you look at real sports, there are little tweaks here and there but never any huge changes. For example the NFL changed the distance for extra points last year. It makes extra points a bit more interesting but it's not something that revolutionized the game and fractured the community. In fact it had broad acceptance by the football community unlike many SC2 changes. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On May 02 2016 16:06 Wrath wrote: I completely disagree that in LotV they tried to go to BW roots. If anything they went further and further away from it. To me, the end of HotS was the best era. If only Vipers were fixed to help zerg vs Mech, Protoss death ball issue addressed along with Skytoss, together with Mech viability in TvP. HotS would have been the closest to BW among the 3 expansions. Well, lets see: Disruptor == Reaver Liberator == Valkyrie + ? Lurker == Lurker It looks to me like all races have gotten some BW back. | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
Is this another 'don't let them get there :^)' era? | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On May 02 2016 22:55 BigRedDog wrote: It is hard to compare bw w sc2 given that it took years for bw to be developed and balanced for what it is. So unless you give the same time, to keep saying how good BW is comparing apples and oranges. Oh yeah? The last BW balance update was 1.08 (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Patch_1.08 ) which was released 2001-05-20 according to Liquipedia. This means balance was static after only 3 years (BW was released November 30, 1998). SC2 is now more then 5 years old and they are still changing the balance. By your logic SC2 should be much more refined then BW by now. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On May 02 2016 23:05 RoomOfMush wrote: Oh yeah? The last BW balance update was 1.08 (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Patch_1.08 ) which was released 2001-05-20 according to Liquipedia. This means balance was static after only 3 years (BW was released November 30, 1998). SC2 is now more then 5 years old and they are still changing the balance. By your logic SC2 should be much more refined then BW by now. BW was an expansion, like LoTV. SC2 LOTV balance is still in its infant stages by comparison. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
On May 02 2016 23:00 ihatevideogames wrote: So how is terran supossed to play vs Z lategame now? If it gets to a point where we're both heading towards maxed lategame scenario, what is T supossed to do? Is this another 'don't let them get there :^)' era? it remains to be seen if you can beat broodlords with thors | ||
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Legobiten
71 Posts
On May 02 2016 20:43 Salteador Neo wrote: Also, the Hydra is the most glaring example of a unit that has a very narrow window of time where it's useful. Zerg suffers a lot from this: Roaches/ravagers become just meatshields in the lategame because they have slow rate of fire; lings and hydras are just too squishy. Would love to see this generalist midgame unit become something useful in the lategame instead of being phased out by specialist units (corruptors, ultras, vipers, broodlors, infestors...). To achieve that, Hydras could get a Hive tech upgrade that gives them like +15hp, allowing them to survive a Lib shot. Hydras and ling (+banes) is the current meta vs. protoss (zealot, archon, immortal). Very nice! Squishy? That's zerg in a nutshell (except ultras). And in ZvZ hydras can be really important mid-late game. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On May 02 2016 23:48 Legobiten wrote: Hydras and ling (+banes) is the current meta vs. protoss (zealot, archon, immortal). Very nice! Squishy? That's zerg in a nutshell (except ultras). And in ZvZ hydras can be really important mid-late game. hydra/bane is an all-in vs double stargate openings, hydras have always sucked outside of the timing windows and now that ravagers do almost everything they do but better, their sucking is more visible having said that, they do have their uses in all matchups indeed, so why change them? | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On May 02 2016 23:48 Charoisaur wrote: it remains to be seen if you can beat broodlords with thors I don't think this isn't going to be the biggest problem and I hope and pray that I'm not wrong about that. It's going to be corruptors mopping up liberators and then ultras plowing through everything. If I'm wrong and we have literally lotv style infestor/broodlord gameplay, it will do immense damage to the game. | ||
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ohmylanta1003
United States128 Posts
On April 30 2016 15:50 Topdoller wrote: Going down the same route as previous expansions. Strange fixes and +10 to this and +5 that that against various units in order to fix perceived problems This game is dead Comments like this should just lead to a straight up ban. | ||
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Comedy
455 Posts
On May 02 2016 23:00 ihatevideogames wrote: So how is terran supossed to play vs Z lategame now? If it gets to a point where we're both heading towards maxed lategame scenario, what is T supossed to do? Is this another 'don't let them get there :^)' era? that's what ZvP is like. and I agree with you this nerf to liberators makes them too bad vs corrupters 100%. ------- David Kim does not understand it's not the immortal that might be the problem ( he keeps repeating this) It's the tempest/oracle/templar/archon air death ball thats way too cost efficient vs Zerg. | ||
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Comedy
455 Posts
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ohmylanta1003
United States128 Posts
On April 30 2016 22:19 Mojzii1 wrote: Every expansion its like: T being quite OP, and win tournaments *nerfs* T being balanced, and getting into finals by some good players like mvp etc. *nerfs*, T being underpowered and rarely getting into tournaments *nerfs* and then PvZ, PvP, ZvZ on every single stream. AND THEN YOU ARE LIKE "WHY SPONSORS DOES NOT SUPPORT SC2 TEAM AND VIEWERSHIP SO LOW" .. At least in Korea, T almost never gets to the finals. It's only Innovation... | ||
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ionONE
Germany605 Posts
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ohmylanta1003
United States128 Posts
On May 01 2016 10:02 TheFish7 wrote: damn this patch is a bunch of nonsensical band-aids. It's like lotv never made it out of beta. Can we revert back to hots please? not even kidding, i would definitely play more if we all went back to hots LOTV is fucking incredible. Don't know why the hell you'd want to downgrade. | ||
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Topher_Doll
United States76 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
I don't remember the last time I fought corruptors with liberators and won the game. the only thing that this really effects is marus (and avilos :D) mass liberator style. the thor buff is nice and might even enable mech in tvz if the numbers are strong enough. in tvp there's still no answer to tempests for mech. + Show Spoiler + I'm salty because I used thors vs ling bane muta which isn't possible anymore but I guess I have to adapt.. | ||
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Sogetsu
514 Posts
EDIT: Link to BNet Forums http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/20743554879 | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
I swear it feels like there is just one guy working part time on SC2 design and balance. It's sad to see SC2 in this state. | ||
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ionONE
Germany605 Posts
He is balancing the game since 2010 or smth and probably knows the consequences if he drops the patch pre event. I don´t get. | ||
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
On May 02 2016 23:00 ihatevideogames wrote: So how is terran supossed to play vs Z lategame now? If it gets to a point where we're both heading towards maxed lategame scenario, what is T supossed to do? Is this another 'don't let them get there :^)' era? Would've thought protoss will be even more impossible. | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
Thors will now be useless against Mutas. We're left with WMs which are too stationary to defend effectively vs those highspeed fast regen Mutas and we have Liberators. Liberators get nerfed into the ground vs armored air though. Corruptors will eat them alive. Mech is now even more forced into building a wide array of unit types that try to cover each other's weaknesses, ending up with an army that could fight everything, but nothing really well. Just concentrating on one will leave huge holes, so the next techswitch of the opponent will kill you. Leaving the Thor as is and giving the Cyclone a buff, so it can be the anti-armored-air unit, would be the better solution imo (Liberator could be nerfed in that case even). | ||
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tokinho
United States785 Posts
More specifically then, Thors, need a mechanic to be better not so much this sort of a buff. The scenario that plays out is like the maru thor rushes in lotv or the old Bbyong mech games. The micro actions are lift, adjust camera, move, drop, select thors, target, and abort is a second camera action. Its 5-6 actions to move the thor into position to damage with 2 camera actions to abort to counter the late game aoe of the tempests and brood lords which is countered by a single micro action of target fire on the medivac by zerg, or feedback onto the medivac by templar as protoss, or target fired by protoss tempests. What is actually needed for thors to be useful with this is a single micro action with the thors so that when thors use an ability the medivacs pick them up. move them into range, drop them and the thors shoot if this were an upgrade maybe thors would make more sense, but given immortals. They still will be rare TvP and given the micro actions of the unit, i doubt you'd see them used TvZ. This is effectively then a buff TvT to target tanks, and not necessarily useful in other places even with the huge buff. | ||
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tokinho
United States785 Posts
On April 30 2016 09:01 [PkF] Wire wrote: Photon Cannon = definitely wrong change made. Not only does this change kills mutalisks, it also makes mothership + air + cannons/storm even more unbreakable. Really not a fine change. The other ones should be more or less harmless. +1 somebody that understands PvX late game. What is needed more for protoss is a slow on the mutalisks. Protoss will never have enough minerals for this to be effectively viable. I want to remind people the cannon buff suggestion came from a player that has never ever once played a ladder game. See link for proof. | ||
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Dabble
39 Posts
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Epitoi
20 Posts
just have a try with it, I share my build : 2facto > 4thors rush with marines support seems to be an awesome midgame push 14depot 16rax 18CC marine OC 2x gas marine depot, 3rd gas before CC @natual is finished <> @100gas factory +reactor (after3marines) > 2 mines (3:20, set them in front vs Z and in mineral line vs T and P) @100% factory build 2nd factory + armory +techlab on rax switch back rax on reactor and factory on techlab... build 2 thors asap and +1 def (4:20) push with 4 thors and marines, and with 12-16 scvs on auto repair http://ggtracker.com/matches/6625218 http://ggtracker.com/matches/6625219 | ||
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Tankz123
Denmark228 Posts
On May 03 2016 18:49 Epitoi wrote: Stop whining fellow terrans ! In my opinio the new thor destroys immortals (35+15 damage) and armored units. so it is a mech buff no ? just have a try with it, I share my build : 2facto > 4thors rush with marines support seems to be an awesome midgame push 14depot 16rax 18CC marine OC 2x gas marine depot, 3rd gas before CC @natual is finished <> @100gas factory +reactor (after3marines) > 2 mines (3:20, set them in front vs Z and in mineral line vs T and P) @100% factory build 2nd factory + armory +techlab on rax switch back rax on reactor and factory on techlab... build 2 thors asap and +1 def (4:20) push with 4 thors and marines, and with 12-16 scvs on auto repair http://ggtracker.com/matches/6625218 http://ggtracker.com/matches/6625219 last time i checked immortals weren't flying units. | ||
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Epitoi
20 Posts
On May 03 2016 18:53 Tankz123 wrote: last time i checked immortals weren't flying units. 1st point : I said stop whining. 2nd point : Thors have different purpose NOW. they destroy everything that is armored so use them on that purpose ! that's it. Stop talking about late game, just win before it happens. 3rd point : watch replay, try the build, developp it, enjoy. 4th point : restart from 1st point. | ||
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JayuSC2
Austria32 Posts
PS: Is the patch out on EU? | ||
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heqat
Switzerland96 Posts
On May 03 2016 19:39 JayuSC2 wrote: I don't understand why there would be any reason to nerf mutalisks against P. Actually P even got a buff against Mutalisks since LOTV, with the pylon cannons. Why is it suddenly a problem when it wasn't in HOTS? Yea, that's weird. I don't think it will change anything to the current meta. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On May 03 2016 18:58 Epitoi wrote: 1st point : I said stop whining. 2nd point : Thors have different purpose NOW. they destroy everything that is armored so use them on that purpose ! that's it. Stop talking about late game, just win before it happens. 3rd point : watch replay, try the build, developp it, enjoy. 4th point : restart from 1st point. But only the anti air attack was changed. So it does not affect the interaction of Thors and Immortals. Your push might be good but it's the same as before the patch. It's still a mech buff though, at least in tvt, since Liberators (they are one of the main reasons why mech was not viable in tvt) will be easier to deal with. Vikings are better against Liberators now since they take less damage and Thors can also snipe them faster. I actually like the Terran changes, but the cannon and SH changes seem really weird and don't make sense to me. | ||
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Tankz123
Denmark228 Posts
On May 03 2016 18:58 Epitoi wrote: 1st point : I said stop whining. 2nd point : Thors have different purpose NOW. they destroy everything that is armored so use them on that purpose ! that's it. Stop talking about late game, just win before it happens. 3rd point : watch replay, try the build, developp it, enjoy. 4th point : restart from 1st point. 1: I'm not, i just pointed out an obvious flaw in your "logic" of this "buff" 2: Again, they do nothing different to ground units. 3: Two replays of you all-inned isnt gonna convince me sorry. 4: no On a serious note, i doubt the thor change will have much affect at all for "mech", because it doesnt solve the fundamental issues of it. Mass thor isnt gonna shut down carriers, tempest, BL's, etc. its still gonna be the same stomp as usual. Overall the patch seems rather "meh", but we'll have to wait and see what pro players can conjure out of this. | ||
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RichardNPL
185 Posts
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raff100
498 Posts
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
On May 03 2016 17:16 Dabble wrote: I like the swarmhost change because it makes it easier to build a few swarmhosts, snipe a building or tech (which seems to be their role now), and then allow them to die and remax. The lower cost makes the penalty for losing them not as big a deal and since they're a unit in this situation you only need temporarily, and not in max-on-max army fights, the supply hit doesn't matter as much either. 150/75 @ 4 supply is hardly a cheap disposable unit. Its a shit change for a shit unit. They should remove it and give people who bought HoTS a refund | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On May 03 2016 16:42 tokinho wrote: +1 somebody that understands PvX late game. What is needed more for protoss is a slow on the mutalisks. Protoss will never have enough minerals for this to be effectively viable. I want to remind people the cannon buff suggestion came from a player that has never ever once played a ladder game. See link for proof. Or, Blizzard though it was a good idea and made a change that happened to be what someone else had suggested. Just because someone else suggested it doesn't mean that Blizzard was swayed by that person. Also, FYI, the person who suggested it does have career games logged. I'm not saying the change is the right change, but remember that people thought the adept change wasn't enough, and it certainly brought up the T winrates vs Protoss. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On May 04 2016 01:35 Topdoller wrote: 150/75 @ 4 supply is hardly a cheap disposable unit. Its a shit change for a shit unit. They should remove it and give people who bought HoTS a refund Nobody bought hots for the swarm hosts. 99% of people didn't even buy it for the multiplayer. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/20743714991 Hey everyone. We wanted to issue a community feedback update early this week after seeing your feedback around the planned patch we were going to apply today. After reading your feedback, it seemed pretty clear that there is not much support for the proposed changes, so we decided to cancel this week’s balance update and get into more details of what’s happening because community feedback around the changes seems to have changed completely this week. Just a couple weeks ago when we started testing the latest changes, the perception seemed very positive. However, this week, what we’re seeing is completely different. We have some guesses as to why this happened as well as some proposals on how to improve our process going forward, but let’s talk about the specific changes. Protoss Buff vs. Mutalisks Previously, this topic seemed to be clearly important to the community, but it seems to have completely changed the other way. Even though Mutalisks are clearly not an issue at the top of pro level, we believed it was a heavy community issue, so we located a change that would have minimal impact at the pro lvl, while looking to help the average skilled player. We’re not exactly sure why the major switch happened here, but we wonder if a lot of it is the meta game having shifted from Protoss being underpowered against Zerg to the matchup being a lot more even than we initially believed. Other changes The other changes we believe are more straight forward. Like many of you point out, we probably didn’t have enough testing time on the other changes and we should gather more feedback over the next week or two before committing to these changes. Also, there seemed to be less of an understanding as to why we have been moving the way we have with testing out different changes. We wonder if many players out there are getting left behind or stuck in an old line of thinking while another group has moved on. We believe this creates a lot of confusion, and we believe this is a major flaw in our current process which we would like to improve going forward. Communication Process Improvements There are a few things that we think we can improve. First, we believe we can be more proactive about gauging the community’s stance on specific topics. At regular intervals, we would like to begin asking you guys if we are hearing you correctly. This will allow us to double check and make sure there hasn’t been a major change in what the community wants, or that we’re not misunderstanding you. Second, we can do better on providing a “post-mortem” for our Balance Test Map changes to analyze which changes were effective or not effective. This should also help us keep moving at a similar pace in terms of reasoning. Third, we will try to be more concise with our messaging to be as clear as possible. Because we tried to get into every detail of every reasoning, we believe this caused some confusion due to how much information we were giving in such short time periods. Instead, we would like to do more updates every week, but each update will be smaller with less details to help with this issue. If there are more suggestions here, we can definitely look into further improvements to our current process. Thanks for your thoughts and feedback, we’ll have more to discuss as the week continues. Next Balance Patch We will have more details coming later this week, and a new test map up early the week after. We are definitely aiming for around 5/22 ~ 5/23 to solidify many of the changes to patch to the live game so let's stay focused both on discussions as well as playtesting as soon as the test map is up early next week. We're pushing very hard on this front not just on the community side but working very heavily with the pro players as well to nail this down. Besides the issues we're currently working through, the other issues we're currently thinking on are: potential immortal nerfs due to heavy pro player feedback around this being an absolute necessity, potential colossus buffs, and Cyclone changes. | ||
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TKiFenris
Canada5 Posts
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On May 04 2016 03:30 Musicus wrote: There has been an update. The patch is delayed until May 22 and they want to change the feedback process. They saw that the community is not happy with most changes and there seems to be miscommunication/confusion. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/20743714991 I'd say there is misalignment between what DK wants and what the community wants. Kims solution is often times a band aid, rather then fixing the core problems (Mutas, photon pylons); styles of play that he has a negative bias for(mech); etc. The communication is also bad because he tries to put this war of vision between him and the SC2 fans on simple miscommunication. He is not wrong or at odds with the player base, we are just confused you see. We are "stuck in an old way of thinking (when we disagree with him)" And i thought Browder was bad lol | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2576 Posts
This smacks to me of mob rule and design by committee. There is absolutely a place in design for being open to community feedback and adopting good ideas from the outside, but there has got to be a captain in charge of the ship with a strong vision. I'm very concerned that the SC2 team seems to be lacking that vision and is making major design decisions based on the loudest voices in their community forums. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On May 04 2016 04:43 Charoisaur wrote: I don't think the changes are that bad but many people are frustrated because DK keeps ignoring the real issues like 8 armor ultras, 4 supply tempests, parasitic bomb and tankivacs. every community update a lot of people mention those things but DK keeps ignoring it and doesn't do anything to fix them. And once he would tackle those things a lot of people would come out and say that 8 armor ultras are no longer a problem and it's good if pure bio can't deal with them unless the T is already ahead, that tankivacs are awesome and that parabomb is already too weak since the nerf. The community does not just have one opinion and it's impossible to please everybody. Once they intend to change something after listening to feedback from one side, the other side will come out and complain. I think the community only agrees on one thing, namely that bandaid changes, like the cannon buff which came out of nowhere, are bad. | ||
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NicolasJohnson
30 Posts
On May 04 2016 04:43 Charoisaur wrote: I don't think the changes are that bad but many people are frustrated because DK keeps ignoring the real issues like 8 armor ultras, 4 supply tempests, parasitic bomb and tankivacs. every community update a lot of people mention those things but DK keeps ignoring it and doesn't do anything to fix them. What's the deal with parasitic bomb ? It allows a player of superior skill to beat a full air army. If players of equal skill engage, then the terran player can snipe the vipers (the AI focuses them anyway with the other units) and the protoss player feedbacks them. Without parasitic bomb, the zerg player has to build spores everywhere and turtle, while they don't have the tools to do it cost effectively (since the swarm host has been dismantled, and for good reason). | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
Swarmhost completly usless, the possibility of mutas forcing P into certain predictable situations, Liberators strong AA and Thors standing usless next to em. But the solutions of David are often heardbreaking and not understandable: Cheapter Swarmhosts that take up even more supply are no answer, as Swarmhost are one of the Zerg units you do not throw away to remix in something different but you use them over time again and again. The Cannons are a really band aid fix, as the problem is not the stuff from protoss that shoots up, but that Mutas can take damage for free and there is no risk for the high reward you get with their harass. The new Thor does not help agains capital ships. They never get in range of Broodlords, they do not deal enough damage to take out corrupters to protect the nerfed liberators, they cant get into range of the tempest and even the carrier can outmanouver em. As also 30+15 is not enough damage for a 6 supply, 2 sec single target attack. Not to forget that their ground attack gets completly useless against small units in high numbers. All of these units could be patched, but not in the way David wants em to patch and thus people have been cheering for David to do something, but his solutions... I dont know what he is doing in his internal testing. | ||
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bjornkavist
Canada1235 Posts
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1652 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
On May 04 2016 05:12 Musicus wrote: And once he would tackle those things a lot of people would come out and say that 8 armor ultras are no longer a problem and it's good if pure bio can't deal with them unless the T is already ahead, that tankivacs are awesome and that parabomb is already too weak since the nerf. The community does not just have one opinion and it's impossible to please everybody. Once they intend to change something after listening to feedback from one side, the other side will come out and complain. I think the community only agrees on one thing, namely that bandaid changes, like the cannon buff which came out of nowhere, are bad. of course there will be always people that disagree with certain things but from reading the comments for the community feedback updates those are by far the most complained about issues and with good reason. Ignoring things a huge part of the community wants to see changed isn't a good idea if you want to keep your playerbase happy. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
On May 04 2016 05:13 NicolasJohnson wrote: What's the deal with parasitic bomb ? It allows a player of superior skill to beat a full air army. If players of equal skill engage, then the terran player can snipe the vipers (the AI focuses them anyway with the other units) and the protoss player feedbacks them. Without parasitic bomb, the zerg player has to build spores everywhere and turtle, while they don't have the tools to do it cost effectively (since the swarm host has been dismantled, and for good reason). parasitic bomb does huge amounts of damage without really allowing for counterplay. splitting only works if the zerg has only a few vipers, when he gets to many vipers no amount of splitting will save your units. In combination with broodlords which can only be countered by air units this is too strong and encourages cancerous mass air playstyles. snipe doesn't work if the zerg player pays attention because it gets interrupted by broodlings | ||
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NicolasJohnson
30 Posts
On May 04 2016 06:38 Charoisaur wrote: parasitic bomb does huge amounts of damage without really allowing for counterplay. splitting only works if the zerg has only a few vipers, when he gets to many vipers no amount of splitting will save your units. In combination with broodlords which can only be countered by air units this is too strong and encourages cancerous mass air playstyles. snipe doesn't work if the zerg player pays attention because it gets interrupted by broodlings Oh ok so you talk about it as a problem in a zerg deathball with like queens infestors BLs corruptors and vipers, I get it, but the way I see it, parasitic bomb discourages (a bit) the opponent of going for "cancerous" mass air as you put it , and I don't know any pro zerg who repeateadly goes for mass air, maybe sometimes Snute, but that's not very "zerg". I fully agree with taking parasitic bomb out of the game but then, you should have to take the other air death balls out.What is more, I don't manage to kill a maxed protoss air army with it (I'm in masters league EU), and neither do the pros I talk to, so I don't think it is that OP. | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
Patch seems to have been scrapped? I don't want to make a new thread but there's a new community feedback | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
It really comes down to how aggressively the game designers feel about changing things. My metric would be BO variety at the expense of win rate or meta stability because I have nothing at stake, but win rates seem to be the dominant litmus test and pro feedback. I just hope the pros aren't just saying it's fine without leaving the safe meta. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
Some attentions for cyclone. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20282 Posts
Protoss Buff vs. Mutalisks Previously, this topic seemed to be clearly important to the community, but it seems to have completely changed the other way. Even though Mutalisks are clearly not an issue at the top of pro level, we believed it was a heavy community issue Muta has a big effect on the game @ pro level even if they're not seen often. If you were remove the mutalisk tomorrow the PvZ meta would drastically change overnight | ||
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Comedy
455 Posts
Sector 1 - Design, the best thing he can do is play a lot, and listen to the community to what isnt fun and what is really fun, for both players in the game mind you. (a lot of things in SC currently are fun for one user, but makes other user wanna quit). Sector 2 - Balance - tweaking units stats and things that impact gameplay immidiately, he's best off listening to Kespa pros only. (The highest level). The bio air buff to cannons is something that is trying to adress sector 1 with a tool from sector 2. This doesn't work. The change to liberator air stems from a particular maru game vs leenock game a long time ago, zerg has adapted and moved past the problem. Things are very much up in the air right now - the only thing that should be nerfed or removed is the liberator range. (But this is a sympton of bad design- can end games instantly much like oracles, nydusses,). the 2 sectors are very overlapping, but David Kim is unable to change design things - so he is completly lost and lacks the tools to fix core problems in my opinion. We need changes to make gameplay more fun for both players a lot more than we need these tiny balance tweaks. And I have the feeling that David Kim is not the person who can make those changes. And I doubt they will ever happen. | ||
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ecnahc
United States395 Posts
The Nova missions come to mind immediately, siege tanks that can hop around with an upgrade? That's awesome! Stimmed hellbats? Pretty fuckin cool and a great way to bridge the bio/mech gap. Reapers with spider mines? Slap that on the armory and suddenly keeping your early game reapers alive is a big deal! You simultaneously encourage players to kill those pesky reapers and encourage terran players to keep them alive. Regardless of meta, balance, or community feedback the SC2 design team has already come up with some great stuff. David please give yourself and your designers more credit and stop trying to please the vocal minority. People are gonna play starcraft regardless of how angry the forums are because the game is fun, not because it's perfectly fair for every player at every skill level on every map. | ||
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SilverBullet
Canada79 Posts
Would much rather see a terran mid-game nerf if it meant we could get the ultras reverted. They saw action all the time in HOTS and then blizzard decided to HALF marauder damage on them ... | ||
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WeddingEpisode
United States356 Posts
On May 04 2016 14:24 SilverBullet wrote: Really disappointed that the ultralisk is still in its current form .... This unit is really silly, and the tools to counter it are really awkward for terran. Would much rather see a terran mid-game nerf if it meant we could get the ultras reverted. They saw action all the time in HOTS and then blizzard decided to HALF marauder damage on them ... Maybe a better change lay in other features: unit speed, for example. The generally uniform speed of almost all units I think is not right. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20282 Posts
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
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TheDougler
Canada8302 Posts
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
Whether it addresses the issues is a question for the ages, I think. | ||
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Jer99
Canada8157 Posts
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