EPTFirst LotV Balance Patch - Page 13
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Aegwynn
Italy460 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On January 27 2016 08:28 Lexender wrote: I wonder if Blizzard decided to name the patches "design patches" people will actually understand the diference. Personally, I think not. I said the exact same thing earlier in this thread. This isn't about balance, it is about design concerns. There is a difference. If you want to balance a scale, the last thing you do is take weight off the side that had less to begin with. I'm with the people that think the Adept was overpowered and that Pylon Overcharge is garbage. But if those thing are buoying Protoss, who have a terrible win rate versus Zerg while going even with Terran, what do people expect is going to happen? Do they really think the game will be more balanced by making the weaker side even weaker in PvZ? I don't care if it is the map pool or the units or whatever that is the causing the issue, it just should get fixed, and this patch fixes nothing when it comes to balance. This fixes designs problems. In fact, this patch will likely make balance worse. | ||
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aRyuujin
United States5049 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On January 26 2016 21:23 Mozdk wrote: And alligulac balance is not the end all stats of truth. Just so you know. We need the game to be balance at the top level. Not in gold league. You do know that Aligulac presents statistics from the top right, not gold league, right? Note that this yields information about metagame balance near the top of the skill ladder, and is not to be confused with (although likely correlated to) actual game balance throughout the whole player population. It always gets me when people talk about how Aligulac being all of ladder, when it isn't. When you are balancing a game, you want to track winrates. Which is why this patch isn't about balance, and shouldn't be called that. This is a patch to fix a game design flaw and make Protoss less reliant on the gimmicks that are the Adept and Photon Overcharge. But Aligulac is the end all of statistics when it comes to winrates. Sure other stuff matters, which is why it also tracks performance differences, which I believe is even more important. Those two statistics are very powerful and creating logical balance arguments independent of them is nearly impossible. Just try. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On January 27 2016 07:42 DinoMight wrote: Statistically Zerg wins a lot more than Protoss. This "but go watch top Protoss maaaaaannnn" is bullshit and it needs to end. So does this "but you're still trying to play your old style" crap. I've been playing LotV since the beta opened... more than enough time to adapt strategies. Protoss needs 50-100 apm more than they did in HotS to play PvZ and not get annihilated by equal skill opponents... Every strategy requires you to be ALSO harassing. In HotS there were allins, there was regular adaptive macro play, and there was turtling to a great composition. In LotV, the 3rd option no longer exists. And if you don't harass while you're getting to your allin, it will fail. It's just aligulac argument while we don't see Zerg crushing everything on tournament, but rather lagging to have the same results than T and P. Just look at the win rate of the best Kor : Soo, Dark, Life, Hydra, Rogue, Byul worst non miror match up are vs P, while Hero, Classic, Dear, Trap, Zest, Stats best non miror MU are vs Z. The APM argument, for me it seems that the game now balance. P could be GM with 110 APM on HOTS. Also, the count of APM have changed, and having + 50 APM compare to HOTS is nearly the same APM than HOTS (maybe just +10). But your arguments prove exactly what i'm saying : You complain you can't no longer turtle and get the deathball, and that you need to harass, multitask, soft harass, more APM. You just prove, it's a learn to play issue rather than a balance issue. You're stuck with your old habits, playing the old way, and refusing to learn the new way, but rather complains "need more APM, and no longer turtle : obviously underpower race...." A balance issue, is : "I've watched thousands of VOD, replays from pros, doing my best to find the way to counter that, but even them are failing, and have no clue to counter this, every Pro Player have trouble with this" | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On January 27 2016 16:17 Tyrhanius wrote: It's just aligulac argument while we don't see Zerg crushing everything on tournament, but rather lagging to have the same results than T and P. What? Check out the performance difference chart Aligulac has, probably the most ignored and misunderstood tool we have for balance, because who wins a tournament really doesn't matter much. Fruitdealer and Nestea won GSL's when Zerg was very underpowered. Here is how the performance difference chart works:" The performance difference chart shows the approximate difference between actual performance as evidenced by results and predicted performance by rating." In other words, let's imagine you have Protoss player and a Terran player who both normally have a score of 1000 in TvP, and thus each win 50% of their games against each other. Now, if there is a patch, meta change or map pool update, that favors Protoss, we'll see that because the Terran players score will go 1050 and the Protoss will go to 950. Therefore, the Terran player will be playing 50 points better than normal, while the Protoss 50 points less than normal. Therefore a Terran who once had a rating 1000 will be equal to a Protoss player who once had a rating of 1100. We see those changes immediately in the performance difference chart, it controls for "hot streaks from one or two singularly great players." By look at that chart, you'll realize that we haven't seen a performance rating that problematic since July 2014, as Protoss is at -52 right now. Unsurprisingly, the trends in performance difference chart follows the win rate chart quite closely. This not only should strengthen your faith in the win rate chart, but also in the performance difference chart itself. The statistics align because they are correct and strong, not because they weak. They should not be ignored. | ||
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_fool
Netherlands686 Posts
On January 26 2016 19:25 ProtossMasterRace wrote: Protoss will have around 30-40% winrate against terran and probably single digit against zerg. The glory days of starcraft are over. Do people realise that single digit ZvP win rates would require Z to win 91 out of a 100 games against P? It seems farfetched. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On January 27 2016 16:17 BronzeKnee wrote: You do know that Aligulac presents statistics from the top right, not gold league, right? It always gets me when people talk about how Aligulac being all of ladder, when it isn't. When you are balancing a game, you want to track winrates. Which is why this patch isn't about balance, and shouldn't be called that. This is a patch to fix a game design flaw and make Protoss less reliant on the gimmicks that are the Adept and Photon Overcharge. But Aligulac is the end all of statistics when it comes to winrates. Sure other stuff matters, which is why it also tracks performance differences, which I believe is even more important. Those two statistics are very powerful and creating logical balance arguments independent of them is nearly impossible. Just try. Winrate is a very weak statistic though imo. Representation of a race is already a better one, although also skewed in its own way. On ladder the winrate is supposed to move roughly to the 50%, which makes anything based on ladder game winrates flawed. Also for tournaments you get weird situations: If DH started at the RO16, the conclusion based on winrates is that Terran is really overpowered. In addition the impact of a strong player is much larger than that of a weak player. The strongest player brings a long string of wins to his race. The weakest player loses a few games and is out. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On January 27 2016 16:28 BronzeKnee wrote: Check out the performance difference chart Aligulac has, probably the most ignored and misunderstood tool we have for balance, because who wins a tournament really doesn't matter much. Fruitdealer and Nestea won GSL's when Zerg was very underpowered. It's actually people like you that understand it the least because you think it actually contains useful data. Aligulac ratings are inherently wonky. ByuN being the best player in the world? Please. I mean maybe, I love ByuN, but that's probably just an artifact of his tournament participation more than anything. That graph will tend to return to the mean given sufficient time. You can have an absurdly imbalanced period over a long time and eventually everything will look just fine. Then what happens when we release a patch that balances the game? A massive correction would show up as ratings start fixing themselves. However you would interpret that as imbalance. We're very grateful David Kim doesn't balance the game as you would. If in the face of glaring balance problems people started switched races en masse and a race all but disappeared from the highest level tournaments as long as aligulac showed ~50% win rates you would be standing at the gates of Blizzard, chart in hand proclaiming that all is well, like a starcraft developer version of Baghdad Bob. Aligulac has been used to defend periods of imbalance in the past, like blink in hots. It is not something to be used as the end all be all of balance. You have to open your eyes to things beyond win rates in an arbitrary aggregate of games. | ||
Poopi
France13023 Posts
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
On January 26 2016 17:35 Pandemona wrote: rather it was 10 + 10 to light imo. But oh well, lets see a nice start  To what end? What unit would benefit from that? The only one I can think of is the Hydra. For every other Light unit the Adept overkills tremendously. | ||
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
On January 27 2016 16:31 _fool wrote: Do people realise that single digit ZvP win rates would require Z to win 91 out of a 100 games against P? It seems farfetched. People? yes. THIS PERSON^ No, | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
I hope the next patch focus more on solving some design issues with the game and to make mech more viable by doing the following: 1. Remove tankivac Tankivac has destroyed TvT. Positioning means little now and doom drops are too dominant. This change would balance mech vs bio. 2. Make Ravagers armoured. Since tankivac are gone both bio and mech needs an alternative for countering ravagers. Making ravagers armoured make both tanks and marauders work against ravagers. Plus it makes stalkers better versus Ravagers making it easier for Protoss to take a 3rd in PvZ. 3. Give Tanks a bonus damage vs shields. Bonus damage vs shields is the best way to improve mech in TvP without making tanks too strong in TvT or TvZ. 4. Nerf Air Decrease Liberator ground damage. Decrease BroodLord damage. Make Tempest cost 6 supply. This change makes it easier to move out with mech instead of having to turtle if opponent switches to air. 5. Improve ground units anti-air Make Hydras do bonus damage versus air. Make Thor do the same damage vs all air units. Ground battles with some air support is much more interesting to play and watch compared to mass air battles. I think these five steps would make mech viable. They would improve ground mech and decrease turtling since you would not be forced to turtle in your base if your opponent go mass air. Mass air balls would not be viable since air would be weaker and ground anti-air would be stronger. You would still need to expand a lot due to how the LotV economy works. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20345 Posts
2. Make Ravagers armoured. Since tankivac are gone both bio and mech needs an alternative for countering ravagers. Making ravagers armoured make both tanks and marauders work against ravagers. Plus it makes stalkers better versus Ravagers making it easier for Protoss to take a 3rd in PvZ. Void rays too. It's funny that phoenix's and oracles are better to spam when you have early stargates vs ravagers. Also kinda odd that ravagers lose the armored tag in the first place | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 27 2016 23:56 MockHamill wrote: 2. Make Ravagers armoured. Since tankivac are gone both bio and mech needs an alternative for countering ravagers. Making ravagers armoured make both tanks and marauders work against ravagers. Plus it makes stalkers better versus Ravagers making it easier for Protoss to take a 3rd in PvZ. We give adepts -1 damage vs light. So -4% damage vs light. You know, we want to keep changes reasonable, right? We only have problems with certain rushes, not as much with the the unit, right? We want to have the unit still viable, so we introduce a patch that should change 2 early game shot relations, but after some upgrading everything will be back to normal. Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo, onwards we go to the ravager rushes: +150% damage from immortals +100% damage from marauders +66% damage from voidrays, +166% damage from charged voidrays +66% damage from unsieged tanks, +43% damage from sieged tanks +40% damage from stalkers ... Sounds fair, only the ravager rushes are going to be affected by that, right? And the patch after we deal with 2-3rax reapers: barracks cost doubled. Won't change terran at all, that's only gonna affect that specific rush.  | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20345 Posts
We give adepts -1 damage vs light. So -4% damage vs light, -2% damage on average. You know, we want to keep changes reasonable, right? 1.5x less dmg against marine, scv in the parts of the game where they were considered powerful -- If Armored ravager doesn't work then stats can easily be changed. That's a design thing (should it be more vulnerable to X units and less vulnerable to Y?) rather than a final statement of balance. Right now it's a little weird to see Ravagers way more vulnerable to zealot/phoenix than immortal / VR. More vulnerable to marines than marauders assuming they stay alive. | ||
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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
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Killmouse
Austria5700 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
EDIT Lets make that Lair ^_^ | ||
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