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Charoisaur
Germany16084 Posts
On April 09 2016 21:28 Shield wrote: Sadly, Blizzard believes in super fast speed. From HotS to LotV: very fast mutas, very fast oracle, very fast medivac and very fast banshee. time for a DT speed buff :D I wonder why that didn't make it into the game. | ||
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
Not sure to laugh or cry.... | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Seing MMM + Liberators every game is just not fun. In HOTS the game was in a much better state. Bio was viable in all 3 matchups and mech was viable in 2 matchups. I remember watching Taeja vs Innovation, bio vs mech, it is probably one of the best games I have ever seen. TvT in Hots was beautiful. We had: Bio vs Bio Mech vs Mech Bio vs Mech Now we just have Bio vs Bio It gets really boring fast, both to watch and play. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
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Avi-Love
Denmark423 Posts
Firstly, people complaining that there is no diversity in tvz are plain wrong, sky terran has been seeing more and more play, and not only is it viable, it appears to be absolutely unstoppable if you get to critical mass, much like air units in pvz - don't believe me? Here are two RECENT examples, where the S tier zergs look HOPELESS, even with near infinite eco and tech. + Show Spoiler + Maru vs Leenock in Proleague round 1 playoffs: Maru vs Solar in Proleague round 2 Which brings me to my next point, tvz is NOT on a timer, terran does NOT automatically lose to ultras, in fact as we can see from these two scenarios, terrans absolutely demolish late game zerg compositions, even with the "op" viper, corrupter, bl and infesters. Furthermore, TvZ is quite terran favoured at the highest level of play, if you combine SPL round 1+2 with GSL code S, Terran is 35-22, a ~61.5% win rate. Lastly, complaining about cyclones being so weak that they are not seeing any play is incorrect, lots of terrans are building them early game in both tvt and tvp to either kill vikings, medivacs or oracles, etc - sure they tend to only build one or two, but what happens if you compare this to the amount of swarm hosts built in games? A unit that ACTUALLY sees ZERO play. In conclusion, I think that there is a worrying trend on tl.net and other such forums where people, in particularly terran players, are clearly blinded by their own incompetence and they seemingly don't follow professional gaming close enough to comment on the actual state of the game. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16084 Posts
On April 09 2016 23:01 Avi-Love wrote: Which brings me to my next point, tvz is NOT on a timer, Watch pro games 95% of terran wins come from allins/timings while once the zerg is established on 4-5 bases with 3/3 hive and ultras they almost always win. It's very predictable to watch at the moment, past a certain time you know the zerg is gonna win. 1-2 games where terran won in the lategame doesn't prove the opposite. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
This map is not OK. Last change only achieved a 68% to 64% change in the ZvP win rates. Only time we saw a pro Korean P beating a Z on this map lately is Patience vs Ragnarok in SSL and Dream vs Departure in SPL round 1. It's safe to say that P and are avoiding this map like plague, they always veto it in code S when a Z is in the group (not a single ZvP or ZvT played on this map this season!!!) SPL removed it and poor Trap had to give free wins to Solar and Dark in SSL finals. I don't mind it being on the ladder, we have vetos and silly games can be also fun when you play casually, but seing it again in it's current configuration in a premier tournament would be a disgrace. This map is like a weird and awkward animal, it has to evolve or disappear. | ||
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mCon.Hephaistas
Netherlands891 Posts
On April 09 2016 23:14 Charoisaur wrote: Watch pro games 95% of terran wins come from allins/timings while once the zerg is established on 4-5 bases with 3/3 hive and ultras they almost always win. It's very predictable to watch at the moment, past a certain time you know the zerg is gonna win. 1-2 games where terran won in the lategame doesn't prove the opposite. Because most games terrans actually play to end the game in the midgame, which is a good way to play ofcourse because terran has a slight edge in the midgame. We are gonna have to see more of this airstyle though before we can make any statements about it though. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On April 09 2016 21:49 PinoKotsBeer wrote: Really Blizzard? nerfing the liberator is top priority at this moment? Not sure to laugh or cry.... What else is, if not Liberators? I haven't seen a Protoss make 15-20 Distruptors. I also haven't seen a Zerg mass only Ultras. But I have seen a lot of Terrans with most of their supply in Liberators. Obviously this unit is ridiculous. And the worst thing is, it's very easy to use for how strong it is in every imaginable situation. Lib harass? Just shift click and don't worry about it, while the opponent has to scramble for a minute to take it out due to range and bad map layout behind the mineral line. Haven't positioned your Lib zones well? No biggie, they only take a second to unsiege and siege again. Caught out of position with your Libs? Don't worry, they are fast as lighting. TLDR version: this unit is simply too good at everything and needs to get nerfed hard. Should it prove too much, Terran should be buffed in another area. | ||
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stilt
France2755 Posts
And for late game tvp, the liberators will be pretty useless, does not seem fair but this is not a MU I used to play so... | ||
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
On April 09 2016 23:26 CheddarToss wrote: What else is, if not Liberators? I haven't seen a Protoss make 15-20 Distruptors. I also haven't seen a Zerg mass only Ultras. But I have seen a lot of Terrans with most of their supply in Liberators. Obviously this unit is ridiculous. And the worst thing is, it's very easy to use for how strong it is in every imaginable situation. Lib harass? Just shift click and don't worry about it, while the opponent has to scramble for a minute to take it out due to range and bad map layout behind the mineral line. Haven't positioned your Lib zones well? No biggie, they only take a second to unsiege and siege again. Caught out of position with your Libs? Don't worry, they are fast as lighting. TLDR version: this unit is simply too good at everything and needs to get nerfed hard. Should it prove too much, Terran should be buffed in another area. Do you hear me say the liberators shouldnt nerfed? No, i did not state that. Top priority is imho pvz and such. And regarding the liberator itself, yes its very strong and it should be nerfed at a certain moment. YES, a terran would like to see them nerfed. But you have to see the bigger pictures because that is lacking in your comment. What other terran unit is decent? oh wait, more bio bio bio bio bio bio bio bio bio bio bio bio bio bio bio bio , did i say bio? because the synergy of the other units isnt there. Think about production, upgrades etc. Thats why you see mass liberators, because its the only good thing terran has. Many many topics and comments are written about liberators etc, not worth the time to repeat everything if you are soley focussed on 1 unit. And terrans not to "worry" about an unit is nice a change ....... And plenty of zergs with +20 corruptors or a toss with 15 tempests etc. | ||
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stilt
France2755 Posts
On April 09 2016 23:26 CheddarToss wrote: What else is, if not Liberators? I haven't seen a Protoss make 15-20 Distruptors. I also haven't seen a Zerg mass only Ultras. But I have seen a lot of Terrans with most of their supply in Liberators. Obviously this unit is ridiculous. And the worst thing is, it's very easy to use for how strong it is in every imaginable situation. Lib harass? Just shift click and don't worry about it, while the opponent has to scramble for a minute to take it out due to range and bad map layout behind the mineral line. Haven't positioned your Lib zones well? No biggie, they only take a second to unsiege and siege again. Caught out of position with your Libs? Don't worry, they are fast as lighting. TLDR version: this unit is simply too good at everything and needs to get nerfed hard. Should it prove too much, Terran should be buffed in another area. I would like to see the 2013 mines again, this gave a few of the best tvz of sc2  But as a spectator, i enjoy watching libe in tvp! | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On April 09 2016 21:34 Charoisaur wrote: time for a DT speed buff :D I wonder why that didn't make it into the game. Well, they're adding it to the game. It's just a terran unit called banshee. Flying dt although it doesn't have permanent cloak. :D | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17682 Posts
On April 09 2016 23:01 Avi-Love wrote: I can't believe how many delusional terran players there are in this thread, it is honestly frightening. I really don't mean for this post to come off as bad mannered, but I think certain people need to seriously re-evaluate the state of the game atm, and as such I will address a few comments made in this thread: my fav race is terran. i've played more terran than any other race by far. however, i get higher on the ladder playing Zerg. 150 APM and lower players must accept the fact that if they pick Terran they'll end up lower on the ladder. it really doesnt matter to me because i end up with a 50/50 win/loss record with both Zerg and Terran. Terran just requires higher APM and that's it. If guy's like Avilo want to win money in WCS events they'll have to move to Zerg because they're APM just isn't there for Terran at top level. Instead guys in Avilo's situation often just whine about the "game design". | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On April 09 2016 23:01 Avi-Love wrote: I can't believe how many delusional terran players there are in this thread, it is honestly frightening. I really don't mean for this post to come off as bad mannered, but I think certain people need to seriously re-evaluate the state of the game atm, and as such I will address a few comments made in this thread: Firstly, people complaining that there is no diversity in tvz are plain wrong, sky terran has been seeing more and more play, and not only is it viable, it appears to be absolutely unstoppable if you get to critical mass, much like air units in pvz - don't believe me? Here are two RECENT examples, where the S tier zergs look HOPELESS, even with near infinite eco and tech. + Show Spoiler + Maru vs Leenock in Proleague round 1 playoffs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anar2XBZ_pk Maru vs Solar in Proleague round 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSZjwC8yXaM Which brings me to my next point, tvz is NOT on a timer, terran does NOT automatically lose to ultras, in fact as we can see from these two scenarios, terrans absolutely demolish late game zerg compositions, even with the "op" viper, corrupter, bl and infesters. Furthermore, TvZ is quite terran favoured at the highest level of play, if you combine SPL round 1+2 with GSL code S, Terran is 35-22, a ~61.5% win rate. Lastly, complaining about cyclones being so weak that they are not seeing any play is incorrect, lots of terrans are building them early game in both tvt and tvp to either kill vikings, medivacs or oracles, etc - sure they tend to only build one or two, but what happens if you compare this to the amount of swarm hosts built in games? A unit that ACTUALLY sees ZERO play. In conclusion, I think that there is a worrying trend on tl.net and other such forums where people, in particularly terran players, are clearly blinded by their own incompetence and they seemingly don't follow professional gaming close enough to comment on the actual state of the game. This comment is garbage. A trend which occurs often, a person comes in here to say that alot of people are wrong and then say really bad things himself. Comparing cyclones to swarmhosts are irrelevant. The cyclone which is a new unit in lotv sees VERY little play. Key word here is VERY little play so dont focus on the new unit part. And if terran can make air a viable strategy, lots of people dont care about that. In fact, lots of people want this air style gone cuz its very boring for the game. Both to play and to watch. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On April 09 2016 23:37 PinoKotsBeer wrote: Do you hear me say the liberators shouldnt nerfed? No, i did not state that. Top priority is imho pvz and such. And regarding the liberator itself, yes its very strong and it should be nerfed at a certain moment. YES, a terran would like to see them nerfed. But you have to see the bigger pictures because that is lacking in your comment. What other terran unit is decent? oh wait, more bio bio bio bio bio bio bio bio bio bio bio bio bio bio bio bio , did i say bio? because the synergy of the other units isnt there. Think about production, upgrades etc. Thats why you see mass liberators, because its the only good thing terran has. Many many topics and comments are written about liberators etc, not worth the time to repeat everything if you are soley focussed on 1 unit. And terrans not to "worry" about an unit is nice a change ....... And plenty of zergs with +20 corruptors or a toss with 15 tempests etc. Well, that's why I said that something else should get buffed. I'm all for the Siege Tank buff and removing that siege mode pickup. However I'm not sure how to prevent super strong 2 base bio/tank all-ins, after such a buff. The thing is, I don't think that Bio and Mech can be viable, because if both are good, than bio/tank timings are going to be crazy strong. So there needs to be some nerf that will not hit any particular unit, but reduce synergy between bio and the tank. | ||
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Avi-Love
Denmark423 Posts
Furthermore, On April 09 2016 23:14 Charoisaur wrote: Watch pro games 95% of terran wins come from allins/timings while once the zerg is established on 4-5 bases with 3/3 hive and ultras they almost always win. It's very predictable to watch at the moment, past a certain time you know the zerg is gonna win. 1-2 games where terran won in the lategame doesn't prove the opposite. 95% of terran wins come from allins / timings is a vast overrestimation, but even if that was the case, it is not because terran is weak in the late game, it's because zerg is weak before specific timings -- why do you think zergs have a 30% win rate in zvt in Code S? Because ultras are imbalanced....? There are two points in zvt where zerg is strong (read strong, not ''omg imbalance, immortal, impossible to beat'') and that is 1) if you're nearing max on roach/ravager and terran is not at a high enough unit count to overcome the supply ineffeciency of roach/ravager, and 2) when you first get out 4-5 ultras with chitinous and 1-2 upgrades. Outside of these two windows of opportunity zerg is weaker than terran, and overall zerg is clearly weaker than terran - this is further exacerbated by terran having access to an unbeatable late game airstyle, which is not good - neither when it comes to balance nor entertainment. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
You show this in your other text aswell. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On April 09 2016 15:44 CyanApple wrote: well they say they dont want the 5 maps remaining after the veto to be only one type. i hope having only two types (1 experimental map+4 proven maptypes) would be ok for them. that would be highly appreciated i guess. this would give us indeed 3 experimental and 4 proven maps. That's not what they said. They mentioned they don't want more than 1 map of the same type, period. And gave multiple examples of this: Regardless of what label you prefer, we feel that it’s a great map but we just don’t want more than 1 map of this exact same type in the ladder pool. The important thing is we know this type of layout is fun in SC2, and we can definitely use this map or maps like this map in the future. We just don’t want to have more than 1 map of this type in the pool. b. Again, we just don’t want to have more than one map of this type in the map pool is the important thing here. When we say we want to push map diversity, the ultimate goal is that we want to avoid a situation where only 1 map type is allowed to enter the map pool. This is the part that I don't think people realize. They made an extremely long presentation for their new terms for maps going forward, and tried very hard to make it "look" like they were giving players what they wanted (less "creative" maps and more maps you can play "standard" on)... Yet what they really explained was exactly what we already have - 1 to 3 'experimental' maps, with the remaining maps being no more than 1 of the same type. This definition would explain the map pool right now, they have not promised to give us anything different! They fooled a majority of people here who think they promised something different than what they did. He didnt say 3 maps vs 4 proven maps. He said 4 proven map types. That's a term that's even more oblivious than "standard", and gives them a justification for making sure you have to play differently on every map in the pool. It's the opposite of what people were asking for... AKA the new David Kim standard: Ask for feedback, do not implement changes with good feedback, and only implement changes that have overwhelmingly negative feedback. | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
On April 09 2016 23:01 Avi-Love wrote: I can't believe how many delusional terran players there are in this thread, it is honestly frightening. I really don't mean for this post to come off as bad mannered, but I think certain people need to seriously re-evaluate the state of the game atm, and as such I will address a few comments made in this thread: Firstly, people complaining that there is no diversity in tvz are plain wrong, sky terran has been seeing more and more play, and not only is it viable, it appears to be absolutely unstoppable if you get to critical mass, much like air units in pvz - don't believe me? Here are two RECENT examples, where the S tier zergs look HOPELESS, even with near infinite eco and tech. + Show Spoiler + Maru vs Leenock in Proleague round 1 playoffs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anar2XBZ_pk Maru vs Solar in Proleague round 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSZjwC8yXaM Which brings me to my next point, tvz is NOT on a timer, terran does NOT automatically lose to ultras, in fact as we can see from these two scenarios, terrans absolutely demolish late game zerg compositions, even with the "op" viper, corrupter, bl and infesters. Furthermore, TvZ is quite terran favoured at the highest level of play, if you combine SPL round 1+2 with GSL code S, Terran is 35-22, a ~61.5% win rate. Lastly, complaining about cyclones being so weak that they are not seeing any play is incorrect, lots of terrans are building them early game in both tvt and tvp to either kill vikings, medivacs or oracles, etc - sure they tend to only build one or two, but what happens if you compare this to the amount of swarm hosts built in games? A unit that ACTUALLY sees ZERO play. In conclusion, I think that there is a worrying trend on tl.net and other such forums where people, in particularly terran players, are clearly blinded by their own incompetence and they seemingly don't follow professional gaming close enough to comment on the actual state of the game. Aside from those 2 games, can you give other examples of skyterran crushing zergs in the highest level of play? Because according to what you're saying, Blizzard is about to completely kill skyterran and force their bio meta, because of 2 games only. That's assuming that as you imply, they only balance the game based on the highest level of play. | ||
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