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Bareleon
371 Posts
On January 18 2016 06:27 Sapphire.lux wrote: How i wish Terran had that ability. A supply free, soft ground control unit/ability would have synergized perfectly with mech. Stasis wards are useless. Just send in one unit to activate it or just use detection. Even changelings when they take the form of one of your opponent's units activates a ward... | ||
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PEPE!!
44 Posts
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On January 18 2016 00:01 Bohemond wrote: It's really shocking how many people are posting in here with an attitude that seems best summarized as: 'I just don't want to have to play against mech.' Well, I just don't want to have to play against DTs, Oracles, Mutalisk harass, any proxy play ever, Reaper all-ins, Cloaked Banshees, all-ins in general the disrupt the build I planned to do while the game loaded up, or people with red hair. So goddamn it, none of those things should be viable! As has been mentioned and linked many times in other threads: there are lots of great mech games in SC2 despite the fact that it's rarely played. Mech being viable would add diversity, which most people agree is desirable. Would Zerg players be happier if they could only go LingBlingMuta in TvZ and never build Roaches or Hydras? Perhaps my memory is poor, but I seem to recall there being a push during the early days of HotS to make Roach/Hydra more viable. Wasn't there a speed upgrade added? Does anyone doubt that the people asking for Hydras to see more play would have felt somewhat bemused if a ton of people started posting about how they hate Hydras, they're sick of hearing about Hydras, sure Hydras are an iconic unit in BW, but this is SC2, that Hydras shouldn't be viable because they just don't feel like playing against them? And there is an extremely negative, borderline abusive tone to some posts in here, talking about how sick they are of this topic even being mentioned on these forums. No one is forcing anyone to click on this thread or post in it, so why does it matter if it's brought up? Is it a general practice of these people to go around the internet and tell other people not to talk about things? Do they do this in real life? Why would anyone care what people who they don't know are talking about? He might mean that the tank sucks as a unit, which is true. Pretty much all of its strength in LotV comes from the medivac and its BS speed boost ability. Also, just because people build a unit doesn't mean it's good. People made tanks in WoL TvZ nearly every game even though it sucked because they had no other option. it matters if it's brought up in this manner because we're all part of the community, and this stance is nothing particularly new even regarding new and improved wording. i'm sorry, but if you load up ladder and hit 7 terrans in a row, half of them being mech, you typically hate playing vs the mech portion of games. you see planetaries, lines of turrets with tanks, and it all feels a bit cancerous. there is a massive difference between not wanting to play against the 'style' (which makes for the longest games if they ever take off) and having to account for an all-in. nearly all the strategies you posted save for 2 or 3 rax reaper are all going to die to earlier pressure or having an ebay up in time. what you need to prepare against a mech style is to form an entire game-plan around it and play an entirely solid tactical and macro game as the non-mech opposition. the learning curve is quite higher. this is the same guy (not verbatim) who complains about mass tempests. how is it even likely that a protoss gets to the point of 4+ stargates pumping nothing but tempests? | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On January 18 2016 06:27 Sapphire.lux wrote: How i wish Terran had that ability. A supply free, soft ground control unit/ability would have synergized perfectly with mech. And dropped from the hellion via an upgrade. It would slow down pushes by the opponent so that the mech player could get more into position. As one or more people have said on this thread, it's not just that tanks were viable, it was tank + vulture + vulture mines that made it viable. Currently, terran is missing that fast, light unit that can help give map control (in the late game as opposed to the early game) EDIT: On January 18 2016 06:59 PEPE!! wrote: Give thors Yamato cannon. All air problems solved Actually on second thought, just put this on the hellions. Now they can really deal damage. | ||
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Phattyasmo
United States65 Posts
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Zanaxal
5 Posts
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ThunderBum
Australia192 Posts
So if we buff tanks and add stronger AA, this gives terran a wider timing window to move across the map to get work done. Buffing mech shouldn't be about letting terran sit behind +2 building armoured PFs and turrets all game long, it should be about enabling the terran to move out before it is too late. With the LOTV economy model a mech player will be more spread out and thus also a motivator to move out on the map to get damage done so they aren't just sitting back and expanding into losing. Every race needs to have ways to beat a meching player who isn't attacking though. If playing passive is the correct option for both players, the game will be boring to watch and boring to play. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On January 18 2016 08:33 ThunderBum wrote: So when I think of buffing the tank and adding a goliath like factory unit, I try to imagine how it creates more action for both players. If tanks are stronger and mech has better anti-air, why bother moving out if you can simply just get more and more mech? There has to be reasons for moving to the other side of the map or terrans will just split the map and trade cost effectively to victory. Tech switches are what encourages terran to not wait around. All of the races needs to have a unit composition that beats any mech composition, to threaten the mech player into not waiting too long to be countered. Air control and air siege units do this. So if we buff tanks and add stronger AA, this gives terran a wider timing window to move across the map to get work done. Buffing mech shouldn't be about letting terran sit behind +2 building armoured PFs and turrets all game long, it should be about enabling the terran to move out before it is too late. With the LOTV economy model a mech player will be more spread out and thus also a motivator to move out on the map to get damage done so they aren't just sitting back and expanding into losing. Every race needs to have ways to beat a meching player who isn't attacking though. If playing passive is the correct option for both players, the game will be boring to watch and boring to play. The whole point is to counteract this the other person could just mass expand and get a huge macro lead, like in Broodwar. There's so many reasons why I could say Map Design in SC2 causes turtling to be a problem, but the amount of times I've repeated myself and it's fallen on deaf ears I'm not sure I can make a difference anymore. Maps where you can barely leave your main and defend 3/4 bases are not good. Fighting Spirit is a good example of this as the third, while relatively close to your main is defendable by a small ramp making it hard to push up, but pushing up there and then pushing the main at the same time is a good way to break a defense. Maps where there's a big ramp to the third, but it's right on top of the natural and the whole army sits in one place and defends all three bases. It's why Ohana was an inherently bad map and pretty much destroyed map and game design in SC2. Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom and Ohana all suffered from the same issue, you could defend too many bases from one choke, there pretty much was no reason at all to ever leave your bases and it wasn't even remotely hard to split the map. Map design in LOTV is getting a bit better (with further thirds with chokes and what not), but the map design causes turtling to be a problem, not mech itself. | ||
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On January 18 2016 07:26 nanaoei wrote: it matters if it's brought up in this manner because we're all part of the community, and this stance is nothing particularly new even regarding new and improved wording. One could make this exact same argument about what Seed did. Everyone paying attention has known that Adepts were a problem in TvP since the beginning of the beta. Seed's stance is nothing particularly new. One use this same line of reasoning to discredit people complaining about HotS Swarm Hosts. Every single complaint about Swarm Hosts after the first one was 'nothing particularly new.' On January 18 2016 07:26 nanaoei wrote: i'm sorry, but if you load up ladder and hit 7 terrans in a row, half of them being mech, you typically hate playing vs the mech portion of games. you see planetaries, lines of turrets with tanks, and it all feels a bit cancerous. there is a massive difference between not wanting to play against the 'style' (which makes for the longest games if they ever take off) and having to account for an all-in. nearly all the strategies you posted save for 2 or 3 rax reaper are all going to die to earlier pressure or having an ebay up in time. what you need to prepare against a mech style is to form an entire game-plan around it and play an entirely solid tactical and macro game as the non-mech opposition. the learning curve is quite higher. First off, great players die to cheese and all-ins all the time. It is not as simple as 'having an ebay up in time.' Come on, man. Second, I'm sorry you don't like playing vs. mech. I actually hate playing vs. Terran (don't like to play mirror match ups in any game, not just SC2). I actually especially hate playing vs. mech in TvT because the games last longer. I'm disappointed every time I see that bird in the loading screen. Life sucks, then you die. Just because I don't like something, doesn't mean other people should be allowed to have it or that other people shouldn't be allowed to talk about having it. | ||
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terrantosaur
42 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On January 18 2016 08:56 Bohemond wrote: One could make this exact same argument about what Seed did. Everyone paying attention has known that Adepts were a problem in TvP since the beginning of the beta. Seed's stance is nothing particularly new. One use this same line of reasoning to discredit people complaining about HotS Swarm Hosts. Every single complaint about Swarm Hosts after the first one was 'nothing particularly new.' First off, great players die to cheese and all-ins all the time. It is not as simple as 'having an ebay up in time.' Come on, man. Second, I'm sorry you don't like playing vs. mech. I actually hate playing vs. Terran (don't like to play mirror match ups in any game, not just SC2). I actually especially hate playing vs. mech in TvT because the games last longer. I'm disappointed every time I see that bird in the loading screen. Life sucks, then you die. Just because I don't like something, doesn't mean other people should be allowed to have it or that other people shouldn't be allowed to talk about having it. you're talking about yourself as though you're putting yourself in my shoes and placing words in my mouth. it's obvious enough what you're trying to do. to address the point you were making though, it is as simple as making an appropriate e-bay timing. 3:40-4:30, drops occur from all races for all openings of every type. why? those are the appropriate times for necessary tech for those harassment units. they're understood timings, such as when zergling speed can complete off a 17 hatch or a pool-first. this is another reason why people can open aggressively with reapers, take a later expansion behind a factory/starport, and potentially defend against any drop harass using a cyclone. the timing just works out and is understood by many. +1 infantry lines up nearly perfectly with stim research, guess what, this timing is used extensively as well and people can get creative with that sort of knowledge. about seed speaking his mind, it is something new, because he's an actual professional who plays the race he's talking about. if anything, it can hold extra credence for those reasons alone. he spoke out in the largest esports tournament for sc2 at the moment and after his games, not in an offline talk. i am not saying i don't like playing vs mech at all, but it's definitely harder than playing against the regular bio-tankvac composition if you're not used to the crazy amounts of static D involved. mech is both a playstyle and a unit composition involving overall slow units. specific units or all-ins involving said units are risks and investments that are in fact countered by appropriate and simple solutions. if you've seen polt on his daily streams, he plays in an unnecessary way against zerg and loses more and more to units such as mutas whereas other terran have appropriate solutions to deter that muta situation from even happening. there is a reason why most of his losses involve mutas and why his opponents make them against him at some points in the game. and stance meaning, there are literally tens of these threads by the same few posters restating the same points. go back and take a look, with the exception of this latest one, every one is an update of a previous attempt to bump the overall topics or suggestions. unironically, each time i've suggested the same thing as well: do your own testing and go through private channels, or do something more extensive if this is incredibly important to you. honestly, posting on a forum (although it is TLnet) isn't going to net you anywhere near the exposure you need to make a change to the multi-million dollar system. | ||
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16445 Posts
On January 18 2016 09:35 terrantosaur wrote: I really hope the powers-that-be at Blizzard at least take the time to read and consider Avilo's post. I doubt very much whether anyone on the planet (certainly outside Korea) has a much experience of playing mech with Terran. He regularly streams for 5 hours+ a day and has done for ever. So, whether you love him or hate him, it is at least reasonable to conclude that on this topic there are very few people who really understand the nuances of the high-level Mech play as well as he does. i think the best terran players in the world with much faster APM see the game totally differently. i'd prefer Blizzard balance the game at the very top level first while keeping all 6 match ups fun. with that as their #1 priority then they can deal with lower level players as a secondary concern. so i don't think ignoring this stuff would be much of a big deal. i recall Avilo screaming blue murder when Greg Black nerfed Vindicator Bombers. Avilo claimed Vindicators would become suicide flyers. Avilo claimed he understood Allies at the very top level of play. Furthermore, that he possessed knowledge no one else did. This suicide flyer thing never did happened. Vindicators remained in their nerfed state. Greg Black was proven 100% correct and Avilo was proven wrong. It made the game better because Allies was just too air-centric. Ironic that we're now debating the other side of the air-centric argument a few years later. | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic610 Posts
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Solstice245
United States145 Posts
On January 18 2016 13:24 SC2BF3Love wrote: i agree but just buffing tanks without tanking into account other units from terran will be bad... in BW tanks were desing like that because Terran was supposed to be played Marine+medic+Tank support, but since in SC2 marines are so GOOD, imagine marine+medivac+tanks buff? that will be a really strong army composition. Higher tank damage will also mean higher splash damage, so friendly splash will be a increased issue for marines when fighting melee units. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3709 Posts
On January 17 2016 14:15 Bohemond wrote: As PB is now, it can wipe out most of an air army in a couple of seconds. Huge numbers of units dying in a handful of seconds isn't something most people want more of in SC2. Uh, uhm, well actually that's exactly what I want. Armies melting in seconds because of risks taken, control mistakes, or one player being too well prepared or too smart, that stuff makes my heart beat faster. Oh the destruction and the shock value! I'm jumping out off my seat because I can't take it!! To balance this out, I also want the the little skirmishes and the finesse. A good portion of games should also consist of poking, threatening, positioning, surrounding, or constant reinforcing of the main army in a long-lasting battle. We have both right now. I think it's great. To the main topic: I have an issue with this thread. It's not clear to me what the end goal is. Is balance the issue, or is it diversity? Do we just want to see more mech? Or do we think terran is too weak? I think we need this to be clear, because it's not the same thing. Also, it's very difficult to fix one without messing up the other. It really is really difficult. How I see it: Lets compare for a moment. In BW TvP and TvT we (virtually) never saw M&M. We did complain about that for a while a long time ago, but eventually we accepted it and made the best of it. In TvZ we rarely saw (successful) mech and it was the same issue. We didn't like that, but we accepted it. And then fortunately a few gods of terran turned things around in TvZ, at last. A mech transition became viable, not only in late game but also early/mid game. Sadly, TvT and TvP stayed the same. In ZvZ we never saw hydras and lurkers. I mean yes we did, but... nah. Not really. Don't get me wrong, this is no justification for not having a lot of mech games in SC2. I just want to put things into perspective. Making demands, really? That's a bit much. Give Blizzard a break. Every big change they make can potentially break the game for a lot of people. Big changes are risky. PS: I think ThunderBum and JimmyJRaynor made good points. | ||
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On January 18 2016 11:51 nanaoei wrote: you're talking about yourself as though you're putting yourself in my shoes and placing words in my mouth. it's obvious enough what you're trying to do. You mean it's obvious that I was trying to point out how absolutely nonsensical it is to criticize something someone said because it's 'nothing particularly new'? I didn't put any words in your mouth, I just applied the statement you made to other situations. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by: it matters if it's brought up in this manner because we're all part of the community, and this stance is nothing particularly new... If that is the case, I apologize. And, once again, defending cheese and all-ins at top level is not as simple as making a single building, knowing the timings, or even scouting it. Nor should it be. I don't know why you're making this claim, it doesn't have to do with anything and is clearly, at best, hyperbole. On January 18 2016 11:51 nanaoei wrote:about seed speaking his mind, it is something new, because he's an actual professional who plays the race he's talking about. if anything, it can hold extra credence for those reasons alone. Top Korean pros of all three races have said the exact same thing in interviews that Seed said before Seed said it. That makes it - drum roll please - not new. On January 18 2016 11:51 nanaoei wrote: but it's definitely harder than playing against the regular bio-tankvac composition I will say this for you: At least you're honest about your motives. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On January 18 2016 09:35 terrantosaur wrote: I really hope the powers-that-be at Blizzard at least take the time to read and consider Avilo's post. I doubt very much whether anyone on the planet (certainly outside Korea) has a much experience of playing mech with Terran. He regularly streams for 5 hours+ a day and has done for ever. So, whether you love him or hate him, it is at least reasonable to conclude that on this topic there are very few people who really understand the nuances of the high-level Mech play as well as he does. The guy insult David Kim on weekly basis and plays the worst possible games from their perspective, there is not a single chance that his ideas will be brought into the game. And please, yes he plays only mech, but at very low level for pro standard. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On January 18 2016 15:20 Magic Powers wrote: First, a response to this: Uh, uhm, well actually that's exactly what I want. Armies melting in seconds because of risks taken, control mistakes, or one player being too well prepared or too smart, that stuff makes my heart beat faster. Oh the destruction and the shock value! I'm jumping out off my seat because I can't take it!! There we (and I think many others) then have a fundamental disagreement. I don't believe a single error (if you can even can call it an error) should in seconds cost you the game after 20 minutes. There are many other strong AOE spells, but generally just pressing f2 and moving back will at least mitigate the worst of it, not amplify the damage. Which still gives the opponent an advantage, as it should be, but it does not directly end the game. | ||
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