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On April 09 2016 05:19 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2016 03:59 CyanApple wrote:don’t want more than 1 map of this exact same type in the ladder pool avoid a situation where only 1 map type is allowed to enter the map pool theres a huge difference between having 5 maps of that type or only 1. i think what most people want is to have atleast 3-4 "almost standard maps" in the map pool as in dusk towers, orbital shipyard or ruins of seras Edit: a few lines later, they actually say they only want 1-3 "experimental" maps. lets hope they have a proper definition of "experimental" lol... of course they dont. Last week they try to claim all the maps people like are "standard", then next update they did away with "standard" as a title. Now they are using "experimental" - a title that is even less descriptive. To put it simply, now argument's can't use "labels" against them, so they have more freedom to do w/e they want. Also note, they only thing they said about the non-experimental maps is that they "don't want them to be the same type"... what do you think that means? lol
well they say they dont want the 5 maps remaining after the veto to be only one type. i hope having only two types (1 experimental map+4 proven maptypes) would be ok for them. that would be highly appreciated i guess.
this would give us indeed 3 experimental and 4 proven maps.
also, the liberator change was proposed as a response to the ravager nerf i think? now you go through with the liberator nerf, while not going through with the ravager nerf, only because you think the compensation by buffing banshees is "fun"? yet feedback shows, players disagree with that.
anyways, liberator is too strong so im fine with that and i hope speed-banshee just wont be used. i just dont see the logic behind the decisions
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On April 09 2016 10:17 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Nerfing this as opposed to the ravager is a poor choice, the ravager is a very bland unit that lends itself well to an A-move playstyle. Ravager is used a lot in ZvT which is roughly balanced if not mildly terran focused Drop affects P earlygame (like pre-warpgate timings) but is rarely if ever used to kill terran at those timings The Z change isn't targetted at nerfing zerg, it's about making the first 3-5 minutes of PvZ more stable and map independant
Nerfing zerg's drop isn't a solution. It's a knee-jerk fix. You have to ask yourself why protoss needs this change. And the answer is: protoss' early defense isn't good enough. If it was, why would you need this change? You will say you have mothership core, but it's only as good as distance between bases allows. I think the real solution is to make protoss units stronger, remove mothership core and sentries. Enough with spells to make protoss work. It's like some MMORPG game with heroes where you use spells all the time. I agree spells are fun but protoss has too many and not enough raw strength like in Brood War.
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I think the best solution to strengthen Protoss early game defence is to make gateway units build faster than warp gate units. That way Protoss can get more units out early to defend their bases without making all-ins stronger.
Protoss could use this to do proxy gateway attacks of course but that is much riskier since they cannot fly those buildings home if the attack is defeated.
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On April 09 2016 19:31 MockHamill wrote:
I think the best solution to strengthen Protoss early game defence is to make gateway units build faster than warp gate units. That way Protoss can get more units out early to defend their bases without making all-ins stronger.
Protoss could use this to do proxy gateway attacks of course but that is much riskier since they cannot fly those buildings home if the attack is defeated.
I like this change but proxy gates would be a problem as you said.
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My thoughts in concise form:
-Blizzard is out of touch with the SC2 community about maps and balance
-Blizzard doesn't understand what a standard map is, and even calls dusk towers a "unique one" in their update
-Blizzard will do this minimal patch after months of waiting for actual meaningful changes, and then be slow again to patch
-Arbitrary banshee buff for literally no reason while ignoring every single other Terran thing that needs fixing
-mech
-tank damage
-thor anti-air versus brood/bc/tempest/carrier
-cyclone being an overpriced/underpowered garbage unit never seen in any games in any comp
-marauder nerf revert
-liberator nerf when it's the only good unit T can build past 10 minutes = Terran will suck after this nerf
-Tiniest nerf of Zerg overlord drop tech while leaving all of this bullshit alone/untouched:
-8 armor ultralisk
-invincible nydus worm (idiotic+frustrating)
-adrenal lings
-parasitic bomb (still idiotic+frustrating)
-ravagers (corrosive bile nerf won't do much, still gains too many stats after morphed from roach)
-corruptor piss on building ability unnecessary
-Protoss largely untouched and still has some abusive / frustrating gameplay issues
-adepts are still too OP vs all races. Not a fun unit to play vs. Increase shade cooldown massively please
-warp prism pick-up range overboard still
-protoss unplayable versus Zerg on 99% of the map pool
-protoss is a freewin versus terran due to 3rd nexus/all-ins/proxies on ladder
-protoss just overall is a gimmicky race atm that either 2 base adept all-ins or turtles into mass tempest
-collosus is pretty bad but if they buff it it'll be too strong
-tempest 4 supply needs to be changed. This unit is too massable and annoying en masse, makes mech suck
So. Basically. None of the above are addressed, none of them ever will be at the rate that blizzard patches the game. They waited and fooled all of us for months about changes to balance, to siege tanks, to mech, etc. and they give us one tiny patch that does a nerf of overlord drops and nerfs Terrans only core unit past mid-game while ignoring 99% of the balance issues with SC2.
Bit dissapointing to say the least.
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^and that is why i dont play this game, dont get me wrong i would love to dedicate time to a RTS game because the rts genre is the best but no rts game lives up to a good standard.
If blizzard would please just look at core issues instead of some symptoms. I completely agree, the only reason zerg drops needs to be nerfed is because protoss defence is just badly designed and yes it means the defence protoss has in the early game is still boring as hell!
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I'm just very dissatisfied with the state of the game overall.
As a terran you're forced into one composition every single game and on top of that that composition is on a timer in that you have to win before the opponent gets to ultra/broodlord/viper or tempest/templar/disruptor.
So the only strategic diversity is if you're doing a 2 base allin or a 3 base allin
Mass air battles are cancerous to play and every matchup turns into that in the lategame, tvt is a shitfest with the player who drops his tanks first in a good position instantly winning.
in pvz protoss has to open phoenix every game and then the game turns into both players macroing up for 10 minutes just to be decided by 1 deathball fight.
Personally I think the game is in its worst state ever and it will be very difficult to fix it if blizzard has any interest in that.
the community updates are very dissapointing with DK mentioning promising changes to tanks and thors only to never mention them again and hope people forget about them.
HotS>>>>>>LotV
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banshee buff is dumb and will not compensate any kind of lib nerf, the same way the small tank buff didn't compensate the mine nerf back in HotS. I predict TvP will be close to impossible to win vs competent Protosses now.
EDIT : on second thought maybe the lib nerf will allow for a tempest nerf, which would actually end up being good for the game, because I believe it'll be far easier to play around 4 radius liberators even without air. But they never talked about nerfind that dumb unit that is the tempest to the ground.
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On April 09 2016 20:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:
banshee buff is dumb and will not compensate any kind of lib nerf, the same way the small tank buff didn't compensate the mine nerf back in HotS. I predict TvP will be close to impossible to win vs competent Protosses now.
EDIT : on second thought maybe the lib nerf will allow for a tempest nerf, which would actually end up being good for the game, because I believe it'll be far easier to play around 4 radius liberators even without air. But they never talked about nerfind that dumb unit that is the tempest to the ground.
Tempest is a dumb unit, but it is necessary against liberators with upgrade and broodlords. It's already bad against ground units, you can't nerf it more.
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On April 09 2016 20:48 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2016 20:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:
banshee buff is dumb and will not compensate any kind of lib nerf, the same way the small tank buff didn't compensate the mine nerf back in HotS. I predict TvP will be close to impossible to win vs competent Protosses now.
EDIT : on second thought maybe the lib nerf will allow for a tempest nerf, which would actually end up being good for the game, because I believe it'll be far easier to play around 4 radius liberators even without air. But they never talked about nerfind that dumb unit that is the tempest to the ground. Tempest is a dumb unit, but it is necessary against liberators with upgrade and broodlords. It's already bad against ground units, you can't nerf it more.
6 supply as others suggested would make a lot of sense. And vs nerfed liberators (take away the upgrade if needed) you wouldn't need them as much.
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By the way I wonder where they're seeing "agreement" that a lib nerf should be compensated with a -quite ridiculous- banshee buff. I won't say I've read every answer in this thread thoroughly, but it seemed to me almost everyone was criticizing this idea -even when it was first proposed. A lib nerf should be compensated with a tempest nerf and an ultra nerf, that's actually quite simple.
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On April 09 2016 21:04 [PkF] Wire wrote:
By the way I wonder where they're seeing "agreement" that a lib nerf should be compensated with a -quite ridiculous- banshee buff. I won't say I've read every answer in this thread thoroughly, but it seemed to me almost everyone was criticizing this idea -even when it was first proposed. A lib nerf should be compensated with a tempest nerf and an ultra nerf, that's actually quite simple.
I haven't seen anyone aside from Dayvie say that buffing banshees like that while nerfing libs was a good idea.
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On April 09 2016 21:06 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2016 21:04 [PkF] Wire wrote:
By the way I wonder where they're seeing "agreement" that a lib nerf should be compensated with a -quite ridiculous- banshee buff. I won't say I've read every answer in this thread thoroughly, but it seemed to me almost everyone was criticizing this idea -even when it was first proposed. A lib nerf should be compensated with a tempest nerf and an ultra nerf, that's actually quite simple. I haven't seen anyone aside from Dayvie say that buffing banshees like that while nerfing libs was a good idea.
That's the only opinion that matters for him
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On April 09 2016 21:06 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2016 21:04 [PkF] Wire wrote:
By the way I wonder where they're seeing "agreement" that a lib nerf should be compensated with a -quite ridiculous- banshee buff. I won't say I've read every answer in this thread thoroughly, but it seemed to me almost everyone was criticizing this idea -even when it was first proposed. A lib nerf should be compensated with a tempest nerf and an ultra nerf, that's actually quite simple. I haven't seen anyone aside from Dayvie say that buffing banshees like that while nerfing libs was a good idea.
Then I'm not crazy 
I have to say I was very excited by the beginning of LotV, but now the dust has settled a bit, I have to concede I struggle to see improvements in any non mirror match-ups compared to HotS. PvZ is very one dimensional and P has no versatiliy past the early game, same can be said for Z. ZvT will become even worse if speed banshees ever make it to the game. And PvT is as frustrating as ever for T players. They think quick small steps are needed, I vastly disagree. I think the hammer nerf should hit hard on a lot of problematic things (tempests, adepts, immortals, liberators, ultras, nydus, etc).
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As explained in a previous weekly update, the idea behind buffing banshee is not to buff terran harass possibilities, but to make various comp of bio/mech viable. But the speed upgrade won't reach that goal. Maybe an idea could be to have a fusion core upgrade that extends Banshees' range and damage, to let them stand behind the bioball during a fight.
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the fun we're seeing with speed-upgraded banshees
uhm... which fun exactly? What's fun about chasing a super-fast unit that you can only kill if your opponent messes up.
I dont want terran to be balanced around that.
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On April 09 2016 21:17 Sc2Earth wrote:
As explained in a previous weekly update, the idea behind buffing banshee is not to buff terran harass possibilities, but to make various comp of bio/mech viable.
then as you say it's not the right buff to make.
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I don't know how Blizzard sees Banshees against Zerg. They deal wayyyy too little damage to deny Ultralisk, and are extremely micro intensive, especially on top of a bio ball. Meanwhile, there's these 20 armor fucking amove tanks wrecking everything you hold dear.
Also WCS
SC2. I pray for you.
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On April 09 2016 21:20 Charoisaur wrote:uhm... which fun exactly? What's fun about chasing a super-fast unit that you can only kill if your opponent messes up. I dont want terran to be balanced around that.
Sadly, Blizzard believes in super fast speed. From HotS to LotV: very fast mutas, very fast oracle, very fast medivac and very fast banshee.
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On April 09 2016 21:28 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2016 21:20 Charoisaur wrote:the fun we're seeing with speed-upgraded banshees uhm... which fun exactly? What's fun about chasing a super-fast unit that you can only kill if your opponent messes up. I dont want terran to be balanced around that. Sadly, Blizzard believes in super fast speed. From HotS to LotV: very fast mutas, very fast oracle, very fast medivac and very fast banshee.
All the things you pointed out are very problematic and the fast banshee will be no exception.
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EPT
